datum

A post linking to an article with questionable content has been deleted. Along with the replies to it. Posting a link to an article is the same as actually posting the words.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

The post was mine and I understood after a message from a moderator that the content of the link (not my comment) that I posted might cause legal problems to the forum owners if it can be related to violation of LM law. I respect Thailand and it's people and I accept of course the LM law since I've choose to live in Thailand. To make things clear I've had no intention to post something against this principle; I just didn't realize that the content of the links was questionable according to the Thai law. And I didn't realize this because I am not used to censorship.

I do not want to cause any problems to the forum but at the same time I refuse to start self-censoring my posts. This is why I’ll stop posting in political threads of the Thaivisa forum. Censorship (including self-censorship) is for me one of the most undemocratic practices.

Since this is my last post in the political threads of the forum I want to state something. I joined this forum to learn more about the conflict in Thailand. I’ve made some conclusions for myself and I learned things here. As you have probably see in my posts the concept and practice of “free information flow” is for me a life guiding principle. I do not know the deeper causes of the political conflict in Thailand and I am very in-experienced with Thai history and Thai politics to support one of the two “groups”.

What I know though is that the last three months the censorship of information in Thailand is increasing exponentially. Hundreds of web sites have been blocked and they are blocked every day. At the same time it seems that there is a prevailing opinion from many members in this forum that “only government endorsed information should be available to the Thai society”. I am sorry but I have to mention that this opinion was the opinion of a well known infamous "minister of propaganda". If Thai society in its total will adopt in the long term this opinion then only bad things can happen to the Thai people. Maybe in some years China will be a paradise of free information flow compared to Thailand.

As I’ve said do not expect any answer if you make any comments on this post. I’ve promised to the moderators that this is my last post in the political threads of the forum.

Good night and good luck.

A rather long post before I go to bed; actually a continuation of my previous short post which was based on the following story:

Today was my first day to the office after 2 weeks absence. I was on a business travel abroad, I came back on Tuesday and the office was closed until yesterday. My day was really hectic and I was working like a machine the whole day. Before going home I decided to invite my Thai colleague for a cup of tea (he is not drinking alcohol) in our company’s cafeteria. We work literally back-to-back the last 18 months and we make good company. We have both a high level of formal education and I appreciate his moderate style. We’ve never talked politics before but this afternoon I dared to ask his view over the situation.

I left him to talk for about 10 minutes without any interruption and to make a long story short for 9 out of the 10 minutes he was trying to convince me that the current government is the best thing that Thailand has ever had and that the current PM has been the most progressive PM that Thailand ever had. The other one minute was about the evil that is called Thaksin. I thanked him for his views and I replied with a very short comment and a question. I’ve told him “OK, I really do not know the political history of Thailand and since I trust your opinion I will accept that the PM is doing his best under the circumstances but since we both work on information systems and knowledge management can you explain to me why this progressive PM and his government has banned so many Internet sites and he is controlling so much the information flow?”.

Parenthesis: Why I asked this? Because for me the right to free and non-censored information is a FUNDAMENTAL right of democracies and an absolute necessary element of progress. I work 20 years in the field of knowledge management and I’ve learned that free information makes GOOD! Always! Even if free includes exposure to extreme and radical positions from all political spectrum. Democracies will not control information; they will just educate people so they make sure they use the information for good reasons and they reject the “garbage”. End of parenthesis.

At that moment something happened that made me to regret my “stupid decision” to start a political discussion with a Thai colleague. His face became red and his reply to me was the following: “Oh I see, you are supporting the others. I was never expecting that you are a red!". I politely told to him, “I am sorry maybe I didn’t make myself clear, I am not supporting the reds I am just asking something that it is related to my field of expertise, my interests and my work and I am really interested to know your position”. Fortunately he didn’t continued his argument that I am a red but for the next 15 minutes he was trying, extremely unsuccessfully, to explain to me why in Thailand only government endorsed information should be allowed and why censorships is a democratic practice. I have to admit that after the first 5-7minutes I was not really listening to him because the same arguments were repeated continuously. After this I thanked him for his opinion (he never asked my view) and we wished good week-end to each other. I was deeply disappointed because this was not the opinion of an uneducated extremist. It was an opinion of a very well educated conservative person. I was disappointed also in a professional level (for us free access to information is the backbone of our business) but this is another story. In any case I am really sad when I see this opinion to be so widespread in Thailand. I really believe that only bad things can happen to this country if this opinion will finally prevail. Maybe in some years China will be a “paradise of free information flow” compared to Thailand.

