JustCauses

Remember the bodyless head hanging from the Rama VIII bridge a couple of years ago? That was ruled a suicide.

When there's a decapitation, two words come to mind: Russian Mob.

America's 50 year 'War on Drugs' has been a trillion dollar failure. Thailand follows the US note for note on drug laws and policies, and has also been failing in that regard.

It is amazing isn't it, how the solution is right in our faces, however our egos or is it total corruption that prevents us from fixing the problem...America has failed in its war on drugs, sorry but it is true and the truth hurts...a few of you reading this might even work for the DEA, yeah your busting your butts, however as we've seen in the long run you are failing....Supply and Demand (yes that simple) eliminate the demand and the supply will dry up....if the U.S. had taken all of the money being wasted in the fight and put a drug clinic on every corner and stepped up the drug education programs then all the crap going on in Mexico would essentially disappear...legalize with common sense and educate...hard to believe we have even evolved this far as humans when we still approach problems like cavemen...

To all you just kill'em people, really, F off arm chair warriors, shut up and go back to your freak'n history channel...

It's hard to build a Police State when you spend the money on rehab clinics. The DEA is not in Thailand to remove drugs but to maintain a spy presence. The government doesn't care about winning; they just care about fighting. The president of Mexico declared a Drug War a few years ago and it is tearing Mexico apart. If anyone actually cared about the victims they would go after the organizations that facilitate the growing/ manufacturing, transportation, distribution, and 'protection' of drugs. If you remove the availability of drugs, you will have no users.

This is a good, realistic and Thaksin-free way to look at the issue. A war on drugs, in its essence, is a failed proposition indeed. The question in the end is how much hypocrisy we can take -- anywhere. Unpleasant as it tastes to political palates, decriminalization measures should at least be considered and debated. The bottom line is this: take the profit out of drugs and you've taken out the criminal benefit. Of course, that will never happen, which only erodes the non-rule of law even more. Still, it's interesting that this thread is one of the more active -- and cynical -- ones in the forum. It's really not Thaksin's failed policies that are at issue here for they are bad window dressing; rather, it's everyone's party being ruined in costly, dangerous and unjust ways. All of that said, the sad fact is that foreigners here get away with far more drug use and narcotic mischief making than do Thais. Case in point: disco pee pee tests -- the lights come on, the cups come out and farang are usually escorted to the door leaving the locals as the only accountable souls. Contrary to what another poster said that this new war on drugs will somehow unfairly target farangs, the Thai reality is that Thais -- likely the poor and defenseless -- will suffer (again). Intended or not, drug wars always target the poor. Sure, there will be a token farang bust here and there, but in the end it's not expats who will pay any appreciable part of the price of what is certain to be a dubious undertaking. It's not Thaksin, it's not Chalerm, it's a forked-tongue world society that just can't get real about the issue, regardless of any Thai nuances or hijinks. It's a global failure about to get hyper-localized in a bad way. Just don't think that it's somehow going to be at the expense of the white man.

TWT -- Thailand White Trash: A farang fugitive or practising criminal.

Well, Tartagni is not a swedish name. Though Carl Gustav is. Tartagni sounds italian to me.

Not much in a name anymore as people have immigrated all across the globe. One of the most common family names in Australia is NGUYEN. (Asian origin Viet/Chinese)

A foreign criminal by any name has no place in Thailand.

Geratrickid raises a most important point -- this is a developing story and all of the facts are not in yet. That said, please consider:

1. The loss of life is always a terrible thing, regardless if it's natural, accidental or criminal.

2. The sensed increase of the possibility of violent crime in Thailand, whether founded or not, is real. In five years of living here, I've heard a lot of talk about this among expats, which leads to the next point.

3. I have heard many times -- from expats, not Thais -- something like this: "Do you know how easy it is to get someone killed here?" Think about it: What kind of expat would go around saying that kind of thing in the first place? Probably one who contemplates such things: contract killings.

4. Expats who talk this kind of thing, whether seriously or out their <deleted>, should be punished and made examples of. It's no way to behave as a guest in a foreign country and it contributes to the tarnishing of this country's image.

5. It's easy to blame the police (BiB, as they're derisively called), but their only role is after the fact. What about before the fact, like behaving responsibly and not being part of this kind of thing in the first place. Preventing crime starts with not committing crime or associating with criminal elements.

