Sangsom

Just a small story about how local people can talk about these things. In my soi live several families with children aging from 12-16 I guess mostly. Many come to my house to play pool and other games with my straight house boy (27) and his girl friend. One of the guys is extremely feminine is his behaviour, especially in the way he walks and moves. One day I said to my boy: “I would not be surprised as one day he might turn out to be gay.” The reply was: “No, no he is not gay he is lady boy. He likes to be a girl, you can see that!” He was really surprised that I did not understand that right away. The other children and their parents behave totally normal towards him and fully accept him as he is. Not one time did I see someone laughing a bit or ridiculing him.

Talking then about gay and lady boy I must say it became difficult to understand as they seem to differ from westerns to what gay is. "Gay boy" can also be used in a negative way I found out. "That guy is not boy, he is gay boy, money boy!" Referring with “boy” to the straight/bi bar boys. Those are alright in his opinion. A gay boy he thinks of as a fortune hunter. Asking him if I (who never kissed a girl in his life) was gay in his opinion he replied: “No you are not a gay man!” That was new to me!

All these things however don't surprise him at all. It is so normal that mostly they don’t bother even to talk about it. It is not a hot topic if someone is gay or straight or bi.

Only one time he was surprised. He told me about a family he knew that had two children, a girl and a boy and the boy was lady boy and the girl was . . . well he did not know how to explain but it turned out that she was what we call a lesbian. That he found utterly surprising, two in one family, not the fact that they were as they were!

I am not saying that this attitude is "standard" here in Thailand but I must say that I have heard people talking about this subject in a similar way more often.

What I meant to say is use your eyes and ears when you make a judgment about age. Facial hair can be a good indication, so is the way they talk or behave. One does not need to be "an expert in adolescent development" to come to a proper conclusion I think.

To refer to the Night Bazaar Bars just as being pickup bars or pickup areas is a bit far fetched. Sure one can pickup a guy there, but where not? Any walking street, shopping mall etc. offers such possibilities alike! Many people I know generally go there for a chat with other expats or with the locals, and yes and sometimes they decide to extend the evening in the company of some guy somewhere else . . . Nothing special about that.

Truth is that most of the non-Thai guys there (and that is the majority in these bars specially the ones in the Bar Beer Center) don't have an ID, but that does not make them criminals or probably under age! In generally they are nicer to look at and more friendly and less demanding than many Thai guys or shall I say Thai fortune hunters

about "looks under 35" was tongue in cheek, but I'll stand by a revised quote, "looks under 25." Case in point: Bangkok, last month, kid had a real Thai ID card that he was 22, but he looked 13. And sometimes it's almost vice versa.

From what I hear about "real" ID's I know there seems to be a trade in them with prices ranging from . . . No, no I wont go any further, no need to talk about that stuff, but I just mean to say that one cannot be too sure of the information given on an ID card. Not all is real gold that glitters . . .

There are some very easy ways of estimating someone age. Besides the way they behave and talk, take a look at starting stache and beard grow . . . That is generally an indication that they are older than 18 over here in Asia.

I find more problems -as I fancy guys way over 25 years old - to make a difference between a guy I can "talk" to and yet another customer . . .

Personal opinion ...... no ID ... leave them right where you met them!

I find this a very unfriendly remark and you seem to lack any feeling for these guys. Have you ever realized how they got ending up without a proper Thai ID? Do you ever think of these guys being exploited in the building sector (among other sectors) by Thais with wages a fraction of what Thais earn and that for hard and often dangerous work?

No I do not agree with you and definitely do not think that the possession of a Thai ID creates a better or more suitable person, no seldom it is the contrary!

You always have to be careful whatever you do and regarding whoever you meet but making the ID a criteria is utter nonsense in my opinion. I know many guys without a Thai ID that are great and reliable human beings (as that is what they primarily are!) but were unfortunately born in say the mountain areas between Thailand and Burma or in that wretched Burma it self. When there is no hope for a better future and it is downright dangerous to live were you were born, than people do whatever they can to find a safe haven despite all the new problems that they encounter there (Thailand). These guys have my 100% full sympathy and whenever I can help them I will do so! I definately will not turn my back on them and leave them where I met them!

For your information I am talking about Chiang Mai not Bangkok! I only know the situation here well enough to judge.

A litte warning regarding the DuangTawan! Right now almost opposite they are working on a huge new building day and night. I was told 350 people work during the night. Friends of mine fled the DuangTawan recently due to the noise this construction site produces. They had it all prepaid but still decided inspite of the fact that no refund was given to move elsewhere and get a good nigth sleep finally! It looks to me that this construction work will continue for several more months from now.

