HongKongPhooey

Didn't realize it was a mistake. You tend to drag things off topic so I replied to the question.

Don't agree with that, but ok.

So to repeat but corrected, So why is he/are they paying tea money? What are they doing illegally to have to pay this?

I didn't thing a bar always has to be doing something illegal to need to pay tea money. I thought a lot of tea money was the good old good old protection racket. You pay us, we make sure you don't have any problems, and not just turning a blind eye to laws being broken?

Even if you aren't breaking any laws, and aren't being asked for Tea money, it's probably a good ides to give the BIB a free feed or drinks every time they require it. That's what I've been told anyhow.

Wow that looks longer than I thought it was!! Do I win a prize if I get a record amount of TLDR posts?

You seem to struggle a bit with comprehension. I will break it down just for you.

"And your point in regards to this study that only results in pockets being lined and nothing happening is .............?"

.........that it's as routine, expected and unsurprising as water being wet!! Do you feel the need to comment on the wetness of water every day?

"No wait, it can't be corruption as you don't see it"

What do I need to do, tattoo it on my arse and send you a picture? I DO SEE IT!! I happily accept that it exists and have said so about 40 times in the last 2 days. You're highlighting your strange obsessive thought process by refusing to absorb those words when I write them. Not to mention that it has nothing to do with the point I made in this thread, which is people stating the more obvious than obvious on a daily basis, is a bit of a mental pass time.

"according to your 4K posts from various nics.."

I promise on my families life that if you added up every post I've ever made on every forum under every name, it would come to less than the 2946 posts you've made on this one forum, so another pointless, and baseless comment.

But wait, in the above post you admit to corruption whereas before you say corruption doesn't affect most people.

Yes, and what's your point? Those two comments are completely unrelated so why are you insinuating I'm contradicting myself? I know 100% that the Thai way and especially the Phuket way is a corrupt one, but I don't believe it affects the vast majority of people, tourists or expats alike. If you can't see that those statements are unrelated and in no way contradictory, then you have basic comprehension issues.

even though I've shown it does on a daily basis.

You haven't "shown" me anything. You gave one example of taxi drivers being rude and violent to people who park in their ranks. Firstly, that's only a tourist issue and doesn't affect expats at all, as they should know where and where they can't park. Secondly, by rude and violent you're probably referring to 20 incidents of rudeness and 1 of violence (minor) out of 1000 incidents of tourists parking in the wrong place. Add on top of that one incidence of major violence which resulted in a broken arm, and the whole parking in a taxi rank issue is hardly affecting people every day is it.

BTW, why do you spar with everyone that doesn't agree with you even though the majority of residents that live here have a differing opinion of what you spin?

How many people disagree with me is irrelevant. I'm not a sheep, I think for myself. Yes I will offer a different opinion to everybody I disagree with. On a thread where opinions are being shared I think that's fairly standard practice. I never trash peoples threads that are asking for advice or help and I never attack a poster because who he is only on what he says, big difference.

But as you wallow in in multiple threads, it doesn't affect the average tourist according to you, so therefore, no problems..

Spot on. I don't believe it affects the average tourist. All you've done there is just repeat what I've said before, so not sure what your point is. Yes I believe that the average tourist is not affected by corruption in a sense that it doesn't adversely affect their holiday.

Yes you could indirectly say that if things in Phuket were done the same as they were in the UK then there would probably be a bus service, meaning tourists could save money not using tuk tuks. So <deleted> what? If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. If a tourist comes to Phuket, uses tuk tuks happily, is happy with the price of beer (with the tea money factored in), and goes home having had a blinding holiday, then no, corruption hasn't affected them adversely in the slightest IMO.

It's a bit like saying the bloke wearing a pair of Nike trainers is affected by the fact that they were made by an underpaid, exploited person in a third world country. We would never treat workers like that in the West so it must affect the bloke wearing the trainers surely? I think you'll find he doesn't give a flying <deleted>!

