Wozzit

There is one issue which I think has not yet been aired re the relative leniency of the sentence handed down to Duch. This is part of an articleby a Cambodian Khymer Rouge survivor in Engand's Guardian on-line newspaper -

I also know there may have been another reason for the court to reduce Duch's sentence. At a post-verdict debate in a Phnom Penh hotel, US Ambassador at Large for war crimes issues Stephen Rapp said that in his experience it is always best to lessen the punishment for a convicted person on whom you may rely in a future trial. Otherwise they may not co-operate when you need them. In this instance, the Khmer Rouge tribunal certainly needs Duch's help in their next prosecutions of the four most senior surviving leaders, in particular Nuon Chea, Pol Pot's deputy who is also sometimes known as Brother Number Two. That case is due for indictment in September. The charges expected are crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2010/jul/27/khmer-rouge-war-crimes-sentence

Agreed. You have to stop somewhere. If not, then you can trace the present conflict between certain muslims and certain non-muslims to the Crusades. I do think meaningful justice basically requires a physical presence. So punishment can be meted out for crimes committed by a person or persons who remain alive, whereas those who are dead escape. (I know this might open up a debate about justice for those killed by the state and then proved innocent, but I think that is a separate issue).

You can thank the French for creating the tension in the first place. But it was the Arms trade which was the real motivation behind the war. They sure sold a lot of bombs.

Some of which continue to kill and maim today - mostly children, especially in Laos. Lest we forget, the war was centred on Vietnam, but embraced Cambodia and also Laos . Yet, in a largely secret war, more tonnage was dropped over Laos than by all combatants during the entire Second World War. That amounted to one planeload of bombs every 8 minutes, 24 hours per day for 9 years! It is the most bombed country in history!

Sorry that it is a large quote - but the US was more than a 'part of the problem'. Not only did they bomb Laos and Cambodia, but they actively supported the Pol Pot regime (in a similar way that they supprted Osama bin Laden). They supported Pol Pot to try and keep the communists out of Cambodia. Even when Hun Sen was democratically elected - they refused to acknowledge him. The US has put almost NO aid into Cambodia. The CIA were a MAJOR part of the problem.

Even before its support of Pol Pot, the US/CIA destabilised Cambodia in 1970 when it arranged for Sihanouk to be deposed and replaced by its puppet Head of Government, Lon Nol - much the same as they did in South Vietnam.

"I turn 61-years-old today. I am an old man who would love to see good things happen in our country and I'm ready to help all sides who want this country to return to peace."

Seems he has a short memory. Isn't this the man who, during the bloody, murderous riots in Bangkok in April 2009, called for the people to rise in revolution? Note he is not calling for his supporters to use peaceful means. Merely that he wants the country to return to peace.

I am happy to apologise for basing a comment on a photo and using a "looks like" description which was not accurate.

Apology accepted - and that "contribution" you promised?

To answer your questions, although they have little to do with Pletnev:

Present garden about 3 rai (some 5,000 m²); I live outside Pattaya and paid less than 5% of what I would have paid in Pattaya, so that does not mean that my house (or Pletnev's, despite what has been implied here) is "palatial" . First pool 25m. No pool now as I have 2 large freshwater lakes.

Sorry, but I don't agree about the size of the coffee shop per se; There's a small comfortable part and "a large space", as your friend said, with some decrepit furniture. My Thai kitchen is under my house where you could park 10 - 12 cars (I don't!), so it could seat quite a few.

I cannot be incorrect correcting you about the bar, as I didn't - I simply described it to put it the "major sports complex" into perspective.

Entrance charges vary widely as do the facilities. The Euro Club charges compare poorly as their facilities are poor - if you are interested in badminton try the Pattaya badminton club on 3rd road, near Tony's, or the Ambassador.

These points are all minor and unimportant and I could honestly not care less how accurate they (or you) are. It was no more than a demonstration of just how wide of the mark some of the reports on Pletnev were which were being taken at face value and how unwise it was to say that "You ought not to be able to make false statements without someone bringing it to other posters attention" unless you are sure of everything you post on that topic, as "someone" may have nothing better to do than point out some "false statements" you have made yourself.

Bye.

Let's agree on one thing. Yes, the points are minor. I erred re the pool size, accepted - although when I am not certain of something I add , as I did in this case, "it looks like" or sometimes "seems to me", which is how any normal person will make a comment of which he is not 100% certain. On the other hand, in making specific underlined statements but then failing to provide any detail, you definitely give the impression that things are not quite what they are.

