lukejames

Softgeorge, apologies for being so sarcastic. :jap:

Let me explain properly.

The point is it is possible to have gay friends and be homophobic.

If I have gay friends but think them kissing in public, holding hands or talking about sex are a no no then I am still homophobic.

If I am cool around straight acting masculine gay men who like watching football and keep their sexuality private but become an aggressive twerp who needs to assert my heterosexual credentials when I'm around overtly gay men flaunting their sexuality or men who shave their legs and use the tricks of femininity to become pleasing to the eye then despite my gay friends I am still suffering from homophobia.

I know plenty of 'straight' guys who have gay friends but the point is their gay friends are for all intents and purposes unchallenging to their sexuality being typically masculine. These same guys become uniquely juvenile or cold and hostile around camp guys or katoeys.

In other words the more feminine the man the less acceptable he becomes, katoeys being at the lowest end of respectability.

And this applies to most 'straight' men, we are raised to protect our manhood and sexual identities from and accusations of being gay or less than manly and katoeys are a direct challenge to straight male sexuality. Most straight guys are homophobic with a small, h.

They are good people who have gay friends and acquaintances and would never dream of gay bashing or anything like that but they are in their heart of hearts deeply uncomfortable about the "activities" of the "gay community" and feel the need to distance themselves from "them" whenever there is a possibility that they could be either mistaken for being one of "them" or actually find themselves attracted to one of "them" then the hackles go up and the smiles fade.

:jap:

"You' people "such activities' the language that you are using is self evident.

Of course you are not homophobic, after all as you have kindly told us, your best mate is gay. But as you have also bravely informed us, you yourself do not indulge in the 'activities' of they gay community, you have nothing against 'them' and you are absolutely 100% solid gold straight and don't find katoeys attractive in the slightest.

I believe you because you have been so fervent in your honesty.

Only someone who was not homophobic and didn't find katoeys attractive in the slightest would feel the need to declare that in a thread about fighting prejudice when no one actually asked you about your sexuality.

I believe you and I never called you homophobic! I admire your willingness to share details about your sexuality even when no one asked. Pretty brave of you indeed. Keep fighting the good fight. :jap: .

By the way, did I mention I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black

I have lots of friends that are black I'm not racist although I don't indulge in the activities of the black community. I'm definitely not racist my best man was Jamaican and my cleaning lady is Pakistani. I have nothing against 'them' I just have to tell you as many times as I can I am not one of 'them', I am definitely not one of 'them'. No African or Asian blood in me honest.

Oh and did I mention I don't indulge in the activities of the black community, I'm not racist and I have NO African ancestry. Are we all clear on that. Ok definitely not one of 'them'

Closet gays do feel the need to declare they are straight at every possible opportunity though

I'm quite happy to be served a drink or a meal in a restaurant but when it comes to a serious purchase, such as an air ticket for example, I really don't want to deal with a ladyboy. if the owners of a business such as this can't take things seriously then neither can I.

If I would say what I think about you and your post, then not only my post would be deleted, but I think I would be banned from TV for weeks....

I concur absolutely

My point is that it is easy to "say the politically correct thing" on an internet forum; they can "talk the talk", but I wager that very few of them can "walk the walk".

So you are questioning the tolerant contributors sincerity? Why would you do that?

You seem to be saying that the people who are preaching tolerance are hypocrites whilst giving the bigots a pass.

Very strange indeed, unless you agree with the bigots that is?

I don't think that there are any more gays in Thailand than in other countries, but the stigma in being a feminized gay man is not so great here, so more men who are inclined to the ladyboy characterization (straight men as well) are probably more likely to live that way.

In the US, many, many gay men and transvestites (I realize gays, transvestites, and transexuals are not one in the same) are closeted. The fear ostracism from friends, in the workplace, in the military,on sports teams, etc. So their proclivities for dressing and acting like women are greatly curtailed. I first was introduced to this lifestyle when my wife and I had a gay couple as friends. One guy was a ladyboy at heart. But due to work pressures, he hid it until Saturday night when he would dress like a woman and perform at a transvestite revue. We went several times to see him perform, and we met both straight men and gay men who pretty much did the same thing--that is, hide their proclivities in their daily lives, but let loose on the weekend.