P.S. I love how you're OK with people getting screwed over here.

I get no pleasure out of seeing people get screwed over what so ever.

Must be nice to be in the UK most of the time posting under various nics.

Your obsession with my location is getting a tad worrying! But yes you are right it is lovely being in the UK this time of year. A long weekend in Barcelona, took the kids camping in the New Forest, day trips to Brighton etc, Saturday nights out in Soho, trips to the theatre etc etc. Very nice indeed. When was the last time you went to the theatre? Your kids nativity play perhaps .

I love Phuket with a passion but I wouldn't swap my time in Europe for low season weather for anybody. What's exactly is your point? Not to mention that I first started spending time in Phuket when I was 24. By the time me and you are both brown bread, I bet I will have spent more time in Phuket than you.

P.S Before you ask "Snamos" No, I didn't spend an hour writing it, 20 minutes tops.

"A similar study in Phuket, focusing on developing a bus rapid transport system, was carried out in 2006, but deemed inappropriate at the time."

Says it all. Taxi mafia rules. Far too much money being made to even think about a rail link possibility.

A quick translation:

The official Government Department want all the kickbacks on this one, so the Phuket officials will have to find some other way of making money.

Au contraire Valentine,,these multiple feasibility studies keep the luxury car and new home builders businesses in operation.

For those people that never know what I'm talking about it's this. Every single day there are stories simply about the way things are in Phuket. And every single time people make the exact same kind of comments. I said recently about how people were like the girl in the film "50 first dates" well this is exactly 100% what I was talking about.

It's as if you all wake up on Phuket every day for the first time. It's Ground Hog day gone mad!

"Oh look there's another post about the Phuket officals and what they are up to. I know I'll make a really original and funny comment about how there's corruption in Phuket, and how the taxi mafia control everything. That will be funny and worth while"

Some of you have been here for 10/15 years yet you still make these exact same posts every single day. There's corruption in Phuket we get it allready.

Tomorrow there will be another story about what the politicians are up to and the exact same people will make the exact same banal posts. I think they just use cut and paste.

^ Good post. It's not that confusing though IMO. People want the laws of a corrupt society to stay the same and be applied fairly and then get confused when they don't. By very definition the rules of a corrupt society will be bent and changed and manipulated at will by those with the power. You simply play the game as best you can, or of course you do what is often the smartest choice and don't play at all. There is only one rule, there is no rules.

If you find yourself making comments like "You can't extort me for that officer because You're already extorting me for something else" then I think it's time to stop running a bar in Patong.

I love how HKP never address this issue of BTB when it is brought up.Now why would that be?

Yeh what a mystery. Might need Sherlock Holmes for that one.

Why is it that many posts degenerate into petty bickering & the protagonists are generally the same few people. Some really good posts often get locked because of this.

The corruption here is pervasive, in your face if you care to take off the blinkers but we can only comment as there is really no recourse to any authority unless perhaps the ombudsman. Even if he finds a case that has grounds who will dare take it to prosecution? So we learn to accept it exists, try to avoid it as much as we can & get on with enjoying all the good things which attracted us here.

Good post and pretty much all I ever say. People constantly try to convince me that corruption exists when I've never denied it once. All I say is I'm not a victim of it as people keep trying to tell me I am, and that it won't be changing any time soon.

As somebody else said, the way things are done in Thailand which, have then been exaggerated further still in Phuket, is a part of the countries cultural history. It is ingrained in the fabric of society and has been forever. For a few jumped up Farang to think they firstly have the right and secondly the ability to make things change is as deluded and arrogant as can be.

If things change it will be as and when the THAIS want them to, either because the powers that be decide it would benefit them to do so, or because Joe public wake up and want things to be different and make it happen through democratic means. It 100% won't be because some sweaty farangs moan all day on a forum.

