lukestyles

Simple solution is to make acquiring a work permit easier then tax people on their earnings instead of on 50,000 baht a month. Surely that way they will probably end up making more money. But that involves long term thinking which isn't big out here.

Cheers Arkady

I knew there were ways around it but as you say it's pretty impractical as it involves a primary employer officially employing you in all of your gigs so that is not really a permit to take your music on the road or jam in different venues. If you have to apply to the relevant authority through your primary employer that kind of cancels out the impromptu jam sessions does it not?

Knowing Thai bureaucracy it probably takes a few weeks and costs a few thousand baht to add a new venue to your work permit so it's probably rather expensive and time consuming for a DJ or musician to take on gigs

As for qualifications I don't see how they are relevant for DJs and musicians. dam_n most of the best entertainers dropped out of school to spend their formative years getting high and playing tunes : )

Yeah well this is the land of smiles, Singapore you play on Orchard Road and nothing will be happen, even if People give you Money, walk in some places in Penang and Play, nothing stupid like in Thailand will be happen.

Change the Country maybe then they wake up, which I doubt, fits in to all the other stupid and nonsense Visa rules.

In Thailand I can live in heart of Bangkok with access to a swimming pool for less than 200 pounds a month.

Singapore is almost as expensive as London and the only foreigners I know who live there are from rich families or they are stock brokers and marketing executives.

Singapore is not for the average joe who wants to live on a budget and play some tunes. A place like singapore is where you go to start a business empire, become a derivatives trader or property magnate not sit around strumming a guitar for some free beer.

I will stick to Thailand until Singapore gets a tad cheaper thanks

It depends if you are serious about being a legal musician. If you are teaching English and playing 1 gig a month, forget it. However, if you are playing regularly and it is your main income, there are people who can get you a WP.

Of course you can apply for an entertainers work permit, but you have more chance of getting a BJ from the pope. The only way to get this is by having a contract of employment from a venue, or from agents who specialise in getting work permits for Filipino musicians/singers.

By the way, the 50,000 Baht requirement does not apply to musicians. When I had my WP from the Hard Rock Cafe in Bangkok, I had a look at the contract that was submitted to the labour dept, and the figure was a lot less than 50K.

@sausageandmash

What you are saying?

That you can't apply for an entertainers work permit unless you know the right people?

If that is the case then I was right, officially the only way to get a work permit (without knowing the right people) is by starting a business which involves employing 4 Thai staff and paying tax on a 50,000baht salary which is too expensive for most musicians etc

So an entertainers work permit is just a fairytale?

Then the only other options are being employed by the venue (not bloody likely), signing up to an agency (pricey) or starting your own business (very pricey)

In my experience from Phuket none of the venues (from the big hotel chains to the nightclubs) will supply work permits unless you are very lucky, it is all left up to the performer to arrange and even if they did you would still only be legal to work in one venue as your work permit is tied to that one location.

The agencies who get permits for the Filipino cover bands hit the Farang performers in the wallet hard.

Most of them want 20% of all earnings in Thailand plus tax on 50,000 baht a month whether you earn or not. This is without factoring in the lawyers fees, non immigrant 'b' visa plus flights and hotels for visa runs.

Essentially you are talking 50,000 baht outlay just for permit paperwork and non 'b' visa before you even think about handing over 20% of all earnings plus your flat pack tax..

So anyone who wants to try becoming legal via an agency or by starting their own business would need a good few quid in savings before they could even think about it.

The only affordable option is finding a venue generous enough to put you on their books officially but in my experience this is very unlikely.

Most entertainers are lucky enough to find any venue to pay them a salary, shopping around for a venue that will also sponsor your permit would be like searching for a needle in a haystack. Anyway even if you miraculously found that venue the permit would be tied to that one location which is pretty crap for a performer who wishes to take his music on the road or get involved in an impromptu jam session so it wouldn't rectify the state of affairs in Chiang Mai.

The Thai immigration and employment law is designed to discourage people on lower budgets and unfortunately that includes most performers.

If they want music, art and culture to come to Thailand they need to change this or declare Thailand a strictly high end destination where only the most accomplished of entertainers are welcome but the high end talent tend not to move to places where there isn't any vibrant underground scene.

So Thailand has a catch 22. They want to be seen as a hub of cultural vitality whilst discouraging all but the wealthiest entertainers.

