ClausGS

Claus, first you don't want any moisture content, totally dry if that is possible.

On the smoking side, it will heat the shed, but it is primary purpose is to cure the sheet for storage.

My problem is, my sheds are designed to be hot, clear roofed areas to allow direct sun light in, lots of brick work and steel to hold the heat. This time of year it is as dry as the Australian out back, can hang the sheets in the smoke sheds, they are hot without a need to burn wood. Rubber comes out as if it had been in a purpose build hot air shed.

Now my sheds are big, was going to be a rubber baron, sheds were built to smoke large volume. I only have a small volume, can't burn wood none stop. So we hang the sheet in the shed and about a week before we sell [once a month normally ] lite the fires for 3 days and smoke the sheet.

Problem is that in the wet season, even though the sheds are hot, the humidity is high and mold grows fast [bad rubber ] So I need a way to dry the sheet first, stopping mold growth until we smoke them. Ergo a small hot air shed using little fuel that is used daily.

Have to say never thought of the fan to circulate the air, good idea, will be putting it into the design.

Thanks for posting that, gives me food for thought. Jim

HI

Dry kiln.

100% dry air will never happen in a kiln, but you can come very near. First you need to make sure that your kiln is as air tight as possible, seal all gaps, have rubber profiles around the door frame, check the wall's and ceiling.

Then you will have to heat the air not with smoke or direct fire air,as smoke contains water (the water comes from the wood you burn). You will need to have some kind of heat exchange system. For hot water systems i have see people use heater core's with fan's like you have in cars to extract the hot air from the water into the air. For smoke systems (air systems) you need to let the smoke go trough long pip's that are placed inside the kiln and have fans blowing on them to extract the air. In the wet season hot air might not be enough as the air is too wet from the beginning. In that case I would try with 1 or more air conditioners that have the function of de-humidifier. There are industrial de-humidifier's available with different capacity. A de-humidifier will for sure solve your problem, but it is extremely important that your kiln is air tight. Have never tested this but my feeling tells me that with a de-humidifier you might not even need to heat the air at all only have the heating source from the glass roof.

Smoke

Jim do you really think you need to smoke your rubber sheets, is it not good enough to have the sheets dried to below 3% water?

You say that the smoke cure the sheets for storage, can the rubber sheets be cured without the smoke or?

Claus

One more thing on the kiln, you said that you have used a lot of bricks and concrete, this 2 materials absorbs water from both inside and out side the kiln. That is unwanted as the water in the materials will go into the dry air in your kiln. Professional wood drying kilns are made of aluminum and EPS as isolation, non of this materials absorbs water. What you can do is to cover your inside brick and concrete walls with a thick layer of latex paint or roof sealer paint. That will stop the water coming in trough the walls. Wood that are stored for longer time after the final drying are stored in rooms like that, nearly 100% air tight. Or covered with plastic sheets.

Claus

Hi All

Thanks for all the useful info about tree size and first taping timing, I got a much better understanding of this part of rubber growing now. And good for me it looks like i don't need to wait 3 years more to start my first tapping. maybe 1 to 2 years. Thanks again guys.

Claus

Claus, first you don't want any moisture content, totally dry if that is possible.

On the smoking side, it will heat the shed, but it is primary purpose is to cure the sheet for storage.

My problem is, my sheds are designed to be hot, clear roofed areas to allow direct sun light in, lots of brick work and steel to hold the heat. This time of year it is as dry as the Australian out back, can hang the sheets in the smoke sheds, they are hot without a need to burn wood. Rubber comes out as if it had been in a purpose build hot air shed.

Now my sheds are big, was going to be a rubber baron, sheds were built to smoke large volume. I only have a small volume, can't burn wood none stop. So we hang the sheet in the shed and about a week before we sell [once a month normally ] lite the fires for 3 days and smoke the sheet.

Problem is that in the wet season, even though the sheds are hot, the humidity is high and mold grows fast [bad rubber ] So I need a way to dry the sheet first, stopping mold growth until we smoke them. Ergo a small hot air shed using little fuel that is used daily.

Have to say never thought of the fan to circulate the air, good idea, will be putting it into the design.

Thanks for posting that, gives me food for thought. Jim

HI

Dry kiln.

100% dry air will never happen in a kiln, but you can come very near. First you need to make sure that your kiln is as air tight as possible, seal all gaps, have rubber profiles around the door frame, check the wall's and ceiling.

Then you will have to heat the air not with smoke or direct fire air,as smoke contains water (the water comes from the wood you burn). You will need to have some kind of heat exchange system. For hot water systems i have see people use heater core's with fan's like you have in cars to extract the hot air from the water into the air. For smoke systems (air systems) you need to let the smoke go trough long pip's that are placed inside the kiln and have fans blowing on them to extract the air. In the wet season hot air might not be enough as the air is too wet from the beginning. In that case I would try with 1 or more air conditioners that have the function of de-humidifier. There are industrial de-humidifier's available with different capacity. A de-humidifier will for sure solve your problem, but it is extremely important that your kiln is air tight. Have never tested this but my feeling tells me that with a de-humidifier you might not even need to heat the air at all only have the heating source from the glass roof.