If you became an expat in Jamaica would you try and stop the locals smoking weed because you didn't like it? Or would you move to Bogota and try and campaign against the cartels, or move to Japan and try and stop their cruel eating habits where they prepare, cook and eat animals why they are still alive?

It's the exact same difference. You don't move to somebody else's country and try and change hundreds of years of cultural history just because it doesn't sit right with you. If you think you have the right and ability to do so you are a deluded fool.

This is why 'NomadJoe' refuses to tell me what he has achieved in the fight against corruption, even though he constantly claims to have made a difference. The reason is because he's changed NOTHING and is doing nothing but leaving an embarrassing trail of posts through this forum for at least the last 5 years.

The way things are done in Phuket is the way things are done in Phuket, you accept it or you don't, who cares, that's your look out.

I think you will find most everyone agrees with you. His last post was so full of inaccuracies and exaggerations I wouldn't know where to start, so I won't.

We have almost the exact same amount of "likes" as each other (at the time of writing I have one more to be precise) and the other fella, forgotten his name already, has a fraction of the amount we do.

Now don't get me wrong, the 'like' button isn't scientific proof of good posting, but it does prove without doubt that not everyone hates all of my posts as you would love to believe.

Are you going to be like all the other members that say they never read my posts but still magically know what I've said and continue to reply.

When it comes to ignore buttons I find less talk more action is the way forward.

I'm done with this thread anyhow, unless you or 'NKM' manage to answer the simple questions asked.

^ Which is it. Should we move this year or wait for the governments amazing plan?

The biggest change I noticed on my last trip last year was the increse in places on the West beach of PP Don and this is where much of the night life has moved to, there were lots of bungalow type rooms there also.

You are spot on. "Charlie" beach used to be where all the high end bungalows were, now it looks very much like a mini Koh Phangan. Very very different. It makes me feel old to say it but I much preferred it before. There's a fair bit of trouble of a night on that beach as well which never used to be the case. Somebody was stabbed a few months back. Very Ko Phangan like.

@HKP

I have been following your posting on a few different treats and it occurs to me that you have a gift for turning everything into a personal vendetta against anybody who does not agree with you. You accuse posters of getting of topic while you do it all the time or do you mean that the posters go off your topic ?

To make your point you often shout (using Capital letters) witch I think is rude and against all internet rules.

Personally I'm getting tired of you, it's like talking to a sixteen year old, spoiled brad who is always right.

You are very close to my "ignore" button, not that you personally attack me but for the simple reason that most things you write are not worth reading.

Sorry mods if this post is against the rules but so is shouting.

I think you will find most everyone agrees with you. His last post was so full of inaccuracies and exaggerations I wouldn't know where to start, so I won't.

He's worked his way into a paradox.

His arguments are these:

"Sustainable tourism is not threatened." When it is explained how it very clearly is, then it's "Ok, well then it hasn't gotten any better so stop commenting about it." What is most impressive is the veracity in which he is somehow able to pursue these two contradictory positions. Ignore button time. (Click your name then "manage ignore prefs" Unfortunately you still see the reply if someone quotes him.

I Am not contradicting mysef in the slightest. I don't agree that tourism is being effected, ergo it is being sustained therefor not unsustainable. For the 10th time, where is the proof. Are tourist numbers down already. You have given me a list of things that you believe may affect tourism, but you have given me no proof that it is happening already, therefore you are doing no more than guessing about the future as you have been for years. My guess is different to yours that's all there is to it.

I'll take your silence as that yet again you are telling me you have made a difference but refuse point blank to say what it is. That's a sure sign of B/S where I come from.

I use capitals as a way of emphasis not shouting.

Some people like some of my posts, lots of people don't. That's how forums tend to be.

Ignore away, I'll try not to miss you too much.

Far... do you wish to watch the sunset together or why are you talking about the size of the ocean now?

What I said was rather straight forward. You moaned about the roped off area. I asked you how much of the ocean do people need to swim in? Are jet skis upsetting some practising channel swimmers or something?

