mcplumeria

I would just like to add a few comments ...first of all, to each of you who say "well just because your marriage" was a disaster, turned into a hel_l, or whatever, "doesn't mean all marriages do" because I am happily married, etc. I NEVER said, ALL anything. But your ONE experience does not also mean that "ALL Thai marriages are paradise" does it? But you seem to want people to think that. Okay, well I want people to consider, THINK about the negative, not something people like to do in the heat of the moment, the passion, the new found love, and joy.

However, I have yet to see a poster on this forum, or any forum, describe how they got divorced from their Thai man, while they were financially dependent on the man, and where they had a child, and explain how that worked out well for them. (Remember I am talking about couples living in Thailand, and under Thai law, which is the key here.) I have yet to hear of ANY woman, married or otherwise, who got citizenship or PR here.

Some of you seem to be saying, because your ONE experience, is better then my ONE experience, you are RIGHT, and I am WRONG. I would say, we are equal. Except that those of you who are still in your marriage, really can't comment on how you will turn out, if and once you divorce, because that hasn't happened yet. Most of you seem not to have children yet, and those that do have children (but have not commented on this thread) seem to mostly be currently living in their Western country, working their ass off to support their kids, Thai spouse, and can't really afford to come back to Thailand because equal schooling (i.e. international schools) are way too expensive for them to afford, especially once they are all earning "Thai level money".

And I would like to remind everyone, that not ONE of you, has actually gone into the benefits of marriage to a Thai man, while you live in Thailand, and have a child. Anyone can discuss this, because one needs only logic and to know Thai law, and understand Thai culture, in order to explain what those benefits might be. You should know, that I saw this OP, and didn't respond immediately. I thought about it, felt that if I ended up discussing my personal experiences, I would be flamed, it wouldn't go over well, in general, I didn't really want to reveal that I am a woman, because I have noticed that that will probably be used against me in all posts on this website, that I will somehow end up with less credibility on every subject area of this website. But I felt sort of guilty, to stay silent. Now had the OP described her life, as she has since done, I would not have felt too worried for her.

There is one big cultural difference I have noticed in Thailand, and that is that many Thai men, seem to ask foreign women (or all women?) to have babies with them. I think some women might fall victim to misunderstanding. Having a baby, to me, is MORE then getting married. It is a life sentence that you will have to deal with this person for all or most of your life. I happen to think, that Thai men don't give a dam_n, and somehow feel more macho, or feel they will benefit, because they have a baby, more so with a farang. I am not sure why or what, but it seems that men often ask this rather quickly here. Where Western men are scared shitless of having children. Do you think that could be a difference of law, and enforcement of law, and obligations that exist or don't exist? A Western man knows he is going to be paying for his kid. Usually quite a lot as a percentage of his income. A Western man doesn't see his children as his retirement plan. A Thai man might think he won't be paying anything, yet have a retirement plan. I mean, why should they, would they pay ...when you earn $5000 a month, and they earn 20,000 baht for example. They also know their kid can go live in the farang country and earn a lot more later.

In my case, my ignorant spouse, thought he could just go to the airport, and show his marriage cert, and then fly to my country, and work, and make tons of money, while he left me and the child here in Thailand, to be supported off my passive income. Of course he never told me this before, and I seriously doubt he would earn more then he does in Thailand, but anyway, why would I marry and have child, and in my case, be financially independent, and then be okay with my companion leaving for years on end, to work? Don't even consider that any of this money would benefit anyone other than him. My spouse thought it was perfectly acceptable, that my passive income is fairly large, however my plan to live in Thailand was that I would be able to save most of this money. So, if we or HE doesn't have enough money, I should spend all that I have, AND go get a job, and take care of the kid 100% of the time. I should be willing to be earning nearly $100K (USD) a year, yet I should live, and my child should live, like some pathetic hilltribe women live, in order that HE can have the lifesyle he wants.

His mother didn't understand WHY didn't I just pay off all his loans? Loans for property, that he rents and earns from. I should just pay off 6 million baht, because I have been dating him for a few months? They wanted a baby, to "take care of him when he is old". Although we had plenty of discussions about how much work a child is, how expensive it is, he just agreed with me, yes, yes, yes, that is the only answer Thai people give, no matter what they really think. Then after having a child, my spouse told me he made a mistake, he didn't understand how much work a child was!!! When I said, but we discussed this SEVERAL times, I TOLD you that, the answer was akin to "well all farangs are stupid, don't know anything, Thai people never listen to what we say, and well I had to do it to please my parents" who also give him a lot of money all the time. My Thai spouse is in his late 40's, should not be a total idiot, yet IS clearly, a TOTAL idiot. He earns plenty of money to have a nice life here, but can't manage it. He is currently out looking to have a child with someone "new" because he sees that this hasn't worked out for him. He tells me if he has another baby, he won't be able to afford his current kid, even though he doesn't really pay for our current kid.