Sorry Thailand you can't have one without the other lol

@sausageandmash

What you are saying?

That you can't apply for an entertainers work permit unless you know the right people?

If that is the case then I was right, officially the only way to get a work permit (without knowing the right people) is by starting a business which involves employing 4 Thai staff and paying tax on a 50,000baht salary which is too expensive for most musicians etc

I'd guess that most Chicago mic nights involve performances by US citizens, or those with permits to do so. If a Thai with a USA tourist visa gets up, sings, the crowd ask for more and he sings again, hey, that's work and he's breaking his visa. No difference here to that scenario.

But ultimately, I can't argue with your point. If the Thai authorities believe that playing music for free in a bar is 'work', then you have to have a 'work permit'.

Your permit is only valid as long as you earn and can pay tax on 50,000 baht or over a month. If you are working for free then you are not earning the required 50,000 baht a month therefore your permit is not valid and you are officially breaking the law.

tell me if these guys offer monthly fixed payment to these scumbags - will there still be the raid? .......

would say "nope"!!!!!!

The thing is the venue can grease the palm of the local police but that wont stop immigration swooping down and arresting everyone if they get a tip off.

I have even seen the local police take payment then come back a few hours later to close the night down and threaten everyone with arrest because a local with contacts higher up in the police was jealous at the amount of customers in the bar so requested that the police snuff out the night. And this was in a 5 star resort so it wasn't like they were dealing with the average shmo without money and contacts.

I have also seen a bar pay the police to be left alone but the resident DJ was jealous of a foreigner getting his gig so immigration was tipped off and arrests were made. No convictions though just money with menaces. Monkey house or dough.

There really is no sure fire way of ensuring you don't get clobbered by the authorities, even with all of the relevant permits in place and bribes payed, a jealous neighbour can put the kibosh on precedings by making up a story about drug use on the premises or just by having better contacts than you.

So not only is the law being used to discourage foreign entertainers it is used as a tool of revenge by competing businesses and performers.

How can a musician who is jamming for chicken change and free beer be expected to pay the 50,000 baht to acquire the 'b' visa and permit then employ four Thai staff and cover the tax on a 50,000Baht salary? A musician is not a rich businessman, the work permit requirements are aimed at wealthy foreign investors and are set up to discourage people like musicians and DJs who might be living on a budget.They either make it easier and cheaper to work legally or they openly declare Thailand as a foreign musician/DJ free zone.

It's crazy. Why would a guitarist jamming in a boozer need four Thai staff and have to pay tax on earnings he couldn't realistically earn with some casual jamming? It's so expensive and difficult to get a Thai work permit the venues will not do it and even if they did that would only mean the musicians could work in one bar not take their music on the road thus maximise their earnings to cover their hefty tax burden.

If they want to encourage music and culture in Thailand permits for creative people should be a lot easier to attain and they should be taxed on their income not taxed on a flat minimum of 50,000 baht a month. Also why is it more expensive for certain nationalities to be legal than others? The Thai work permit system penalises people who are from certain nations and they are all aimed at rich investors who are starting businesses not musicians, artists or designers.

They either tailor the work permit system to allow expat musicians, DJs and artists to ply their trade or they declare Thailand a no go zone for foreign entertainers.

The current set up is wide open to corruption and closes the door on creative people who want to live in Thailand on a budget. If I'm wealthy and I want to open yet another busy go go bar, time share business or high end resort then the work permit system is relatively easy and cheap but if I'm just a bloke with a guitar then I can forget about it. It's quite plain that Thai immigration and employment law is designed to encourage big money investors and discourage the average joe on a budget. Only the lucky few musicians, vocalists and DJs are wealthy so it is as plain as the nose on my face that the Thai authorities don't want foreign performers here just more wealthy suits in condos and on the golf course.

The work permit requirements are just a blunt way of saying "If you have ample money to invest in Thailand you are welcome if you don't piss off"

I know breaking the law is never correct but when they make it so difficult to be legal people are bound to try to find ways around it. It's just human nature. In the current set up it's easier for a foreigner to legally work for a time share scam stealing peoples money and bothering tourists than it is for a performer to do something constructive by bringing their craft to a bar for some free beer and a couple of thousand baht.

Scammers can afford the Thai staff and the tax on the 50,000 most performers can not.