Ah. That's moaning. Thanks for clarifying it!

You compared it to a prison, so yes I took that as a moan.

That is something I can accept as truth. Very different from 'NJ' knowing about things he never hears about.

Can we be a bit more specific. Many reports of what, assault, battery? How man actually needed to go to hospital in all the time you've been here? 1 maybe 2?

Not condoning it obviously, just trying to put it in to a true perspective.

HKP - you have spun me into your web for long enough today. You have your opinion, many of the rest of us have a differing opinion. I am assuming you get some sort of jolly from trying to wind us up. I am having a break.

Me too. It's like trying to have a conversation with a bar of soap in the shower.

My very first post on this thread was simply asking for clarification as to what the signs were that tourism was in trouble. Immediately several people launched in to posts trying to convince me that corruption exists and that I must be a fool for denying it. I must have been accused of denying it's existence about 15 times between you and 'NKM' when all I asked was for proof of the decline in tourism or an estimation when it was expected. I was then accused of twisting the argument to suit my needs when in truth the OP was mirroring my own opinions. How does that make me the slippery one exactly??

One of the other things I was referring to was not forum related. You said you told the police about the incident on Bangla and they did nothing about it. That is another example of what I was referring to when I said you admit that you change nothing.

You can always put me out of my misery by telling me what exactly it is you have achieved? Last time someone asked you that you said you wouldn't tell because they would probably pass the info on to the drivers. I'm assuming you've moved past that sillyness by now. So do yourself a favour and stop the vagueness, and give me some facts. That's all I ever ask of people making broad statements on forums, just to be specific and deal in facts.

I didn't turn this in to a tuk tuk discussion, I was doing my best to steer clear. I asked questions about worsening corruption and the predicted decline in tourism, but I got very few answers.

Show me one tourist destination in japan that does not have good english speaking staff, just one. You wont be able.

While the staff at even high class destination in thailand and phuket have lots of important staff members with very little english abilities.

That maybe so, I've never been to Japan. My point was that I think the same rule should stand for both countries, where as one poster seemed to be saying that the Japs don't need to speak English but the Thais do.

Doesn't answer my question though. When exactly is this going to start to affect tourism? I haven't seen any signs yet.

Far... do you wish to watch the sunset together or why are you talking about the size of the ocean now?

What I said was rather straight forward. You moaned about the roped off area. I asked you how much of the ocean do people need to swim in? Are jet skis upsetting some practising channel swimmers or something?

HKP - you have spun me into your web for long enough today. You have your opinion, many of the rest of us have a differing opinion. I am assuming you get some sort of jolly from trying to wind us up. I am having a break.

I get no pleasure from winding people up, not my intention what so ever. If my opinion frustrates people then that is their issue to deal with not mine.

I'm done with it anyhow. Unless people like 'NKM' answer straight forward questions and give me a list of all the ways corruption has got worse and how it affects him, then I can only assume he was making baseless, exaggerated statements.

Lets not forget what the OP's opinion was on this matter. Not that dissimilar from mine. People seem to have glossed over that fact.

I think I already answered that. It is the nature of crime and media. Are you actually suggesting that every incidence of violence or scam by a tuk tuk driver or every scam or injury caused by jet ski's or parasail boat is reported to the police and media? I personally witnessed 20+ tuktuk drivers beating the snot out of a couple of farangs on Bangla Rd that went on for several minutes until the cops showed up and carted the bloody pair off in the back of a police truck. No Thai's were detained or questioned that I would see. When I reported it to the media, the police refused it had happened.

No, but that also leaves the gate open for wild exaggeration and fear mongering. We can make an educated guess as to how prevalent something is based on the KNOWN facts.

Yet again it confirms my argument that you are having no effect on the situation what so ever. You have admitted as much several times but then get the hump when I say it.

