CBR250

But I refuse to become such a sheep that I cannot distinguish between human beings; to tar a whole people with the brush of hate because of some fanatics.

'Some fanatics' seem to have a large following in certain countries. I think we can guess which segment of the population supports IS.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/26/6067123/isis-poll

I have said in other posts that I abhor IS / ISIS. I deplore their behaviour. I detest their actions. Is that clear enough for you?

But that does not mean I will join the sheeple who are so easily wound up by a bit of kindergarten propaganda.

Whew! As an Aussie I am so glad that the British press were not allowed to mention Rolf Harris' origins. (Although my aboriginal mates reckon that a mere 200 years doesn't stop a Brit being a Brit, so which country does he really belong to???).

PS I presume Jimmy Saville was also Pakistani? Along with Ralph Bonner Pink, MP (sexually abused his daughter).

There is a list of dozens of MPs and political figures who have been convicted of a variety of sex abuse charges, including torture of young children. (http://conspiracytruths.co.uk/mpscovictedofsexoffense.html) Strangely, they all have Anglo-Saxon sounding names. Must have changed them on arrival in the UK from whatever Muslim / Arab / African / Asian den of iniquity from which they really came.

Why shouldn't the Muslim Pakistani community take collective responsibility/ blame and even collective punishment too when they clearly have a systemic problem within their society.

Catholics should, following your logic, also all take collective responsibility for the sexual abuse committed by their very own Church priests and other Church members.

The Protestant and Catholic Anglo-Saxons and Celts - and the Royal Family - could take responsibility for Sir Jimmy Savile's extensive abuses.

The secular humanists could also take collective responsibility and prostrate themselves in the streets in light of the widespread abuse of children by non-clergy currently being documented at a Royal Inquiry into Sex Abuse in Australia.

The increasing numbers of complaints of and convictions for sexual abuse by native English (& Welsh & Irish & Scottish, to be fair) indeed indicates a systemic problem. But to align the problem of child sexual abuse with Islamaphobia is entirely illogical.

Putting that aside, it's clear that dialogue is best for resolving differences, but just as clear that dialogue hasn't worked for the 60-year old festering problems between Israelis and Palestinians. What works? Old fashioned might is what commands the stage. Currently, Israel has the might to keep its sworn enemies from destroying it (and shipping all Israelis elsewhere?). Personally, I don't have a problem with Israel being a country, so I hope it doesn't get destroyed and have its people killed and/or shipped to other regions.

Personally, I have never intimated that I have a problem with the existence of Israel. Nor do I wish harm on its people. I have made that clear in endless posts. What I do have a problem with is that Israel is prepared to use that "military might" of which you seem so proud to slaughter innocent women and children in Gaza - and the West Bank & Jerusalem.

And why does Israel do this? Why does this military power you are so proud of start wars with people who have virtually no weapons, no armaments other than stones, home made rockets and some second hand K-47s? When you see a professional boxer punching the crap out of a kindergarten kid does this also hit the sweet spot for you? Your position implies you are ok with this, just so long as the professional boxer is Jewish and the kid is Palestinian.

(PS The easy answer to my question "why does Israel do this?" is "To keep stealing land from Palestinians". That is the bottom line - the rest of the complications are just window dressing).

'Israel to take over West Bank land'

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29008045

'The military-run local administration said it was a response to the kidnapping and killing of three Jewish teenagers in the area in June.'

You can't make this up.

The biggest land theft in decades. 400 hectares of Palestinian land. To expand yet another settlement of Zionist fanatics.

And just to show its "democratic" and "peace loving" credentials, "the Palestinian owners of the land have 45 days to contest the decision to Israel's Military Appeals Committee." Well, you can't ask fairer than that, can you? The impartial Military Appeals Committee.

I notice that at no point have any of the Israeli apologists on TV denied that Israel is stealing land. Sure, they prefer terms like "annex", "appropriate" etc, but they are as aware as all of us that Israel has not stopped stealing Palestinian land since 1948.