Smoke

Jim do you really think you need to smoke your rubber sheets, is it not good enough to have the sheets dried to below 3% water?

You say that the smoke cure the sheets for storage, can the rubber sheets be cured without the smoke or?

Claus

Clause,

You'll be surprised.your trees will be probably ready to tap next year,just be sure you put good fertilizer on them.50 cm is a good size.As Jim said he was there when his trees cut first opened.Big danger if care is not taken at this time.Especially if trees are too small because the bark is very thin at this age and size so easy to cut into the wood.Trees can end up <deleted>#&d for life and really stunt there growth from that time on.Try to be sure at time of very 1st tap you have experienced tappers as the worker can't see where the bark ends and the wood begins,Good luck in your area with this as people talk a lot of shit.However everybody else survives so I guess you will tooooooooo

Good luck

HI

So what you are saying is that most likely some of my tree's will reach 50cm next year some time. That sounds amazing, I expected my trees to reach 50cm at the age of 8 years. I will just have to wait and see.

Claus

5 years is a bit young to be worrying Claus, ours were about 6 and a few months before we tapped. 251 clones

HI

So how big was the tree's when you started to tap, I remember that the recommendation is MIN 50cm 1 M from the ground.??

Claus

HI All

Just back from my visit to our yang plantation around loi et (Isan).

It is 5 year old trees. And they have about 35cm circumference.

Planting distance is 3 x 6 M

I feel that it will take a long time before they will be 50cm and ready to tap. Is this normal or ??? pleas give me your comments.

Claus

Sunday, I'm bored, no coconut watering, had to stay home and mind the kids.

Just sitting down for the first cold one of the day and thought I may as well write something on my quest for hot air rubber sheet drying.

It got me thinking, after I got the rolling machines working right and rubber was hung in the smoker shed to dry, everyone thought they had been hot air dried, but no heat had been applied.

First thing I learned was I had no idea of what it was all about, listening to what the locals said was as reliable as listening to my dog.

Thailand for much of the year has very high humidity, so high that at times the air can not absorb any more water. At night the air actually returns water to the sheet rubber and mold grows, bad sheet. Now even with the smoke house going the air is still moist and we would need to burn 1/2 of Thailands forests to keep the fires going 24/7.

Hot air drying has nothing to do with heat in the end, it's all about de humidifying the air. It makes no difference how you heat the shed as long as you get dry air. I also had the temperatures way too high, 38 degrees is the ideal.

The design really can be simple, as long as moisture can escape and the damp air can't get in. So the shed can be made of any thing with a few vents in the roof to allow the moist air out. I will go for concrete bricks, sheet iron and clear plastic roof. A few of those roof vents with cones over them, to keep the rain out.

Heating can be done by many means from gas hot air blower, if green, hot water pipes run through the shed, heated by solar. I on cost will go for the cheaper system, 5 /100 liter steel drums wielded together to for a tube and attached to a concrete ring outside of the shed, for the fire pit. beauty of this system, unlike smoking is you can burn anything, garbage, grass, plastic, if it burns and gives heat you can use it.

If you already smoke sheet, you would normally smoke it for 3 or 4 days before it is cured, a lot of wood. If you smoke for 24 hours then hot air dry the sheet will be graded as RSS grade 1.

Time for another cold one, so bye for now. Jim

HI Jim

Have been working with wood all my life, i have a fair understanding of wood drying. To dry wood is very similar to dry rubber i guess. I here try to share some of the fundamentals of wood drying.

Wood contain water, that is unwanted as wood change shape / size when the water content change and if water content are too high it will mold, same as rubber. Water content in wood change when the air humidity around it change. Air Humidity (amount of water in air) change with temperature and available water in the area. The higher air temperature the higher amount of water air can contain.

So when we dry wood we always think about humidity and temperature. Sometimes we even add water to the air in the drying kiln as we don't want the wood to dry too fast as that will crack the wood.

The water in the wood simply goes into the dryer air, as air circulate around the wood surfaces, and this happen slowly over time, this is the same for rubber i guess. So the dryer air we can have in a rubber drying kiln the faster the rubber will dry. Now dry air can be created in many ways either by higher the temperature of the air or by removing water from the air with a de-humidifier, like some air conditioners have that function. In most wood drying kiln's hot air is the mean of getting the air dry.

So the rubber kiln have to have a source of heating in some way. here there are many ways, I would explore the possibility of solar heating in some way. Maybe have the roof made of glass. And have the possibility of hot water heating like a boiler, when the sun is off. (search on google for "Solar kiln")

Next we need to make sure that the hot air is well and even distributed trough out the whole drying kiln, this is very important to make sure that all rubber is dried evenly. This is best done by having internal fans that in some way circulate the air all the time tough out the whole drying process.

The drying kiln need to have the function to release the wet air and take in dry air. This can be done with shutter fans like the one thais use in the toilet, one could attache a timer to open and close it at desired intervals, as it is not needed to run all the time. The shutter fan's can be used to control temperature and humidity. For each shutter fan you will need to have a equal size shutter vent for the air to get in to the kiln. Shutter fan and shutter vent have to be placed away from each other so the wet air do not go into the kiln again. Also it is best to place the shutter fan in the top of the kiln as that is where the hottest air is. Here I strongly recommend that you make the kiln as air tight as possible, small gaps to be sealed with silicon. This is critical for the shutter fan to work correctly.