You state your pool is 25 metres in length. I am sure very few people reading this will accept that this is the average size of a garden pool for a house in Pattaya. It is far larger.

Equally, from what you say, my friend's comment re the coffee shop is perfectly pertinent. I defy anyone to agree that a space that can accommodate "10 - 12 cars" is a normal-sized, or even a large, kitchen. It is certainly big enough for a coffee shop and could certainly, in that case, accommodate 30 or more people. My statement was therefore correct, but in saying it is "smaller than my Thai kitchen" and then not pointing out the relative size of your kitchen, you leave posters with the mistaken impression that the coffee shop is a great deal smaller than it is. I have no idea about the furniture, and I have never raised it other than discussing the number of people that my friend felt could be accommodated. Further, you continue to comment that the entrance charges "compare poorly", yet you give no comparison. But now you are concentrating your argument on the quality of the facilities relative to price rather than price itself. So you twist again!

As for making a contribution, I did not make any false statement. My "looks like" estimate of the pool size was incorrect. That is completely different from my suggesting that those betting Pletnev would definitely not return to Pattaya 8 days ago were wrong, and that if they were indeed wrong I would take them up on their bet - on the understanding that the loser would make a contribution to charity. Again, you twist the argument. But for your information, the two who made such bets and lost have both informed me that they will fulfill their agreement. One has even asked for my advice on the charity. In my reply, I thanked him for his honesty, pointing out that the intention was never for one person to win and another to lose - merely for a charity to gain. I have therefore matched the amount he is donating for the same children's welfare charity. I trust that answers your question. If you wish to see a payment slip, I will gladly send a copy to you.

The crooks on Capital Hill discuss a crook - is there something wrong with this picture?

How many times have we seen the American Congress hold hearings on other countries with witnesses telling tearful, often heart-wrenching stories, only for these to be discovered later to be a pack of lies! Too many interested parties, including some representatives, use these purely for selfish PR purposes.

Wozzit. I was just contrasting the rapid post war reparations in Germany, enabled by vested interests and huge amounts of foreign money, with the pitifully slow and almost stationary progress in Cambodia after the country was reduced to year zero. As someone here said, much more needs to be done by other countries but as there is no oil or other riches to plunder I doubt whether the west will get involved but surely Cambodia's rich neighbours like Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, China etc. could do much more. It's amazing what a country will do when it has its self interest at heart.

Getting Europe back on to its feet vey quickly was very much in the self-interest of the United States after World War 2. Unfortunately it's not really in the interests of other countries in this region to see Cambodia back on its feet. There is a history of bad blood between Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam, Laos is too poor, Malaysia and Singapore are too far away. Yes, you are correct. They should do much more to help. But as Bismark said, "Politics is the art of the possible." There's not much to be gained politically by helping a poor country like Cambodia. Morally . . . well, that's a quality not many politicians seem to possess.

If anyone wants to read about Comrade Duch, there is an amazing memoir by Francois Bizot of his capture by the Khymer Rouge titled "The Gate". Bizot was a prisoner of Duch before the Cambodian was transferred to Tuol Sleng. As William Shawcross wrote in The Sunday Times in the UK, "The Gate is a thrilling, exquisitely observed and terrifying account of the world trapped in the moral cul-de-sac of absolute revolution. It reads like a novel and sears both the consciousness and the heart. If you only ever read one book on Cambodia, make sure it is this one." Writing on the day the trial started early last year, Bizot himself contributed an article to The New York Times. He reminds readers that Duch ordered the death penalty 12,380 times. He then describes and incident following the start of the trial -

Last February, Duch was led, with his consent, to the scenes of his crimes. The visit was a shock for all who witnessed it. This major judicial step took place in an atmosphere of intense, palpable emotion."I ask for your forgiveness — I know that you cannot forgive me, but I ask you to leave me the hope that you might," he said before collapsing in tears on the shoulder of one of his guards. I was not there — it was a closed hearing — but those who were reported that the cry of the former executioner betrayed such suffering that one of the few survivors of Tuol Sleng screamed out, "Here are the words that I've longed to hear for 30 years!" It could be that forgiveness is possible after a simple, natural process, when the victim feels that he has been repaid. And the executioner has to pay dearly, for it is the proof of his suffering that eases ours.

http://www.nytimes.c...on/17bizot.html

What's disgusting about all this is why the hel_l justice is being sought decades after the event. The gross ineptitude of the the government and all the quagmire of officialdom, endemic coruption and indifference of the international community, and of course those members of the current government who can no doubt remember those halcyon days slitting children's throats and raping and torturing women to death - is nothing less than pure evil.