The US and the EU have both opposed Israel's land thefts as "illegal" and an "obstacle to peace" in the past. Let's see if they do any thing different this time. In the past, they have colluded with Israel's "Play For Time" strategy - making "tut tut" noises and dithering about while the Israelis roll about peeing themselves with laughter. That's why Israel comes out with lines like "it was a response to the kidnapping and killing of three Jewish teenagers in the area in June." Just to make it really clear that they don't give rat's backside what the rest of the world thinks.

"The depressing truth is that Israel's current behavior is not just bad for America, though it surely is. It is not even just bad for Israel itself, as many Israelis silently acknowledge. The depressing truth is that Israel today is bad for the Jews."

(Tony Judt, 23 October 2003) - http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.php

While those supporters of Israel who are blind, cerebrally deficient and malicious try to divert attention to the war in Gaza, or some other subterfuge, the reality of land theft from Palestinians continues. The stupid part is that this new example of Israel's sociopathic behaviour is guaranteed to alienate ever more people around the world. If there is growing wave of anti-semitism, as a few posters here postulate, it is very easy to see why this would occur. While there are many Jews who oppose Israel's actions, their voices are being drowned by the screams of triumph from the zionist fanatics.

I dunno, ISIS, now this, again. I weep for my homeland And yes of course it's this bs PC related. When reading comments on online British press reports, you know the ethnicity of the perpetrators of certain criminal acts, but aren't allowed to comment on it. 'This comment has been removed as it does not conform with our guidelines'. Yeah, okay.

Whew! As an Aussie I am so glad that the British press were not allowed to mention Rolf Harris' origins. (Although my aboriginal mates reckon that a mere 200 years doesn't stop a Brit being a Brit, so which country does he really belong to???).

PS I presume Jimmy Saville was also Pakistani? Along with Ralph Bonner Pink, MP (sexually abused his daughter).

There is a list of dozens of MPs and political figures who have been convicted of a variety of sex abuse charges, including torture of young children. (http://conspiracytruths.co.uk/mpscovictedofsexoffense.html) Strangely, they all have Anglo-Saxon sounding names. Must have changed them on arrival in the UK from whatever Muslim / Arab / African / Asian den of iniquity from which they really came.

Good article on the problem by a British Muslim

What links UK jihadis and Rotherham sex abusers? Mosques failing to give them moral leadership says LORD AHMED

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2738704/What-links-UK-jihadis-Rotherham-sex-abusers-Mosques-failing-moral-leadership-says-LORD-AHMED.html

Good article??? The Daily Mail???

Lord preserve us....... next we'll be referred to the National Front for their objective and cogent analyses.

The difference is they are not using a false, "twisted use of religion." Their citations are specific. Moreover, Islamic history and Jurisprudence is largely filled with precedents for most things happening today in the middle east. Through scriptural exegesis (most of it long closed), fatwa, and practice they have a highly developed, if repugnant structure for the conduct of life. People do not wildly make citations that is not based in sharia. Otherwise, irrespective who they were, they would be hunted down and stoned. But they always make citation. When they speak to each other they must cite authority. Listen!

The unpleasant nature of really understanding the underlying motivations and obligations is distasteful; it causes one to view people in a way that is... frightening. Their purpose is Allah, their method is war, their aim is Shariah, their bodies are irrelevant, and Jihad is their vehicle. Gosh, it nearly reads like one of those drone cults in a B movie, like Conan the Barbarian or the Temple of Doom but this is precisely the case. It is not related to Gaza or the Levant; this is a symptom.

Anyone can twist religion. It doesn't make the religion the culprit, it is the twister who is at fault. In the Tanach (or Bible for Christians) there are numerous verses which can be, and have been, used to justify horrific behaviour:

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9) (http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm#decapitate-them)

And yes, your last paragraph does read like a B-grade movie script. Muslims that I know would not recognise this statement as belonging to their religion. That's not to say that there are not other Muslims who may adhere to this warlike interpretation. The same as there are Jewish rabbis who call for the killing of innocent women and children. Rabbi Dov Lior claims that Jewish Law justifies the destruction of the whole Gaza strip. (http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rabbi-Lior-Jewish-law-permits-destruction-of-Gaza-to-bring-safety-to-Israel-368605)

So, yes, the behaviour which we both abhor is a symptom, but not a symptom of Islam. Rather, it is a symptom of growth of that dark side of humanity that is always amongst us.