Seriously, if this man could control everything, my kid would be in free government school, we would be eating nothing but noodles, we would not have a single toy or book, nor internet or satellite TV, nor aircon, and he would only come home to pick up the clothes I washed and ironed for him, on his way out with new ladies. He would be wearing an all gold Rolex, driving a deluxe European car, buying $200 bottles of whiskey every night, going out for lobster, etc. I am not just being sarcastic here, this is how he manages to live, with the large benefit of being able to claim "he never has money" and "other people are always buying these things for him."

And to the poster who said she doesn't want child support, because you make so much more then him (him being 20K baht a month) I would say that you should get whatever you can, and save it for your child. Who knows what will happen in the future? Why should his kid be free because he married someone who earns so much more? Would his kid be free if he married a Thai lady? What if you are unemployed at some point, disabled from some medical condition, or you die? Even if it is only the 3000 baht a month, take that and save it for your child's university education. Why in the world would you consider it none of his responsibility? Why in the world would you consider it all your job to earn the money, do all the care-taking, all the work, and he has no responsibility? What will happen if you die? Your kid cannot control the money. If you think it is great that he takes your child to the zoo once a year, or buys a birthday gift, you have seriously low expectations, which might explain why you feel happy about this situation.

This is a culture that believes men are superior to women, who believes they are the head of the household, who believes they can have several wives, while we can only be with one man. This is also a culture, that as a foreigner, they might one day throw you out with trash that they think we are. You, by not taking any child support, are teaching your child that men don't need to be responsible. When she/he gets asked to support your Thai man as an old man, is he/she going to say "why? you never paid for anything growing up", is he/she going to expect her husband to pay for things, or expect his wife to pay everything?

I don't really care HOW much the Thai man earns, he should be paying something for his child. Yes, okay, if he was in a car accident and is disabled now, well maybe not. But you are living in this Thai world where the man is everything, let him contribute. The way it stands now, I am sure your ex-b/f or husband would be perfectly happy to have 5-10 kids with you, and as well some Western men too, if they thought they could get away with that.

Well I must say I am rather shocked how upset some of you are and there are again, some personal attacks going on. I guess all Western ladies are not the femi-nazis men here like to say we are. Thank you to Carry for explaining more about your life, you seem to be set up fine.

Banana Leaf, you keep quoting partial sentences as proof of my ignorance and bigotry, when I have fully explained, for example, what situation would make a person feel powerless. I did not claim "all Thai marriages" will do this to a person. Some of your proof, is just ridiculous. It is true that "most Thai people don't have a lot of money." Why don't you look up the per capita GDP figures, or some other numbers, that will give you a way to understand that, without feeling personally insulted?

It is usually NOT the case, that a Western man from our own countries, will easily escape child support payments. Some might try, some might play games like quiting their job, but in the end, they will usually not win that war. A person CANNOT claim bankruptcy in regards to child support or spousal support.

Another poster, writes that she doesn't get child support because she makes so much more money then her Thai man ...something I mentioned is common Banana Leaf. Common, mostly, doesn't mean 100%. But she also said that I didn't need to put up with the safety issues, like she doesn't because she is always there to stop them apparently.

I mentioned that having children in cross-cultural marriages can be extra stressful. This is one area that many farangs and Thai's disagree about, safety everything. My Thai man doesn't like to be told anything, the fact that I ask for a helmet to him, is an extra reason not to wear one! I am not with my child every minute of every day. Some of you might have learned that Thai people don't like to question/make suggestions/put their foot down, with elders, especially parents. So when your Thai grandparents are sitting in the front of the car on with baby grandma's lap, they REALLY don't want to say anything. When you insist, there is conflict. They seem to really not believe or not care, that sitting in the child seat is better. However the best I could ever get, is that people leave with my child, whatever way I say (in the seat, or with a helmet) and then as soon as I am not around, they revert back to whatever they want. My kid ALWAYS arrives home without the helmet, or sitting in the front seat.

Some people, even women, think that they don't want/don't need to be married, for a variety of reasons. Oprah Winfrey has discussed her feelings about this subject, and since she has never been married, I guess her viewpoint, isn't coming from a "bitter, resentful" place based on her bad past marriage. If you like to be married, then get married. But it is good to know what your obligations are as well as the benefits. Marriage is a legal contract.

Thailand is not known for enforcing laws well, or for a lack of corruption. We do have a helmet law, how many people wear a helmet? The fine for thowing a cigarette on the ground is 2000 baht (and this is not a country known for environmental protection practices) yet the fine for beating your wife is 500 baht. Does that make you feel particularly valued as a woman? (Now, please refrain from saying I just said, "all Thai men beat their wives" in the next post please.)