We will need to make sure that the rubber sheets are hanged with enough space between them so the air can circulate easily over the surface of the sheets. And we don't want to have uneven loading of the kiln as then the circulation air will only go where it is easiest to go, where there are less rubber sheets or any open space.

Drying time will depend on kiln temperature, the outside air humidity and thickness of the rubber sheet's, in the winter time where it is very dry, at least in the north part of Thailand, it will be faster compared to the wet season.

What i have described above are a smoke free drying setup. I am not sure if the smoke it self, from burning wood, have any direct effect on the rubber sheets other than making them darker color. Jim ?

Wood used for indoor furniture's will need to have a MAX water content of about 7 to 8 % that will keep the wood stable and prevent cracking in most indoor climates.

So for rubber drying we need to establish the desired water content, what i believe is 2 to 3 %, Jim?

And we need to be able to test the water content to make sure we have reached the desired water content, I suggest that you place some (2 to 3 small test sheets) in the kiln that we can make test on after the drying is finished, Jim you know how to test sheets for water content after drying ? (scale, force dry, scale)?

Below a simple sketch of a wood drying kiln to give you some ideas how it works.

As you can see the air circulation fan in the top of the kiln is placed over the inner roof, this fan will force the air to the left side of the kiln and force it trough the wood stacked up in the middle and back up to the fan on the right side of the kiln. you can see that baffles (cover panels) are places in the top and bottom to make sure the air not go over and under the wood stack's.

Hope this is useful info.

Claus

HI all

Thanks for all the useful info you fill into this forum.

1 question I have, I think Jim talked about it earlier. It is estimated to harvest about 3 to 5 KG of rubber per tree per year (all depending on age, soil, fertilizer ect. ect.). The question i have is when we say 3 to 5 KG as a estimate is that dry rubber content or is this 3 to 5 KG of wet rubber. ??? (Jim??).

Another question for all of you. If you got a offer to buy land with 5 to 6 year old Yang on it what would you be willing to pay per rai in your area? i know many factors would affect the price but in average.?

By the way i found below link to a web site where people sell secondhand trucks, tractors, farm equipment ect. (all in thai) but easy to get a overview of what stuff cost's in this country.

http://www.truck2hand.com

maybe useful for some.

Claus

Claus,

3 to 5 Kg / Tree / Year is DRC.

Personally I wouldn't pay any premium over the price of empty land, for land with 5 to 6 year old Rubber trees.

I am sure that the trees won't be the type I want & won't be planted & cared for the way I expect.

Bad decisions & poor treatment of trees in the first few years can never be recovered.

Clause,

Mark 1971 has only seen shit trees taken care of by people who only planted them with the plan of selling them with minimum expense ,so of course the trees will be shit.I've seen many good 5,6 year old trees sell here in this area for100K to 200K per rai depending on if the paper is torbor ha or full paper .If the trees are torbor ha in a mountain around this area you can get 100K per rai,for good trees.However if right time right place you can get it for lessEG if owner needs money.I know of 1 farm here for sale on the side of a mountain ,24 rai torbor ha producing 30 KG to 35KG of dry sheet per day for sale for 2.5 million baht,so for sure you'd get it for 2.4 million,These trees are 8years old perfect trees.So it's a great buy.They are tapped 10 months of the year,So it's an extra 2 months tapping period than a dry area.Has electric and dam fed by spring for water.This is a better buy than 5 or 6 year old trees because first 2 years at least will give less rubber.So this farm can give you a great return from day 1.Just an example of what is around in this area.

Have another 20 rai for sale in this area,torbor ha 10 year old trees, 38 to 40 kilo of dry sheet per day,flat land small slope up in the back quarter of land.Has water electric and million baht house on it.So this is a bargain priced at 5million baht .tapped 10 months per year.Has extra 3 raia cleared behind farm allready with trees on it.Many people in this area mix bananas with the rubber,between the rows for extra income..This farm has 500 approx ,banana trees on it .Has other fruit trees on it also.

Had 25 rai torbor ha, sold not long ago here 6million baht.Trees 15 years old no electric These prices are normal in this area

Hope this is of help for you.

Cobbler

P.S. all farms in this area are shared at a 60% for owner and 40 % for worker

Clause - for what it's worth we looked at a block of 28rai in Kho saming area last week, 8 to 9 year old trees producing 800kg in 5 day of cut 2/rest 1 production for wet cup that sold last week at 42 bt/kg (from one popular agent but a long que wait to obtain that price) Land titled on Red Chanute about to go to Black Chanute for asking price of 7 mil Bt - Sealed road to the door, electric, good workers hut but no Bahn, impecably clean property with well cared for trees by 4 cutters who wish to remain. (I wish I had the money)

Hi

You might be right,,, but you numbers end up to about 14 KG rubber / tree / year. That for me sounds like a lot,,, a lot more than what the normal numbers are (4 to 5 KG / tree / year).

