Spartans

Dear Spartans,

Having spent many years as a senior consultant and CEO in telecommunications and VOIP here in Thailand, I think you need to hear some direct facts, rather than some of the grossly misinformed advice you are receiving in some of the above posts [No disrespect intended - I just tell things in black-and-white].

First I will tell you what you WANT TO HEAR, and then I will tell you what you NEED TO HEAR!!

WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR:

Under certain circumstances, it is perfectly legal to record telephone conversations in Thailand. The most important part of that sentence is the first three words - under certain circumstances.

1. If one of the conversing parties has full knowledge that the conversation is being recorded, and has given you written permission to record their conversations, then it is perfectly legal to record any incoming or outgoing conversation that they will have. They DO NOT have to notify the person on the other end of the line that the call is being recorded. Send a memo to all staff notifying them that all direct supervisors will now have all the calls recorded for security and operational purposes. If they are using an android phone, the best program for recording all calls is Auto Call Recorder. It also allows you to exclude certain numbers from being recorded, so you calling the wife or your wife calling you would still be a private call. [Please note: I have absolutely no affiliation or interest in promoting auto call recorder. After testing almost every app in the android market, it has proven to be the easiest and most functional, while working transparently in the background]

2. If your company telephone system has a global recorded message stating that all calls may be recorded for security and operational purposes [in both Thai and English], then you can legally record any incoming or outgoing conversations on your company telephones. In Thailand, you DO NOT have to include any option for them to opt-out of this recording requirement. However, as most Thai people make calls from their mobile phones, you would be relying on her calling her direct supervisor on his office phone and him recording the conversation from his office phone. Therefore, it would be easier to use Option 1 above and have the supervisor record the phone call on his mobile phone.

3. Any law enforcement official can obtain the equivalent of a wire tap warrant, providing they believe there is a criminal act occurring. In your case, the action is civil in nature, and the police would not entertain this option.

4. The National Telecommunications Commission [NTC] have the power to record anything, the power to have a telephone blocked and locked, or the power to shut down a complete telecommunications network. They are above the government, but below the King, so they normally only conduct authorized surveillance on things that are of national interest. Your case would not apply in this instance.

Therefore, you legally have two options available to you should you wish to persu them.

From a non-telecommunications perspective, there is always the option of installing video surveillance cameras with audio in the office, and having the supervisors answer the calls on speakerphones which 'accidentally' gets picked up by the surveillance video recordings.

NOW WHAT YOU NEED TO HEAR:

It is obvious by some of the above comments, that they have had absolutely nothing to do with managing Thai staff in a Thai company.

1. You have already told us that her fellow staff have joined with her. It is a complete waste of time to demote her. A festering sore will continue to be a festering sore until it is removed from the host body. Get your corporate lawyer to advise you on the safest and fastest way to terminate her employment. In Thai labor laws, there is a clause which states "If business conditions necessitate cutbacks, firms have freedom in determining retrenchment policies; there is no “first in, last out” requirement in Thailand". Therefore, sending an office memo advising that "due to changing business conditions there will be a necessity for office cutbacks". Have a group office meeting to make sure everybody knows this, and then notify her privately three days later that her position is one of the positions that has been cut, and thanking her for her valuable contribution". Write her a glowing reference, and let her become someone else's problem as quick as possible. Please see the severance pay paragraph below for the true severance rates which are mandatory.

2. Recording conversations is not advised, simply because the supervisor could accidentally use statements that could be claimed as "entrapment" and used against you. When you are recording conversations with the intent of a specific outcome, it is very easy to accidentally use words and phrases that entrap the other person into divulging information they may or may not have divulged otherwise. There is no point giving them any evidence to take to the labor office or law enforcement.

3. The Labor Department in Thailand is very fair and just. Do not listen to posters above who claim that it is biased towards employees. As long as you have the facts, have not abused your rights as an employer, and present your case effectively, the labor office will find in your favor. If you are wrong, then the labor office will find in favor of the employee. Do it by the letter of the law and there is no avenue of recourse by the employee. I have never seen an occurrence where the labor office has come in and confiscated property when everything has been done right. I have heard of several horror stories of farang companies doing it wrong and getting penalized heavily - and rightly so. The labor law is a law, and if you adhere to it's requirements, then all will play out as expected.