To me, having a roped off area is just common sense and should always be the case. That's for the long tails and speed boats as much for the jets skis. Would be interesting to know an official amount (or as official as you get in these parts) I certainly don't remember any high profile incidents.

To me that's putting majority of visitors to roped prison so that few can have their fun.

Why not to dedicate one beach, for example Bang Tao, for the jet ski and other fun and ban it from other beaches. This would bring young and vibrant tourists to the north and also be a good way for Tuk tuk's to make their daily earning when the youngsters travel around the island. Fortunately there is no traffic problems either as the island has not changed for the past 10 years.

How far can people swim exactly? Look at the size of the ocean. It is ample size for every man on the planet to do what ever floats his boat so to speak. All it takes is common sense and respect for others.

And for each of the dozens of cases we know of, there are dozens more we don't hear about.

How do you know they happen if you never hear about them?

If a tree falls over and nobody is there to hear it....................

How about not published. I personally have heard many reports from my guests over the years, some requiring hospital attention, but never are reported in the media.

That is something I can accept as truth. Very different from 'NJ' knowing about things he never hears about.

Can we be a bit more specific. Many reports of what, assault, battery? How man actually needed to go to hospital in all the time you've been here? 1 maybe 2?

Not condoning it obviously, just trying to put it in to a true perspective.

Well, it is new, isn't it? In the recent past, every bar had pirated cards for their satelite boxes for the South African Super Sports channel. It was common knowledge, all over Thailand. It only stopped because Super Sport turn off the satelite transmission over this region. No bar was ever "shaked down" for it.

So, I disagree, this is a new money grab. How it affects me, well, certain sporting events may not be easily viewable in bars here, but ultimately, tea money will go up if you do not want to be raided for showing sport in your bar, so, the price of beer/food goes up, or, the owner shows it anyway and puts the price of beer/food up to cover the fine. Does it really bother me, no. In theory, does it have an affect on me, yes.

My point is that it's only new because it wasn't possible to do this particular thing before. It couldn't have happened before because as you say bars were getting their channels from a different source.

So yes, if you want to be pedantic it's new, but in reality it's just a different variation of the same old thing. Hardly hot of the press, new and never seen before is it!

When the price of beer and food go up directly as a result of that shake down, you let me know.

And for each of the dozens of cases we know of, there are dozens more we don't hear about.

How do you know they happen if you never hear about them?

If a tree falls over and nobody is there to hear it....................

How many incidents have there ever been in Phuket of swimmers being injured by jet skis?

I'll research that and let you know. Wonder why many beaches now have buoyed off swimming areas, Maybe because of jet ski or speed boat accidents.

I know of one dive instructor that was hit by one off Kata. I have had quite a few close calls with them while teaching off Kata and Karon Beaches.

The point was, a member said that people don't go in the water because of them which is a baseless statement IMO.

I don't believe that corruption has changed the tuk tuk experience, for the average tourist, one bit in the last 10 years.

It's gotten a lot more expensive, and not in line with inflation or gas prices. It's my opinion that much of the tuk tuk problems have been caused by the issuing of far too many licences (that's the official corruption factor again). I mean, how many tuk tuks does a place like Patong need. I suggest that Patong could get by just fine with 10% of the current fleet of tuk tuks and the drivers would make a good living. But no, they all have to squabble over the slim pickings. And the pax bears that cost.

That's a fair comment. Obviously they have got more expensive. I was going to say, when was the last time you bought a plate of fried rice with a fried egg on top for 30 baht as it was 10 years ago, but that doesn't address the increase above and beyond inflation.

The two young Scandi guys put in hospital. The German guy beaten to within an inch of his life. He spent something like 2 weeks in ICU. There are many, but yes, not as many as those who have made it home in one peice, however, their monopoly on transport here is a national disgrace.

All you have done there is list two of the other well known incidents, strengthening my point. I'm not talking about 'LivinLOS' and his mates arguing over the price at 3am because the driver didn't want to go up a big <deleted> off hill. I'm talking about major incidents that people talk about as if they happen daily when they simply don't.

