Overcome

Twice this week I have authorised online transfers from my Australian National Australia Bank account (transfer details already set up) which appeared in my K Bank account within 4 hours - same day. Impressive. A week ago a SWIFT TT from the Bank of China in Beijing took 3 days from being confirmed as sent (with me sighting all the routing numbers so I knew the funds had been sent) to be credited to my Siam Commercial Bank account. According to SCB they had not received the funds.

Arrange funds from your PayPal account to a Thai bank and the funds are debited immediately but take 5-7 working days to be credited.

What does this all teach you?

Money does not vanish. It doesn't lie in cyberspace or limbo and if it's debited in one place it's credited elsewhere and telegraphic transfers are instant. My experience between National Australia and K Bank shows this.

In the case of SCB they (like many banks around the world) receive all inward transfers into a holding account and choose to take 3 days to credit it to the recipients account. This is a massive mountain of free cash for the Bank and a core part if their business model. Assurances by staff that the money hasn't yet arrived means the funds have not yet been credited to the recipient but don't be fooled into thinking SCB doesn't have the money - they are simply using what isn't theirs to make a tidy profit and it is a dirty fact about banks in many countries.

As to PayPal, this criminal organisation has developed greed and deception to Himalayan proportions, managing to dupe regulators and customers with atrocious multiple level charges amounting to usury, customer service that makes the State Railway of India look impressive, a judge, jury and executioner approach to issue resolution that would make Genghis Khan look moderate, capped by the shameless rorting of customer balances by paying zero credit interest, sitting on the funds for at least 5 days before transmitting them, and charging clients an exorbitant amount for the privilege of being screwed by them.

These circumstances will not change until customers revolt and say 'enough'. Even though I'm forced to take what I get many times I for one refuse to go down without a fight! BTW this is NOT a situation that is unique to Thailand and can be seen in some of the most developed and sophisticated economies in the world. Corporate greed transcends cultures and borders.

'It is a model of hand grenade we haven't seen before, and think it comes from North Korea. A nasty piece of hardware it raises the stakes from ball bearings or traditional fragmentation shrapnel to hundreds of vicious sharp cones making this the most lethal anti personnel device imaginable'

Perhaps it was the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?

Agree, but don't think it is a Ponzi scheme of any sort.

Yes, fair enough - I was getting a bit carried away.

I want to know if the hospitals will ask for your credit card first before they treat you. Isn't that the standard for treating all farang when they end up in the ER in thailand ?

Yes, you are correct. No different to the way local citizens are treated.

If your point is hospitals are run as businesses in Thailand then I agree. But if your point is that we poor farangs get shafted and treated differently in terms of being expected to pay or show proof of ability to pay before being treated at private hospitals then you're wrong.

Try strolling up to a hospital admission desk in the US without a medical insurance card or other proof of ability to pay or make a security deposit and see if you would be treated any differently.

The difference though is that in the USA a hospital must provide "stabilizing care" for a patient with an emergency medical condition. The hospital must screen for the emergency and provide the care without inquiring about your ability to pay. This is the law under the Emergency Treatment and Labor Act, they cannot turn you away if you need emergency care. In Thailand what would they do if you were unconscious and time was of the essence. I wouldn't want to be in this situation they may or may not treat you or just let you linger until they figure out if you can pay or not.

I wasn't aware of this so glad you made the point and I stand corrected. I don't know how that compares with Thailand.

There is no reason why there would be any restriction on a foreigner taking out such a plan.

This style of life insurance where cover plus a savings component are bundled together has almost vanished from western markets - for a range of reasons which all revolve around the fact that despite the outward impression this us attractive when it is put to the test this style is poor value and inflexible for the customer.

But it's a winning combination for the insurer and the agent - in this case the bank. Now for the dirty inside secrets.

The economics of this type of contract are built on at least three things the insurance company knows beyond a shadow of doubt but the client is normally blissfully unaware.

The first thing is that its costs to you are front end loaded which you can see in the premium vs surrender value - year 1 you pay over 100k in premiums and your surrender value is less than 8k and after 2 years and 200k in premiums your surrender value of less than 70k means more than 140k of your money has been taken in fees - probably 100k to the bank in commission and the insurer takes the rest spinning the line that you have to pay the set up costs and it's actually cheaper to front end load a plan than charge annual fees at a higher level for the next 50 years.

The second thing the insurance company knows all too well Is that the average life span of this style of contract is between 5 and 7 years, and with half of the contracts hone by year 7 the rest fall off year after year leaving only a paltry few running the full course.

