nomade

1.

The variety of coffees grown in Africa is incredible.

No problem at all with that one Bob. It's perfectly acceptable ... just like the number of wines and cheeses produced in France is incredible.

2.

The different softwares on my computer are not compatible.

Personally that sounds wrong to me. I'd say "The different types of software on my computer are incompatible"...

3.

Have you obtained all the permissions that are required?"

Again I don't think that sounds right. I'd say "Have you obtained all the authorizations that are required?"

Note that when I disagree, I say "That doesn't sound right" ... obviously somewhere in my head I have assimilated "rules" that tell me this without my having to check it in a grammar book. However your assimilated rules seem to be different, which is quite interesting!

Conventional grammar explanations are rarely entirely satisafactory. To say that a grammar rule is both simple and accurate is usually an oxymoron. The way we try to describe "grammar" is obviously flawed ... I often feel there are some other rules that nobody's noticed yet. How come children learn to speak languages effortlessly and perfectly in a relatively short time with no formal grammar input at all?

Finally, I agree that there are many different "Englishes" and that just because we teach "standard" English doesn't make the other types less worthy. And I noticed while teaching TOEFL that there are many differences even between "standard" American and British grammar. There's also the fact that what is accepted as "correct" grammar changes over time.

Point taken, as a newbie in Asia, I bow to your superior local knowledges!

*wai*

given the correct situation - almost all uncountable nouns - can be countable!

Here we go... I knew it! Hehe

Bob, you have made some excellent points and I agree totally that grammar should be taught in small doses and within context. But I disagree about the last bit you wrote! In what circumstances could words like ...advice, information, software, luggage, furniture, accomodation, permission, laughter etc ... be countable?

Mikey, it sounds like the mistakes your student is making are probably due to first language interference. I don't speak Thai but I'd guess articles aren't used in the same way as in English? A lot of language learning involves students "noticing" things. (The ahhhh!! factor) It's usually better if you can get students to notice grammar structures on their own rather than just telling them. Give loads of examples and see if your student can work out the "rule" for herself ... she'll remember it better if she does.

Do you mean that at the moment you're NOT using articles? I really think you're doing learners a disservice if you "simplify" sentences into things like "red apple on table". It's much better to use articles naturally so that you are constantly giving examples of correct usage.

It's a pretty complicated area of grammar when you start looking at the details and it wouldn't be appropriate to give a young learner loads of rules and exceptions to learn. A lot of mistakes can be prevented if students apply two basic rules though.

1. All singular countable nouns need an article.

2. Uncountable nouns and plural countable nouns take no article when talking about generalities.

I'd recommend first trying to get the concept of "countable/uncountable" nouns across. It's the basis of so much English grammar.

(Yikes, remember that food thread a week or two ago? )

How easy is it to get ELT books locally? Books are heavy and I don't really want to be lugging mine around with me while I'm travelling about looking for a job! (Well maybe I could manage one Ludlum for you KK )

On a separate note, can anybody recommend a good grammer book?

You're more in need of a good spelling book, mate!

Now now, let's be nice!

Jack, I've used the trusty "Practical English Usage" by Michael Swan (OUP) for years. It covers just about every grammar problem you're ever likely to meet and is written in clear non technical language.

If you want a book that combines grammar points and exercises then there's "How English Works" by Michael Swan and Catherine Walker (OUP) or the old classic "English Grammar in Use" by Raymond Murphy (CUP).

Agree and disagree on that one. Learning a foreign language is good because it makes you, as a teacher, realise how tough it is for the learners to remember stuff. On the other hand being fluent in the learners' language is not always a good thing IMO.

I'm totally bilingual in French now but I was crap at French at school. I only really started learning correctly when I went to the Alliance Française in Paris and sat in a class with people from about 10 other countries. The only common language was French and we had a brilliant teacher who repeated and repeated and repeated until we were ready to move on to the next stage. Must have been as boring as ###### for him but we learnt almost effortlessly and after about two months of daily lessons we could start communicating effectively. Compare that to my French teacher at school who spoke perfect English and didn't teach me a thing in 6 years.

Peace Blondie, there's a CELTYL course at the British Council now apparently.

Who is that petulant bad mannered doctor person?? People were having a civilized (on topic) chat and he barges in and tries to stir things up?

Strange admin you have here!!

I read recently that the British Council in Bangkok do a distance DELTA orientation course every March. I don't know how good it is though! What does "orientation" mean?

Strange! I keep seeing ads on Ajarn which specify age criteria with an upper age limit, sometimes as low as 30/35. I presume it's because they're more interested in what their teachers look like than whether or not they can teach. Mind you, they do have some wierd stuff in some of the ads. Like this one the other day....

Applicants need not be married but qualified and experience is a must

British Council teachers don't pay tax, but then they don't have WPs either!

Eh? Why not?

There are many more, far more important, things about English composition than worrying about word order when all the words are in the sentence, in places well enough to comphrehend their meaning, unlike this sentence.

Right on. If a split infinitive sounds better then split it. Language should be a creative tool that you can use like an artist's paintbrush to best express your thoughts, emotions, poetry, humour, whatever. Perfect grammar kills a language. Look what happened to latin.

LOL!

