domprz

Women of Tahrir Square

Mona Seif - 1 Feb 2011

"We can't go. We've lost a lot of people and we've lost them for a cause. The cause is that we want Maburak to be out!" she gasped for breath. "We can't just— We owe it to them to stick it to the end. We have many injured people. It will be very hard to move them," almost sobbing, "and we know, everyone in the square knows that if we decided to give in now they will hunt us down, one by one! We've been through this. We know it!"

Mona Seif was being interviewed by Al-Jazeerah on her mobile phone. Though almost hysterical with fear and outrage she was fighting. Her weapon was her voice firing words combining the power of passion with the clear accuracy of a sniper.

"They are shooting. There are people, some of the thugs with rifles on the bridge and they shot at our demonstrators. Every couple of minutes you find the ambulance coming, carrying wounded and every now and then you find them carrying someone dead. People were just praying over one...like, the latest of our dead protesters. He was shot right through the head. I had two friends watching this happen... I just don't understand..."

Pro-dictator supporters had attacked pro-democracy protesters. A cavalry charge of men wielding whips on horses and camels followed by a phalanx of thugs with clubs had streamed into the centre of the square. The protesters retreated in shock. They had been peaceful. There were women and children amongst them. The men had no weapons but they fought back. They fought to defend each other. It was a fight between principle and power, between motives of love and of hate.

"... The ambulances are constantly here but I don't understand. The army is right where all the confrontation is happening. They can stop this. They can stop the bloodshed. Why do we have to lose people? Why is this torture getting repeated over and over again and nobody's stopping it?"

A global television audience had watched a street battle with a reluctant detachment, not knowing which side was which. First the group from the left would advance, attacking with stones, and the right would retreat. Then those on the right would advance and the ones on the left would retreat. The eye transmits to the mind but it is the ear which is the entrance to a heart. Mona's voice pierced millions.

"We are not leaving this place till Mubarak leaves. So there are only two options for the whole world to do: Either they speak to Mubarak and his regime and you lose thousands of people in this square and it does not definitely become the celebration square it becomes massacre square or whatever you want to call it or, they put an end to Mubarak and give these people, the remaining people here, a chance at living a good life."

The protesters were fighting back, driving the thugs back. They were recapturing the street while she was capturing the world. Perhaps she sensed it as it seemed that a tone of reassurance mingled with the passion of her voice.

"The middle of the square is really safe... A lot of people are here and it's safe, like you can go and sleep there and nothing will happen but this is happening because we have a lot of people sacrificing their life at the front line next to the museum. A lot of them are teenage kids and and very few of them are older than 25 and they are really in a fighting spirit, in a resilient spirit and it's very astonishing but it really is sad, because you know that we can avoid this and they don't have to waste their lives over this and you see them going and marching to it very bravely."

The interviewer had a final question. She asked Mona whether she was reassured by a statement made by Hillary Clinton that she was shocked by what was happening in Tahrir Square.

"This is the same Hilary Clinton who a week ago was assuring the world that Mubarak and his country is stable so, no it isn't reassuring. What would be assuring for me is to hear that Mubarak is about to give an urgent speach to his people now and say he is leaving."

The world's condemnation, which followed, shamed the army into separating the two sides. The pro-dictator crowds mysteriously disappeared.

An interview with Wael Ghonim aired on internal Egyptian TV , convinced the majority of undecided locals to join the protest. The protest grew until it was irresistable.

When everyone expected Mubarak to stand down he remained defiant. Mona was one of the first to expand the protest beyond Tahrir Square, going to the parliament. Later others protested at the state broadcasting centre.

Eventually protesters gathered at the presidential palace.

Nadia El-Awady - 11 Feb 2011

Nadia describes herself as a "mother, journalist, wander/traveler, diver, climber, and skeptic of everything I've learned to-date."

• Crowd at pres palace seems upper middle class and posh. Less feisty than tahrir lot.
• Pres palace is PERFECT for protesting. There's a Costa cafe just down the street. Tahrir on other hand was deprived.
• Protesters in front of pres palace just standing around socializing. This is what I get for protesting with upper middle class.
• Not a single chant at pres palace. Posh upper middle clas tires easily. We NEED tahrir lot here!
• Advice from a protester (me): never protest with the rich crowd.