Good night.

while on the subject of videos and media, anyone see this major major gaffe by CNN? Ought to cause quite an uproar. Her inability to pronounce his name correctly is bad enough....

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vide...ilence.cnn.html

you might need to proxy serve it, just read that it has been either removed or blocked?

It is blocked. Can anyone explain what is this about?

How is it that immigrants have come to Thailand from India and China etc etc without higher education or money and have achieved success in the same system some say oppresses them, the poor. To boot Indians usually lack the magic white skin color so prized, promoted and marketed in Thai society, and still succeed. Try to find a single Chinese immigrant family anywhere in Isaan that is still poor.

It seems there does indeed exist a culture within many thai farmers that is counter productive in helping them have a better life.

Just for your information, this type of though is the ultimate form of fascism. To think that people due to their specific origin/location/occupation (Thai farmers in your case) have elements that made them counter productive is the kind of though that has eliminated millions of innocent people all over the world (American Indians, Armenians, Jews, etc.). Keep with this mind and one day a big dictator will seek your advice (if this is not already happening).

Interesting article:

Thai soldiers shoot unarmed man outside gates of temple refuge, then shoot monk trying to retrieve the body

Funnily, you quickly concluded that Thai soldiers shot them. Don't forget that army is not the only guy with the guns.

1st: I just used the title of the article as appeared in the first source (Reuters). this is not my conclusion it is the "Reuter's" title

2nd: Read the article, you will see that it says it was the military that shoot. For the media (and for un-biased thinking people) military is the army

If you have a look at the countries in the world with the biggest income inequalities between rich and poor (using the UN Gini index, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...ncome_equality), you will find that places like Namibia, Brazil, Venezuela, Guatemala, Ecuador, and the Dominican Republic all come up much higher on the list then Thailand. And yet, strangely enough, nobody in those countries is burning down all the banks, shopping malls, and places of the rich. Thailand and Cambodia are actually pretty close in ranking, not to mention culture, geography, etc. and if you have ever been to Cambodia, you can easily see that it is far far poorer than Thailand, and that the PM there and his elite cronies are living in golden palaces and doing little to help the downtrodden (in fact making policies to ensure they stay this way). A friend of mine made the cruel observation once that "it seems on some days that in Cambodia, every guy without an education is a moto dop driver and every girl without one is a prostitute." And yet despite the poor majority being completely disenfranchised from the rich elite, the Cambodians dont seem to be burning all the institutions down in Phnom Penh (and if anyone should know about cruel dictators....). I see some young ladies in Bangkok that work in 7-11's or as domestic servants for a paltry 2-300 baht a day, and yet others choose to work in bars instead. Take a bit of responsibility for once, burning down a bank or bombing a department store is not going to get you democracy or justice, it is going to get you a prison sentence or a rapid cremation ceremony.

First you need to correct the wikipedia link because it points to a wrong page. The right link is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...income_equality

Second, the Gini for Thailand is no longer 0.42 (Wikipedia data) but it is now about 0.53. The big problem is the the index is worsening than getting better (while in Brazil, Venezuela, Guatemala and Equador is getting better; I don;t have data for Namibia). Look what a UN report of 2010 is writing about the Gini coefficient in Thailand:

"Since measurement began around 1960, income inequality in Thailand has tended to get worse. The Gini coefficient rose from around 0.4 to over 0.5. (0 represents perfect equity). According to some theories, worsening inequality is to be expected in the early stages of development, but should be reversed later – at first, only a few benefit, but later others catch up. That has tended to be the pattern in neighbouring countries with fairly similar economies; but in Thailand, the worsening trend continued until recent years."