My wife's and my resumes/ My and my wife's resumes/ My wife's resume and mine/ Mine and my wife's resumes/ My wife's resume together with my own/ My own and my wife's resume

Duh!!!!! How about OUR resumes?

kenkannif, aren't you confusing subjects, objects and possessive pronouns here?

my wife and I's resume

I think that's wrong. You should use a possessive form as IJWT says.

Fred and I (or me) went shopping

"I" is a subject, "me" is an object.

Fred and I went shopping -grammatically correct

Fred and me went shopping -grammatically incorrect , even though native speakers say it.

Hmm ... That politeness thing ... you may have a very good point there. Don't think I've seen it mentioned in a grammar book but it does seem to affect the grammar.

Fred and me went shopping. Remove the "Fred and" ... and you get:

"Me went shopping" which is obviously wrong.

HOWEVER, if put yourself first then you get:

"Me and Fred went shopping" which sounds uneducated but acceptable to a native speaker.

On the other hand

"I and Fred went shopping" sounds decidedly odd to me?

What do you think?

I often see people advising that it's best to avoid "office politics" especially when female ajarns at universities are involved. What exactly do people mean when they say this? Just general back-biting or is there something specific to watch out for?

Err.... no? Hehe

As a "simple" (ahem) rule when talking about generalities:

1) Use the plural form of countable nouns (no articles)

eg. I like chips, oranges, bananas, kiwis, hamburgers, pineapples (whole fruits) ....

2) Use the uncountable form otherwise. (Don't confuse singular and uncountable BTW)

eg. I like meat, sugar, rice, jelly, pineapple (flesh) ....

I said I wanted it pedantic? WHERE?

Ah well, at least you didn't give the obvious answer! LOL.

My god. I'm a newbie here. Is it always like this?

PS IJWT, I haven't actually started teaching in LOS yet. Where does one get a supply of live bunnies for teaching purposes from?

English grammar was invented so that English teachers like us (read nerds! )can argue about it! The more you think about it, the more convoluted it gets, yet 6 year olds can master it.

Well, just to be awkward, I don't think it is grammtically correct kenkannif!

Is the meat that hamburgers are made of called hamburger? No, it's called ground or minced meat and "meat" is uncountable.

Will this ever stop?

(PeaceBlondie, Sat 2004-09-18, 01:14:12)

-But if you can't count them concepts like "acceptability" or "patience" as a general virtue - or grapefruit as a food category - then they can't be plural.

IJWT, I was merely questioning how useful an explanation like this one by PeaceBlondie would be to a class of students! Can you count grapefruit(s)? Can grapefruit(s) be categorized as "food"? A bit confusing no?

According to the dictionary, grapefruit can be a countable OR an uncountable noun and has TWO acceptable plural forms. If you are thinking about an "unspecified quantity" of grapefruit flesh then it should be treated as an uncountable noun. If you are thinking of whole fruits then the noun is countable.

It's not the "s" or lack of it that's the real problem ... it's the rest of the sentence structure.

Fewer/less grapefruit is/are eaten by children than adults.

Choose the "right" answer? It all depends on what you want to say!

PeaceBlondie, I can count grapefruits. I have three in my kitchen right now.

Look it up in the dictionary:

(OUP Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

grapefruit....noun (pl. grapefruit or grapefruits) [C,U] a large round yellow citrus fruit with a lot of slightly sour juice ....

I was just pointing out the fact that this topic is a bit... hairy! ( )

There are some fixed grammar rules. For example, some words like "information" and "furniture" are always uncountable in English (but not in many other languages). However a lot of grammar seems to consist of trying to explain "exceptions" to the rules. I think native English speakers USE grammar to convey (often very subtle) differences in meaning. Nothing to do with rules. Most text books don't look at grammar like this. For them there is "correct"" and "incorrect" grammar. The OP's original question perfectly demonstrated how flawed this idea is.

PS. 'Course a hair/hairs/hair are different! If you say "He's got hairs on his head" what image does that conjure up? Is it grammatically correct?

Kenkannif.

You can use "a" with a singular countable noun when generalizing. It means "that class of object/thing" and has an almost identical meaning to the plural countable noun.

An elephant never forgets

Elephants never forget.

But the OP is talking beginner classes here!

Well, "I like kiwi" doesn't sound OK to me roadie!

In fact, now I come to think about it, I wouldn't say "I like banana" either. (Unless I'm talking about banana flavour or something) I wonder if there's different usage depending on where you come from? I'm a Brit BTW.

Can't you say both "I like banana" AND "I like bananas"? Depends whether you're eating, say, mashed up banana as in a banana pancake (again indeterminate quantity) or individual fruits. Same with mango/mangos. If you usually eat a whole mango, you'd say "I like mangos".

Presumably it's a low level class so you can't have too complicated an explanation. Your big/small idea is simple but I don't like it too much because it doesn't help with the concept of countable/uncountable. All these fruits can be countable under certain circumstances. They aren't uncountable per se. ("Grapefruits" does sound wierd, but I checked and it is both C and U!)

Hmm .. how to teach this. Maybe ask the students if they could eat a whole fruit in one go? If yes, then countable. How many can you eat? (one, ten) If no, then uncountable. How much can you eat? (a little, a lot)