Maybe you should check the plantation / output more detailed before you buy it...

Claus

Cobbler,

2-3 Thai wives? Jeesus one is more than enough. 3 would kill me. On my land of 64 rai i have been the only one to plough,cut the grass between the 7m rows with our old Ford tractor in 8 years. I did all the pruning. Thai guys would strim between the 3m. The missus cut the grass on 10 rai where she cuts her trees, when i was out of action for 3 months with my septic foot this year. Bless her.

Claus,

chickens are really very good on rubber plantations, everything's right what Jim said re dogs etc.

Here's some more numbers;

Last year, first year of cutting, 28 rai of 7 year old RIMM 600 trees, 1750 trees out of 2220 trees cut, season 12th of may 2011 to 24th of jan 2012.

price fluctation from 81.90 baht per kilo to 44.10 baht per kilo, wet cup/kee yang all at auction, Udon province. Heavy rainfall season.

Total kgs 6309

total money in 407,533 baht.

Less cutters amount (40%) and money i spent on diesel, petrol and fertiliser looking after 64 rai in total, i had 131,723 baht in my pocket.

Does'nt sound great, but do'nt forget,

* 1st season cutting

* unusual heavyrainfall

*only 75% of the trees cut on that land parcel

* outgoings inc looking after another 36 rai

* this year we are already on 7,772 kgs, cutting 2350 trees (1850 plus 500 on 2 land parcels), with possibly another 6-7 weeks cutting left hopefully.

Mike.

HI

Thanks for the numbers, it support my estimations / calculations.

I estimate that you can have a average profit of about 400000 TBH / 50 rai / year (After all yearly cost is paid) . This could then go up or down 30 to 40% depending on all the factors that we can not control.

The bonus.:

After 25 to 30 years you can sell the rubber wood at about 3 to 4 million TBH for 50 rai of land.

After 25 to 30 years you have 50 rai of land that for sure have increased in value.

Boy's, if my estimation is way of pleas feel free to comment on this.

Claus

ClausGS

As said, there was a threat on this maybe 2 years ago, For memory there was some big producer from Lao and a few others who could not find buyers.

Get back with your results on price and demand, never know I may plant some if there is a market. Jim

Hi Jim

I asked some shops today, and most of them only have agar wood from India, Vietnam, and laos. I asked for wood chips (about 3 to 10 CM long) from India was 45000 TBH / KG, so i guess they might buy it at 20000 TBH / KG.

They say the Thai agarwood have a different smell and need to be 12 to 15 years old before doing the inducement. They say if the wood is very dark color you can sell it as wood chips, if lighter color you can extract the oil from it. This is all the information i got today, so I am not sure what we will do next.

Claus

HI all

Thanks for all your comments, very use full for me.

I know that you can not estimate ROI on rubber plantation to a very precise level, but i can at least get some ides where it could be at.

Just a crazy idea, maybe some of you have some comments on this.?

Would it be possible to have chickens running between the rubber trees???

I was thinking to have a smaller fence made in a smaller area of the rubber plantation. Could the chickens turn the weed into fertilizer.?, in this way no need to cut or deal with the weed problem, and at the same time the chicken shit will fertilize the soil what is good for the rubber trees. you could even sell or eat the chickens.

or will the chickens destroy the trees? if yes i could fence each tree.?

or maybe the locals will "borrow" some of my chickens from time to time.?

Claus

Rubber chickens....

my imagination running away with me.....wish I was a cartoonist.....

We have a few wild/feral chickens around our farm..chucked gun toting kids off a couple of times....

Hi

You guys can make fun of me, I just try to come up with some out of the box ideas, I think i will try it any way some time in the future, maybe with some other animals as well, you never know it might work in some way.

By the way any of you guys have any Agarwood planted on your land??, we have some planted and they are now 8 years old and ready for the inducement process. We are trying to find the inducement kit to do it but would like to have more options. any knowledge in this forum?

Claus

Sorry to tell you the Agarwood subject has been up before, seems that those who went into it now find there is no market, no buyers.

Interesting to hear if anyone has found a buyer.. .

I looked into it years ago and if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. Jim

HI Jim

I am in Bangkok at the moment and will go to one of the earlier soi's of sukhumvit next week. There they call it little Istanbul and they have lots of shops selling the black agarwood pcs in many different shops and other agarwood related products. I will try to figure out what the prices are and if any of the shops are willing to buy agarwood. This is for now the only place i know of where there is a lot of trade with this product. you might be correct that the price have droped and not a big market for it any longer, but the fact is that i have some trees that I will try to get the best out of.

Claus

HI all

Thanks for all your comments, very use full for me.

I know that you can not estimate ROI on rubber plantation to a very precise level, but i can at least get some ides where it could be at.

Just a crazy idea, maybe some of you have some comments on this.?

Would it be possible to have chickens running between the rubber trees???

I was thinking to have a smaller fence made in a smaller area of the rubber plantation. Could the chickens turn the weed into fertilizer.?, in this way no need to cut or deal with the weed problem, and at the same time the chicken shit will fertilize the soil what is good for the rubber trees. you could even sell or eat the chickens.

or will the chickens destroy the trees? if yes i could fence each tree.?

or maybe the locals will "borrow" some of my chickens from time to time.?