4. Regardless of anything else, terminating the employment of any legal employee will incur mandatory severance pay as stipulated by law in the labor laws of Thailand. You and previous posters are both wrong about current severance pay rates.

As per the current laws found at www.boi.go.th/tir/issue/200506_16_6/14.htm
4 months - 1 year employment = 30 days severance pay
1 - 3 years employment = 90 days severance pay
3 - 6 years employment = 180 days severance pay
6 - 10 years employment = 240 days severance pay
More than 10 years employment = 300 days severance pay
A rule of thumb for employees working less than 4 months is 1 week severance pay per 1 month of employment, but this is completely optional and at the discretion of the employer. The labor office cannot force an employer to pay severance pay for an employee of less than 4 months duration, but it almost guarantees a decision in the employer's favor if the disgruntled employee ever tries to take the employer to the Labor Department for whatever reason.

IN CONCLUSION:

My advice to you from the senior management perspective is to get this employee off your payroll immediately. Be aware that maybe one or two of the other staff may resign immediately with her, but see that as a bonus and not worry too much. After all, it is better to have all the cancer removed in one go than to risk leaving part of it behind which can teach bad habits to others. It will also serve as a "wake-up call" and a "shot across the bow" warning to all the other office staff who started to gang up with her, that this type of action will not be tolerated. I would urge you to consult with your lawyer about her termination, and not worry about recording the calls.

That being said, you should learn from this lesson, and put in place a system of recording all communications with senior management and supervisors. As listed above, it is very easy to record telephone conversations and mobilephone conversations nowadays. Make it part of your corporate governance - it should be mandatory for NGOs in any case.

Resist the advice above relating to sending emails to get her to confirm what she said. Unless you are exceptionally careful with your wording, you will very quickly find yourself caught up in entrapment.

I trust that this will steer you in the right direction, and apologize if any of the previous posters feel that I may have trodden on their toes.

Telecom66

You, my friend, were the reason I wrote in this forum

What you wrote confirmed what the lawyer said to us this afternoon (I am glad to have second source confirming what he said). Additionally, you presented some practical ideas that we have not explored yet with the lawyer.

I really appreciate the time and energy you spent writing this. Thank you!

And it is a month severance per month of employment

That seems ridiculous to me. I doubt it's true.

Yeah, it is not correct. In Thailand, if she works less than a year, she' entitled to 1 month. And between 1-3 years, it is 3 month salary.

Also to take into consideration, is the OP`s business completely legal and above board?

I mean, not included as a prohibited profession for farangs? Is the OP an official registered director or owner of the company? Work permits? Pays taxes? The employees are registered employees of the company and so on?

If the OP`s company is not absolutely squeaky clean, than any disputes with employees could prove disastrous.

I have noticed that the OP has taken a powder and gone quite. I usually do have a knack of ending threads with my direct questions. Be interesting to see if the OP response to any of my questions. They normally don`t when these issues arise.

Hi, yeah. It is legal and above board. Not a prohibited profession for farang either. Work permits, taxes and everything is okay. We took extra measure in these and learned hard in the past. It is a growing NGO, so some governance structure is problematic but no legal issues in the organization.

But I agree with you. If we have to go to court, there always a chance where minor issues that were overlooked can be disastrous.

>He just posted 25 minutes ago - how is that "taking a powder" (whatever that means), exactly? I think that if the OP thinks he is going to get out of this without paying, he is foolish. Either separation pay, or lawyer fees - one way or another - he is going to pay.

Correct. Not "taking a powder"...never heard that reference before actually. I think it is not only about avoiding paying separation pay, but also to set up example to other employees that they cannot just declined to do their work and get separation pays. But yes, it seems like in this situation, it is going to be a lawyer fee.