It has been mentioned that if more of those psychopathic killers were brought to justice it could trigger a civil war. Does that mean there are still enough Pol Pot sympathizers in Cambodia today who could take up arms against the present government? I have lost faith in humanity.

The delay is unforgivable, but seemingly tied up with Khymer Rouge loyalties and Vietnamese politics. We must remember that the present leader Hun Sen was a member of that Khymer Rouge Killing machine. He and some colleagues, including Heng Samrin, fell out with Pol Pot and fled to Vietnam in late 1978. The VIetnamese assembled a government in exile around them, and installed them in power after their 1979 invasion. In 1999 Hun Sen gave amnesty to several Khymer Rouge thugs, including Khieu Samphan and its chief idealogue Nuon Chea. At the time, he stated a trial would not be in the public interest!!

What does all this say about Cambodia today? Perhaps it will be a safer and more stable country when the last of the demented psychopaths have died and a new breed of educated, enlightened and compassionate leaders come forward and serve their people and country without self-interest. Or is there an evil that will always lurk amongst the gentle smiling faces? The poverty in the countryside is pitiful, and some 30 years after the event. How long did the German reparations take after the allies totally levelled the country? What would Cambodia do without the enormous level of financial aid from the west, mostly from individual benefactors. What is the government doing? It makes one ask whether the country will ever develop.

I share your hope that it will become a safer and more stable country, for I found the Cambodian people some of the friendliest I ever met. And it was not just the war that killed so many of them. Once the United Nations administrators flooded into the country, ostensibly to do good, HIV began to spread alarmingly, and so the Cambodians suffered yet again at the hands of westerners.

I am not sure what you are suggesting in your comment "How long did the Germans take after the allies totally levelled the country?" It was largely the reparations imposed by the allied powers in 1919 that helped create the conditions for the rise of Hitler and his thugs. After the 2nd World War, the massively-funded US Marshall Plan put Germany and other parts of Europe back on their feet far more quickly than had they been left to do it alone. That was partly self-interest - to bolster Europe to ward off the communist threat. But it was also to ensure that the after effects of 1919 did not recur. Cambodia was indeed an inconvenient "sideshow" in the Vietnam War. After Pol Pot, the west did little to help. And with Cambodia being such a poor country, it's almost impossible for it to find the resources needed to drag the country out of its poverty. The west needs to accept its responsibilities and do far more.

They deserve all the praise they are getting.

What's disgusting about all this is why the hel_l justice is being sought decades after the event. The gross ineptitude of the the government and all the quagmire of officialdom, endemic coruption and indifference of the international community, and of course those members of the current government who can no doubt remember those halcyon days slitting children's throats and raping and torturing women to death - is nothing less than pure evil.

It has been mentioned that if more of those psychopathic killers were brought to justice it could trigger a civil war. Does that mean there are still enough Pol Pot sympathizers in Cambodia today who could take up arms against the present government? I have lost faith in humanity.

The delay is unforgivable, but seemingly tied up with Khymer Rouge loyalties and Vietnamese politics. We must remember that the present leader Hun Sen was a member of that Khymer Rouge Killing machine. He and some colleagues, including Heng Samrin, fell out with Pol Pot and fled to Vietnam in late 1978. The VIetnamese assembled a government in exile around them, and installed them in power after their 1979 invasion. In 1999 Hun Sen gave amnesty to several Khymer Rouge thugs, including Khieu Samphan and its chief idealogue Nuon Chea. At the time, he stated a trial would not be in the public interest!!

Why give balance to a group with such a track record of terrorist acts? This isn't a garden party.

Why? Just to be fair!

Till now there is no proof who did this, only many speculations. Many good, bad, interesting arguments for and against. Only party not accused yet are the aliens (the real ones that is). As I said, IMHO it's red/UDD sympathisers, but that still allows me to try to keep an open-mind!

I don't see the point in giving equal weight to ridiculous theories. The theory that the government did it is ridiculous.