It is sort of funny that a few posters offered me a compliment for taking care of my child, when they seemed to think I was a man. Yet I can't say anything positive has been said in support of me, my life, my child, my views, even though some seem to think I was a victim of abuse. You don't have to agree with my views but some of you seem to seriously dislike me for speaking about this, and have made a lot of rude assumptions about me. I guess the "sisterhood" must be a myth, or doesn't apply unless you agree to comply with the "normal" viewpoints? I think that is sad, sad, sad.

Well so far, I've been told that "I assume everyone marries poor Thai people" been called ignorant, and a bigot, and now "I am assuming that all Thai people are a certain way".

While I did write my post in a gender neutral tone, I thought it was fairly obvious that I am the foreign mother, married to a Thai man.

Yes, I believe IF you are a foreign man, there are some beneifts to being married or legalizing your child. IF you are a foreign woman, have a child with a Thai man, I think it would be best if you can control the situation, whatever way you need to, so that you have the freedom to leave Thailand with your child, if you want/need to.

I gave detailed reasons why. I would appreciate it, if people want to defend the other side of the argument, to also list the reasons, not just call me some names and bug off.

I don't think ALL Thai people are anything. I think you often find out what/how they are, when it could be too late to protect yourself. Since there is no test that I know of, where you can find out what/how they are or will be in 5-10 years, I suggest maximum caution. My Thai person changed drastically and immediately, once he thought he had gotten all he was going to get from me. After I bought a home, after we married, after a child was on the way. That was too late for me to change direction!

And by the way sbk, if you and I were to meet for a coffee tomorrow, and you said something that offended me, so then I grabbed a brick and smashed it over your head, and knocked you out ....what would happen?

A) nothing, police would laugh it off as a cat fight, or B) I would get a ticket for 500 baht, or C) something much worse would happen to me legally?

Well if your husband does this to you, I think the answer is A or B. How is that "more protection because you are married"?

(Well I tried to put a letter B there, but it keeps turning into this smiley face)

HI SBK and Sunspun,

Well first of all, I am not assuming everyone marries a poor Thai person. A poor person doesn't have assets to hide. A poor person here, won't be able to afford to support a non-working farang wife and child and himself, in two different households, if they split up. A Thai who immigrates to a Western country with their partner, gets legal rights and protection. If your Thai husband decided to leave you he will have the legal right to stay in the same country as his child. He will have the legal right to work at any job he is qualified to do ...not just certain jobs. You can both have your name on property, businesses, etc. And lucky for you Sunspun, since he earns more then you, you will be able to get spousal support and child support (if you have a child) that is based on what he earns, not limited to 3000 baht a month. Your legal system will enforce this for you, in case he doesn't freely give it up. Since most Western countries are pretty serious about enforcing the payment of taxes, it is fairly straight forward to figure out who earns what, from where, etc.

However, if you are making your life in Thailand, the more educated and wealthy your husband is, probably means he will have the money, freinds, connections, power, to manipulate a lot of situations to benefit himself, if he WANTS to. I'm not sure how many of you can read Thai, but that is a big disadvantage for me. I wonder, Sunspun, if you think that if you were not married, but just living together, would anything be different? (I mean, let's say he immigrated to your country on his own before he met you.) Would he pay less of whatever he pays for now? You took on a lot of legal obligations by taking him back to your country, and I am glad it has worked out well.

Really I am just making this point: Foreigners who live here, and are married, and/or have children, we are pretty dependent on the goodwill, the honesty, the duty, that our spouses may or may not feel, and to what degree they feel this. We are not treated equally under the law, in some important areas. We do not have our own Thai family and powerful freinds we have known since primary school, to help us. Even in our own countries, in past generations, women were not so well protected. My mother could not establish credit on her own, because she was a married woman, for example. So when she got divorced after 12 years, she couldn't even qualify for a credit card, even though my family (read father) was upper middle class. So anyway, if you are not able to depend much on the legal system here, and you just have to trust your partner, then I think you could trust your partner, exactly the same, without giving yourself any extra obligations.

Your Thai spouse could be a perfect human being, but maybe you get lonely and have an affair. Maybe that changes his feeling of obligation towards you. Anyway, re this OP, I have the feeling, that maybe neither partner is rolling in money, because the woman claims she "went back to Europe because she is pregnant" and wants to come back and get married AFTER she has the baby. That indicates to me, that she might be in need of the free medical care she gets from her country. I'm not being anti-Thai (other than I would appreciate the same legal rights here, as a Thai has in my country), I am being pro-women. Re the example of the woman who took her baby back for a visit and didn't come back, well maybe she would have come back, IF SHE HAD ANY RIGHTS in Thailand. Have any of you seen the movie called "Not Without my Daughter"?