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Yes, and these circumstances are made quite clear. The greater purpose is when a Muslim must renounce his/her faith to save his/her life. I have no doubt that this guidance would have been very helpful during the Spanish Inquisition when the Catholics were busily killing "heretics", Muslims and Jews.

This then is far removed from your implication that this is intended to justify warfare.

To be fair, CBR250, the original post did name the source, though no link was provided. He said "From the religion of 'peace'.com site," which is a well known Islamaphobic site; as reading their 'about us' page will show.

So, like you, I would like to be told where in Islamic writings that quote originated.

Post removed to enable reply.

Think you will find the history and background of 'Taqiyya' at the URL below is a fair summation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

EDIT: Is the practice of Taqiyya actually utilised by the large majority of UK Muslims, doubtful. By the conservative / extremist elements? Doesn't sound as though they adher to Taqiyya as they are constantly quoted & loud and clear on their objectives.

OK. So we are clear that "taqiyya" is simply a term that was developed by some unknown Imam in some early historical epoch. It is not found in the Quran. It is not central to Islam. The morality of lies, when and where they are acceptable, is pretty much a point of discussion in all religions. Lying about one's own religion was important to survival during the Spanish Inquisition, when then main targets for torture and killing were both Muslims and Jews. I am sure there would be a few Rabbinical utterances somewhere - based on this historical era - that allow Jews to lie about their beleifs without feeling they have breached the moral code of their religion.

And, to ice the mud-cake, Jacky54 implies that the term "taqiyya" is evidence of the warlike ways of Muslims. He (or she) says: "..you will be telling us next Islam is a religion pf (sic) peace, have you never heard of taqiya?" (Source: The World According to Jacky54, Post #240). So, if I had heard of the taqiyya I would then know for sure that all Muslims are warmongerers, eh Jacky? Irrefutable logic indeed.

And just to be painstakingly clear that post #240 is the result of too many centrefolds, the term "taqiyya" has absolutely nothing to do with the fantasy claim that Muslims are instructed to lie to "advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them" as Jacky54 so weirdly asserts.

And there is a third form to deal with non-believers, called ISIS, that's when they don't need to lie to anyone anymore....555555 (j/k)

And you think this topic of beheadings and murder of innocents is funny? You are one sick puppy.

The beheading and murder of innocents is sickening. So is your twist & flame attempt.

No twist. No flame. If you look back, it was you who wrote "555555" on a thread that concerns barbaric behaviours including beheadings and murder. I offered an observation that is a valid response to your attempt to trivialise this topic. I believe many people on TV will find your attempt at humour pathetic.

Actually, the western culture teaches the use of lying to "smooth over differences" and practices a variety of approved forms of lying as well. Ever heard of "the little white lie"? And what is the acceptable answer when your wife asks "Does my bum look too big in this"? Or, more seriously, what does the physician say when confronted by the question:"So, is it terminal doc? How long have I got?"

Oh dear you will be telling us next Islam is a religion pf peace, have you never heard of taqiya? Muslims are allowed to lie when they are in a minority to promote their cause and to smooth things over. Why have you brought Jews into this thread, it has nothing to do with them. From the religion of 'peace'.com site

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances,taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

Clearly your post infers that you are indeed a knowledgeable student of Islam - and as I am not, perhaps you would be so kind as to refer me to the section of the Quran where it says lying is approved under those circumstances that:

"typically .. advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them".

This seems very odd to me, however in deference to your scholarship, I will of course scrutinise the source you provide with care.

What does the Quran got to do with his post? None of these terms is mentioned in the Quran, yet these are well known Islamic terms.

If you want to educate yourself, Google instead of patronizing.

Not in the Quran? But I can find it on Google????

Well, that means your "source" is in the same category as an article somewhere between the pictures in Playboy.

For someone who confidently claimed Hamas had nothing to do with the kidnapping

whatsoever, even when killers were known to belong to the al-Khalil Qawasmehs, that's pretty rich.