I am sorry but I can't agree. Whilst I think a red sympathiser probably planted the bomb, sadly I can think of some situations when a government sympathiser or sympathetic group would want plant it - and therefore might have planted it. The struggle going on in this country is deep with two pretty entrenched positions. One is in power; the other wants power because it believes the power it had was illegally torn from it. I would find it hard to believe there are not extremists on both sides.

The Khmer Rouge could never have seized power if the United States had not destabilized the entire region with its aggression. A great deal of the blame lies with the US. It would be wonderful if the US would apologize and pay reparations to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. It would certainly be a better use of billions of dollars than bailing out Wall Street.

and just where are you from oh wise one?????do you forget that if not for those aggressive americans you would probably be speaking german or japanese right now????

Am I wrong, or wasn't the war in Vietnam and surrounding countries well after the end of World War 2? I accept, however, that the US frequently takes a bashing from those who conveniently forget that it's entry into World War 2 did indeed turn the tide. But let's not forget that had it not been for the Brits, the whole of Europe would have been under Hitler well before the US made up its mind.

It does strike me that America and Americans sometimes have problems in coming to terms with the fact that it is the world's only superpower. During the Cold War, both sides got away with lots of atrocities by basically blaming the other side. With the crash of the Soviet Union, there is no-one now to take the blame except the US. The good that it does - and it's a lot - is conveniently glossed over by those with other agendas. In time, though, the Chinese will rival it in economic and military might. Perhaps then the bashings will tail off.

The Khmer Rouge could never have seized power if the United States had not destabilized the entire region with its aggression. A great deal of the blame lies with the US. It would be wonderful if the US would apologize and pay reparations to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. It would certainly be a better use of billions of dollars than bailing out Wall Street.

I agree that the US was part of the problem, for sure. But how far back do you go? Bolivia for the millions who died mining silver for the Spanish? The hundreds who died in Indonesia fighting against the Dutch? The UK was all over the world (Middle East, India, Pakistan...well, there truly were everywhere). And Africa is basically a mess due to mainly European countries and religious institutions. It's terrible when countries do this stuff and then get away with it...to this day...

Agreed. You have to stop somewhere. If not, then you can trace the present conflict between certain muslims and certain non-muslims to the Crusades. I do think meaningful justice basically requires a physical presence. So punishment can be meted out for crimes committed by a person or persons who remain alive, whereas those who are dead escape. (I know this might open up a debate about justice for those killed by the state and then proved innocent, but I think that is a separate issue).

You can thank the French for creating the tension in the first place. But it was the Arms trade which was the real motivation behind the war. They sure sold a lot of bombs.

Some of which continue to kill and maim today - mostly children, especially in Laos. Lest we forget, the war was centred on Vietnam, but embraced Cambodia and also Laos . Yet, in a largely secret war, more tonnage was dropped over Laos than by all combatants during the entire Second World War. That amounted to one planeload of bombs every 8 minutes, 24 hours per day for 9 years! It is the most bombed country in history!

In my trips to Cambodia, I refused to go to S-21 as it was a tourist attraction

It should be sacred ground.

My biggest disgust is that I as a westerner supported this regime, but now we pretend not to remember our part..

A good and fair point. But I also think everyone should see such sites - as they should Auschwitz and other mass killing grounds. Also I am not sure I agree that it is a "tourist attraction". Sure tourists go, but it is a very moving and solemn experience. The full impact of what happened can not be learned from books and photos. To be there is to feel in your soul the full horror of it.

There is an excellent book which I hope is still in print: "Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia". I do not know enough of the history to make judgements. But it seems clear that the USA's illegal and undeclared war against Cambodia, taken together with SIhanouk's wishy-washy diplomacy and the corrupt puppet regime in Phnom Penh, set the pieces in place for the takeover by the Khymer Rouge. We cannot undo the past. All we can do is reflect on it and determine that each of us must do everything we can to ensure that such genocide never happens again.

The Khmer Rouge could never have seized power if the United States had not destabilized the entire region with its aggression. A great deal of the blame lies with the US. It would be wonderful if the US would apologize and pay reparations to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. It would certainly be a better use of billions of dollars than bailing out Wall Street.

