foolinparadise

Cheers Mikey,

You made some interesting points 'Only international school makes the child miss out on some very important knowledge I think'

I had some freinds who sent thier son to a bilingual school, They where a thai farang couple. it was clear they where never going to move back to the UK. so a bilingual was the only real choice. If i think i will remain in thailand permanantly i think it would be crazy to send him to a school where he misses out on Thai language skills. Like you said its not just the language. I would prefere he had European belifes and mindset, but he must also understand thai culture and its teachings if he is to remain in thailand and understand/interact with the people around him. another memeber also posted that he wanted to take his daughter to the US, but when he had made citizenship she decided she didnt want to go because she had grown up here, so no matter what i think is best for him he may not agree in the end and he may wish to remain.

'The law clearly says that a legitimization, once done, cannot be revoked' i think that is the point issan lawyers where also trying to make. They have also told me i can do this without my son entering Thailand if the mother doesnt contest of course, i belive she is going overseas to 'work' so that will be my opertunity. So i feel quite comfortable with the situation at present. I am not ready to enter yet but i will be before the end of the year, it seems that i have a very good chance of keeping my son with me in thailand. And at the end of the day if the court reaches a decision i dont like i wont enter with him.

Again thanks to all who have posted advice and information Mikey, Mario Scorecard etc. it has all been very usefull. I am sure i can get what i seek if i go about it in the correct way. I will be in contact with Issan lawyers again once i am ready to make the move, I am currently working offshore and travelling to Australia to renew residency, good to keep that option open in case thailand doesnt work out. Will post how it turned out once i am settled but that may be a long way off!!.

Cheers,

Dave. ]

[Thankyou 'score card' if figure when he is 18 i will let him make his own decisions in life possibly younger if he is mature enough, more likley to just advise him.

Thanks for your praise on trying to be a good father, but it's not all black and white, i did for a time consider giving my son up as there are many complicated factors, my working away from home a lot, my parents being old and there support comming to an end, him not being my biological son and perhaps resenting me later for not allowing him to see his mother. i have questioned what is realy best for him and me. which is why I want to move back to Thailand, probably not as good a place for him to grow up as the UK i personaly belive. I would just like to live somewhere that we can both be happy. i've been an expat many years and the Uk is quite a shock! i will try to do the best i can in thailand with education and activities and finding decent support for him while i am away but its not perfect. If it is likley that he will be taken to live in the village in Issan with a Thai education and being looked after by the grandmother he simply wont enter and i will remain in the UK with him :-( i am in no rush to get back though.

Thanks anyway. i have spoken to issan lawyers and they are a bit unsure of some things, they are checking up on stuff and have been very helpfull. At the moment it seems him not being my son biologicaly does not come into it if i legalise him and fight for shared or sole custody, my fatherhood or gaurdianship should not be able to be contested in the future based on DNA once a decision has been made is the impression they are giving me at the moment. This has not been clarified yet. i will post results about this when i know more for anyone else who is interested and belives they have a child they are not the father of.]]

I suggest to you live In SE asia but not in Thailand.

[That may well be the only option!!...will see.]

Can other members (perhaps Mario2008, who has given many members a lot of very balanced and very focused information for many years) can advise at what age can the boy make his own decisions in life.

Many seems to say it's 18 (in Thailand), others say it's 21.

For 'foolinparadise', maybe it's worth thinking about this as a hosizon. Or put it another way, can you and your son survive without living / visiting Thailand for some years.

My guess is that the answer is YES, because it's worth it! And it would provide a more stable platform to build an even stronger bond with your son and with your own family.

One point to consider though is his Thai language skills, but that can be achieved, there are language schools everywhere and it's not that difficult to find offshore Thais who are willing to help with practice etc.

I deeply admire your desire to be a good father and to make the best possible plans for your son's future. Best of luck to you both.

I suggest to you live In SE asia but not in Thailand.

[That may well be the only option!!...will see.]

Hi Mikey,

I see your point about the granparents ignoring the fact he has been given up for adoption and is infact still thier grandson. You are correct they would not let this stop them and sooner or later the mother would probably tag along too!. However it would still be very reasuring to know i am legaly his father and that he cannot be legaly taken from me. The police could be made to see this with the help of a lawyer i imagine, but it would be a problem if they showed up. I would of course 'change my mind' and never let them see him or visit once adopted, all contact would be cut and i would be safe knowing if i was found legaly only i am his father. No payments will ever be made once he becomes my son.