Thanks for that update, Sangsom; I hadn't noticed the mis-labelling. The whole soi, at the two locations you mention, has lots of open bar areas. Do ask for ID before offing anybody who looks under age 35.

You make me laugh:) Asking for an ID? Most of the freelance guys in the center behind the Night Bazaar building are Shan and many of them dont have an ID. Ages . . . well to my surprise also some boys of an estimated 15-16 are wandering around there. Most are however around 20 years I guess very few are older. My oldest catch in 4 years was 28 years of age . . . Most older Asian guys that go there 30-35 are unfortunately looking themselves for a younger mate.

In the other center next to The Peak the boys are (I think) generally Thai and more gay in appearance and behaviour.

Bars in Chiang Mai

You have listed the following selection : Cream, Jackpot, Chez Nous & Friendship Bar. This is really a very small selection.

First they are listed as gogo bars which they are not! They are open air bars in two small bar centers in Thapae soi 1 behind the Night Bazaar building.

I miss in the bar center right behind the Night Bazaar building: the very busy and very friendly Cruise bar!

In the area of the Peak I miss the also very busy Cupid bar and many others.

Maybe an idea to update your list and/or correct it so people know what to expect where . . .

I stay most of the time in The City Star Hotel near Sule Pagoda right in the center. They have a website http://www.citystarhotel.com where you can make a reservation on line. Everything is always handled very correctly! Pickup from the airport is also a possibility (12 usd with very good airco car or otherwise take a taxi for about 4-6 usd with open window airco)

I always go to Yangon - 6300 baht return + 1500 for Burma visa 28 days - go Sunday return Thursday. Visa appliacation on Monday get it on Tuesday, Wednesday is then left for shopping . . . Hotel 20 usd per night in the centre. A great and very inexpensive 5 days out. It is a bit of a culture shock however Yangon . . . Just got my new non-immigrant 0 with multiple entries.

Cassandra (a cursed name) says:

To elaborate, Thais these days are well aware there is a large element of low rent and sometimes criminal foreigners visiting their country, or even semi resident through visa running.They do not associate these "farang krajork" with the more established farang community, ie those with jobs and work permits.You and others like you completely underestimate Thais' ability to discriminate in these matters.

Well I live in Thailand for almost 4 years on a non immigrant O visa with multiple entries. Jyst got my fourth. I do not need to work anymore and I spend here 2 million baht per year. I do make visa runs avery three months, I do not want nor need a work permit, does that make me a criminal, a semi resident?

How rude!

The minor fines make the try worth while! Not really a risk for the rich!

This is a total nonsens topic. As long as we do not know or are not entitled to know what exactly happened one cannot judge and one should not judge either!

No editing needed I would say! Its clear loud and true!

No Mr. Sierra1 I'm not french, I'm swiss and was born and live parttime on the border to France and Italy (named the friendship triangle). I have many french, italian and european friends who I respect, and are nice people.

But it seems that most of the anglo-saxons populating this forum have a great pleasure to denigrate France,the french people and others european countries; especially the US one.

I'll be flamed but I don't care.

Well I won't flame you !

The British & French have a long history of friendly rivalry. We call them the frogs, they call us roast-beefs, both references to the other's supposed cuisines.

They mounted the last successful invasion of the UK in 1066, we ruled them for about a century in the middle-ages, we denied Napoleon (with help from our allies) supreme-overlordship of Europe, they denied us entry to the EEC for 20 years, etcetera.

But we also pull together when need be - for example in the two world wars, or building Concorde, a technology 20 years ahead of its time & a famous commercial-disaster for both countries, or the Channel-Tunnel connecting Europe with the UK.

There is a sense of humour mixed-in with any apparent denigration. They make much of our London fogs, the last one some 50 years ago, we laugh at headlines like "Fog in the English-Channel - Continent cut-off" .

It's simplistic to see the relationship as merely denigration, IMHO.

This is what this forum makes so boring at times. People moving far away from the subject and not contributing to it at all except for some childish accusitions regarding nationalities! Start a new topic for this nonsense, at least people interested in a certain item can stick to the subject without being bothered by some that belong in the kindergarten and not here!

God save the Queen & Vive la France & Deutschland ueber Alles & Hup Holland hup!

What would be the legal basis for such an attack? Sure Burma is not a democracy and Bush does not like that, since only democracies bring prosperty and peace, is his view. Look around and try to find evidence for this presumption! Thailand is a democracy also not that I noticed. Lately Hamas won the democratic conducted elections in the Palestine State and see how they all react now, those in favour of democracy as that was not what they wanted to happen.