How did I get these views? Well not all of us have perfect marriages. I have had the assets disappear. I have had to pay debts that I didn't know existed and didn't approve of. Debts that were not used to support my life. I had the upaid tax bills that I have to pay later. I have had my tax refund, stolen. Let's just say I had a rather ugly story before I came to Thailand. Now in Thailand, I have a half Thai child. I have been held hostage here due to passports issues. I have had the Thai grandmother, kidnap my kid from school and keep her for a month. I have dealt with the Thai part of the family (namely grandmom) think that she is the real "owner" of my child. She went to school and took her, when I disagreed to let her visit that weekend. Grandmom started a process where she called each Friday afternoon, and took my child to her house, all weekend, EVERY weekend, and I apparently am just here to pay the bills for the private schools, for the house, for the cars, for the food, clothing, and every other expense that exists. She didn't want to visit on school days because that was too much work to take her to school. I do all the work Mon -Fri, and then when the weekend comes, I can't do any fun things with my kid, because she is always visiting family. I was basically being treated like a nanny (but with the added benefit that I can pay everything for everyone.) The very first time I confronted this issue with Grandmom directly, she reacted with stealing my kid.

The way she cared for my child was very stressful for me. She didn't give a dam_n about any safety anything. If she was in my car, and my child was in the safety car seat, she would take her out. She took her everywhere on a motorbike, no helmet, no matter how many dam_n helmets I bought. I have two cars, no need for a motorbike at all, but Thai people "want to park close to whatever." That is not an acceptable reason according to me. She did not watch or supervise her in any way. My daughter was allowed to ride this little bike thing, at 2 years old, outside, anywhere, while Grandmom stayed inside watching TV. She got into a large road, like a highway, sometimes, and was returned by stray motorists, and Grandma thought it was funny. And it kept happening! When I took the bike away, she bought another one! She could play with knives, got scissors and cut up her hair several times, would play with medication found in Grandmom's purse, she would eat nothing but candy, coke, and crap. She would take my nice, imported clothes, keep them never to be seen again, and return her in 2nd hand rags basically, usually looking like a perfect little hooker. She bought her high heels, go-go boots, etc. If I called at 10pm at night, when she was 3, Grandma would tell me "she is over at the neighbors playing, she doesn't want to come home, what can I do?"

Do you want to know what I had to do, in order to get a passport? I had to pack my bags, get on a plane, and leave Thailand, pretending that I was finished here, didn't give a crap what happened (that was fake of course) and then negotiate that I would come back, AFTER there was a passport made. I was gone almost 3 months. Even though I pay for a very good private school, Grandmom was too lazy to bother taking her to school, most of the time I was gone. When she did take her, she was flithy dirty, probably was bathing once a week. She lost a lot of weight too. Since this time, and after the kidnap part ...I had to take legal action against Grandmom with the child welfare agency here. My daughter's Thai parent, is not poor, is a city person, attended some of the best schools here. Seems not to have learned a dam_n thing, ditched school half the time, cheated on homework and tests. My Thai partner has traveled for business to Europe, maybe 7-8 times. My Thai partner, constantly hides money from me, pretends there is none, ALL the time, has tons of debts, constantly transfers property to other family members to avoid creditors or taxes, or who knows what. One day is driving a $100K BMW, and after 6 months, is driving a 20 year old car, and back and forth. My Thai partner, must earn at least $60K baht in bad months, up to $100K a month during better months. This person sees no need to contribute to school (government free school is fine) so I pay. There is a constant list of excuses why my daughter doesn't need toys, books, or clothes. Guess what? My Thai partner offers to pay, 3000 baht a month, "when there is extra money". I have never known a Thai person to conclude, there is 'extra money".

Let me just add, that I didn't even want a child. I was BEGGED for a child. Every day, for several years. There was a lot of bragging about what a nice life could be provided for this child, how the grandparents want to give 20,000 baht a month to help pay for this child, etc. That was all total bullshit. All the cliches, happened, AFTER I bought a house, and a child was on the way. Immediately the all night drinking binges started, along with sleeping all day. The getting a lover on the side, right in front of my face, started too. The phyiscal attacks when I dared to "confront any issue." One time, I was sitting on a sofa, and quietly said, "I am starting to hate you" and you know what the reward was? I got knocked unconcious! My head was later swollen up probably double the normal size. I have also been strangled, and had a few black eyes. What else could happen after all this? Well when my Mother was visiting to meet her grandchild, I got a 11pm visit from approximately 10 police, who had arrested my Thai partner, and they wanted to search my home for evidence. Guess what else? There had been previous problems with the law, for serious crimes, but due to good old corruption, my partner has always gotten off, and got off again this time. Of course I had no idea about any of that, have to wonder why there was never any money, if along with legitimate business and owning many rental properties, there was ALSO a somewhat large income coming from crime. My BIL could not stop bragging and acting like I owed him, because he helped with the corruption. I hoped my Thai parter would go to jail.