The idea of changing his name and entering as a UK citizen is interesting it would certinaly be hard/impossible for them to find him. might even be worth doing even if i do manage to adopt him. Yes if i choose that i would definataly have to think about who i told what, and cut contact with several people, the annonymous emails, so much to think about! i managed to find out she was back in thailand by paying a detective, So no reason why if i didnt change my name she couldnt do the same if she suspected. I may well be safe just cutting contact and moving there as she has abandoned him and doesnt seem interested, it's just not a chance i feel i can take.

Your right it is a tricky and slightly unusual case, it's good to bounce around ideas in here. I have contacted Issan lawyers, they have got back to me and said they have not had a case the same before but have had two or three with some of the same elements. they are looking into things. I hope thet can help out.

Thanks for the wishes, if i reach a conclusion i will post results on here for other members who may find it usefull if they are in the same situation.

Dave.

"However if i do ever want to live in Thailand he needs to be safe wich means her signing him too me" and "bottom line is if he at risk of being taken he wont enter thailand ever"

I still think that you and your son could enter and stay in Thailand long-term as British, but there are buts if it is to be safe to do

If the mother or grand parents (the Thai connection) ever find out in a case like that (entering as British), then I bet it is from friends of friends. If you change surname and get new passports and enter a totally new environment in Thailand, then the mother or the grand parents will never find out. With new environment I mean "no friends what-so-ever" who know the mother, Thai or western, including friends of friends. It also includes not visiting places that the mother would be inclined to visit. This cuts off all ways for the mother to find out that you and your son are in Thailand. It's not going to work if the mother has a contact point with friends of your friends / your friends (or you except via email) or vice versa. The child should be able to get a student visa without problem, what you would be able to get I don't know. I suggest posting in the Visa forum and ask, you're traveling a lot so shouldn't pose a problem with 3 month visas. Pressure from living like that? What we make it ourselves I think. Statistically, we're probably talking about a zero, a comma and as many zeros as can fit on a paper followed by a one.

Adoption sounds like a long shot, what's the benefit of the mother agreeing to that? Except a million bath cash. "if they do adopt him to me they can visit him in thailand?" True that the grand parents probably mean enough to make the mother do what they want unless she is too lazy but I'd worry that the grand parents wouldn't stop once they can visit. The perception of the law (in the eyes less educated and people of an elder generation) is not strong enough to be a deterrent. Besides, would there maybe be pressure on you to provide money? And you have already written that the mother is all money, that she let's you adopt the child will not mean that she won't still see herself as the mother, why should it? It's only in legal terms that it would change and she, as mother, would have no reason not to press for money, in her eyes. Try telling her – It's not your child any longer… Try telling her – You have no visitation rights… I must ask myself: Why would a legal signed adoption change any of the mothers obviously bad attitude?

I wouldn't expect a legally signed adoption agreement to change a personality…

I don't know, tricky case this. Whatever you decide to do, good luck

Sorry to say this, but if you are having a baby and you are genuinely worried about whether it's yours then you are not with the right woman, or she is not with the right man, whichever. I don't doubt that these things happen everywhere in the world but I think deep down you know yourself if you can trust your wife or not.

You didn't actually mention if you are having a baby, are you? or is it just a general question to wind up the members and invite the inevitable sarcasm?

'I think deep down you know yourself if you can trust your wife or not.'

I knew deep down i could trust my wife 100%, before i met her i had lived in thailand many years and she was not a bar girl. Turns out i was wrong!! Not my kid at all i find out after she abandoned him with me when he was two years old. I didnt see it comming, none of our freinds or family saw it comming or thought we had anything other than the perfect happy family. You may think you know, truth is you never do untill it goes wrong, and its easy to juge other peoples relationships, ive done it myself. I never thought i'd end up a candidate for jerry springer that was other peoples stupid mistakes!!

very easy for u to make comments that sugest people should know better.

Hi,

I'm a brit who's done a bit of spearing in OZ and Thailand. I am off to Koh tao on 20th of may for 3 weeks. If anyone fancy's doing some spearing get in touch. I've speared there before and it's been ok. Local fisherman takes me out. Also som good spots of the rocks. Various fish. Could share the cost of a boat, not that its much, local fisherman are fair about how much they want.

Cheers

Dave

I meant to say Koh Kood!!! LOL not Koh Tao!! anyone fancy it just message me.

Dave.

My dad says a boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money

...and the Brits told me a long time ago: "The BEST boat is your friend's boat"

LaoPo

Here's another one paticularly applicable in thailand.....'If it Fly's....Floats...or fuc_ks......RENT IT!!!'