I gather what you mean by separation pay, is actually Severance pay. Same thing I suppose.

There is employee termination without cause and employee termination with cause and now you have explained, I fully understand why you are seeking some evidence against this employee.

If you feel that you have just cause to sack the said employment, that can also include having an attitude problem and poor working performance, you may have no need to pay severance pay.

Your problem is that you are placing yourself into a very precarious situation if each time you have unsuitable staff members, you are afraid to sack them, and there will be more of her sort in the future, I speak from experience, trust me on this one.

My advice is, sack this employee and do not offer any separation pay, on the grounds that the said employee has an attitude problem, poor working performance and is disruptive to the smooth running of the company for reasons you have already mentioned.

If you permit these sorts of staff behaviour to continue, show fear and pay monies in order to rid the company of unsuitable staff members, then your company will fail to be progressive and other staff members will also try it on.

Whatever you decide has to be up to your own discretion, but that’s my advice for what it`s worth.

Bettlejuice, thanks. We will try and consult a lawyer and hopefully can resolve this issue quickly. This issue is becoming more complicated because this girl comes from a wealthy family, and she's doing this just to toy with us. Additionally, her Thai work colleagues apparently ganged up and support her.

I can't imagine someone would do that to an NGO that has been providing services to people and try to improve quality of lives. But people have called me naive and foolish many times before. And apparently, this is another case.

Will try to update the result in this forum later, in case anyone have similar situation.

I have to say & admit this: I have been strongly against other farangs who complained against the Thai working culture. I never been so wrong.

Thanks to all that has been providing advices

Also to take into consideration, is the OP`s business completely legal and above board?

I mean, not included as a prohibited profession for farangs? Is the OP an official registered director or owner of the company? Work permits? Pays taxes? The employees are registered employees of the company and so on?

If the OP`s company is not absolutely squeaky clean, than any disputes with employees could prove disastrous.

I have noticed that the OP has taken a powder and gone quite. I usually do have a knack of ending threads with my direct questions. Be interesting to see if the OP response to any of my questions. They normally don`t when these issues arise.

Hi, yeah. It is legal and above board. Not a prohibited profession for farang either. Work permits, taxes and everything is okay. We took extra measure in these and learned hard in the past. It is a growing NGO, so some governance structure is problematic but no legal issues in the organization.

But I agree with you. If we have to go to court, there always a chance where minor issues that were overlooked can be disastrous.

He just posted 25 minutes ago - how is that "taking a powder" (whatever that means), exactly? I think that if the OP thinks he is going to get out of this without paying, he is foolish. Either separation pay, or lawyer fees - one way or another - he is going to pay.

Correct. Not "taking a powder"...never heard that reference before actually. I think it is not only about avoiding paying separation pay, but also to set up example to other employees that they cannot just declined to do their work and get separation pays. But yes, it seems like in this situation, it is going to be a lawyer fee.

Thanks for the advices. I think we're going to need a lawyer. We're an NGO, and would need to manage our money tight. Her 3 months pay would be able to support some of our ground activities.

The thing is that her performance has been declining up to a point where she basically declined to work and intentionally delay her work process and influence other team member's work . And then she started to lie on what she discussed with her direct supervisor over the phones and what she described in emails. This happened repeatedly and created a lot of work-related problem.

The strange thing is that Thailand labour law still require us to pay separation pays if the termination of contract is due to her lack of performance.

Anyways, thanks.

If we sack the girl without cause that will stand in court, then we have to pay for 3 months salaries. Don't wanna give her that. So need an evidence. Figure probably I'll try this forum first in case others had similar experience, before calling a lawyer. Thanks, man.

Hi

I am having problem with one of my employee. She's basically compulsive liar. The problem is that we need evidence. Is it legal to record a phone call in Thailand? Will it stand in court, for example? Thanks for your help!

Just something to think about for those who are buying iPhone 5 and expect to use LTE in Thailand: even if they managed to make it happen next year, I noticed that there are 2 types of LTE trial here, one with 2.3 GHZ, and the other one is 1.8GHZ.