In Thailand, I think there is less pressure to hide this type of lifestyle, so more people are open about it. So for the casual observer, it might seem that there are more ladyboys here than in other places when in reality, they are just more obvious here.

Bang on

In the UK or Canada (countries of my citizenship), such a place would be out of business overnight.

In the UK (the country of my citizenship) I've spent the last 10 years watching a man transform into a woman (snip and all) working at our local Sainsburys supermarket. S/He's not lost her job and Sainsburys seems to be doing fine.

And that's actually the point - you know ONE in the UK. How many have you seen here?

Living on Phuket, but not visiting bars or Patong (except rarely and, only during the day), I only see katoeys working in shops, restaurants etc.

I am, even now, suprised every time - as I NEVER saw one in the UK.

They are clearly far more accepted here than they would be in the Western world, and this is one of those areas where Thai tolerance is far superior to Western intolerance. Those I've come across in shops etc. have been v friendly and good at their jobs.

However, even though they are able to live relatively normal lives, I don't doubt that they suffer some discrimination insofar as others may not take them as seriously as they would a 'normal' man.

Hello there, the UK is pretty tolerant too. My local pub which was full of football hooligans and plastic gangsters used to have a transsexual working behind the bar and she was treated with respect. Although the UK is not as tolerant as Thailand and gays can still be kicked to death in the street having transsexuals working in a business will not make that business suffer. Madame Jojo's is a very popular transvestite nightclub in London which has Northern Soul nights hosted by Legendary Scottish DJ Keb Darge. The fact it is a t-girl venue doesn't stop all the geezered up soulboys heading down there.

Katoeys who work the nightlife and who brazenly walk down Walking Street or ply their trade in Phuket do seem overly aggressive and obnoxious. And many do seem to get involved with criminal activities. However, do we notice them because they stand out as katoeys? When a female nightlife worker pickpockets a wallet or does something, perhaps it is not noticed as much? And would said females be as physically aggressive if they had the size and musculature as men?

I would be curious to see if katoeys are any more violent or criminally oriented than women or other men (straight or gay). Until I see figures that show that they are more apt to be criminals, then I tend to think that because they stand out more, we are more conscious of the transgressions of katoeys than by other members in society.

Good points. All the people saying all katoeys are violent, even all katoeys in the sex trade are just bigoted ignoramuses. Although I would agree there is more criminality from katoeys because as the article points out they are on the margins of society and find it difficult to get decent employment. Also it must be rather distressing growing up feeling that your gender is the wrong one so katoeys are probably more prone to mental illness and poverty than the average person of either gender.

If I comment on an article about legalizing gay marriage by saying "gays are not my cup of tea" I'm either being sexually insecure or homophobic or saying that gays as human beings are not my cup of tea. No one asked if anyone found katoeys attractive or not yet many of you still feel the need to declare your heterosexual credentials on an internet forum.

Strange indeed.

Wonder how many of you would be happy to have a son actually marry a katoey?

Nah......didn't think so........hypocrites!

Would you not love and support your son no matter what his sexuality is? Gay straight or somewhere in between. If you fear what happens between your sons bedsheets I think that is rather creepy

Anyone who posts here saying katoeys are all evil, not your cup of tea and you don't mind them serving drinks but wouldn't want them doing a serious job is without a doubt protesting way tooooooo much.

It's a proven fact that homophobia does not come from a fear or hate of the other but from a personal insecurity.

When politically correct, tolerant respectful middle class Western people who respect straight acting gay men turn in to ultra masculine aggressive fools around camp guys or attractive katoeys that for me is proof positive that it's your own sexuality that is in doubt. You people need a reality check lol