It seems to me that aside from the logistical problems of taking care of your son, one of the biggest continuing mistakes has been contact with the obviously, blatantly, irretrievably no-good mother.

Surely at this point it is evident that no good can come of your contact with her. Stop giving her information of any kind. Assume that any contact from her is a bad sign. Try to change your phone numbers; maybe a move would be good.

Also, until your son's status is cleared up and his mother is safely ignorant of where you are- I would stay out of Thailand.

Good luck to you, because it is clear to me that your son's best interests are with you.

Hi Ijustwannateach,

Yes there is some truth in that, somtimes best to just cut contact except the situation and move on. However if i do ever want to live in Thailand he needs to be safe wich means her signing him too me. Maybe that should be done through a third party. If nothing i signed and i cannot get cooperation then yes continued contact is not productive. Thanks for you wishes...i'm sure i'll figure somthing out, right now i have my son and he is safe and happy, so thats good

Cheers

Dave.

Who knows that you are not the biological father? Who knows about the DNA test except you? If no one, then a cheap and pretty fool proof option would be to forget about that DNA test. You do love your child and have all the right feelings anyway. How to make that a safe option?

The agreement you and the mother have written will not stand in a Thai court. There is a reference to a Supreme Court decision applicable to your case in the custody article that IsaanLawyers wrote (the link to the article is in one of the pinned topics of this forum). Basically, the Supreme Court ignored an agreement that the parents had written because the father never had legitimized his child. Out of this, we can read that agreements regarding custody are a legal and valid option first after the father has legitimized his child, you have not according to Thai law. Nothing is 100% certain but I would not dare to trust that paper in Thailand.

What you have now is a Thai birth certificate where you are named as the father. You should be aware of that the day you enter Thailand with your child, you enter an environment where the mother has sole custody and you have no rights or obligations to your child. Still Thailand is an excellent choice, it's cheap to live, yes, you can find a good nanny who helps and takes care of the child, the child is half Thai and living in Thailand will help in that connection. Perfect. Just the question of custody.

If no one in Thailand knows of the DNA test, then I would: 1) file a missing persons report in Thailand about the mother immediately and 2) arrange to go to court to get legitimized. This is more or less a formality and not difficult. If the mother shows up then the maximum she will get is less than 4,000 bath per month and Saturdays and Sundays. Live somewhere where it's a bit difficult to get to and be hard on not giving the mother a single bath over legal minimum and she won't have the incentive to visit anyway. If the mother doesn't show up, then you'll be legitimized and get shared custody easily. If the mother doesn't show up, then you can fight on and eventually get sole custody. Unless the mother contests that the person she herself named as father actually is not the father. But what does she have to gain by doing that? Would she? And wouldn't you have the same problem if you wanted to adopt? If the mother does contest, then you're in for a difficult time in Thailand. Only way is to adopt and get the mother to sign. You can become guardian regardless but mother has to sign in that case too (unless she doesn't show up, but then it's better for you to just legitimize your child).

If you expect mother to contest that you are father, then I'd think carefully about entering Thailand with my child if I were you. You have sole custody in England, don't you? If you don't, can you get it? I would consider changing name (both first and surname of child and surname of father), then enter and live here, both of you as westerners. A bit more difficult with visas for both of you though but the mother won't find out and the child is already a Thai citizen and can always "wake that up" anytime he wants to in the future. You may have problems living here with a Thai child but not legitimized and no mother. International schools would maybe want guardians signature and they would know that you are not legal guardian. Saying that though, there are many Thai children growing up to become an adult without a legal guardian, mother abandon, father takes care, father signs and that's good enough. Now, this may not apply to international schools and expensive hospitals, I don't know.

"i am worried however that if i ever buy land in his name or his mother finds out we are in thailand she will try to sell his land"

What's the mothers goal? When trying to anticipate what she will do, we need to understand what makes her tick. Does the mother have any interest in keeping contact with the child, ex money? Or is it only money, money, money … I think that adoption is going to cost you a lot! And you admit that you actually have no rights to your child by wanting to adopt. Hoping to get the child and your rights back again when/if she signs on the dotted line. That scares me

Court to get legitimized then? She will find out that you're in Thailand so she'll want money. Any chance of finding out if she's abroad? She will have to get back to Thailand and go to court or you're be legitimized and get shared custody in her absence (time extended to 6 months). The police report about abandonment that you should have done a long time ago is very important. If you are a good father and have some evidence of unsuitability on the mothers side, then you should be able to get Monday to Saturday morning and mother gets legal minimum (a hundred bath per day or so) in a Thai juvenile court. But what if mother comes and contest that you are legal father... Court would order DNA test and you're out of luck.