Claus

Rubber chickens....

my imagination running away with me.....wish I was a cartoonist.....

We have a few wild/feral chickens around our farm..chucked gun toting kids off a couple of times....

Hi

You guys can make fun of me, I just try to come up with some out of the box ideas, I think i will try it any way some time in the future, maybe with some other animals as well, you never know it might work in some way.

By the way any of you guys have any Agarwood planted on your land??, we have some planted and they are now 8 years old and ready for the inducement process. We are trying to find the inducement kit to do it but would like to have more options. any knowledge in this forum?

Claus

HI all

Thanks for all your comments, very use full for me.

I know that you can not estimate ROI on rubber plantation to a very precise level, but i can at least get some ides where it could be at.

Just a crazy idea, maybe some of you have some comments on this.?

Would it be possible to have chickens running between the rubber trees???

I was thinking to have a smaller fence made in a smaller area of the rubber plantation. Could the chickens turn the weed into fertilizer.?, in this way no need to cut or deal with the weed problem, and at the same time the chicken shit will fertilize the soil what is good for the rubber trees. you could even sell or eat the chickens.

or will the chickens destroy the trees? if yes i could fence each tree.?

or maybe the locals will "borrow" some of my chickens from time to time.?

Claus

HI all

Thanks for all the useful info you fill into this forum.

1 question I have, I think Jim talked about it earlier. It is estimated to harvest about 3 to 5 KG of rubber per tree per year (all depending on age, soil, fertilizer ect. ect.). The question i have is when we say 3 to 5 KG as a estimate is that dry rubber content or is this 3 to 5 KG of wet rubber. ??? (Jim??).

Another question for all of you. If you got a offer to buy land with 5 to 6 year old Yang on it what would you be willing to pay per rai in your area? i know many factors would affect the price but in average.?

By the way i found below link to a web site where people sell secondhand trucks, tractors, farm equipment ect. (all in thai) but easy to get a overview of what stuff cost's in this country.

http://www.truck2hand.com

maybe useful for some.

Claus

Claus,

3 to 5 Kg / Tree / Year is DRC.

Personally I wouldn't pay any premium over the price of empty land, for land with 5 to 6 year old Rubber trees.

I am sure that the trees won't be the type I want & won't be planted & cared for the way I expect.

Bad decisions & poor treatment of trees in the first few years can never be recovered.

Clause,

Mark 1971 has only seen shit trees taken care of by people who only planted them with the plan of selling them with minimum expense ,so of course the trees will be shit.I've seen many good 5,6 year old trees sell here in this area for100K to 200K per rai depending on if the paper is torbor ha or full paper .If the trees are torbor ha in a mountain around this area you can get 100K per rai,for good trees.However if right time right place you can get it for lessEG if owner needs money.I know of 1 farm here for sale on the side of a mountain ,24 rai torbor ha producing 30 KG to 35KG of dry sheet per day for sale for 2.5 million baht,so for sure you'd get it for 2.4 million,These trees are 8years old perfect trees.So it's a great buy.They are tapped 10 months of the year,So it's an extra 2 months tapping period than a dry area.Has electric and dam fed by spring for water.This is a better buy than 5 or 6 year old trees because first 2 years at least will give less rubber.So this farm can give you a great return from day 1.Just an example of what is around in this area.

Have another 20 rai for sale in this area,torbor ha 10 year old trees, 38 to 40 kilo of dry sheet per day,flat land small slope up in the back quarter of land.Has water electric and million baht house on it.So this is a bargain priced at 5million baht .tapped 10 months per year.Has extra 3 raia cleared behind farm allready with trees on it.Many people in this area mix bananas with the rubber,between the rows for extra income..This farm has 500 approx ,banana trees on it .Has other fruit trees on it also.

Had 25 rai torbor ha, sold not long ago here 6million baht.Trees 15 years old no electric These prices are normal in this area

Hope this is of help for you.

Cobbler

P.S. all farms in this area are shared at a 60% for owner and 40 % for worker

HI Cobbler

thanks for the info.

I think maybe my estimations are wrong then if i compare the KG per day you are talking about. A fast calculation, using you KG per day give an average of about 5 to 7 KG / tree / year.

What is your average income / rai / year, with the current rubber price about 50 TBH / KG???

I know it might be hard to say and depend on many factor's.

Claus

HI all

Thanks for all the useful info you fill into this forum.

1 question I have, I think Jim talked about it earlier. It is estimated to harvest about 3 to 5 KG of rubber per tree per year (all depending on age, soil, fertilizer ect. ect.). The question i have is when we say 3 to 5 KG as a estimate is that dry rubber content or is this 3 to 5 KG of wet rubber. ??? (Jim??).

Another question for all of you. If you got a offer to buy land with 5 to 6 year old Yang on it what would you be willing to pay per rai in your area? i know many factors would affect the price but in average.?

By the way i found below link to a web site where people sell secondhand trucks, tractors, farm equipment ect. (all in thai) but easy to get a overview of what stuff cost's in this country.

http://www.truck2hand.com

maybe useful for some.

