SamHuaHin

I am seeking some updated advise if possible:

My Son is now 8yo and was born in Australia to a Thai Mother, os has Australian Passport and Birth Cert.
We were not and have never married, and separated 3 years ago. She lives in Australia with a new family, and visits us once a year here in Thailand.
I need to get the Legalisation of Child process done, she is fully on board and agrees, no issue there.

We tried to do it when she was here in January, but the local (Phuket) Amphur said they could not as we needed to have our Son registered as Thai, meaning he  needed to be on a Tabien Ban document. I tried to get this done before she left and had all PP and BirthCert docs translated and certified and send to ChianG Rai where her family was, but by the time it was done she had to leave, and so we could no re-present at the Amphur.

So all I have now is a photocopy of a Tabien Ban with his name on it.
Doing some more research I found that apparently she does not need to be there, as the Amphur will contact her and ask for her agreement, which is needed within 60 days, or 180 days if she is overseas. 

Apparently this is in the THai Legal Code in book 5 under Family and Parents, I dont have the Thai link, but I refer to this text apparently translated from the Thai.

"In case where the child and the mother do not appear before the Registrar for giving the consent, the Registrar shall notify the child and the mother about the application made by the father. If the child or the mother has no objection or does not give the consent within sixty days after receiving of the said notification, it is assumed that the child or the mother does not give the consent. The period of time shall be extended to one hundred and eighty days in case where the child or the mother has been outside of Thailand."

So what I am wanting is to hear form anyone who has done this and knows whats needed.
I am assuming all I need isa certified copies of all our passports and our sons birth certificate, the tabien ban copy, and contact details of his mother in Australia

The official form is this one, so I suppose she needs to sign this also, and have it witnessed in Australia?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/llx3qlwtxlac1zj/Thai Form - Legitimization of Child Father 1.pdf?dl=0

Any help appreciated!

 

Hi Joe Thanks for this info.

So if I arrive with a 3mth nonB then I can seyup the new company and apply for a WP immed, then before the 3 mths is up head to KL etc for a renewal?

Will the new Visa be a 12mth NonB or a 3Mth NonB ?

if I have to apply for a new 3Mth every 3 motnhs this will get expensive, it needs to be a 12 month with the 90 day re-entry

I used to live in Thailand for many years and held NonB's via my own company, but I closed that when I left 5 years ago,

Now I am coming back and will need to do same again, as I will be doing work in ecommerce and software development.

I used to get 12 Mth NonB's in Australia before but now they only issues 3 months.

So my question is - is there any advantage in getitng a 3 MOnth NonB before I come ie. will it make the 12 Month NonB easier/cheaper?

If not I will not bother and just get tourist visa when I land.

Can anyone suggest a good cheap honest (choose any 2!) lawyer in Phuket, or anywhere that can do a Phuket WP?

Regards

Sam

re "Since all are in Australia I would get the written agreement in Australia, not Thailand. You would not need to do anything in Thailand regarding legitimization or custody agreement."

I dont think this is the case, under Thai Law I am not the legal Father until either a consensual declaration is done at the local Amphur with the ex and my SOn, OR a court judgement is made to that effect.

Pretty sure it doesnt matter whats in place in Australia *legally* - sure the courtts there would consider the Australian status if it went to court, and would probably be heavily influenced by it, but it doesnt have any legal status on its own.

What makes you think an Australian legal status hold legal status in Thailand?

Re legal Father, so you are saying that I do not need to do anything in Thailand to get legal rights as his Father, IF I have these legal rights in Australia?

This is not what I have read elsewhere or what the Thai Lawyer is telling me - they are saying the legal rights for both Father rights and Parenting Agreement in place in Australia is not valid in Thailand, and we need to do a Thai version of same via the courts, as a cost of 150k (with Legitimisation process) or 100k without.

Now I am totally confused re whats needed.

Mario you are really helpful and seem to really know this stuff, have you been through it yourself? or how do you know it so well?

Yes I have read elsewhere that the Thai Judges are very fair on matter of children, good to know.

Actually my Son was born here in Australia, not Thailand, if that matter re his Thai Passport.

So you are saying that she cant get a Thai Passport without our Son actually being physically there?

Thats good to know, a big sigh of reliefe this end...

Also when you say I need to formalise the custody agreement, do you mean here or in Thailand?