Mona and Mahmoud Salem AKA @Sandmonkey (He deserves much more than this brief mention) promised to send some "real protesters" and within minutes at least 10 000 left Tahrir Square to keep Nadia company.

• Proper protesters arrive at pres palace! NOW we can have some fun!
• HUGE cheers for the REAL protesters! Time to party!

We all know what happened next.

• Do y'all think it's all right to add "toppled a dictator" to my CV? Shows I can work in teams, I'm a perfectionist, and get the job done.

The women of Tahrir Square have given a unique charm to the ugly business of revolution. It hasn't really been replicated in the other uprisings in the Middle-East. It's largely for that reason I believe the Egyptian revolution is probably the only one with the possibility for a happy outcome. The probability is small. The odds are heavily stacked against good people like Mona and Nadia.

Though the activists have achieved something which was previously considered impossible, they haven't yet managed to do much more than wipe some of the facade off an essentially military regime. In fact the military are currently the greatest beneficiary of the revolution. Mona, particularly continues to fight with incredible passion and persistence without losing any of her charm. The more effective she becomes, the more of a thorn in the side of power, the more dangerous her situation becomes.

Mona Seif - 25 Feb 2011

• Yaaay tents are back in tahrir square. (http://yfrog.com/h7tlvypuj)
• The army kidnapped Tamer sa'Id going into the ppl's assembly building coz they were blocking the way & he insisted we've the right to pass.
• Army officer talking in an extremely rude manner, insisting we leave now.
• He is out but he is beaten up.
• By kasr el 3ini st infront of parliament. Small group of ppl isolated inside the street by the army, I'm with the group standing outside.
• A guy next to me telling his friend "Of course the army isn't on our side but we still have to say that"
• <deleted> is wrong wt the Military today? Why can't they let ppl protest peacefully?
• Just received a testimony of a protester who was detained last week. Beating up, electrocution, and special sexual harassment of 2 girls.
• I am still trying to get a testimony from one of the girls who was also with them then will post it.
• Number is dramatically decreasing by the parliament and military police encircling the protesters.
• Military police prevented my mother passage to demo and encircled her.
• This is not good. They are completely & tightly circled by military police. I can't get to them.
• @ImmaculateEdits She is, she is a fighter
• Military police removing the tents in Tahrir square now.
• They threatened wt arresting ppl, ppl r leaving,I insisted I won't leave wt out my family, I think I will be left alone.
• Screw them! Screw the military wt all its members! Screw them 4 not tolerating ppl peacefully protesting!
• Military police detained @Sarahcarr @nickalexandra and someone else on a side street. So far they're ok.
• My mother defeated the military police and they let her pass to the demo.
• My mom is awesome! She made them let me in.
• Wow mama complained that one military guy pushed her, they send a big shot military guy to apologize to her.
• They are dispersing ppl wt violence from Tahrir square, ppl r being chased by military police.
• @cairowire @liamstack @Sarahcarr tahrir square has been completely evacuated.
• Military police r threatening us now, they have orders to evacuate, ppl should either leave or risk getting detained.
• They snatched 2 of us.
• They released the detained, and the big shot army guy is apologizing and hugging him!!!!
• The army is now asking ppl to leave, 1st nicely, then now angrily in the mic.
• Here we go again, they r pissed and they encircled us again.
• Beating and electric tasers , we've been evacuated.
• kidnapped another we insisted we won't leave wtout him, young officer was abusive then a bigger 1 came & shouted at them to get boy.
• We are safe, they released the boy, he was badly beaten up, his face was bleeding.
• We saw them kidnapping one on the side and kicking the crap out of him,we'd scream & say they r beating him they say no they aren't.
• Some protesters are injured and on the street, @RamyRaoof and other there sent out for medical help for them.
• Reminder:Protesters were out 2day becoz Shafik's Cabinet & emergency law still exist, statesecurity r back, detainees weren't relased.
• One of the detainees who was just released say they r detaining a lot of ppl. All are beaten up badly.
• The army were extremely hostile,constantly threatening us wt detention but they refrained coz we had an old woman wt us AKA My mother.
• They threatened to take my mom as well, only an older officer intervened & told him not to touch her.
• @Elazul @Trackerinblue I don't know the difference. They were like black rods, & their sound itself was scary enough
• Thats what they used RT @saversaver25 http://bit.ly/h2O8Lj that's a stun baton. similar concept 2 tasers & cattle prods.human torture device
• I translated the brief testimony of detention & torture of last week http://tinyurl.com/633z2w4.