Claus

Claus,

3 to 5 Kg / Tree / Year is DRC.

Personally I wouldn't pay any premium over the price of empty land, for land with 5 to 6 year old Rubber trees.

I am sure that the trees won't be the type I want & won't be planted & cared for the way I expect.

Bad decisions & poor treatment of trees in the first few years can never be recovered.

HI all

Thanks for all the useful info you fill into this forum.

1 question I have, I think Jim talked about it earlier. It is estimated to harvest about 3 to 5 KG of rubber per tree per year (all depending on age, soil, fertilizer ect. ect.). The question i have is when we say 3 to 5 KG as a estimate is that dry rubber content or is this 3 to 5 KG of wet rubber. ??? (Jim??).

Another question for all of you. If you got a offer to buy land with 5 to 6 year old Yang on it what would you be willing to pay per rai in your area? i know many factors would affect the price but in average.?

By the way i found below link to a web site where people sell secondhand trucks, tractors, farm equipment ect. (all in thai) but easy to get a overview of what stuff cost's in this country.

http://www.truck2hand.com

maybe useful for some.

Claus

The wife bought our land nearly 2 years ago.

At that time we were offered 10 Rai of non chanote land, with 6 year old RRIM 600's for 1.5 Million Baht. (It was sold before she could go & see it).

She bought 5 separate plots of non chanote empty land in the same area, totaling 200 Rai for just under 2 Million Baht.

Sure, you dont know what you are buying, but it seams that locals buy land with rubber in this way, 5 to 7 years old trees. I was just thinking that i might be better of selling my rubber land at 150000 tbh / rai. If i consider the average income to be about 70 trees x 4 kg x 50 TBH = 14000 TBH per rai per year. I will have to share 50 of that with the tappers, so left for me is 7000 TBH. If i do that for 10 years I will have a income of about 70000 TBH. This is all average and could be higher or even lower. If i sell at 150000 TBH / Rai i will have the same profit as i estimate my cost until now at about 80000 TBH / Rai.

Any thoughts to this???

Claus

HI all

Thanks for all the useful info you fill into this forum.

1 question I have, I think Jim talked about it earlier. It is estimated to harvest about 3 to 5 KG of rubber per tree per year (all depending on age, soil, fertilizer ect. ect.). The question i have is when we say 3 to 5 KG as a estimate is that dry rubber content or is this 3 to 5 KG of wet rubber. ??? (Jim??).

Another question for all of you. If you got a offer to buy land with 5 to 6 year old Yang on it what would you be willing to pay per rai in your area? i know many factors would affect the price but in average.?

By the way i found below link to a web site where people sell secondhand trucks, tractors, farm equipment ect. (all in thai) but easy to get a overview of what stuff cost's in this country.

http://www.truck2hand.com

maybe useful for some.

Claus

Hi

How many rai will you use that on???

Claus

Sent from my HTC Vision using Thaivisa Connect App

Economic Cabinet talks rubber price

BANGKOK, 25 July 2012 (NNT) - The Economic Cabinet on Wednesday discussed the rubber price situation in an effort to assist rubber farmers affected by the price drop.

Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives Natthawut Saikua said after the Economic Cabinet meeting at Government House that the Euro’s lowest value in 12 years and Spain’s increasing economic crisis had caused rubber prices in Thailand and foreign markets to drop by three baht. Mr. Natthawut assured that the ministry would continue with a project to develop farmer institutions in a bid to stabilize rubber price.

The deputy minister added that he had discussed with the governors of 47 provinces with rubber plantations about the project and requested their cooperation. He has also instructed the Department of Agricultural Extension and relevant units to further educate farmers about the project.

According to Mr. Natthawut, joint rubber measures between Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand are expected to be concluded within this week.

News ID: 255507250025

Reporter : suwit

News Date : 25 July 2012

NNT

Politicians talk, this joint agreement was supposed to have been done years ago, that was why the 5 Baht a kilo tax was for. They can say what they want, but in the end it is the buyers and demand that sets the price. As for some deal with the Chinese, that's a Government deal and if private buyers are paying more I will sell to them and not to the Government.

On a much brighter note, went and got another 100 cups [big ones] took then to the plantation. While walking around looking at how full the cups where. Now if someone else posted this I would be thinking BS. , but a few of the 750 mil cups were almost full from the nights tap. That would mean over the season, I have a few trees that will put out around 20 kilos of solid sheet rubber. Seems too good to me so I will have to go and see if it is a once in awhile occurrence or a continuous high output from some trees. Made my day though. Jim

Well Jim, it might just be that you have taken really good care of the trees as you earlier said,,,, well done.

Just a little China note.: China are producing latex by them self in the south west part. But labor prices here in China have increased a lot in recent years. Now a days a normal factory worker will get at least 12000 bath / month ( no education at all) and after 3 to 4 month experience 15000 bath / month, i think this is higher than Thailand ,,, would like to have your comments on the salary level in Thailand.

Claus.