The profit margin is huge for policies that last 5 or 10 years because the insurer has up front captured the majority of the expected profits over a 50 year contract and this all gets crystallized within 10 years or less. It's cynical and shabby but that's how the company makes serious money and it's in their interests for you to surrender early - but they pretend otherwise.

The third thing they know and hope you don't is the amazing effects of compound interest and the long term investment return expectations for the economy. They are banking on you not making any comparison between their projection and what you could achieve in an alternative.

From year 5 onwards they are projecting an annual net return of 3% after the cost of the annual life cover of 1.5 million baht which is negligible. For 45 years they have to give you 3% a year while they are free to use your money to make whatever they can - and pocket the difference.

But the real problem is the way compound interest works the fact that your first few years see your money pillaged without mercy and the lost value when it is projected over many decades is huge.

If after year 1 you received even 3% on your 100k invested instead of interest on just 7.5k, and this was repeated in the second and third years it may not appear huge at the year 3 mark but if you start projecting this 20 it more years ahead it will become a bigger and bigger paper loss. Wherever you come from in your home country this sort of plan is un-sellable partly because it's just so poor but also most likely regulations would not allow such a contract to be offered and even if it were the person selling it would end up in prison for what effectively amounts to a scheme to defraud you in order to get paid a commission.

But every insurance company on the planet, given the chance, will go for the jugular in developing markets and cream super profits from this sophisticated Ponzi scheme as long as they are able.

By now you're perhaps wondering if I think this is a good investment or not. Well, if you are the insurer or the bank it's a winner. But if you are the customer it's like being mugged, beaten and left penniless in the gutter while the perpetrators get in their BMW's and head off to their Rotary meeting.

Your options? For Pete's sake stay clear of the offshore and unlicensed agents and investment advisers many of whom place ads on this website and monopolize Google searches because the Thai expat community is to them what the annual migration of fur seals is to a pod of Orcas.

Take on a regular contribution non contractual savings plan and buy term life cover. Talk to a reputable Thai registered investment adviser or broker or one in your home country.

Never deal with an adviser outside your country if residence or your home country - and never with an adviser operating in Thailand that is mot fully authorised and licensed by the local regulators - Thailand is one of the places that has more than its fair share of less than ideal advisers. Oh and don't fall for the impression that your bank has any regard for your best interests and needs, and you should always treat insurance companies the way a lion tamer treats his lion - never turn your back or put yourself in a position of vulnerability unless you want to get eaten.

As a result of Monday's bomb tragedy and the number of people (locals and visitors) injured or killed, this has made me curious about how insurance companies would treat a claim arising from an incident like this under the terms and exclusions for typical policies - travel insurance, health/medical insurance, personal accident insurance and life insurance.

This resulted in me downloading a dozen or more full policy terms and conditions from a range of well known insurance companies - Thailand registered, and others registered in Hong Kong, UK, Australia, the US and 'Offshore'.

Life insurance cover seems quite straightforward and other than an exclusion for suicide inside the first year or so, it seems that you are in most cases covered for death by any cause or under any circumstances.

But for travel, health and PA covers things are not so simple and there are a whole basket of things you are NOT covered for ... like claims arising from riding a motorcycle without a helmet, acquiring sexually transmitted diseases, reckless behaviour like having sex without a helmet on, or having sex on a motorcycle whether helmeted or not, having sex with multiple helmets, and so forth.

There are many different types of wordings and in many cases the interpretation very easily could be that a claim wold not be paid if you were a victim of something like this bomb - and I would be very interested to hear from 'offficial/knowledgeable' sources within the insurance industry exactly how these things are interpreted.

• firstly, it is quite common to see an exclusion for claims arising from a location or an event that fits under terms like war or warlike activities (whether war is declared or not). The definitions vary from policy to policy but I would like to hear it straight whether Monday's bombing in Bangkok would be considered war, warlike activity, etc - in which case the insurer would decline the claim
• then there are numerous additional exemption terms that differ from one policy to the next. Terms like insurrection, civil disobedience, riot, acts of terrorism etc. It seems to me (but would like this verified) that the interpretation of these terms is pretty broad and if it's the insurance company making their own decision then an incident like Monday could be lumped under quite a number of exemption clauses
• then in a few cases I came across some quite disturbing exemption phrases and these rules out the insurer being responsible for paying a claim as a result of political upheavals - whether lawful or unlawful - such as a revolution, coup d'etat, or political power struggles that involve more than just a few grumpy questions in parliament. In some cases 'martial law' was specifically mentioned as an exemption clause and given Thailand is currently still in a state of martial law I guess the only conclusion would be that policies from those companies are effectively worthless in Thailand
• in the case of some exemption clauses for travel insurance they were triggered if the claim occurred as a result of the traveller going to a country or region that their home country has issued a 'do not travel' notice. Taking an Australian example I found that the Australian Government has a 'do not travel' notice (as opposed to a number of warnings or suggestions to reconsider your travel plans) for Thailand's three most southerly Provinces. I wonder how many Australian clients of this insurance company are unaware of this fine print and travel to or through these areas in the mistaken impression they were covered?