Well, your sources are obviously superior to the Israeli police. Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld spoke to a journalist about the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens in the West Bank in June. Rosenfeld said that the men who killed 3 Israeli teens were definitely a lone cell (other sources identified them as the al-Khalil Qawasmeh clan) - and Rosenfeld said that they were hamas affiliated - but not operating under Hamas leadership. Other media sources also reported these same facts. Google them.

It is patently clear that the kidnappings and murders were a pretext for Netanyahu to attack and provoke Hamas. He sure wanted to move the Palestinian Unity Government off the front pages of the press. And make sure the EU and USA never even got to talk to them. He did a very good job - ok, it cost about 2,500 people their lives, and probably 3 times that many are now condemned to a lifetime coping with injuries and disabilities. Children are orphaned. Lives are ruined. But hey, you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, eh? So go ahead if you must, do a few contortions to try to tie Hamas to the murders, and help Bibi on his merry way.

==================== >>

Sadly humanity is controlled by testosterone so macho man will always rule by either the sword or the dollar - it matters little.

I quite liked 90% of jpinx's post too. BUT, I must take issue with this one sentence - why does testosterone always get such bad press? Sure, it underlies male pattern baldness. A crime! But other than that, its pretty useful stuff. For example, women's sexual drive is dependent on testosterone. Take it away and you'll be very sorry!

And don't blame the y chromosome for all of the trouble either - remember: Margaret Thatcher (Falklands War), Indira Ghandi (led war against Pakistan, 1971); Queen "Bloody" Mary (plenty of Irish remember her taste for killing from the 16th Century); Queen LIz the First (gave refuge to Mary Queen of Scots, then locked her up for 20 years and finally murdered her). Queen Isabella of Spain (kick started the Inquisition in 15th C); Countess Elizabeth Bathory (believed to be one of the worst serial killers of all time, with over 600 victims); And course, Golda Meir ('nuff said).

But back to jpinx excellent post - I agree that we may be waiting decades for this particular tableau of power grabbing, vengeance and tribal loyalties to be played out in the ME. We in the west should do what we can to minimise the damage there - so as to avoid the inevitable spillover effects on ourselves if not for humanitarian reasons.

But we sure should not be trying to fan the flames into a worldwide battle between religions!

The Muslim Council of Britain have regularly condemned extremists; including Anjem Choudary.

Oh dear you will be telling us next Islam is a religion pf peace, have you never heard of taqiya? Muslims are allowed to lie when they are in a minority to promote their cause and to smooth things over. Why have you brought Jews into this thread, it has nothing to do with them. From the religion of 'peace'.com site

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances,taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

And there is a third form to deal with non-believers, called ISIS, that's when they don't need to lie to anyone anymore....555555 (j/k)

And you think this topic of beheadings and murder of innocents is funny? You are one sick puppy.

The Muslim Council of Britain have regularly condemned extremists; including Anjem Choudary.

Oh dear you will be telling us next Islam is a religion pf peace, have you never heard of taqiya? Muslims are allowed to lie when they are in a minority to promote their cause and to smooth things over. Why have you brought Jews into this thread, it has nothing to do with them. From the religion of 'peace'.com site

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances,taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

Actually, the western culture teaches the use of lying to "smooth over differences" and practices a variety of approved forms of lying as well. Ever heard of "the little white lie"? And what is the acceptable answer when your wife asks "Does my bum look too big in this"? Or, more seriously, what does the physician say when confronted by the question:"So, is it terminal doc? How long have I got?"

Clearly your post infers that you are indeed a knowledgeable student of Islam - and as I am not, perhaps you would be so kind as to refer me to the section of the Quran where it says lying is approved under those circumstances that:

"typically .. advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them".

This seems very odd to me, however in deference to your scholarship, I will of course scrutinise the source you provide with care.

Yet the conclusion is actually all the matters. In light of my deep seated knowledge (yes, I am sure I possess) regarding Islam I just cant see how any of this is but re arranging furniture on the titanic. Yes, it must be done if there is even a sliver of hope for peace. But if Israel realizes what I realize I would not be surprised the well is being poisoned; perhaps.