Of the three elements of a homicide -- motive, means and opportunity -- it is probably the second (means) that is most troubling if foreigners are involved: The poverty of locals is being exploited to carry out dirty deeds, and that's a shame. I refer again to point no. 3 above, where farang talk of the ease of getting someone killed in Thailand. This attitude needs to stop and people even talking about it should be punished. In our home countries, merely talking about doing these kinds of things could be crimes.

It's not okay to kill someone, have someone killed, or blithely talk about how easy it can be done in Thailand. Treating this kind of talk so casually contributes to the ruin of this country's image, so the next time you hear it please consider the kind of company you're keeping.

There's nothing light about a killing -- or talking about arranging one. In the end, crimes on foreigners here will be greatly reduced by foreigners behaving themselves and conducting themselves properly.

Do you really expect that the atitiudes of a few foreigners will change Thai society? Are you really that naive? Let me relate to you a true incident.

When I first came to Thailand I met a lovely lady, working in a laundry to support her children. I convinced her to return home, look after her children while i supported them, with a view to later marriage. As soon as she returned home, her former de facto wanted her to live with him so that he could get the money I was sending her. As he was a local "heavy" her family was unable to assist.

I sought advice from a Thai living in Aus (my thai language teacher) - his first reaction was "it won't cost much to have him killed.' When I rejected this, his second response was "Go to the local police, give them B5,000, and they will sort it." What does "sort it" entail? Depending on the police prior interaction and attitude anything from a warn off, 20 years in prison for whatever crime fits, or a shot dead resisting arrest.

The kind of company that I was keeping was a university educated Thai national living abroad, who was giving me Thai lessons in exchange for help with colloquial English. So either this man was full of <deleted> talking about his own country, or it's some newbie TV poster. After many years here, guess who I'm backing?

Dear Mr. OzMick,

I appreciate your comments and I readily admit curing this problem is much, much easier said than done. I realize it runs deep and cuts many ways. It's just that in five years of living here I've become disgusted by these sorts of things. Yes, I am naive -- in the sense that I am hopeful good farang will take a stand. You seem like a nice, well-intentioned chap who wants to do right by others -- I respect and applaud that.

As a farang who respects Thailand and its people -- I have never had the first problem with a local -- I want to do what I can to help rid this country of foreigners here who are up to no good. Will it solve the problem? Not entirely, but it will go a long way in setting a tone that is long overdue among expats. We are guests here, and we should grin and bear those things we don't like, and at the same time we should never capitulate to lawlessness. Back home, many of our countrymen snicker when we say we live in Thailand -- they assume we're up to no good. Expats living in Japan, for example, doubtfully get that sort of response. There are those of us here who are honest and not out to start any problems. Why should we suffer for bad foreigners who involve themselves in bad things?

How could anyone treat talk of killing another human being as par for the course or somehow okay? That's all I'm trying to get at.

Thanks,

JC

Dear Mr OzMick,

Allow me to add a few more points to consider:

1. I am not talking about how Thais (here or abroad) talk about their own country. I'm talking about how farang here talk about their host country. I believe there's a difference, and a foreign guest has heaps of gall to think they're above anything here -- including the life of another. What is indigenous to Thais are things we cannot quarrel with, whether we find them endearing or abhorrent. What I am getting at is encouraging farangs to behave better and expect better of other expats and leave things Thai to the locals.

2. I am also trying to help eradicate stereotypes, like that foreigners living in Thailand are bad. It's as bad as the same kind of simplistic thinking that says all Americans are dumb, that all Aussies are born criminals, that all South Africans are bigots and that all Englishmen are humorless. None of these premises are fair, are they? And aren't they best overcome by raised awareness, proactivity and vigilance?

3. The good of Thailand far outweighs the bad and it is unfortunate that these stereotypes persist. The events in Phuket last night don't much help. What amazes me is how fast farang posters on TV were to blame locals. It's almost as if it's assumed. In the end, farangs are at the root of most farang problems here.

Okay, I'm naive. I'm also hopeful that most farang here resent these kinds of stereotypes, as well they should.

G'day, mate!

JC

Geratrickid raises a most important point -- this is a developing story and all of the facts are not in yet. That said, please consider:

1. The loss of life is always a terrible thing, regardless if it's natural, accidental or criminal.

2. The sensed increase of the possibility of violent crime in Thailand, whether founded or not, is real. In five years of living here, I've heard a lot of talk about this among expats, which leads to the next point.

3. I have heard many times -- from expats, not Thais -- something like this: "Do you know how easy it is to get someone killed here?" Think about it: What kind of expat would go around saying that kind of thing in the first place? Probably one who contemplates such things: contract killings.