I am not young, am well into "middle age." I am not anywhere near poor, nor is my family. I am not uneducated, I have a Ph.D level education. I don't do drugs, am not a drinker, am not any kind of criminal, and not running away from debts or taxes in my country. I knew my Thai partner for 5 years before this all happened. My Thai FIL was a high government official. My brother-in-law, is the director of one of the largest Japanese companies in Thailand, and claims he has MBA from the US, although I am not sure that isn't a lie. I am sure he lived in the US for some years, and had a son born there. The lowest "status" people in this Thai family seem to be some school teachers.

I have a fair amount of control over everything now. I went into this trying to keep some control. Most of my "control" comes from the fact that I have a lot of money, and have never done anything illegal, like overstay a visa, or teach English without a work permit. Would any of you ladies suggest I should stay here? I had hoped that I wouldn't need to tell all these personal things about myself, in order to have some credibility. But the very first poster, after I wrote, called me a bigot and ignorant. I think there seems to be a cutlure on the "ladies forum" where ladies never report ANY bad things about their life or marriages. When I read the stories, I see a lot of struggle. I see a lot of couples who really have no money, even when they are in their Western countries. I see women who are concerned and working towards getting citizenship for their Thai men, but I don't see that any of you have gotten this in Thailand. I see that most of the posters, have no children, or haven't had them YET. I have NEVER seen even ONE woman suggest that they are happily married, and their husband is totally supporting them. The women are working here, and working in their home country.

I will be leaving Thailand, with my daughter, and one of the best reasons is that if I die while she is still young, I can manage to plan a life for her, where she can use my money, to pay for good private schools, for university, or just to live off my money, however, if I stay in Thailand, I can be sure that my money will be spent on cars, and bullshit, and be wasted away, while she goes to free schools and barely survives, and is no better off then many other Thai girls.

I think you should go to Krabi. Pai is a total bore. Krabi is really beautiful, good restuarants, diving or snorkeling, etc. I've stayed at Duang Jai Resort, I heard they are having some special, really low prices right now. Krabi is like visiting Kauai in Hawaii, and Pai is like visiting a small town of 500 in Nebraska ...just to compare.

I'm sorry to offend you BananaLeaf. Are you married to a Thai man, and living in Thailand? Have you ever been divorced, from anyone? Because if you have, you might have discovered that the person you marry, and the person you divorce, tend to be two totally different people. Luckily the laws in many Western countries, attempt to take care of both parties, in some way we usually see as equal.

What benefits, under Thai law, does a foreigner get by marrying a Thai? Even the legal benefits one is supposed to get, let's say in case of divorce, are probably very hard in practical terms, to get. Some men, from everywhere in the world, make it a personal mission to hide assests, when they expect a divorce. This would be pretty easy to do in Thailand. Even if you get a child support order, there is, as I understand it, no enforcement. So, if the man doesn't want to pay, he won't pay. If you are depending on his goodwill, even in the case of marriage, then you could depend on that without marriage.

Since it is not illegal to kidnap your own child in Thailand, yet it is illegal in our home countries to do this, the foreigner is at a disadvantage already. I suppose since many woman stop their children from leaving Thailand, that won't be too difficult for a Thai father. I would feel rather powerless if the court forced me to stay in Thailand, if I want to be with my child, yet the court doesn't offer you any spousal support money, doesn't allow you to work, or you are unqualified to work here. Most Thai people don't make a lot of money. So I would say the chance of building up a big nest egg, that you get half of, is rather small. Even if you work here, lets say as many men here who need money, as an English teacher. Will you earn enough to fly home every year and visit family, to send your child to international schools, to buy one of the condos foreigners are allowed to own (with no access to credit), to have a car, to save for the future?

Okay, the benefits of marrying because you want to take your spouse to your home country, even then, what would those be? (Other than you must do this for the spouse to immigrate.) In most cases, the Thai spouse will earn less, so in that case you will be setting yourself up to pay spousal support, as well as splitting up any assets. I believe that a fair share of young woman these days, decide to have children, without getting married, even when the man is a fellow European or American or whatever, because they can get the child support checks anyway, or government help, etc., without the all the other legal entanglements.

I think coming here as a young person without independent means, or a good way of making a lot of money here that you can control, is probably a bad deal for most people from Western countries. Let's say you are 22. Are you going to be building up a credit history here? Are you going to be paying taxes to your home country, that will allow you to get all the various benefits we have (disability, medical, unemployment insurance, lower cost or free university prices, a pension, a job history?) My opinion isn't just about Thailand, but any other countries a young woman might be looking at, where the laws don't really protect her, and don't offer her any benefits, yet where she might be forced to stay.

Maybe none of this is a big worry for the OP. Maybe she is 38, has a lot of assets and investments to support herself, has a lot of life experience, and there is no chance that she won't be happily married here forever, no chance that her husband will die before her, she has a visa secured for life here already.