Mona's twitter link is http://twitter.com/monasosh. Follow her. She will inspire you. One day she may need your help. Her blog is http://ma3t.blogspot.com. Her interview is on youtube

• I am extremely exhausted,though it hurts me to think of abandoning twitter for the rest of the day, I have to watch me disappear 1 2 3...

Aaaaarrrrghhh! Another 3BB day

Seems to me to be the height of cruelty to their call centre staff that they play a shouted recording of how wonderful 3BB Hotspot is when the only reason we're calling is because they are the opposite.

Just had the engineer on the phone...He tested the line, reset the router and the satellite is working fine according to him. As he was on the phone, the TV stopped working. Tested the internet on two different computers and internet is ok. Tried the hotmail sign in page all day still same problem................."MSN is experiencing technical difficulties".

I told him about the problem of other TV subscribers in the CM area. He knows nothing about it personally and there is nothing on the complaints log from CM!!!!!!!!!

Good luck

They've worn me down. I've given up complaining. The phone calls to them were costing me more than my internet subscription. I've changed my habits. If it works fine. If not, and it's urgent, I go down to the local pub - enjoy a Chang and access the net from there. They obviously don't use 3BB. Unfortunately I'm in a situation where I can't choose another operator.

Last time I got a decent response was when I demanded to speak to a director of the company as it was clear that the management was useless. They didn't put me through to a director but my line magically improved the following day.

It seems that they do know what the problem is but consider it more profitable to do nothing about it.

Where is the competition?

It takes about 2 weeks of phoning too complain three times per day (asking them to reboot their server) for about two weeks to get some decent response in Chiang Mai. Then it seems that they redeploy equipment and get great response for a month or so before someone else's complaints mean that I seem to get the same old server and same old problem once again... and the cycle repeats

Uninstall any adblocker plugin or software, that's likely the problem.

I discovered that "predictad" had infected my browser to the extent that it was being called even when I viewed simple html that I myself had written. It was taking up unnecessary bandwidth (slowing response) and I'm offended by being spied upon.

I initially used the firefox feature to prevent it storing cookies on my computer. That seems to have caused this problem.

I've installed "addblocker plus" and it seems to have solved it (whilst retaining my block on predictad cookies).

In future I will avoid sites which use google ads as much as possible.

Clarrification: Calls to predictad.com are made from a browser add-on called 'autocompletepro'. So it's not the fault of google-ads. It can be disabled and removed.

Uninstall any adblocker plugin or software, that's likely the problem.

I discovered that "predictad" had infected my browser to the extent that it was being called even when I viewed simple html that I myself had written. It was taking up unnecessary bandwidth (slowing response) and I'm offended by being spied upon.

I initially used the firefox feature to prevent it storing cookies on my computer. That seems to have caused this problem.

I've installed "addblocker plus" and it seems to have solved it (whilst retaining my block on predictad cookies).

In future I will avoid sites which use google ads as much as possible.

I'm confused. Why would anyone want to get married if they haven't even met the future spouse yet?

What browser and version are you using?

Have you tried with another browser, Firefox, Opera, Chrome, Safari etc?

I'm using Firefox 3.6.13. I haven't tried with another browser as it only happens on thaivisa.com and then only on some of the posts. This is one of them. I think it has something to do with the black newsfeed strip at the top misbehaving.