I often wonder what would have happened in South East Asia if first Roosevelt or later Truman had agreed to Ho Chi Minh's many requests for assistance in getting rid of the French colonialists. Unfortunately, Truman needed France's help in the war against communism in Europe. So despite colonialism being against American policy, the French were allowed to continue their domination of Vietnam. I therefore do not think you can blame the US for everything. The French rule in Vietnam was bloody and humiliating. They must take their share of the blame, as must all the western powers who turned their eyes away when the murderous Pol Pot closed his country. It was only a few intrepid and brave journalists who eventually exposed what was happening a couple of years or so later. I do think, though, that there must be sufficient evidence somehwere for Kissinger to be indicted as a war criminal.

I visited the school in Phnom Penh that became the infamous Tuol Sleng prison. I could not hold back tears. I went to the Killing Fields outside the city. I saw the site of the mass graves and the memorial filled with skulls. Again I cried. Man's inhumanity to man knowns no bounds. i am glad that the Cambodians are finally confronting their horrific past. I am only saddened that many of those responsible for the genocide are dying of natural causes before the wheels of justice have caught up with them.

Why don't they show pictures of the Customers in the places they raid????

Check the link in the OP. There is a picture of customers. Customers in a go go bar have committed no crime of interest to Thai police unless they are drug tested positive or are caught engaging an underage prostitute. In this raid the foreign customer was not a real customer, he was working for the police, so he of course committed no crime. You are wrong that customers are never pictured in press about raids. In the case of this bar, the vast majority of the staff was of legal age (contrary to the misleading headline), and it is unfair to make any assumptions that the customers there that night were interested in underage sex workers. (Of course, some may have been, but a person's private intention without an illegal action is not a crime.) I realize there are still people who think it is scandalous and shameful just to be gay, or shameful to go to a go go bar but if going to a go go bar was a crime in Thailand, imagine how many jails they would have to build.

And they would be filled mostly with Thais!

Wozzit

Still here.

But this is it no sense talking to a closed mind.

I was well aware of the Japanese case. I was referring to the one in Switzerland and not the cancellation of his job there. I read it on one of the earlier posts of witch I have read them all and you have not notice I had to find the one for you. That alone tells us two things 1 you can not research the simplest of things and two my memory is not that good it was not in the first three pages as I had said my mistake sorry. Now if I can not remember something like that how in the he--l do you expect me to remember where one single post is that I gave no real notice of if I had realized you were that interested I would have wrote it down..

As for Moskovsky Komsomoletsr They may or may not be a scandal magazine makes no difference if you will reread wikipedia you will notice it says nothing about being based on lies. That being said I doubt your ability to research News papers from pre internet and communist controlled media. Not surprising it was not in the communist approved News Paper. And if it is so iffy why did a modern day respectable paper print it.

GOODBY

Hello! I don''t know how often I have to say it. There is absolutely NO case/charge/call-it-what-you-like in Switzerland. Period! It is not on any earlier post - and I have read them all not just on this thread but on all threads related to this case. And I re-read them all again when you were so certain I was wrong. So, you directed me to nothing. You ought not to be able to make false statements without someone bringing it to other posters attention If you or any other poster can provide any evidence that proves me wrong, I will apologise and make a contribution to a child welfare charity! I suggest again you don't make assertions you cannot follow up.

As to the Moscow scandal newspaper, I take it your view is therefore that anything published in a scandal magazine must necessarily be based on truth. That's a new one on me - and I am sure most other posters!

SInce this issue of a case in Switzerland is clearly bugging you - and you are unable to provide any proof whatever of its existence or even of its having been written about, I am using my media accreditation pass to seek information from the press office at the Federal Department of Foreign Affairs in Bern. I will inform you and other posters of the result.

From what I understand, he owns a house and an apartment. Plus he built with his own money a major sports complex for the people living in the area. This has several badminton courts with air conditioning (seems he is a keen badminton player), an Olympic size-pool, coffee shop etc.

I hope your other information is rather better sourced. The "major sports complex" is the Euro Badminton Club on Soi Chaiyapreuk 2,....(edited)

I am sorry if my use of the term sports complex was wrong or misunderstood.........But it is certainly far larger than the picture you portray of it. A "back garden" sized pool? Absolutely incorrect. Go and look at it. In fact,I defy anyone to look at the photo in the PDN and then say that is anywhere near a description of a "back garden" pool. It looks to be around Olympic length, but not as wide. One badminton court? I have not seen inside but you can see from the road that the area under that roof is very considerable. There is certainly a lot more than one badminton court there. You mention the bar, but you do not mention the coffee shop upstairs? I'm told the entrance is about Bt. 60 for farang. I do not know how that compares to other centres in Pattaya. (edited)

I have been to look at it, when I was looking for a table tennis room some time ago (I can recommend the Ambassador's).