What does the mother have to gain by contesting that you are the father? Would she do it?

Question 2: A good nanny is possible to find, yes. You want one long term, could cost 15,000 bath per month for a good one

Question 3: Would mother or family find out: Not likely unless from friends, totally change environment and only way would be a letter sent to the childs tabien baan (house register). A school or a hospital could do this but it's a pretty long shot I suppose. I don't think that you can go on and live in Thailand without original birth certificate of your Thai child forever though.

As always, time works in favour of the one who has possession of the child. Be the best father you possibly can and the child will help you. Missing persons report is important I think.

Hey Mickey,

Thanks very much for the comprehensive reply....It's given me a lot to consider and made me aware of how things work that i didnt know. The mother does know of the DNA result, and she new already i wasnt the dad. I shot my mouth of in anger without thinking about the DNA result!

The only real problem is the granparents want the kid and i think she would try to take him just to please them. They are in denial about thier daughter. I think u have made me realise i need to legitimise my son first of all! but can i do this without risking bringing him into the country if i come alone? as like u say i have no rights to him untill i am legitimised. She may or maynot show? She may well be to lazy to bother? hard to say?

i will also file the abandonment police report like u sujest. I think she will contest everything unless i make a large payout wich i wont on principal having lost enough money (i'm just stuborn!). I will do all i can without my son entering Thailand and see if i can convince her to adopt him to me in the mean time. The granparents want him maybe i can convince them if the mother doesnt adopt him to me they will never see him again, and that if they do adopt him to me they can visit him in thailand? maybe i can use the fact the granparents seem to love him and are interested? bottom line is if he at risk of being taken he wont enter thailand ever!

Thanks for the tips mickey its given me somthing to start working on. Not heardback from Issan lawyers yet, but hopfully they can help broker a deal with the family?

Cheers

Dave.

Just thought it might be worth taking the kid to a private doctor if she beats him again.

At least that way it's documented. you should be able to keep it confidential if u have a word with the doc once the boy is out of the room. Tell his son he's just making sure he is ok and it doesnt get infected or somthing so it doesnt get back to the mum your starting to document stuff.

Good to have paperwork should u need it in future, i've kept everything even though the mothers not interested at present.

I have been through a similar experience to your freind. My wife however was nice as pie for 5 years, an absolout pleasure to live with. Then like flicking a switch she changed.

She abandoned her son, who i Later found out was not mine. She stole our savings and ran off to Thailand on holiday with her new boyfreind.

We where living in Australia, she mistakenly thought she had been granted permanant residency the month she did this. She hadent, and i cancelled her sponsorship and turned of the money!! What a pleasure that was!

I hope your freind has the sense to leave the relationship, most of us dont even when stareing at the obvious we deney it and make excusses (i know i did, after my wife left i would have done anything to get her back after i calmed down). I dont think he should stay in the relationship even if this child does turn out to be his. He should also think practicaly about how hard it is bringing up kids alone and how he will manage it especialy in Thailand. I was unable to do it alone in Australia, not through lack of trying.

He should definataly start documenting things as mario says (Covertly Tape/Video arguments if possible, not sure this is legal?) and take financial precautions and he should keep this to himself. He will have to be as devious as his partner.

People dont change, we are what we are. he should start planning the break up now and test the child at the nearest opertunity. i would have probably stayed with my partner had i know our son wasnt ours, but it would have been a big mistake.

I was left with our son with no choice, if she had taken him i would have fought to get him back...but now i have him and i am faced with the reality of bringing this child up alone (let alone 2 or 3 kids) I wonder if i would do it the same again?. The realities of doing it are different. Your freind has a life to lead too, maybe he should also consider cutting his losses? I have thought about it i am ashamed to say, and i feel guilty but am going to do the best i can for him.

This is just my emotional advice after experiencing somthing similar, most people cant be told i know i couldnt at the time...but he should get out of there with or without the kids, and plan it well before he does...dont let her know whats comming. I was devious and i managed to trick her into signing our house back to me. Tell him to look at doing whatever he can, house in kids name?

Wish him the best of luck and i hope he can salvage somthing from this. Tell him to think carfully about fighting for two kids that arent his, somtimes u just fight for somthing but then once you have it your not sure u want it. I sound terrible, i love my son, but it gets very complicated.

Dave.