A little more info - (if anyone is attempting to fix it)

The page loads fully and then the black square covers a third of the page from the top down.

When I go to the very bottom of the page a new section has been added after the thaivisa copyright banner.

It contains an animated gif of a moving wheel and if I move my cursor over it the words 'prev' or 'next' appear and at the bottom right an X with 'close'

The topics without a problem don't have anything under the copyright banner.

The other interesting thing is that when I started typing in this reply the black box remained at the top but has now disappeared.

What browser and version are you using?

Have you tried with another browser, Firefox, Opera, Chrome, Safari etc?

I'm using Firefox 3.6.13. I haven't tried with another browser as it only happens on thaivisa.com and then only on some of the posts. This is one of them. I think it has something to do with the black newsfeed strip at the top misbehaving.

I've had exactly the same problem in the last few days. Only on thaivisa.com and only on particular topics.

Ah it has just happened on this one.

I don't argue.

I just explain why I'm right.

The Thai economy has bloomed and diversified. To ingratiate oneself with a foreigner is only one of the options for escaping poverty. Perhaps that's why Thais don't seem to smile as much as they used to.

This may be off-topic but picture a split scene:

On the left is Mark45 with Thai girls sitting on his lap, forlornly holding an empty whiskey bottle.

On the right is Bermondburi with his children sitting on his lap, equally hoping for some attention.

They're not going to get any. The two men are busy writing to each other with as much care as they would write love letters - no spelling mistakes or errors of grammar - careful attention to the construction of paragraphs and the comprehension of their replies.

They could easily get a smile from those by their side; another bottle of whiskey or another game but they prefer to write to each other. They love the challenge.

That's the way I see it. I'm not criticising. It's interesting. It makes me wonder whether Thais smile less at us because they have learned that we don't or can't see the challenge behind the surface of their smile?

Pure speculation of course

I don't have a computer at home and I have a lot of free time at work so it gives me something to do, and what better way to spend your day than on Thaivisa. As for the English, if you're going to write something then you might as well do it properly. I take that as a compliment.

You're right to take it as an implied compliment. I enjoy your posts and your verbal tussles with Mark are entertaining. It's obvious that you both stimulate each other at a social/intellectual level despite, or because of, the communication being antagonistic in nature.

I guess my (obscure) point was to illustrate a potential quandary in cross-cultural relationships. It's that you probably understand and communicate more effectively with Mark than with your wife, simply because you have a similar background and a good command of the same language. Same for her and the Thais she socially interacts with.

It's not a show-stopper but worth a thought or two.

Also, if you live in Bangkok it might be worth mentioning that you can get the Laos visa done there before you go and it used to be cheaper than at the border . 600 baht I seem to remember. Not sure if it still is. It also saves a lot of time because I've been before where it can take two hours for the Laos immigration to process your visa on arrival.

Normally it does not take much time on the friendship bridge.

Unless .... and this is the caveat .... a bus of kids from Khao San road just arrived. Of course these kids don't know how to fill out the forms and then it can take forever to just process this bus.

Happened to me last time and no fun at all. Not talking about the dense smells.

First time I was at the friendship bridge I had to wait two hours as well. It was too short. The Laotian customs official was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen. I just wanted to stand there and stare at her the whole day.

What is the name of this 250 baht a night gaff in Vientiane?

Here's the details of a much nicer place. I think the cheapest room was 200 baht per night. When I arrived this time all rooms were occupied except the 800 baht per night ones. Try booking in advance.

Orchid Guest House

33 Fangum Road

Ban Mixay

Ventiane

Laos

tel: (856-21) 25 2825

fax: (856-21) 21 6588

You have to fill in the address and phone nos of the place you're staying at in Vientiane on the Thai visa application form. I always use this one regardless.

The place I stayed at the last time is just around the corner if you walk past Orchid guest house with the Mekong River on your left. It's between a coffee shop and an internet cafe. It's called the Youth something...

same story with the tuk-tuk (except that they filled in the forms and included transport to the bridge and onwards to my choice of address in Vientiane for total of 400 baht)

$35 needed for visa normally - extra 50 baht or $1 if outside office hours or on a Sunday.