Hi Carry,

I would think carefully about getting married here if I was you. The benefits are probably only an easy visa, but there are other ways to get a visa. But the potential negative side is rather large. Since you are having a baby, I can assume you are young, at least under 40, and probably are not set up for life finacially. In many cases here, having a child with the cultural differences that exist, are too much for many couples. I would be thinking about your future, in the very long term, what will you do if you want to divorce? What happens if your husband is willing to stop his child from leaving Thailand? Even if he does pay you child support, can you live off 3000 baht a month? What would happen if you two split, you can't leave Thailand, are you in a position to support yourself and a baby for the next 20 years?

Even if you are a teacher or someone that can make a living here, is it enough, is it what you would want for your child? I mean, will you want international schools? Or is goverment school okay? Will you be earning enough to set aside for retirement, will you be earning a pension, or things like this?

Many foreign men who come to live in Thailand, and end up with a child, have gotten into difficult positons. They can't leave, the mother doesn't even want to care for the child, but leaves it with grandmom in some village, etc. But I think most of them, at least have the means to support themselves, to hire lawyers, to bribe the mother for custody, whatever.

I think that marriage with a Thai man isn't going to offer you much security financially, but will put you in a very powerless situation. Children seem to cause stress for the best couples. If your man is a good guy, he can treat you well and do everything for you and a baby, that he can do if he was married to you. But if he turns out not to be that great, he can cause you a lot more problems if you are married, then he can if you keep control of the situation.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for you nice, well thought response. I am happy if you can get some education here at Payap. I took some master's level classes there a few years ago, and found the school so incredibly non-demanding, the work I was given to do was so pathetically stupid, and since I have a graduate level education, I was really shocked how poor the program was. I felt totally scammed to be honest, and this thing I have heard about Payap being a place to "pay up" for your education or some joke like that seemed to be true.

I have been here long enough, that I look at everything with possible scam intentions and am absolutely sure, that no money, like this $500K grant, could possibly get spent, without corruption eating into a large portion of it. Not that if this money got spent in Haiti, the same thing wouldn't happen. However, I have learned that Thai people tend not to appreciate charity, they start thinking the person is stupid, and usually start treating a person worse, once they have your money, or feel they have the power now. That has made me feel especially NOT generous here.

For example, after the tsunami, Thaksin made a donation that Thai people seemed to think was ridicously generous. He gave $100K (USD). He is a multi-billionaire, he makes more then that every few hours of every day. But it seems like a lot to Thai people so they are impressed. Yet compare that to many celebs, who are nowhere near billionaire status, gave $1 million, and as well those people could not say they earned any of their money from Thailand, and had no special Thai connections. When we know Thaksin did earn his money here.

Or even to compare that, the billionaire PM, who donates 100K after this huge disaster in Thailand, yet the US gives $500K to make some ramps and minor adjustments to ONE school, in ONE area, to a school that I believe makes a profit? I think there should at least be some promise that this money will be used as intended, and disabled people will be able to attend at discounted or some kind of supported rates. (Something not supported by foreigners.)

Sometimes I think Thai people are just laughing at us. We come here and open schools, and orphanages for the HIV kids nobody wants, the hill tribe people, whatever, we start and manage the animal charities, we come and marry the bargirls, and buy them everything, we let Thais come to our countries and study, live, work, buy property, start businesses, and they let us do what? Nothing. And many Thai people spend a large portion of their days, talking about how we are all such stupid buffalo. I guess it does look that way!

But however, I am happy you seem to happy here!

Jingthing: I am not sure it is due to Americans wanting to be liked, as much as it is due to Americans honestly thinking they will be able to help. I think most Americans, can't even imagine the level of corruption that goes on in many countries, the level of corruption that the average person in these countries deals with on a regular basis. And regarding what bombing has ever been done, has America not spent big money on every place they ever had a war with? I don't know, I'm not a historian, but I believe the US has spent a lot, rebuilding Europe after WW2, rebuilding Japan, still spends money to support Korea, and the Viet Nam war? Aren't they now spending to try to build up Iraq? Well even if the US wants to give money to some country, seems like they could find more needy and worthy places. How about Haiti? Nobody is going to school there.

Sorry to pick on you Richard, but since you seem to work at Payap, I wonder WHY Payap is so grateful for this money? Could it be because some large portion of it will be skimmed off in some sort of fraud, and only a small portion will be spent on the real changes? (I don't mean by you, but by someone, many people in fact.)

Richard, I nominate you to help the poor disabled people who will want to go to Payap, but are unable to pay tuition. It is really quite ridiculous for you to suggest some other farang should pay for that as well.

Gee, if Payap is going to go after disabled students, why couldn't THEY, Payap, be the ones who pay, since they got the disabled access paid for as a donation??? What exactly makes them deserve this kind of charity? Knowing Thai thinking, it wouldn't be a surprise if they offer tuition at a premium price to disabled people, because they offer added value to those students.

Could donations like this, from other countries, be part of the reason Thai people thing farangs are so stupid? Why should some Americans care about some disabled people in a part of Thailand, and what educations they are able to get, when Thailand doesn't give a dam_n? It isn't that Thailand is incapable, they just don't give a dam_n.