An attack on Burma would only punish once more (the blockade only effects the poor not the junta leaders!) the common and extremely poor people. That would be a shame! They don't deserve this!

And what is there to gain for the USA? For Thailand there will be only losses in the form of a never ending conflict at its borders, not to mention its position in the ASEAN organisation that would become extremely difficult if not impossible. For the USA the only possible reason could be to regain its moral prestige, of which they have not much left, but I never saw the USA go to war for such a "small" thing . . . I don't think emeralds, jadeit, pearls, silk and teak wood are worth the fight for the USA!

We went yesterday, the access road was very dirty and indeed needs a lot of construction before you can call it a road. Also some indications along the road from town on how to drive would be very helpful. Only when you are almost there and can't miss it anymore there are clear signs.

The place it self looks very grand but we did not come to admiore the architecture. We made a trip in a small bus for which we waited about half an hour. I saw the odd animal now and then but prefer a Zoo where I can stop when I like to stop and do everything in my own timed not to talk about the irritating voice of the lady in the bus explaining everything in Thai (Lanna Thai as I was told) and as she though also in English but only she thought that I guess ...

All was free entrance as well as the bus ride and also the parking.

My judgment is that when one has to pay for this 400 baht as non-Thai and 250 baht for Thais: don't do it! Go to a nice Zoo. The Chiang Mai Night Safari is a waste of time, money and energy!

It was fairly busy, but it was still free! I do not see an average Thai family (2 parents with 2 kids) spending 1.000 baht for just the fee to get in . . . For the tourist industry there will be yet another trap . . . that's for sure!

They have now said that they feared for his safely . . . and what about alll the tourists that enter every day? No problem for them?

For first class shopping -for those with plenty of money to spend - one should think of shopping cities, not just malls, like Milano, london, Paris, New York and Dusseldorf for example. A nice shopping mall in BKK just by itself does not attract one more single visitor to this country let alone the so desired big spenders!

Why do they always aim for the impossible (and unnecessary) here. Why dont they concentrate on what they get here as tourists and cater for them and let them enjoy a drink late at night for example . . .

Tonight there is another Sondhi show. I was thinking the wisest thing Thaksin could do is to show up there in person and directly respond to his queries and accusations. However one needs quite some courage to do that and I doubt if Thaksin could face up to this. However it would no doubt give him back a lot of credibility that he has lost now, particularly over the past few weeks.

Pictures of Crystal Night in old Germany comes to my mind. 

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I wonder what they will write, instead of JUDE (jew) on the walls of the houses shops and other businesses of people that have shown sympathy for Sondhi. This is really frightening!

Why so much 10 baht? Myanmar used to have a system in which they paid nothing. A good system when you want to make profits. Thaksin will surely like that one!

To deny these not-wanted sites their existence does not solve anything, it only makes a fool of the one that tries to do that.

Reality is that there are a huge amount of pornographic sites, free and those that have to be paid for and a huge amount of sites that are critical towards a lot of things and that may include any monarchy or any government.

In the western world a normal and accepted thing. Why not in Thailand are they so afraid here and for what?

I am not talking about downright insults (the offended can go to court) and illegal (pornographic etc.) content (a task for the law). Web sites are only subject to the laws of the country where they are hosted and/or where the servers are located. To interfere with that as Thailand is planning (like Burma) is interfering with other countries internal affairs! Legal action can only be taken against Thailand-based web sites that publish lese majeste as "seen and interpretated" in Thailand. They cannot do anything against the very same content published on not-Thailand based sites.

Is blocking then their only choice? Can they not accept that in this world there are more opinions about these things, not always the same as Thailand sees them.

Besides that it makes a country that acts like that look so silly and childish!

One way they want to increase the use of Internet and in another they want to limit it by lets say 50%, taken they would block al sites that are deemed inappropriate like they do in Thaksin's beloved Burma. It does not make sense!

Today I read that the request by a police officer to issue a warrant to arrest Sondhi in the case of lese majeste was declined by the provincial court. So in all probability tomorrows big show will go on . . . but what can happen then? About 100.000 people or more are expected to turn up!

Who is reigning this country? Thaksin or Mercurius? It all seemed to have to do with the stand of Mercurius that he again refuses to speak to the press. Well no matter who reigns here Mercurius is after all the God of Commerce . . . so what is the difference?

Quite a nice excuse to avoid press confrontations!

Truly schocking indeed.

How on earth can one promote a Night Safari to view rare wild animals in their natural surrounding and at the same time offering them as dinner in a restaurant in the same place.

The person who thought this out must have lost his brains! This will be widely critized all over the world and work against this Night Safari tremendously!

And beside the wild animals . . . dogs on the menu downright disgusting!