One thing that comes out of this very clearly is when it comes to insurance of this nature - don't make any assumptions and check out the terms very carefully. It's worrying that in many cases well known insurance companies don't actually provide their detailed terms to prospective customers and you may only find out about what's not covered after you have purchased the policy. Insurers reassuringly say in most countries there is a cooling off period where you can get your money back if the policy doesn't match what the agent promised you ... but that's really not a great solution and I would be inclined to the view that if a company doesn't post its full terms and conditions so you can make an informed decision before you buy, then they are probably hiding something and I would go elsewhere.

I know many people will have strongly held views on these issues they would love to share totally irrespective of the facts (and I guarantee despite this subtle sarcasm will find it impossible to resist the urge to share their lack of knowledge) but what I would really like to hear from on these questions is an identified individual such as an insurance company or reinsurance company CEO/regional/country head who is in a position to provide some authoritative answers and doesn't want to hide behind the cloak of anonymity.

They want to do it this way so Thai Hospitals can still cheat the foreign Insurance Companies by dishing out fake maximum bills ... An insult to the victims but so typical for this country ...

Do you have any evidence of this or is this just a general throwaway comment because you know it must be going on? I expect the latter and the only thing that would be typical of is another farang with preconceived negative attitudes toward Thailand, a willingness to pontificate and act as judge jury and executioner without the need to be aware of the facts, because the facts are irrelevant if your mind is already set.

Social media is how the majority of young Thais supposedly get their so called ' news ' and how many will question what they read ?

Mind you official spokespeople are hardly the most reliable either.

For those fortunate enough to read English of course they could obtain reliable and authoritative information by reading this forum.

I want to know if the hospitals will ask for your credit card first before they treat you. Isn't that the standard for treating all farang when they end up in the ER in thailand ?

Yes, you are correct. No different to the way local citizens are treated.

If your point is hospitals are run as businesses in Thailand then I agree. But if your point is that we poor farangs get shafted and treated differently in terms of being expected to pay or show proof of ability to pay before being treated at private hospitals then you're wrong.

Try strolling up to a hospital admission desk in the US without a medical insurance card or other proof of ability to pay or make a security deposit and see if you would be treated any differently.

I suggest PrBkk research the 800 odd firemen and other rescue workers during 9/11 who have died since the event and their claims before talking about accepted conventions during and after disasters

Be that as it may and I appreciate you aren't disagreeing with my previous comment - however you are talking about an event that occurred in the USA in 2001 ... this is Thailand in 2015. I know this might come as heresy, but what might happen in the US doesn't always create the precedent for the way things should happen everywhere else in the world. Let's get back to the issue that is being debated here - some people think that the Thai government is being stingy with the amount of compensation being offered to everyone injured or the families of those killed - but I don't agree and think it's quite in line with what would be expected anywhere in Asia and instead of criticism and trying to impose on Thailand what you would expect if this was Washington, London, Ottawa or Canberra offer some congratulations for the fact that this compensation announcement has been made quickly, and as far as I understand to all victims regardless of their citizenship.

Incredibly insulting to injured persons. No way these amounts will cover even 20% of damages and out of pocket expenses for anyone....these injuries should be treated free of charge.

Get off the grass. This is a generous gesture and entirely in line with what Thai social welfare and medical benefits are. The Thai government isn't to blame for this event and they are under no obligation to have even done this. Now let's talk about whether there were overseas visitors who were victims who did NOT have travel insurance - in this case that's all they will receive, but that's the choice that some people make when they decide not to take out travel insurance ... And when you boil it down why should it be the responsibility of the Thai taxpayer to stand the cost of a foreigner who decided they didn't need or want to pay the travel insurance premium?

Nonsense. It is an accepted convention in these tragedies that , at the very least, costs will be covered. In this case we see a tacky schedule of payments, totally inadequate, I'll-timed and ill-considered. Intentions are good but ...it would have been better to simply say we will look after everything and families shouldn't worry.

Accepted convention? Don't talk utter rubbish. It might be what you would like to see happen but don't go confusing that with reality and then attempting to put a veneer of plausibility over it by clutching at a phrase like 'accepted convention'.