Third: all of the countries you are mentioning they've had extremely bloody upraises due to, among other issues, inequality and lack of democracy. I mentions some of them:

Guatemala: It was in civil war until 1996. Over 200.000 people were killed in the civil war.

Venezuela: what should I mention here? The October 1945 revolution? The Pérez Jiménez dictatorship? The April 2002 killings?

Equador: The 1966 attack on the Central University in Quito and the dictatorships between 1960-79 count?

Brazil: What about the Revolutionary Movement of October 8 against the 1964-1985 dictatorship?

I just wanted to challenge your "facts" and not your opinion about the Reds so I'll stop my post here.

Interesting article:

Thai soldiers shoot unarmed man outside gates of temple refuge, then shoot monk trying to retrieve the body

explaining more or less the Nations post:

Nine bodies found in Pathumwanaram

Sorry can someone confirm this? Is it illegal to have google as proxy server?

Normal rules here say not to talk about proxy because it always gets into a lot of weird things. Don't by pass a government blocked site is the law. No illegal use of a proxy and its not the use of a proxy that is illegal. clear as mud. Most proxy like google they can still trace back to you anyway if they like, so just don't do illegal things and relax.

OK, I think I get it now. I can use google proxy as fas as I am not py-passing blocked web sites. But if I use google just because the proxies of TOT are slow as donkeys I have no problem. I hope it is not illegal to say that the TOT proxies are slow as donkeys

I just got the same and it's a bit concerning. Not that I cant live without FB, but info control under any circumstances is a slippery slope. Skyping my friend in China to see how to skirt the block, but not sure if I can be bothered...I guess the reds and Taksin cronies dont tweet? Twitter is still up and running...

Some solutions:

www.unblockfacebook.ca

www.tor.org

Google for proxy server

It's illegal in Thailand and punishable by jail. Welcome to Democracy.

Sorry can someone confirm this? Is it illegal to have google as proxy server?

The interview of this professor was indeed very good. I am trying to spot it in the CNN website but I can't. I wanted to post it here. I think that the Reds will not stop and although I do not think that separatism movements will emerge I am not at all sure that we have seen the last act of this drama. We see today a major act but I am sure that it will not end. I see two possible outcomes in the long run: 1. The Reds are disorganised and the current government can pass it's agenda and do whatever they want. 2. The Reds learn from their mistakes (use violence to respond to violent government) and they find new means to fight.

His name is Thitinan Pongsudhirak and I think that everybody should listen very carefully to his proposals. I wish that both the government and the Reds will think seriously what he says. It is quite impressive to see that Thailand has so moderate and clever academics but is also quite a pity to see that nobody takes their advices into account.

There is now talk that the north and north east may start to push for a seperate state.

This thing has only just begun!!

Give me a break

Let em split it up between Kampuchea and Lao. Then Thaksin can fight his buddy Hun Sen over it.

I was referring to a quote made today on CNN by a professor at Chulakorn University.

The interview of this professor was indeed very good. I am trying to spot it in the CNN website but I can't. I wanted to post it here. I think that the Reds will not stop and although I do not think that separatism movements will emerge I am not at all sure that we have seen the last act of this drama. We see today a major act but I am sure that it will not end. I see two possible outcomes in the long run: 1. The Reds are disorganised and the current government can pass it's agenda and do whatever they want. 2. The Reds learn from their mistakes (use violence to respond to violent government) and they find new means to fight.

I don't know why every organisation be it CNN, BBC, Amnesty is against THAI VISA keyboard warriors....

It is not every organization my friend. Only those who distort the truth. Can you honestly say from your heart that the reports from CNN and BBC coming out of Bangkok are not biased towrard the red movement? I suppose you have seen them. If not then a reply is not warrented.

In all honesty I do not understand why they do not report both sides of the story here but they simply do not. It is all sympathetic to the red cause.

Well, according to the experts here, BBC, CNN, Amnesty International (Nobel Peace Prize on 1977 and UN Prize in the field of Human Rightin 1978) and any major independent organization are distorting the truth! This behavior really show how pathetic people can be when they see everything through their yellow or red distorting glasses!