We have no official agreement here, as she was ok with just 2 days a week, and I with the 5.

Do I need to get the Parental Agreement in place here before doing anything in Thailand ie. as a source document/precedent?

Or do I just need to do this in Thailand ie. with Thai Lawyers

Also, there has been a new development.

When we seperated in Jan this year I had legal advise and learned that she could not legally take him from Australia, as she does not have custody,

I say legally, as if she had had his passport she could in fact take him, but would be breaking the law (not that it matters once she has done it)

I was also advised she is unable to obtain another Australia Passport without my consent, and was advised to hold his passport.

However, I learned that if she was able to get hold of a Thai Passport for his then it would be easy for her to leave with him (also illegally), so I immediately contacted the Thai Embassy here and they advised they would not issue a Thai Passport for Child unless they sighted verified court documents giving her sole custody, but they did warn that due to corruption, she may be able to get the Thai passport if she goes back to Thailand. As we know connections and bribery make anything possible there.

She has just advised me she has to go back to Thailand this Tue for an "emergency", I asked if this was now instead of the planned trip in MArch, she said no she was still going then also.

I asked was anyone in the Family sick or what was the reason, but she would not tell me why, so its *very* suspicious as to why the sudden trip back, esp. given money is tight for her.

So my next question is - is it possible to find out if a Thai Passport has been requested/issued for my Son?

As I am not the Legal Father in Thailand, i see no precedent for Thai Authorities to have to tell me.

Any comments appreciated!

Thanks

Sam

ps. should I post these questions here ot in the LAwyer section?

Mario,

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

From what I have read I understood the the Legitimisation process is to have me recognised as Legal Farther, but that it doesnt give me Parental Rights beyond that, but you are saying it does give me equal rights?

I know that in Australia due to the young age of the Child, most of the time the Mother gets heavily favoured, is that the case there also? (that not been to case for me as I have been the "Primary Care" giver past 2 years ie. doing mealtimes, baths, school dropoff/pickups etc)

My main concern is - what happens in the interim period between when I arrive with him and the court hearings? ie. during this time, I still have no legal rights, and I suspect I am totally vulnerable during this time.

How can I be protected when I first arrive?

Sam

Hi

I am VERY interested in your experiences with the local Courts not using a Lawyer, a sI have been quoted 150,000 by 2 and 100,000 by one!

My situation is here

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/776429-family-law-in-thailand-for-overseas-born-child/

Thanks

Sam

Thanks for that info, some prudent googling came up with a wealth of good info, such as:

http://thailawonline.com/en/family/children/custody-of-a-child-thailand.html

So I now understand there are 2 steps:

(a) being recognised as Legal Father (3 ways to do this) and
( getting Parental Rights (court seems only way)

For recognition as the Legal Father (Legitimisation of Child) the options seem to be:

1. marriage - not an option now :-)
2. registration at amphur - needs Mother agreement, and Childs agreement if over 7, sometime less

3. petition courts - using various proof such as photos, documents, DNS tests etc, many options possible

The problem is, this will require me being there with my Son *before* I have any legal protection or rights.

I have asked a few Thai Lawyers via email, all have said it needs Court and will cost 100k-150k BHT, very steep for me at this time, as also have the costs of a relocation back to Thailand in Feb 2015.

In my 8 years in Thailand I have learned that most official things dont need a Lawyer at all, just a trusted local Thai to help do forms and speak to local official.

Is it possible to do this yourself?

Has anyone done this?

For the Parental Rights

I cant find much online but the Lawyer that repleid said I will need the Australian Parenting Agreement (we dont have one as we verbally agreed with no problems - me 5 days her 2 days), as well as supporting documents from Centrelink (social security) re Parenting Payments, school enrollment forms, and other stuff that may help.

Has anyone experience with gaininy Parental Rights via the Courts?

What did you need to provide to the court?

DId the ex need to be there?

Did the Child need to be there?

how long did it take?

What did it cost?

Also, if I do have to go to Thailand before anything is in place in order to attend Court etc, how open am I to her excercising her still current full rights there and then?
ie. can she try toi take him form me as soon as I arrive and before the Court hearing?
Can she stop me returning with my Son to Australia?

Any help really appreciated, as I dont have much time left to get something in place, or I will have to delay the move, difficult do do as I have project work starting there in March.