Not an expert on LTE, but iPhone 5 seem to only support several LTE channel, but not 2.3GHZ. 1.8GHZ is supported, but the thing is I noticed that 1.8GHZ trial is the one less mentioned in the trial announcement.

I thought LTE trial is already rolled out early this year and larger scale will be by the end of this year? Here's the trial http://www.ais.co.th/4g/about-en.html and a video testing the trial

And here's the larger scale trial plan http://www.totaltele.com/view.aspx?ID=476024

Am I missing something?

RIP for the guy. Sad story. But really, I'm beginning to think that most commenters are probably hanging out with the wrong crowd. You'll find women like this all over the world, especially if you marry the first girl that approached you in a foreign third world country and can speak a little english. So, again, if you're thinking to marry the first girl you met in bar, maybe it's best to stay cautious. I'm not justifying the act of this woman. Killer is a killer, and victim is victim. But there are measures that you can take to avoid that...

Libertia? My bum.

The day these youngsters can provide for themselves and contribute their fair share to society is the day I take notice of their opinions.

'Biting the hand that feeds you' is the appropriate expression.

And this is what the expression meant by "getting old"...

using the top prices by 700 still gives under 40 million, so where is the other 10 million going?

To unlock them

Couldn't stop laughing over this!

If they want to help ease traffic matters they should reduce the number of taxis. There are an extimated 70,000 taxis in a city that only requires about half that number. Another thing would be for the taxi driver to accept all fares who flag them. I am fed up with the crap of taxi drivers telling me they do not or will not go where I want to go. Failure to accept a fare should result in hack licenxse revocation. Now, why won't this ever happen? The taxi mafia.

Let them go blow smoke up someone else's ass.

Seconded. What kind of crap taxi service refuses a fare? Have never seen this in any other country ever, it's ridiculous.

Agreed. I'm from Indonesia, where everything else are worse than Thailand except for one: Taxi. I was so surprised that taxis here are very very rude, don't know how to drive and can actually reject you. Time for Thailand to have a proper taxi companies.

Hi, anybody know where to get a DVD navigation for Toyota Vios in Bangkok and the price? It would be great if there is a website for car accessories shop?

Ah sorry. I didnt see the motor forum. Sorry.

Hi, I'm wondering if anybody know how much is DVD Navigation for Vios? And where can we get it in Bangkok? Thanks!

Hi,

Does anyone know where to buy cheap backdrop paper for studio? I found one in Panthip but they quoted me for THB 4,000! I think that's 4 times the normal price, but I couldn't find any other shop. Capa listed for around THB 2,600. Still very expensive.

Thanks!

Hi all,

I am looking for a photography vest (or maybe a travel vest) in Bangkok. Been living here for 4 years and never seen one. Fotofile doesn't have it. There must be some place that sell it, but I'm dont go to shoping malls that much, so I don't know where. Any advice will be much appreciated!

Cheers!

Hi,

Just bought an iPad at MBK. 3G 64GB at THB 33,500. Was paranoid at the beginning cause the other stores offer 39,000, but I took my chance and turned out to be very good. Sealed box and iPad works awesome. The store gave store guarantee for 12 months. A long with the iPad, I bought original dock and fake casing (I dont like apple original case, so I bought the other model which is more comfortable to carry).

Tried to buy Camera connection kit, but stock was out as well as the VGA adapter.

Got True micro SIM postpaid - with THB 899 package (unlimited GPRS/EDGE, unlimited WiFi True Account at 2MBPS, and 5GB 3G) - works great. The 3G connection is faster than my CAT ADSL connection (my ADSL is not that good, so wont be a good comparison).

Forgot to buy Screen Protector (and I often have oily fingers and just too lazy to wach my hands) - so need one. Will be at MBK today buying the rest of the needed accessories.

Hi,

I'm looking for a park or arena where people play BMX freestyle/stunt in Bangkok for photography purposes. Anyone ever seen one? Will appreciate any help.

Cheers