4. Expats who talk this kind of thing, whether seriously or out their <deleted>, should be punished and made examples of. It's no way to behave as a guest in a foreign country and it contributes to the tarnishing of this country's image.

5. It's easy to blame the police (BiB, as they're derisively called), but their only role is after the fact. What about before the fact, like behaving responsibly and not being part of this kind of thing in the first place. Preventing crime starts with not committing crime or associating with criminal elements.

Of the three elements of a homicide -- motive, means and opportunity -- it is probably the second (means) that is most troubling if foreigners are involved: The poverty of locals is being exploited to carry out dirty deeds, and that's a shame. I refer again to point no. 3 above, where farang talk of the ease of getting someone killed in Thailand. This attitude needs to stop and people even talking about it should be punished. In our home countries, merely talking about doing these kinds of things could be crimes.

It's not okay to kill someone, have someone killed, or blithely talk about how easy it can be done in Thailand. Treating this kind of talk so casually contributes to the ruin of this country's image, so the next time you hear it please consider the kind of company you're keeping.

There's nothing light about a killing -- or talking about arranging one. In the end, crimes on foreigners here will be greatly reduced by foreigners behaving themselves and conducting themselves properly.

Do you really expect that the atitiudes of a few foreigners will change Thai society? Are you really that naive? Let me relate to you a true incident.

When I first came to Thailand I met a lovely lady, working in a laundry to support her children. I convinced her to return home, look after her children while i supported them, with a view to later marriage. As soon as she returned home, her former de facto wanted her to live with him so that he could get the money I was sending her. As he was a local "heavy" her family was unable to assist.

I sought advice from a Thai living in Aus (my thai language teacher) - his first reaction was "it won't cost much to have him killed.' When I rejected this, his second response was "Go to the local police, give them B5,000, and they will sort it." What does "sort it" entail? Depending on the police prior interaction and attitude anything from a warn off, 20 years in prison for whatever crime fits, or a shot dead resisting arrest.

The kind of company that I was keeping was a university educated Thai national living abroad, who was giving me Thai lessons in exchange for help with colloquial English. So either this man was full of <deleted> talking about his own country, or it's some newbie TV poster. After many years here, guess who I'm backing?

Dear Mr. OzMick,

I appreciate your comments and I readily admit curing this problem is much, much easier said than done. I realize it runs deep and cuts many ways. It's just that in five years of living here I've become disgusted by these sorts of things. Yes, I am naive -- in the sense that I am hopeful good farang will take a stand. You seem like a nice, well-intentioned chap who wants to do right by others -- I respect and applaud that.

As a farang who respects Thailand and its people -- I have never had the first problem with a local -- I want to do what I can to help rid this country of foreigners here who are up to no good. Will it solve the problem? Not entirely, but it will go a long way in setting a tone that is long overdue among expats. We are guests here, and we should grin and bear those things we don't like, and at the same time we should never capitulate to lawlessness. Back home, many of our countrymen snicker when we say we live in Thailand -- they assume we're up to no good. Expats living in Japan, for example, doubtfully get that sort of response. There are those of us here who are honest and not out to start any problems. Why should we suffer for bad foreigners who involve themselves in bad things?

How could anyone treat talk of killing another human being as par for the course or somehow okay? That's all I'm trying to get at.

Thanks,

JC

3. I have heard many times -- from expats, not Thais -- something like this: "Do you know how easy it is to get someone killed here?" Think about it: What kind of expat would go around saying that kind of thing in the first place? Probably one who contemplates such things: contract killings.

The only reason why expats speak like this is because they have learned it from the locals. If the number of locals who run rough-shod over the laws of the land were to decrease dramatically, along with an overall decrease in crime and an increase in enforcement and punishment, you can bet that less and less expats would speak like that. Lay the blame at the root of things... There are too many locals creating too many problems which they seem to get away with and to an outsider, it looks like the place is something of a free-for-all where anything, including contract killing, goes. It becomes a case of monkey see, monkey do.

TheWalkingMan

Walking Man,

You make a fair point -- or as the old saying goes, "It takes two hands to clap." I cannot disagree entirely with what you say. Still, it is incumbent upon foreign guests to not be part of this kind of thing -- which always begins with words.

The old saying about sticks and stones just isn't true and I'm put off every time I hear an expat make casual reference to the ease with which someone can be killed here. In one instance, a former co-worker of mine threatened to have another co-worker killed because of a dispute in the office. I couldn't believe it -- even among supposedly educated people, this kind of talk is heard. In that moment, I lost all respect for the guy -- just that he was willing to even consider, let alone articulate, such a thing. Obviously, I could only wonder if he would (or had) said the same for me. Only a thug can think or talk like that.