Really 400Bt?? Must go up and down with their mood, I got the buss from Pattaya, You know it really pays to read a little first and wise up ,The money these visa runs can scam off you or even still if you think you can save money by doing it yourself still doesn't protect you without knowledge of the scams and they are thck as and well heeled at their trade. I'm sure this posdt will help fellow travellers ,I,m still learning too !! "thanks! for your input!

If you had not assumed they were trying to scam you; you would have discovered that they were offering the same to you as to me. Laos customs charge (for british passport) $35 visa entry fee. You can pay in baht but it is at the exchange rate of 50 baht to the dollar. I'll leave the arithmetic to you.

There is a word to describe over-active scam detection. It's paranoia. :jap:

Bitterness and regret are the result of disillusionment.

The facile solution is to have no illusions but then there would be no dreams and no magic and Thailand without them is not Thailand.

Have an adventure. Give the illusions a chance, because some of them may not be, but don't get attached to them unless they have clearly proved not to be.

To be out of the clutches of Western culture and not yet within those of the Thai is a rare freedom which can help you redefine your life without the pressure of family and society and the temptation of one-upmanship.

Take stock of your values and situation regularly and you will do just fine. You seem honest enough with yourself to enjoy the journey.

I wish you well.

If it is a border run for a non-imm-multi, that seems like an awful lot of pain to go through. Cheap ticket to Singapore and back. No cost for most people for Sg entry. No 16+ hours on busses. Public transport into town to do a bit of shopping OR just fly right back out. (Same idea for KL etc)

There really is a thing as being too cheap

I like travelling. I like the journey.

It means meeting the kind of people I don't normally meet. I could look out of the window and see the mountains and jungle in the moonlight. It inspired a pleasantly mysterious mood. I had fun speaking to the different people I met while waiting for the bus to to Nongkhai. I experienced the hillarity of a woman, her baby, and a beautifull schoolgirl with a wedding ring on her finger on the Udonthani-Nongkhai bus. I got lost walking to the embassy because I didn't take a taxi and discovered a huge market without a single foreigner and some lovely innocent and friendly Laotians (not at all like those in the city centre). On the way back I met a Swiss businessman who runs a farm in the Alps as a hobby. He had spent a few weeks in a tiny Isan village and he showed me some fascinating photos of how the Thais process rice using ancient equipment. How is it that the Swiss don't need visas to stay in Thailand?

My point is that I wouldn't have had those kinds of experiences while being hermetically sealed in an airliner. It's not a journey. It's a transfer.

I've tried both ways and I prefer the cheap. There's more life in it.

You don't say where you caught the bus from. I went on Sunday for a tourist visa

VIP bus from Chiangmai to Udonthani +- 600 baht (very comfortable) leaves at 20:00 arrives about 07:00 next morning.

local bus from Udonthani to Nongkhai 35 baht ( earliest one left at 8:30 and took over an hour )

same story with the tuk-tuk (except that they filled in the forms and included transport to the bridge and onwards to my choice of address in Vientiane for total of 400 baht)

$35 needed for visa normally - extra 50 baht or $1 if outside office hours or on a Sunday.

Arrived at destination in Vientiane at noon - would have been too late to apply for a visa if I had been planning to do it on the same day.

Stayed in low-budget 1 bed room in Vientiane with en-suite bathroom for 250 baht per night.

I've been before via AYA minibus which got me there in time to apply for the visa on the same day (cost 1800 baht - return + 200 to get me from the bridge into Vientiane)

I preferred the more leisurely way - didn't feel like my life was in as much danger as on the AYA trip.

The Thai economy has bloomed and diversified. To ingratiate oneself with a foreigner is only one of the options for escaping poverty. Perhaps that's why Thais don't seem to smile as much as they used to.

This may be off-topic but picture a split scene:

On the left is Mark45 with Thai girls sitting on his lap, forlornly holding an empty whiskey bottle.

On the right is Bermondburi with his children sitting on his lap, equally hoping for some attention.