There are people in the US who need educations. Who can't get educations due to a lack of money. Personally, I think we should start with ourselves. I hope there will be more then one employee of Payap who ends up appreciating this apparent waste of money.

Hardie, while I would agree with you that communication is important, please do not think that because some person can exchange words with you, that they are on the same wave length as you ...some Thai people seem to speak English, but they really don't understand a goddamn thing, I mean, they really don't understand a dam_n word of what you are saying, however, they will say "yes, yes, yes" in response. Real communication rarely happens here, due to cultural differences, assumptions, and the general state where Thai people try to please you, verbally, but do whatever the hel_l they want later. If you want to test my theory, then just try to build a house with your loved-one, or try to lay some tile, it won't take much to show your GLARING differences.

Of course then there is the question, does you wife do things you do not like, or did she not understand? For some big amount of time, you will think she doesn't understand. Then gradually, you will begin to understand that she DOES understand what you want, but that she just doesn't give a fuc_k. You will start to understand that the problems in your house are not due to mis-communication, but due to different ideas.

Well, whatever, try to build a house, try to have a child, there are several situations, that will make you see how far/how differently you think. But all the time, your lady will be saying Yes, yes, yes. There is no other answer in Thailand. Good luck.

Thank you Mr. Guest House ... well I have written a few other things on this forum, but usually get banned within a few minutes. The truth is not always your friend. However, the truth is the truth.

Like all things in Thailand, it is difficult to figure out what is going on, what is expected, what is considered stupid, etc, because most Thai people that you ask, will lie, for one reason or another. The very first thing that every foreigner should think is " am I getting told a lie?' And in almost every case, the answer is YES, even though that doesn't help you figure out what the truth is. I think it is generally understood that Thai women often get involved with men, any man, but especially farang men, because they expect to benefit financially. I mean, really, Thai people don't like us farang, they don't understand us, but they are trained from a young age, to agree with people who have more power. What a surprise, you meet a young lady, and she says she doesn't like Thai men, she doesn't even like Thai people, she LOVES farang, and we believe it, because in general, we don't like Thai people or Thai men. Thai people talk together, that is their major sport, hobby, education, and they learn things like Western men tend not to "box them". So then they say to us, that they used to have a Thai man, who "boxed them" and never paid for the kids, and drank too much, and we believe it. It might be true, but what we believe, that they will appreciate and love a man who does not "box" them, who actually pays his bills, who has some ethics and morals, well that just isn't the case! They do not usually think well of you/us, they usually think we are stupid.. And this doesn't have to be a love relationship, can be your maid. You pay more then Thai people do, and expect less work, and don't make her work 7 days a week, and don't wake her up at 10pm to empty your car of the shopping bags, and well we think she will appreciate this nice working atmosphere. But holy cow, she doesn't! She starts making excuses to miss 2 days a week of work, starts cutting down her 7 hour work day to 2 hours, starts washing other people's laundry in your machine, with your soap and water, etc.

Okay, well there seems to be maybe 3 groups of farang men here, 1) they will pay anything, get screwed, pay too much, 2) people who pay almost nothing, but brag about how helpful they are, how they have changed a whole family from utter poverty to the middle class, and they only spent $5 and their brain power to set them up selling "water, ice and cold drinks". They continue for maybe a decade to sleep with the lady, who they claim they don't pay, but taught to fish so they can support all the family. And they feel very good and maybe better then most, how smart they are, to get sex for almost free, and to get to help people out of poverty at the same time, and well a divorce would cost them many thousands of times more, you pay either way, etc ...a la Ian Forbes.

And well my third group, which includes everyone else. I have found that among Thai people, most ladies have land from their family, the man then builds the house, which insures some amount of something, because the man can't take the house off the land. But keep in mind, the lady has contributed. So after the man marries and had 2 or 3 or 6 kids, he can leave, but the house is staying put. Many Thai men seem too cheap, they wouldn't leave their lady if it cost them 5 baht, my GOD, that is a lot of money down the drain!! They just go get another lady and ADD to their life, but they don't just leave.

There seems to be NO situations, that Thai people will turn down money, so if their family member gets a farang, they will try to get money. And it seems to me, that very few Thai people will do a lot for their family, or very much. I think they use their family as an excuse to need money, but if you give your Thai person some big amount of money, let's say you decide to give them 50,000 a month, or more, they will not forward most of that to their family, even their own children living in the village. They will continue to send the bare amount someone can live off, like 2000, and pocket the rest, gamble the rest, do something else with it, I suppose the best thing is if they save it. Maybe the best they do, is build a house, but they consider that their house. And legally it is their house. Just check it out, you know there are ladies making big bucks, but how many Yais are there driving a BMW? None. How many international school are there in the village? None.