Sam

Yes its the safest options, but its not easy to have this restriction lifted, a lot more than having it put on, and the court does not like this to happen, and will be unlikely to reinstate it again.

Thats why.

I has orders done about 4 years ago and it was a quick process to get them. Last year I had them removed but that was a complex process. The AFP would only remove them after I produced a parenting order on the removal approved in the local court. They took the view that the original order which included an agreement to lift the AFP order had a slight ambiguity to it and their legal section refused to lift the order without further court instructions. Lesson is that it's quick and easy to get and difficult and time consuming to hae lifted. Like you I had to choose whether I wanted the certainty of an AFP prohibition order or the option of taking my daughter on an overseas holiday, I chose the order. Other complexity I that when travelling as a single parent with a child countries seek proof you have the mothers permission. I carried the custody orders with me. Hope this helps mate.

I had a call back from the Thai Embassy in Sydney today, they assured me that

- both parents need to be present at the embassy for a new passport application for a child

or

if one parent shows they need to show Court Orders showing full custody

also

- that it cannot be applied for via mail to Thailand

That said, I am thinking now maybe I dont need to put the AFP Watch in place?

Thoughts?

Seems most of my Q are answered here:
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/660903-thai-passport-for-an-australian-born-child/

Looks like she can get the Passport for him from here, so I think I will go ahead with Airport Watch List.
I also just learned that in Thailand I have absoutely no rights as Father as we were not married, as stated by MArio2008 a few months ago:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/711467-can-a-child-born-outside-of-marriage-have-the-fathers-surname/
"Your brothers problem is that he is not the legal father of the child. To become that he would indeed need to marry the mother, but there are two other options to become the legal father.

1. both mother and child confirm that he is the father at the amphur (child must be around 7 years old to do so).

2. go to court and asked to be recognised as the legal father of the child. This can take a few months

Also while Thailand has ratified the relevent section 26 of the Hague Convention
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=states.details&sid=130

They are not a full Member, and having lived in Thailand for many years I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the legal system there and so would not want to depend on them supporting their ratified obligations in a reasonable timeframe or at all.

So I will proceed with the Initiaiting Orders as per the DIY kit here:
http://www.familylawcourts.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/FLC/Home/Forms/Do-it-yourself+kits/Initiating+Application+Kit+%28do+it+yourself+kit%29

Had anyone been down this Initiating Orders path before?

Thanks for all the good advise, appreciated.

I have had legal advise and am aware of the Initiating Orders Kit which is used to request Orders via the courts, including the Airport Watch List, and am considering doing this soon.

I have already added him to the Child Alert via DFF which stops a passport being issued:
https://www.passports.gov.au/Web/ChildAlert.aspx

But it doesnt stop a foreign passport being used, this my Q re possibility of her getting him a Thai Passport.

I have not yet filed for Airport Watch List yet as it will also stop me from taking him overseas to see his Grandfather and extended family in Italy, somehting thats planned for next year,
and I would need to go back to the Courts to ask for it to be lifted, and apparently the Courts do not like doing this and would be unlikely to put it back on again if I had it lifted,
as far as they are concerned it needs to be either ON or OFF, and I understand this as they have better things to do than change this order all the time.

The reason I am keen to know if a Thai Passport can be issued from Australia is that I found out the ex flew to Sydney to the Thai COnsultate last week, so something is going on.

If she cant get him a Thai Passport then I am happy to leave orders as they are, but if she can, then I will urgently seek a Airport Watch List order.

Hope this clarifies my position.

Does anyone know if she can get him a Thai Passport form here, or does she need to go back to Thailad to do it?

Thanks

I am Australian and recently seperated from my Thai Partner, we have a 5yo Son who was born in Australia and has Australian Passport and Nationality.

What I am wanting to know is:

1. Can his Mother apply for and be granted a Thai passport for our son with out my involvement or consent?

2. Can this be done from a foreign country ie. Australia or does it have to be done in person in Thailand?

I ask as I am concerned she may be planning to do this and try to take him to Thailand, and while my Lawyer advises this is illegal, it doesnt stop her from doing it, unless I request via COurts a block by adding him to the AFP Watch List.
I am also advised that f this does happen then Australia can have him brought back here by way of the Hague Convention, of which Thailand is a full member, but I expect it could take some time.

Any information of Q 1 and 2 above appreciated.