Good night guys (and gals I assume).

It's true the Kingdom of Thailand is more than the current governing coalition, there is an opposition party and of course there is the monarchy. ..............

And also an army, a supreme court, an election committee, an attorney general, a constitution, and other institutions yes? (sorry if the names are not exactly right, I know that these institutions exist but I do not know their formal name). And if I've understand well all these institutions have been established through a long democratization process. So again, collapse of government doesn't equals collapse of state.

Yes, but I wasn't speaking about a collapse of government, you were. I don't believe that is the insurgency's aim. If they were after democratic change they would have taken the deal they agreed to and later reneged on. They are clearly after something else.

I still don't see the threat of State collapse. Yes the whole issue about the deal and the negotiations doesn't make sense but I assume this is one of Thai "specialties". I don't know and I can't know for sure the background of the deal and I would agree that was extremely immature for the reds that they were not giving a clear answer but then look at the response! Instead of leaving their movement to fade out the response is snippers!

It's true the Kingdom of Thailand is more than the current governing coalition, there is an opposition party and of course there is the monarchy. ..............

And also an army, a supreme court, an election committee, an attorney general, a constitution, and other institutions yes? (sorry if the names are not exactly right, I know that these institutions exist but I do not know their formal name). And if I've understand well all these institutions have been established through a long democratization process. So again, collapse of government doesn't equals collapse of state.

99 pages and no solution.

LOL that's good, I like your sense of humor at this difficult hours. You should have been a good facilitator on negotiations!

Its a valid study you cite but what it doesn't say is that the current government is the only government ever to attempt to redress this inequality in a sustainable way. It is the fear that it may have some measure of success (and it already has) that leads the fuedal power elite (who will be diminished by the welfare state) to fund this conflict and use their propaganda to rally largely peaceful yet ignorant supporters, together with a much more malevolent force to halt political change. You came to the board the other day talking about political solutions and those will still be possible, eventually; but that's not where we are at today. Today there is a battle raging for the survival of the state from foreign based aggressors.

I think you missed on important point of my previous report. Here is what I wrote:

I do believe also that there are many "flowers" in the red and yellow group. And by flowers I mean average people that they have some beliefs and they want to fight peacefully for these beliefs. I am sure that if it was in their hands democracy in Thailand would have been better. At the same time I do believe that both the red and yellow groups include many garbages; garbages that have one and only objective: To stop any process for more democracy in Thailand. They have of course different reasons for not liking democracy but obviously both of them hate democracy.

Yes, the ruling class doesn't want any change. But I am not convinced at all that the current governing coalition is not part of the problem. I am not convinced at all that the governing coalition has a sustainable plan to end the conflict and I am not convinced at all that the ruling class is not behind many of governments decisions.

Excuse my direct style but I do believe that your comment on the "survival of the state from foreign based aggressors" is a bit melodramatic and it is there just to create and impression. I do not believe that the Thai State is under threat. Is the current ruling political coalition under threat? Yes it is, but the governing coalition is not the State. The State is the set of institutions and goes well beyond the government. You might say that if this government collapse then there is going to be chaos and the State will collapse also. Theoretically this is a possibility, but you know something, I think that a State that has gone through 15+ coups and many bloodsheds has nothing to afraid from the possibility of a collapsing government.

I want to explain why I joined the forum and why I am posting here. I try to learn more about the political situation and I try to have various sources of information. I follow the international news channels (usually in the Internet because I do not like TV) everyday, I but both the Nation and Bangkok Post, I follow some blogs of people I trust and I talk to my colleagues in the office. I wanted also to follow a forum of people that they live here and i found the thaivisa. ......

Sir,

I do not know how long you have been in Thailand. Certainly on this forum there are people with an in-depth knowledge of the situations and they do know the roots of the current events. Also numerous Thai friends are posting on this forum. you can notice we have different opinions, we learnalso from each other. We cannot answer you simply because it will take hours -even days- to explain the accumulated factors driving to those historical moments. I will just give you some very rough axis of researches.