How many incidents have there ever been in Phuket of swimmers being injured by jet skis?

I'll research that and let you know. Wonder why many beaches now have buoyed off swimming areas, Maybe because of jet ski or speed boat accidents.

To me, having a roped off area is just common sense and should always be the case. That's for the long tails and speed boats as much for the jets skis. Would be interesting to know an official amount (or as official as you get in these parts) I certainly don't remember any high profile incidents.

I agree LIK, and I remember the incident involving the French guy.

I'll be very specific and very recent. Last night, bars showed the football, as they have done for the last 10 years you have been here HKP. They were raided, arrested and fined 25,000 baht. Did that happen 10 years ago???? Why were certain bars targeted and not others?

You can go on about how they shouldn't have done it in the first place as it's illegal, but so is prostitution, and isn't that what you like about this place, the freedom, the lack of bureaurcacy.

So, it's a new scam, or new selective enforcement of the law etc etc but I don't remember it happening years ago when I first started coming here. So, we have all the old scams, plus now this new one. Just one example of things getting worse, not better.

I would imagine the same kind of thing happened ten years ago yes. Not the exact same thing but that's hardly the point. It most certainly isn't a new scam is it. It's a good old fashioned shake down of people who are breaking the law, that's how it goes.

Can't you be more specific than that. That's one example of a slightly different variation of a good old fashioned shake down, and I notice you didn't tell me how it affected you or any tourists.

Give me a brief list of the kind of things you are talking about please. We can all be vague and exagerative.

Lets try to stop making very broad statements and look at the facts. What exactly has changed about corruption in the last 10 years. How has it got worse specifically and how has it affected you personally?

Good point HKP. I would say it has 'got worse' in subtle ways, for example the jet ski & tuk tuk operators have become much bolder with their threatening behavior as they are confident that the 'authorities' will do nothing because of the corruption of kick-backs. Really does not affect me personally, other than the fact that I can't park down on the beach road because of all the vehicle hire street vendors taking over much of the public parking or the tuk tuks hijacking much of the rest of the street parking. No matter, I use the Jungceylon car park. So I can adapt to the situation, but what about the new tourist arriving, renting a vehicle, and come face to face with this problem. Take the Frenchman last year, tries to park his hire car in the public car park, and gets his arm broken by an irate tuk tuk driver with a crow bar. No charges were ever made.

You are happy to accept that it hasn't really affected you, so I think we should always talk about tourists and expats separately. I believe 'NKM' blurs that line confusingly at times.

As for the tourists, it is obviously atrocious what happened to the French bloke and completely wrong, although not at all surprising, that he didn't get convicted.

The main point though for me is this. The example you gave, I could have told you before you even posted it that it was the one you were going to use. Why? Becasue I'm telepathic? No, because it's one of only about 5 or 6 big incidents in the last 12 years. Yes there would have been several other more minor ones but the anti tuk tuk hatred is fuelled by only a few bad incidents.

I don't believe that corruption has changed the tuk tuk experience, for the average tourist, one bit in the last 10 years.

I would say there is a big difference here. If you want to cater to tourists, like Phuket does, speak their language or if not possible another language they speak.

I don't follow what you're saying? If Japanese people don't need to learn English to cater to their tourists then why should the Thais be expected to? Surely they both do or neither.

What I'm saying is the Japanese don't have to speak English for their tourists because they hardly have any tourists, at least not compared to Phuket, which is a tourist island. So I would people working in the tourist industry here expect to speak English much better than they do. Just as I would expect somebody who works in the Hilton in Tokyo catering to foreign businessmen to speak English.

Sorry for the wrong time in the quotes BTW, made a small mistake there.

I see what you mean, but I personally think Japan gets enough tourists for it be judged by the same criteria as Thailand. Especially when you consider the differences in wealth and education.