Yes, I agree to a large extent. I am not over-confident about the possibilities of peace with the increasing influence of more radical and fundamentalist groups in Gaza, especially when we have an Israel ruled by fanatics as well.

But focusing for a moment on the Palestinian side - I don't think Islam itself is the problem (although I acknowledge that you seem to have a much greater knowledge of the religion than I). I think the twisting of Islam to suit the agendas of power-hungry fundamentalists and/or angry people is where the fault lies, not in the religion itself. The same as I don't believe that the Jewish religion is the problem, but that in Israel it has been hijacked by power-hungry fundamentalists with delusions of both grandeur and persecution. If we look at the sermons of priests and vicars during the Troubles in Ireland we find the same twisted use of religion, so it is not restricted to the Middle East, nor Islam and Judaism. The fundamental flaw is one of human nature, not religion.

The faded, jaded optimism I cling to is based on meetings I had with a number of Palestinian people (some Muslims, some agnostic, some atheist) over 10 years ago - including Mustafa Baghouti, who I have mentioned previously as a Palestine peace activist who is worthy of admiration. I know these Palestinian people haven't changed in any fundamental way. Sure there has been considerable change in other elements of Palestinian society, but I do maintain my hope that the qualities of integrity and compassion the Palestinians I know exhibited can still guide the future of their people. Baghouti and others like him continue to struggle to set the agenda in Palestine. Likewise, there are Israelis who demonstrate similar qualities to Baghouti, and who struggle to shift the agenda of Netanyahu. But as we have seen just now with what happened in Gaza, both groups have failed to have sufficient impact. And I maintain that the largest share of the responsibility for this rests with Israel, especially given the circumstances that led to this latest war in Gaza. The biggest kid on the block must always be the one to kick start peace - or who kick starts war. Israel could create the momentum that those concerned with peace in Palestine would benefit from. But under the present regime of people such as Lieberman and Netanyahu it chooses the alternative, leading to the deaths of thousands of innocent Palestinians, and dozens of well-meaning Israeli patriots whose lives have been sacrificed for the egos and agendas of fanatics.

Someone mentioned earlier how Israel would be gobsmacked without arms shipments from the US. Not so. Israel is one of the top arms producers in the world.

So, by your admission Israel is as much, or perhaps even more, of a military power than the USA.

Yet this major, advanced military power starts a war that kills almost 2,000 civilians - because, the Israelis claim, al-Qassam (Hamas military wing) fired some home made rockets that lack even primitive guidance systems.

Now, do you see something wrong with this picture?

UG,

re your Pappe quote...taken out of context.

The old Zionist trick ..find one school, one mosque, one ambulance..one out of context quote.. and use it to obfuscate the rest.

Typical behaviour by UG. I suspect that the original article he refers to as criticising Pappe is the one by Morris - a Jewish "historian" who couldn't find yesterday with a calendar.

Edited for the sake of brevity.

You look closely at the history of ANY country in the Middle East, and you'll see a long littany of switched alliances and allegiances which go back several thousand years. Can you guess what the common thread is? It's war and power plays. Not one country in the M.East has a history without wars and power plays. Look up the Assyrians or Babylonians, and you can find out about just a couple of the many eras in M.East history when boundaries and alliances changed year by year.

Note: it's a good thing the Israelis are cool headed militarily. If they had just a small portion of the Palestinians' hot-headedness, they would forcibly move them off Gaza and the West Bank.

Yes, but Israel has NOT been there for thousands of years. It has been there for an historical blink of an eye. Only since 1948, when, as Jewish historian Professor Ilan Pappe notes, the Jews "ethnically cleansed" 900,000 Palestinians.

Israel has no choice but to be cool headed militarily. Israel does treat US leaders with contempt (most recently John Kerry and President Obama), but they are careful not to push too far. If Israel displayed a bit too much "hot-headedness", I suspect that the arms flow from the USA would rapidly diminish. Would not be so easy to extend the bully role without substantial back-up from the US.

There's a sizable public in Israel which does not conform with right wing ideas.

Just that no one can find them when its election time.