I have seen the pool for myself, rather than just a photo, and it is anything but Olympic size (50m x 25m). It is similar to one I had in my first house here.

I have seen inside the badminton area, rather than taken a guess from the road, where it is not possible for more than one game to be played at a time without one game interfering with another.

I have seen the "bar", which is no more than a usually unmanned booth.

I have seen the "coffee shop", which is smaller than my Thai kitchen.

I have compared the charges with other facilities in and around Pattaya.

You have evidently taken all your information either from the local press, what you have "been told" and what you imagine to be correct without actually seeing or checking anything for yourself.

"So, yet again, you repeat gossip and rumour. ........... You ought not to be able to make false statements without someone bringing it to other posters attention. If you or any other poster can provide any evidence that proves me wrong, I will apologise and make a contribution to a child welfare charity!"

In this case, at least, you are demonstrably and evidently wrong yet you still insist on defending your position rather than just admitting a minor and unimportant mistake - that, at least to me, has to cast some doubt over everything you post .

How much was that "contribution"?

Well, you sound suspiciously like jayjay0! But I'll let that pass.

All I can say is the gardens in your first house and your present house must be palatial. Obviously I can not comment on the size of pools in your gardens because I never saw either of them. You are also correct - I have not measured the one in the Euro Club. At my request, a friend and his wife who have lived close to Pattaya for many years drove to the club yesterday. Although their observations were restricted to the outside and the coffee shop area, in his words, "it really is a big pool – far bigger than I have seen in virtually any hotels in Thailand." He walked along its length and reckons it is probably about 30 metres. Is that about the length of your pools?Still, I am happy to apologise for basing a comment on a photo and using a "looks like" description which was not accurate. Now perhaps you will tell us how long your pools were/are.

As to the coffee shop, the comment is "it's a large space with about six tables and seating for probably 20 – 24 people, but you could easily add in another 2 or 3 tables into the space." I never made any claim about its size, since I was merely pointing out the fact that you omitted mention of any coffee shop in your original post. You will agree that any space seating 20 – 24 people with room for another 8 – 12 more is far from small. So you obviously have an extremely large kitchen. I wonder how many it can seat comfortably?

No, you are incorrect. I made absolutely no comments on the bar. I didn't know there was one till you mentioned it in your earlier post. Further, regarding cost of admission, I clearly stated that I did "not know how that compares with other centres inPattaya." So your comment is inappropriate. But again I shall be interested to learn from you about the entrance charges of some other facilities in Pattaya. One day, I may wish to join one.

Wozzit

Still here.

But this is it no sense talking to a closed mind.

I was well aware of the Japanese case. I was referring to the one in Switzerland and not the cancellation of his job there. I read it on one of the earlier posts of witch I have read them all and you have not notice I had to find the one for you. That alone tells us two things 1 you can not research the simplest of things and two my memory is not that good it was not in the first three pages as I had said my mistake sorry. Now if I can not remember something like that how in the he--l do you expect me to remember where one single post is that I gave no real notice of if I had realized you were that interested I would have wrote it down..

As for Moskovsky Komsomoletsr They may or may not be a scandal magazine makes no difference if you will reread wikipedia you will notice it says nothing about being based on lies. That being said I doubt your ability to research News papers from pre internet and communist controlled media. Not surprising it was not in the communist approved News Paper. And if it is so iffy why did a modern day respectable paper print it.

GOODBY

Hello! I don''t know how often I have to say it. There is absolutely NO case/charge/call-it-what-you-like in Switzerland. Period! It is not on any earlier post - and I have read them all not just on this thread but on all threads related to this case. And I re-read them all again when you were so certain I was wrong. So, you directed me to nothing. You ought not to be able to make false statements without someone bringing it to other posters attention If you or any other poster can provide any evidence that proves me wrong, I will apologise and make a contribution to a child welfare charity! I suggest again you don't make assertions you cannot follow up.

As to the Moscow scandal newspaper, I take it your view is therefore that anything published in a scandal magazine must necessarily be based on truth. That's a new one on me - and I am sure most other posters!