First the Thai Culture (Asian/ Budhist) very different from the Christian/ western, with different appreciation like value of a life...

secondly the Thai History, including the construction of modern Thailand through an unification process... the exchange of territories which explain some details relative to Issan. The Chinese immigration and influence on Thai affairs....

Thirdly the Institutions about which we cannot talk on this forum

Quaterly some roots of the present conflict can be located in the aftermaith of the Vietnam war (Militias, weaponry smuggling)

......

So the situation is far more complex than it may appear in the International press.

Work hard......

Hallelujah! This is the kind of dialog I am looking in this forum. Finally a reply that it doesn't mention Abhisit, Thaksin and all the usual.

Thank you for these points. I do understand the complexity and the multi-dimensional character of the conflict. I do believe also that on top of all these parameters (religion, history of Thai nation, institutions) the very big inequality in Thailand is making things even more difficult. I've recently read a UN report about the human development in Thailand. It is very recent and published just some months ago. Before I quote a specific finding of the report I want to mention that this report has been produced by a joint committee comprising the UN, the Thai Government, NGOs, private sector and media. It has been reviewed and approved by the Thai government and signed on behalf of the Government by the Thai Minister of Social Development and human Security (Issara Somhcai). I would suggest to anyone that wants to have a very thorough overview of Thailand's development challenges to download and read the report (it is quite extensive though, 170 pages). The report could be downloaded at:

http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/nationalrep...e,19749,en.html

There is a section in inequality with the title "Confronting Persistent Inequality". The main message in the chapter is the following:

"Thailand is a very unequal society. There is growing awareness that inequality lies at the root of several forms of human insecurity, including rising political conflict." (page 78 of the report)

The report shows also how this inequality determines people's vote and how inequality is at it's worst form in Thailand comparing to other neighboring countries in South-East Asia (for more info read all the chapter).

So there is certainly a reason for people not being happy and wanting change and this need to change is expressed at this point of the Thai history with a very violent way. I think that if reds, yellows and everybody else will put issues like the inequality in the centre of the political and confrontational agenda we will see good things happening. The problem is (and it is very obvious in this forum) that the discussion about persons (Thaksin, Abhisit, etc.) is not allowing the confronting groups to find the solutions to these persistent problems.

I want to explain why I joined the forum and why I am posting here. I try to learn more about the political situation and I try to have various sources of information. I follow the international news channels (usually in the Internet because I do not like TV) everyday, I but both the Nation and Bangkok Post, I follow some blogs of people I trust and I talk to my colleagues in the office. I wanted also to follow a forum of people that they live here and i found the thaivisa. Why this introduction? Because I will continue posting here but I want to make clear that I'll not engage my self in any endless discussion with people that obviously have an agenda here and are posting just to pass their red or yellow propaganda. Three days in this forum have been very useful for me and I've seen how deep the hate between radical reds and yellows is. I do believe, as a principle, that average people are fundamentally good and it is mainly their experiences and the socio-cultural environment that they grow up that will made them good or bad. I do believe also that there are many "flowers" in the red and yellow group. And by flowers I mean average people that they have some beliefs and they want to fight peacefully for these beliefs. I am sure that if it was in their hands democracy in Thailand would have been better. At the same time I do believe that both the red and yellow groups include many garbages; garbages that have one and only objective: To stop any process for more democracy in Thailand. They have of course different reasons for not liking democracy but obviously both of them hate democracy.

To end my message; I liked very much the latest Economist's article about Thailand.

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displa...atures_box_main

The title is self-explanatory: "Violence in Bangkok: No end in sight"

And that's the main problem right now! "No end in sight". And as history teaches us "it needs just two stupid guys to start a war but many good ones (or few very strong ones) to finish it". And at this point I don't see any strong guys out there.

read first, understand the series of posts and then reply :-) Yes violence sells but what I was telling is that the last hours the international media do not report on Thailand on the basis of violent pictures.

Sorry, must have got lost in translation. Sometimes it's difficult to understand exactly what people are trying to say...

no problem :-) it happens in the forums. Especially when many of us are not native speakers.