Well anyway, most of you farang men have decided to turn in your Feminazi women, and get a Thai lady. The Feminazi paid half the bills, sometimes more then half, did probably all the work, like a Thai lady will do, had an education, can keep up with you, etc. Now you want a rice farmer lady, and you have to pay, it is cheaper then one day of maid service in London, so what is the problem?? If you have a child together, you just have to change every single thing you ever thought about raising children, for example. You just have to ignore it when you find your wife steals money from your wallet. I have found it ridiculously less expensive to live in Thailand, once I started locking ALL money, even 100 baht, in a safe, all day and all night, every day of the year. It is not an accident that ALL Thai furniture has locks on every drawer and every cupboard. In fact I would suggest this, locking up your money, as the first defense against the recession, or the low value of your money. You will be SHOCKED how much less food and everything costs, when there isn't someone picking away at your cash!

If you need a reminder of what life is in Thailand, then I suggest people go visit the local guest house, around mid-day, when all the Western guys are treating their hookers to breakfast. You don't find Japanese guys, Chinese guys, Thai guys, paying for sex, then treating them like girlfriends. You do however, see many Western men, who seem to be confused about the transaction, who are nicer then everyone else. Maybe there is a reason for people to think we are stupid? I think we are generally just nice people, but that is not something that is respected here, so why do it????? The Op's question, how much to pay the MIL??? Do you really think Asian people are asking themselves this question? Do you ever hear about your lady's boyfriend from China who is paying 20K a month, the man from Korea who is paying something, the man from anywhere that is Asia? No, because Asians are used to have prostitution in their world, and don't lose their minds over a girl. You do hear however, about the German guy, the Swedish guy, the UK guy, the American guy ...usually all at once, and they are described as being stupid buffalo, and girls brag about how many ways and times they scammed them out of money ...often the man is sitting right next to them, then they also ask if I know any other farangs who might want them. Personally, I would think it would be embarrassing to admit I was with someone for money, but people here seem to think it is embarrassing to be with anyone, if they are not getting money. The most embarrassing thing, of this whole problem, to me, is the girls and their bragging about how bad they treat their boyfriend/ husband, how NICE the man is to them, and yet how they manage to fuc_k them over in every way a person could possibly think of. At first I thought the ladies were admitting their mistakes, as in "he was so wonderful, and I took advantage and lost him" but NO, it was "he was so nice, so thoughtful, so kind, so generous, he BOUGHT ME this, and that, and this and that ...( a never ending list) and he massaged me, and he took care of the baby, and I didn't have to clean, or have a job, or take care of the baby, and he did all the paperwork, and all the everything work, while I just laid in bed for 2 years, all I did was take yaa-baa, and other drugs, and my nice husband did everything ...and well when I kept threatening to kill him, he decided to go back to his country."

Anyway, it seems best if farang people want to pay a salary, because your lady is no longer working, but just taking care of you ...why don't you just decide how much that is worth to you, give that, and leave her family and all that, up to her? I assume that most of you are paying the lady's living expenses, she isn't paying rent, food, electric, and actually I know men who pay every single dime of the girls' life, then give them a salary of 20,000 baht a month, just to save. I know a guy who has been doing this for 10 years while he works for a 5 star hotel in China, she gets a hotel room to live in, all her food for free, laundry, maid, use of the gym, the pool, she is living like a queen and banking 20K a month, plus extra money for birthdays and holidays, etc. She is a short, chubby, dark girl from Nan, who would have no chance of this life otherwise. Then he buys her tickets to go to Nan and visit her family twice a year, while he whores around in BKK ...paying for that again. What a nice life! For all of you who think you could never have this in your home country, I am not sure. Maybe you could, if you were willing to part with as much money as you end up missing in Thailand, for whatever reasons.

Have any of you tried? Go up to a woman in London, and tell her you want to pay for her entire life, and her family, and see what happens. Tell her you just want to spend a few weeks a year with her, while you go work on an oil rig, or in Iraq, or whatever, and that you will pay for her to go to university, pay for a house in the country, buy her a car, etc, I think you will have more success then you might expect. And I doubt those ladies will be stealing cash out of your wallet, and coming up with sick buffalo stories. And they probably won't already have 3 children "living in the village" with Yai while they whore around BKK.

Hi OP ...well if you are thinking of getting a young girl to bear your child, I think you should do it. Then give the child to Grandma, because your lady is too young to care for it herself, and then you should go live with Grandma, and make her your mia noi, because your "lady" is too young to be in serious relationship with you, or anyone. Therefore, Grandma can serve more then one purpose, and your life will be great! Just have your lady send you all money from the bar she is working at, or the shoe factory, whatever, and enjoy! You will have an age appropriate mate, and as well an age appropriate mother to care for your child! You can even help! Later, your "girl" can be the mother to your grandchild and get her mothering in then. A great dysfuntional way to plan life the way that some poor people with no choices, decide to do! Hopefully you can share some of your first world knowledge and education with some of your decendents ...if you have that to share.