And the Welcome will pay their hospital bills, I bet

Lift Parts Made in China???

Cheap jibe! Your iPad, iTouch and iMacs are built there! More like North Korea.

Before I apologise for anything, I did in fact read that link. Perhaps you can kindly tell me exactly where it says anything about charges in Switzerland? I have read it several times and see nothing. Maybe your eyes are better than mine and you will enlighten me? But if you are referring to this paragraph -

To date, the ongoing case against Mr. Pletnev has caused the Orchestra of Italian Switzerland (OSI) to suspend their connections with the under fire conductor until the completion of legal proceedings, while his duties as artistic director of the Russian National Orchestra continue.

- you will note that it has nothing to do with any case inSwitzerland. It refers to the case in Thailand. As a result, the orchestra has suspended him pending the outcome of the Thai case. Did you say something about putting effort into investigations? Reading every single post on this thread takes some effort!

No I will not do any more research for you. following is a paragraph from that article

"As seems to be the case in any high profile scandal, various media outlets, largely Russian, have found information linking Mr. Pletnev to several other cases of paedophilia and child abuse dating back as far as the 1980's. In total three further cases have been linked to Mr. Pletnev two of which he was acquitted any involvement and a third, which he states is a fabrication and has since been retracted by the media source/s involved.

I would imagine it was the third case that was in Switzerland. I don't know where it was but I read it on this thread. I have read all the the posts on this thread and you have not notice I had to ell you about this one. Now do your own work I am not going to help you. Sorry I can't remember where it was if I could I would be happy to post it. But when you read all the posts starting with number one you will understand why it is hard to remember where every thing is.

Well, I'll help you out. I have done the research - at your request. I don't need any help, thank you. You stated very clearly there was a case in Switzerland. There is and never has been any charge/case in Switzerland. Period!

As for the Russian 'charges', I have replied in several posts on this and other related threads that these allegations were made in one Moscow scandal magazine - I repeat, one. They were never printed in any other Russian media that I can find (using two major search engines, and having talked to a friend in Moscow who has also been searching for information), and have never, ever been printed in any of the western media. If there was any foundation to these 'stories', with the massive worldwide interest in the Pattaya case - and lets remember it is in virtually every newspaper around the globe - don't you think that one investigative reporter somewhere would have dug up something more than what has been reported in one Russian scandal magazine? The few references that have appeared recently are all traced back to that scandal magazine.

SInce jayjay0 has not responded to my post #250, I thought maybe it is because it's a long week-end. But he has posted on other threads, so I assume he has failed to respond to my post because he finally realises he is wrong. Let me add some further 'research'. That third allegation, which seems so important to jayjay0 was made in that same Russian scandal mag, Moskovsky Komsomolets – and only there, please note. It claimed it had taken place in Japan – not Switzerland. Let me quote from the Moscow Times of 8 July."Several years ago, when Pletnev was touring in Japan, the parents of a Japanese boy accused him of sexually molesting their son, Moskovsky Komsomolets reported Tuesday, without citing any sources." So the only source is Moskovsky Komsomolets. This, as I have explained before, is a well-known scandal magazine on the lines of The National Enquirer in the USA, far more used to printing rumour and innuendo than accurate news. This is how it isdescribed by wikipedia: "it is now regarded as publishing sensational orprovocative items on Russian politics and society."And this is your source?

So, yet again, you repeat gossip and rumour. What other sources do you have? Since you feel this rumoured third case (in Japan, remember - not Switzerland) is so material to your point, try looking up some of the Japanese media websites. I'll even give you a start – The Japan Times, Mainichi Daily News, Asahi Shimbun, Fuji News Network and Kyodo News Service. Check outtheir archives. Then, please let posters know how much you can find about Pletnev and this rumoured huhsed-up scandal.

Oh I forgot! Of course, it is only rumour and was hushed up! Give me a break! So this is the 'evidence' on which you base your assumptions? I'll let other posters make their minds up on this one. But then I forgot something. You find it "hard to remember where everything is." Until your memory gets better, I suggest it might be more appropriate to commence your statements with "I seem to remember . . ." andthen end them with " . . . but I may be wrong."

If they were really serious about stopping this activity they would have laws to put away the BAR OWNERS for major time. This doesn't seem to be happening. Why? If the owners were under such culpability and it had real teeth in it, you can be sure there would be no underage sex workers at any of the bars. The way it is now, there will be more raids, next month, next year, and on and on, like clockwork.