Sorry i dont have any legal/practical advice, i am just starting to look at my options in Thailand legaly as i need to return to thailand with him to live. It's going to cost me $500 000 baht a year for schools alone, plus nannies etc. as i have to work away, then i will still not know if he is safe leaving him with a paid stranger, he will mis me terribly and he is in for a rough time. Is he best with me? Hope it works out for your mate.

1. Since you are not the biological fahter and not marreid to the mother you can either adopt or become the legal guradian. With adoption you would have establish legal family ties to the child, as legal guardian you don't and your legal invovement with the child ends when the child becomes of age.

In case the guardian ship papers were not signed in Thailand, it might not hold up in a Thai court. But you have high changes, as the mother abondend the child in your care. If you can back-up your store with evidence a Thai judge will not look favourable on her.

2. depends on the nanny and how often you will see the child.

3. Land (property) in he childs name will be protected by the court. The legal guardian can't sell or lease land of a child without prior court permission.

Money in the childs name is something else, it can be used. But only for the benefit of the child itself (education, food, clothing etc).

Hi Mario,

Thanks for your reply, it is very encouraging to know i may still be able to gain guardian ship of my son even though i am not the Biological father. I have decided to contact Issan Lawyers mentioned on this site. Also reassuring to know any property put in his name cannot be sold. I do have proof of her abandonment of her child and proof of many other unsavoury actions that make her an unfavourable mother. Hopfully I can put some sort of protection for both of us in place before he travells to thailand.

Thanks for your response.

Dave

Hi All,

I am after some advice regarding adopting my son. I have read many posts and not found anyone in quite the same boat.

I am a UK citizen and live in the UK with my 3 year old son.

I will give a bit of background that is relevent and try to keep it brief!!

I started a relationship 6 years ago in Thailand with a regular Thai girl, she became pregnant and when our son was 6 months old we all emigrated to Australia to start a new life. I work offshore. I came back from a trip working offshore just after my son's second birthday to find his mother had 'done a runner' with all the money, but not our son luckily. i made numerous attempts to try to get her to return to Australia and help raise our son, but she was just not interested. She signed a document for him to stay in australia with me as the sole gaurdian. Unfortunatly i could not look after him in Australia whilst working offshore and we both had to move back to the UK to get support from family.

I was never married to his mother, but i am named on the birth certificate and my son has dual nationality in the UK and Thailand.

Whilst in the UK raising my son with the help of my parents his mother said she wanted to help raise him and come to the UK. i made her a visa to come to the UK and try and help out as my parents are old. She arrived but imeaditaly disapeared to london and started working as a prostitute, she never visited her son. The only reason i mention this is to emphisise she is in no way interseted in her son. she is now back in thailand permanantly and we have no contact. i have accepted my son will never get anything posotive from her.

This last eppisode with his mum realy got me thinking i had no idea who this woman was i had spent the last 6 years in a perfect relationship with and it prompted me to do a DNA test, it turned out i am not actually my sons Biological father.

I am unable to keep working in my job and looking after my son in the Uk as my parents are getting old. I have no support in australia and i do not wish to give up a well paid offshore job. i find the UK mundane also. I wish to return to thailand and raise my son on my own. I have looked at the cost of private education in an international school and having a nanny to take care of him, it all seems within reason. I feel i can do a decent job of bringing him up in Thailand on my own.

i am worried however that if i ever buy land in his name or his mother finds out we are in thailand she will try to sell his land. she has already left us in situation where i had no money and was unable to go to work and she still asked for money from me knowing we had nothing. I worry if i bought land and put it in his name she would surley try to take it or take him as a means of extracting money from me.

My questions are:

1. As i am not the biological father can i still get sole custody and if i can can this decision be overturned if she states i am not the biological father? She may cooperate in signing somthing for money, i would prefere not to do this if possible.

2. Has anyone had any experience of leaving there child in the care of nannys for long periods of time? is it safe?

3. If i arrive in thailand and enroll him in school, or register land in his name or go through immigration is there anyway his thai family will get to know of this through a paper trail or the athorities?

4. are there any pitfalls i am unaware of that i have not seen.

basicaly the mother would only ever be interested if there was a financial gain and she is completly unfit to be a mother. I have been putting my son in a private nursery in the UK and had also been planning to send him to boarding school in either the UK or thailand when he is old enough. All i want is to know is that he will be safe when i am away and that legaly I can be the sole legal parent responsible for him and that if i do put anything in his name can it be taken from him?

Any comments greatly appreciated

Dave.