They're not going to get any. The two men are busy writing to each other with as much care as they would write love letters - no spelling mistakes or errors of grammar - careful attention to the construction of paragraphs and the comprehension of their replies.

They could easily get a smile from those by their side; another bottle of whiskey or another game but they prefer to write to each other. They love the challenge.

That's the way I see it. I'm not criticising. It's interesting. It makes me wonder whether Thais smile less at us because they have learned that we don't or can't see the challenge behind the surface of their smile?

Pure speculation of course

At 33 you are only a child in an adult form.

Gracias El Patron. You make me feel young again.

Which part of Thailand are you in? Any examples?

I'm in Chiang Mai.

Overall, I see a lot more long faces around than I would have hoped... Waiters / waitresses, shop girls, people on the street. Some people are pleasant but they are definitely in the minority. Many are indifferent at best and some are downright hostile in their attitude. I take it many are sick of foreign tourists... Not too hospitable. The difference between tourist areas and more local thai areas appears to be negligible...

Having moved to Chiang Mai from Pattaya about a month ago I find myself agreeing with this statement 100%. I've also spent time in Ubon - there I'd rate as the friendliest place I've been in Thailand. Indifferent would be the word I'd use to describe Chiang Mai residents I've dealt with. Not unfriendly but not warm either. Very businesslike. I get a few smiles here and there but they are in a small minority. I am still enjoying it here though, but I guess before I moved here I just had higher expectations, thats all.

I've been in Chiang Mai about seven months now, and I've gone through a few stages:

The first was the novelty of people smiling. It seemed that everyone looked me in the eye and smiled. The women particularly seemed to enjoy my admiring glances.

The second was when I stopped believing the sincerity of the smiles. Then it seemed to me that the only people who smiled at me were those who were after my money.

Now I seem to understand which are the commercial vs genuine smiles and I see a lot of them. Perhaps staying here has changed my attitude because even the falangs have started to smile at me now. Strange but true.

i think someone may have tried to say here:

economy politics whatever, the thais will find a way to party dance smile and have a good time

i will give away a private secret i learned by accident

you want smiles and attention from thais?

buy spicy somtom from a street seller

thais absolutely love it!!!!!

if you want more attention, walk down the street eating it

they will not leave you alone

eat and buy like a thai

especially issan food

if the thais see it

they will make friends with you right away

maybe its just me but it is charming how much sweet attention i get

and of course speak some thai

thais are very proud of their food language culture

and they will love you for it

economy escronomy

politics schmolitics

exports schxmports

who cares if you've got 30 baht and just bought some spicy somtom

oh and something else

buy a small gift or food for a local thai you know or see at your place of residence or wherever, you want to see a big smile????

Thanks. A gem. Hopefully there are more like this, not like the last few posts #57 to #60

try smiling first

The truth is in general that Thailand has gotten much more sour in recent years. There are lots of factors, many of them political and economic in nature which is obvious if you follow the news.

I think a big reason for them becoming more sour as you say is because they have to deal with the types of farang/indian/african guys who come to Thailand- and lets face it a large protion of them are fairly scummy, angry and unpleasant people , no wonder the thais are less inclined to smile to foreigners...

I agree, anyway it goes along with my feeling that if you avoid the tourist areas, they still are friendly and smiling.

I'm a loner, but every now and then even I get lonely. All I need do is walk down a street, look a Thai in the eye and give a smile. It comes back with interest. The falangs on the other hand invariably avoid eye contact, therefore are not even aware that they've been smiled at.

Yesterday I recognised a girl from a massage parlour that I've frequently walked past, it was at a gogo-bar a few hours before opening. I was intrigued and asked her what she was doing there. She does auditing on a freelance basis. I felt a little guilty about not having gone to her for a massage and promised to do so. She said that it was not necessary but she and the other girls would like me to stop by and chat to them whenever I have the time. I was a little surprised. She said the reason was that I always returned their smiles while most of the other falangs look away and walk past with long faces.

In Thailand, more than anywhere else that I've been, you get what you give.

Which part of Thailand are you in? Any examples?