In five years here, I have heard many things, and of all things I hear perhaps the most offensive is how farang talk about how easy it is to get someone killed in Thailand. It's about as uncivilized a topic of conversation imaginable. Whatever locals do or "offer" in this regard is among the locals. Good farang can choose not to be part of it, which begins with denouncing it.

Talking about having someone killed and how easy it is is just repulsive and has no place in any civilized discourse, especially where there is a problem. The easy way to put locals out of this racket, if they're really the problem, is to not be part of it -- including even talking about it.

In your own country, if someone said they were going to pay someone to have another person killed, it would be treated as a criminal threat, if not solicitation. It should be the same here.

We foreigners in Thailand need to raise the bar -- on ourselves.

Geratrickid raises a most important point -- this is a developing story and all of the facts are not in yet. That said, please consider:

1. The loss of life is always a terrible thing, regardless if it's natural, accidental or criminal.

2. The sensed increase of the possibility of violent crime in Thailand, whether founded or not, is real. In five years of living here, I've heard a lot of talk about this among expats, which leads to the next point.

3. I have heard many times -- from expats, not Thais -- something like this: "Do you know how easy it is to get someone killed here?" Think about it: What kind of expat would go around saying that kind of thing in the first place? Probably one who contemplates such things: contract killings.

4. Expats who talk this kind of thing, whether seriously or out their <deleted>, should be punished and made examples of. It's no way to behave as a guest in a foreign country and it contributes to the tarnishing of this country's image.

5. It's easy to blame the police (BiB, as they're derisively called), but their only role is after the fact. What about before the fact, like behaving responsibly and not being part of this kind of thing in the first place. Preventing crime starts with not committing crime or associating with criminal elements.

Of the three elements of a homicide -- motive, means and opportunity -- it is probably the second (means) that is most troubling if foreigners are involved: The poverty of locals is being exploited to carry out dirty deeds, and that's a shame. I refer again to point no. 3 above, where farang talk of the ease of getting someone killed in Thailand. This attitude needs to stop and people even talking about it should be punished. In our home countries, merely talking about doing these kinds of things could be crimes.

It's not okay to kill someone, have someone killed, or blithely talk about how easy it can be done in Thailand. Treating this kind of talk so casually contributes to the ruin of this country's image, so the next time you hear it please consider the kind of company you're keeping.

There's nothing light about a killing -- or talking about arranging one. In the end, crimes on foreigners here will be greatly reduced by foreigners behaving themselves and conducting themselves properly.

Dave,

It's easy. Follow these steps:

1. Go to the US Embassy (American Citizen Services section)

2. Get a standard FBI fingerprint card

3. Go to the Thai Royal Police HQ (on the BTS line near Paragon)

4. Have them print you and certify the prints with a Thai Royal Police stamp

5. Mail the card to the FBI (instructions will be provided with the card when you get it) -- you will also need to pay $17 in the form of a money order (they do not accept cash)

6. In about 4 weeks you will have the card returned with one of two stamps on the back indicating either that you have no record or that you do have a record

Please note that if you have ever been fingerprinted in America for any criminal offense -- regardless of outcome -- that there will be prints on file with the FBI. In other words, if you were arrested but not charged and/or convicted, the prints are still on file.

I hope this helps. If I can provide any further assistance, please send me a message and I'll be happy to help you.

I'm happy to help anyone whose not a criminal, just as I'm determined to help get locked up anyone who is.

Yours truly,

JC

Is this actually enforced? If so, what about people who arrived in country before that?

- Police certificate verifying that applicant has no criminal record or equivalents or letter issued by authorised agencies in applicant’s country. (The requirement of the submission of such police certificate is optional. The applicant must submit it if consular officer requests he/she to do so. This requirement is effective as from May 2007)

This is sad. The poor chap obviously found himself in the wrong place (Pattaya) at the wrong time (which could be any time in Pattaya). It is quite possible, as some suggest, that his drink could have been spiked -- which is an assault. What needs to be considered is that crimes on foreigners are often committed by foreigners -- especially in a place like Pattaya, where the Russian mob has a strong foothold.

Sure, a bar girl may have "mickeyed" his drink. If so, who was she really working for? Locals? Or farang gangsters?

There are many roots of crime in Thailand, some indigenous, which farang will never fully understand, and some imported, which farang should denounce.