Obviously you can't understand my post. I was talking about "the message" as a combination of a photo and a headline. I've provided the links and the screen shots but as I've told you are probably such a sad person that you try to imply that I was implying things. I was implying nothing more from what I've written.

You are not being very honest here since this is your original message which clearly shows you are implying (stating) something and I simply have asked you for the links to the actual article which you don't want to provide but that is okay .. we both have our own opinions.

The sites change their pictures and coverage very often; what I posted was the messages after the deadline passed. Just to say that I will not continue this because I have no interest to educate you and no interest to follow the reds-yellows arguments (or better nonsenses). I do not have also any need to prove my testosterone levels in an internet forum by "wining" another member. I am just sorry for you.

Your credibility does come into question when you continue to post pictures instead of links.

You are really a very sad person yea?

www.channelnewsasia.com/

news.bbc.co.uk/

edition.cnn.com/

english.aljazeera.net/

Talking about specific articles on these sites and posting screen shots of them to imply they say something while avoiding providing links to these articles makes no sense unless ....

Obviously you can't understand my post. I was talking about "the message" as a combination of a photo and a headline. I've provided the links and the screen shots but as I've told you are probably such a sad person that you try to imply that I was implying things. I was implying nothing more from what I've written.

The one conclusion is that the Thai government has lost for the time being the "media game". And it will need some very convincing arguments to change the mindset of the media. Is it important? No for the situation in Thailand but it is important for the credibility of the government at the international level. Very difficult days in front of Abhisit!

I agree with this. I am embarrassed at how badly the situation is being reported in the Australian press. The standard of journalism is pathetic - very little research or understanding of the political background is being done. They just pick up the catchy UDD headlines and bang, there's your story, poor unarmed protested fighting for democracy and being brutalised by the regieme. I think the government has actually done a fairly good job of dredging up evidence about armed black shirt behaviour, but its a lot more effort for the press to explain and its a less attractive headline.

Let's face it, the international community (aaaaand plenty of TV members) are pretty skeptical about the credibility of any Thai government in general. A lot of people still believe the place is run by jack-booted thugs, and convincing them otherwise is not easy.

Then you have a billionaire with nothing to do but hire PR firms to spit out propaganda on his behalf while he tears the country in two and shops for manbags in France. Not a good situation.

You should go to the wikipedia and post your definition of pathetic journalism: when the journalists do not report according to my views! Well done Mr. Joseph

The wife just said that only Asians shop there. She has been a few times and said the only white people you will see are the staff.

Well, that's the truth. the LV shop is really full of Asians traveling to Paris. The Japanese are actually more than 50% of the tourists there. and they want to but EVERYTHING! I was leaving 4 years in Paris and very close to the LV shop and I've seen this tens of times!

Let me say first that what I want to point with this post is only how the international media report the situation. I attach here 4 screen shots from BBC, Al Jazeera, CNN and Channel News Asia. All of them have the same title more or less: "Thai protesters defy evacuation deadline". The important think is the photos that are using for this articles. There is no photo of violence, 2 of them have kids, one is showing a peaceful group of people and another the dead military leader of the Reds (but not in a violent photo). The one conclusion is that the Thai government has lost for the time being the "media game". And it will need some very convincing arguments to change the mindset of the media. Is it important? No for the situation in Thailand but it is important for the credibility of the government at the international level. Very difficult days in front of Abhisit!

They need advertising revenue to covers their reporters expenditures as well as to roused their reader interests in their media coverage. True or false doesn't matter as long as their paper are selling like hotcakes.

You should know that violence sells more than no-violence (it is common knowledge that blood and sex are the hottest promotional materials) so they definitely don't do this for advertisement. As I've said in some of my previous posts, take a grip, sit a bit back and see the situation without red or yellow filters in front of your eyes.

Surely you're both right?

When it comes to newspapers, violence and sex sell!

And, the more they sell, the easier it is to attract advertisers... :-)

e

read first, understand the series of posts and then reply :-) Yes violence sells but what I was telling is that the last hours the international media do not report on Thailand on the basis of violent pictures.