As far as the drugs, I don't see how owners can control that completely with their workers. They can't drug test everyday, that isn't practical.

It isn't happening, according to posters on other sites, because the authorities make too much tea money out of the bars - all go-go bars, not just the small minority which are gay ones. As long as corruption in many of its forms is rampant in Pattaya and elsewhere, the rules will be flouted time and time again.

I still believe the idea of having two working 'international airports' is a practical and sound device for handling the overflowing. and subsequent, problems that develop when relying on a singular facility to handle it all. Many large metro areas worldwide will have a couple of international airports to direct the tide. Reopen Don Muang for half of the international flights and all of the dwindling domestic traffic.....since DM is closer and more convenient to the Bangkok destinations. Naturally, there would be argument towards transfers and distances. People would have to live with such inconveniences.

Entirely agree. But I do think it makes more sense to have Don Muang as the domestic and designated low cost carrier hub. This would remove from Suvarnabhumi many of the small aircraft which cannot get airbridge space. It would also free up terminal and runway space (since the low cost carriers use smaller aircraft requiring many more take-off and landing slots). Last year I did a little research on small aircraft v. large aircraft runway movements at Suvarnabhumi. On a typical day, there would be approx. 160 narrow-body aircraft take-offs and 150 wide body - so virtually identical. My guess is you could move most of those narrow body flights to Don Mueang without much problem

Some domestic flights could still fly into Suvarnabhumi to facilitate international connections to full service carriers. Within the region, Tokyo's Narita and Haneda, Taipei's Taiyuan International and the in-city Songshan, and Seoul's Incheon and Kimpo airports are perfect examples of airports with different functions serving one major city. Worldwide, it's quite hard to think of capital cities with a population of over 6 million which operate with just one.

I think the title goes under the "No really?" sarcastic category...

I have to agree. Long immigration lines at peak hours (it once took me 50 minutes at 07:30 in the morning), too much King Power shopping with near rip-off pricing and not enough special interest shops, more non-airbridge 'gates' than I have seen at any other major international airport, signage that is often positioned too low and so cannot be seen through a crowd - these are all easily identifiable failings. The most glaring, however, is the arrival 'experience'. I recall reading that the long pavement area outside arrivals was originally due to be covered in and made part of the building. That at least would have assured plenty of space in an area that desperately needs space, and make it rather like Hong Kong's stunning airport - but the idea was scrapped to save money. As it stands, arrivals is near chaos, with the AOT's own rip-off taxi service and touts being the only one permitted inside the customs hall (who on earth wants to pays 1,200 Baht for a taxi in to the city?), the public taxi queues being difficult to find and their poor staff having no cover and no air-conditioning.

Even worse, have you ever tried to meet family or friends at the airport? You can get nowhere near customs exit doors, and so have no idea if they will miss you by taking a wrong turning, going out a wrong exit, or mistakenly going up or down a floor.

What about departures? Every major airport has large signs on the roads leading to the terminals to advise passengers well in advance which entrance to take for all the different airlines. Suvarnabhumi once had the smallest signs I've ever seen, and then took them away. Now there's nothing. Every vehicle has to crawl to find the right entrance.

Asia has some stunning airports opened over the last dozen or so years. I can never work out why Incheon gets such high marks. I found it plain boring, but I guess it works. Changi, Hong Kong, Beijing Terminal 3 and Kuala Lumpur International are so far ahead of Suvarnabhumi, I hate to think how much it will cost to bring it up to those standards.

The headline is a bit misleading. When you read the article you find that the 3 foreigners were arrested for using/possessing ya-ba and cocaine (serious crime here) - they just happened to be attending a sex party at the time.

I don't believe that anyone who comes to Thailand is ignorant of the risks involved in carrying/distributing/using class 1 drugs here.

I also don't believe these 3 men would have been jailed for attending a sex party or being in possession of sex toys.

Seems to me that the police (at least on this occasion) did a good job.

- and maybe the CDs were hardcore porn, illegal in Thailand

If that is the case, why are such hardcore CDs sold very openly every day on the beach in Pattaya and on the streets (yes, now they are sold quite openly) in Bangkok, etc.? Why are the police perfectly happy to have them on sale in public places but unhappy that they are being shown in private residences?