You might as well have made the argument that it's enshrined in law - well, maybe not the actual words but the general vibe of the thing.

Simple operation with 1 day overnight at a hospital Sukhumvit soi 3.

110.000 Baht.

Its a big joke, most foreigners should have insurance for Thai people i feel sorry.

You can't use Bumrungrad Hospital as a benchmark and then pluck an unsubstantiated figure out of thin air like this and not expect to be challenged for presenting a totally distorted example that supports your view without expecting to be called out for what amounts to deliberate deception. 110k baht for one night in a Thai hospital is no more representative of the true position as is the cost of a McLaren F1 a good guide to the cost of a typical car.

Incredibly insulting to injured persons. No way these amounts will cover even 20% of damages and out of pocket expenses for anyone....these injuries should be treated free of charge.

Get off the grass. This is a generous gesture and entirely in line with what Thai social welfare and medical benefits are. The Thai government isn't to blame for this event and they are under no obligation to have even done this. Now let's talk about whether there were overseas visitors who were victims who did NOT have travel insurance - in this case that's all they will receive, but that's the choice that some people make when they decide not to take out travel insurance ... And when you boil it down why should it be the responsibility of the Thai taxpayer to stand the cost of a foreigner who decided they didn't need or want to pay the travel insurance premium?

This immediate focus on commercialism, making unfounded promises of 'taking control of the situation' - grubby, pathetic, unseemly.

Aww, come on. This is what an official comment would be from an equivalent person in any country in the world under similar circumstances. What do you expect them to say? There is no justification for taking a swipe at this comment unless your aim is to prove you've got a chip on your shoulder in relation to Thailand - because a comment like that says more about you than it reveals about the motivation of the person who made the comment in the first place

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Swimming instructor wanted to teach 3 children from same family ages 4, 7 and 8 in the Apartment building pool. Located cloSe to On Nut BTS and Tesco Lotus. Please PM me with details.

Thai friends are interested in having their 17 year old son spend a year studying in New Zealand - either 7th Form (Secondary school final year) or a University/Polytechnic Diploma course.

Can anyone direct them to good quality, objective information about the options, costs, procedures etc ... ideally in Thai but we know it's more likely to find such information in English.

Thanks - any advice or referral to information sources would be appreciated.

In the immortal words of Spike Milligan money does not buy happiness, but does get you a better class of enemy.

A Google search for this company reveals they are an Insurance brokerage that is tied up with similar operations in Hong Kong and Singapore.

A lengthy news release on their site explains how they have an exclusive arrangement with Falcon Insurance to sell their car insurance in Thailand.

How you can be a broker but then have an exclusive relationship with just one insurer puzzles me... Because that's actually defined as an agency.

There's nothing wrong with an Insurance company offering their products on a direct basis and doing so aggressively. But there's definitely something wrong with deceiving the market pretending to be a broker but in fact operating as a sole agent.

In the insurance game in thus part of the world you need to take care and not accept things at face value. In my book, any crowd that starts off deceptively - like the offshore health insurance brokers pretending to be local - gets disqualified at the starting gate because they declare at the beginning that they take a flexible view of the truth.

I was with LMG Pacific and have moved to Pacific Cross when my policy renewed - it's exactly the same company that was in partnership with LMG and I was happy with LMG Pacific so equally happy with Pacific Cross. The new product is basically the same but there are a lot more options than they had previously. I checked out my alternatives before making the commitment to renew with them and in my view Pacific Cross offers the best cost/benefits on the market. I've experienced a claim through an overnight hospital stay and that involved me giving the hospital my health insurance membership card at admission and that was all there was to it - all the costs were within the allowed amounts and I just got a copy of the bill showing me what was done but the charges were all paid by the company directly. No complaints from me.

I had not given that a thought - does it run as a program under Windows 7? Would an i3 powered PC have enough grunt? My Windows PC only has 2GB RAM but that's easily upgraded - what would you suggest? My Mac hard drive is still ok so could possibly connect that as am external drive for ease of use if the PC will run this. I guess the program is as easily available as any other software on DVD at the regular hole in the wall monument to Intellectual Property in Thailand? Thanks for the suggestion and interested in your comnents.

My MacBook Pro has died - an honourable death after more than 4 years of almost constant service and being moved constantly. Most files are backed up but without a Mac they aren't of any use to me and it will be a month until I can afford to replace the machine (30k baht for the repair of my current machine doesn't seem smart).

Does anyone have an idle MacBook Pro, Mac Mini or iMac up to say 4 years old they would be open to renting to me for 4-6 weeks subject to agreement on cost and satisfactory security guarantee? I'm Bangkok based.