I had a business before I came here importing from Thailand ,and would make 3 to 4 trips a year to Thailand to buy my products.Not trying to start a war,but ,if what you say is true about China having higher paid factory workers than Thailand.Much higher.Why could I always see many products products made in China ,sold in wholesale markets in Thailand.Thais wouldn't be buying them if they could buy it cheaper ,made in Thai.??????????

Well, there is still a lot of products exported from China for sure. In my company we buy furniture's and sell to retailers all over the world. In recent years we have stopped buying from China and started to buy from south east Asia instead, but only for very labor intensive products the main reason is price. So this is a direct effect of the increased labor cost in China. Trust me the 12000 to 15000 bath / month is a fact at-least for furniture factory workers. When i started the little china note in this forum I just wanted to inform all of you that we should not be too afraid of the competition from China's own Latex production. And with salary levels like this a lot more people can afford to buy cars in China. You can get a new mini car at 150000 bath, so this will for sure push the need for rubber up, what is good for us yang growers in Thailand.

Claus.

Economic Cabinet talks rubber price

BANGKOK, 25 July 2012 (NNT) - The Economic Cabinet on Wednesday discussed the rubber price situation in an effort to assist rubber farmers affected by the price drop.

Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives Natthawut Saikua said after the Economic Cabinet meeting at Government House that the Euro’s lowest value in 12 years and Spain’s increasing economic crisis had caused rubber prices in Thailand and foreign markets to drop by three baht. Mr. Natthawut assured that the ministry would continue with a project to develop farmer institutions in a bid to stabilize rubber price.

The deputy minister added that he had discussed with the governors of 47 provinces with rubber plantations about the project and requested their cooperation. He has also instructed the Department of Agricultural Extension and relevant units to further educate farmers about the project.

According to Mr. Natthawut, joint rubber measures between Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand are expected to be concluded within this week.

News ID: 255507250025

Reporter : suwit

News Date : 25 July 2012

NNT

Politicians talk, this joint agreement was supposed to have been done years ago, that was why the 5 Baht a kilo tax was for. They can say what they want, but in the end it is the buyers and demand that sets the price. As for some deal with the Chinese, that's a Government deal and if private buyers are paying more I will sell to them and not to the Government.

On a much brighter note, went and got another 100 cups [big ones] took then to the plantation. While walking around looking at how full the cups where. Now if someone else posted this I would be thinking BS. , but a few of the 750 mil cups were almost full from the nights tap. That would mean over the season, I have a few trees that will put out around 20 kilos of solid sheet rubber. Seems too good to me so I will have to go and see if it is a once in awhile occurrence or a continuous high output from some trees. Made my day though. Jim

Well Jim, it might just be that you have taken really good care of the trees as you earlier said,,,, well done.

Just a little China note.: China are producing latex by them self in the south west part. But labor prices here in China have increased a lot in recent years. Now a days a normal factory worker will get at least 12000 bath / month ( no education at all) and after 3 to 4 month experience 15000 bath / month, i think this is higher than Thailand ,,, would like to have your comments on the salary level in Thailand.

Claus.

Must be my day for the net, wife's in town having her face done,[ beauty shop] and I am all alone.

Anyway Claus your numbers are out.

First Dry rubber content in fresh latex [ liquid ] is about 35% now if you have 100 kilos of liquid latex it will make about 35 kilos of dry sheet. If you poured that into cups and allowed it to dry it will still be 35% DRC and will produce 35 kilos of dry cup.

On the buying of wet cup, I don;t know how they do it From the moment the latex leaves the tree it starts to dry at what point it turns from liquid to solid percentage wise I am not sure, but I know it keeps getting drier. One guy told me that on the 60 km drive to where he takes the wet cup he loses up to 200 kilos of weight and I can believe it. Have seen the pickups full of wet cup driving down the road with water running out the back. Love to know what the deal is, but no one seems to know what's going on. Jim

Think the average producing tree will put out 3 to 5 kilos a year of solid rubber, sheet or dry cup. If your trees are good well mantained you will get more. Jim

.

Well here in Beijing not so many beauty shop's, thanks for that other vise my wife would do the same...

Any way the calculation will look like below with your updated information.

100 KG fresh latex will give you 100 KG at 40 baht = 4000 baht (If one can find the buyer that are willing to buy wet weight)

100 KG fresh latex will give you about 35 KG dry weight cup at 53 baht = 1855 baht

100 KG fresh latex will give you about 35 KG smoked sheet at 87 baht = 3045 baht

so you get 1190 baht more to do the drying (in other words about 39% more)

so very clear for me is to go for sheets. so why is it that some suggest not to do sheets the first 1 or 2 years of tapping???

Claus

Claus never stored for more than 8 or 9 weeks, would like to keep the rubber longer until prices improve, but wife and kids, workers and their families seem to want to eat everyday. Need the money to live.

As to the question on transporting, it can be done, but can't see it being viable , that would be a 6 or 8 hour round trip, lots of fuel, wear and tear on the truck and a wage for the driver.

A better idea may be set up a small rolling shop on one plantation, make sheet and sun dry. when you have a truck load, transport to the smoking shed on the main plantation. Sun dried will keep a long time and if it starts to grow fungi you can just wash it off, before smoking.

A small rolling set up will not cost that much to build and will certianly workout much cheaper in the long run. Jim

that is a great idea Jim, in this way i will not need to transport the, about, 50% water in the fresh latex.

Thanks for your always great responses, you are for sure a great / experienced help to many of us here on the forum.

I have still not fully understood the reason for making smoked sheets as fresh latex is paid about 50 bath / kg, to make smoked sheets you will get about 50% less KG compared to fresh latex as during the drying process 50% water will be dried out, and smoked sheets is about 100 bath / KG. so same same but different????

Claus

Claus that is the question that has been bothering me of late. Think last time we sold Government buyers were paying 53 Baht a kilo dry weight for cup and 87 Baht for sheet or 34 Baht a kilo more for sheet, same same dry weight. Much better money for sheet, but this year for the first time wet cup buyers have appeared. They are buying for crepe makers, they are paying over 40 Baht a kilo for wet weight, think one guy got 47 Baht once. Can't see where there is any profit in these prices, really would think you would losing money. Only thing I can think off is the crepe makers are in fact the end users [shoe makers or something ] and they are not interested in making a profit at the rubber end, but on the final product end and are securing their supply while rubber prices are low [Chinese maybe ] Jim

Jim correct me if i am wrong...

100 KG fresh latex will give you 100 KG at 40 baht = 4000 baht (If one can find the buyer that are willing to buy wet weight)

100 KG fresh latex will give you about 60 KG dry weight cup at 53 baht = 3180 baht

100 KG fresh latex will give you about 50 KG smoked sheet at 87 baht = 4350 baht

so you get 1170 baht more to do the drying (in other words about 27% more)

For me that sounds like a good idea to make smoked sheets, with smoked sheets you also have the possibility to store and sell later on.

In a earlier post you mentioned in general 1 tree will give about 4 to 5 KG / year, when you say that do you mean wet cup, dry cup or sheets KG???

Claus

Claus never stored for more than 8 or 9 weeks, would like to keep the rubber longer until prices improve, but wife and kids, workers and their families seem to want to eat everyday. Need the money to live.

As to the question on transporting, it can be done, but can't see it being viable , that would be a 6 or 8 hour round trip, lots of fuel, wear and tear on the truck and a wage for the driver.

A better idea may be set up a small rolling shop on one plantation, make sheet and sun dry. when you have a truck load, transport to the smoking shed on the main plantation. Sun dried will keep a long time and if it starts to grow fungi you can just wash it off, before smoking.

A small rolling set up will not cost that much to build and will certianly workout much cheaper in the long run. Jim

that is a great idea Jim, in this way i will not need to transport the, about, 50% water in the fresh latex.

Thanks for your always great responses, you are for sure a great / experienced help to many of us here on the forum.

I have still not fully understood the reason for making smoked sheets as fresh latex is paid about 50 bath / kg, to make smoked sheets you will get about 50% less KG compared to fresh latex as during the drying process 50% water will be dried out, and smoked sheets is about 100 bath / KG. so same same but different????

Claus

Hi Jim,

Here's what they have done, used an oil drum as opposed to a pit, could be good to smoke some fish with as well

Thank the fish will be a bit rubber in taste. Shed looks good, you can always tell when a farang makes something. It looks like it can stand on it's own.

As for the fire pit same place as the locals, they just use wet clay to make a thing that looks like an olden day bread oven. If I can find a camera that works I will try and get a pic of one. Keep on smoking Jim

HI

So what you are saying is that you can easily keep sheets in a smoke oven like this for up to 1 year ???

Do this mean you will have to fire up the oven everyday?.

Claus

No. once it's smoked you can store it. Smoking is just away of preserving for storage or shipping. Think from memory it can be stored in a purpose built shed for up to 3 years without the rubber degrading. Don't know in this climate if that would work, but in theory a buyer from London, New York or Tokyo can buy and warehouse the stuff for years and still have high grade rubber. Jim

So Jim, are you producing smoked sheets and then store them until the price is high and then sell??

If yes, what is the longest time you have stored smoked sheets??

and how do you store the smoked sheets??

another issue i would like your comments on

we have 2 plots of land with yang, both about 50 rai each. They are about 3 to 4 hours car dive from each-other, would it be possible to transport the fresh latex from 1 plot to the other and use the fresh latex to make sheets. i ask as i do not plan to have 2 sheet factories running, i just want to have 1 sheet factory. for your info 1 plot is about 4 years old the other 1 year old so still some years before we start tapping.

Claus

Hi Jim,

Here's what they have done, used an oil drum as opposed to a pit, could be good to smoke some fish with as well

Thank the fish will be a bit rubber in taste. Shed looks good, you can always tell when a farang makes something. It looks like it can stand on it's own.

As for the fire pit same place as the locals, they just use wet clay to make a thing that looks like an olden day bread oven. If I can find a camera that works I will try and get a pic of one. Keep on smoking Jim

HI

So what you are saying is that you can easily keep sheets in a smoke oven like this for up to 1 year ???

Do this mean you will have to fire up the oven everyday?.

Claus

I guess, right now is the right time for fertilizer to be applied, as it is the start of the rainy season???