Mind

>On many Internet page, I read when the € go down more, we don't go to Thailand anymore,because its to expensive!

Sure some mass tourist destination, like Phuket , food costs me also nearly same in the restaurant 1700 bath for t 2 people every day!

When I stay in Thailand for a 6 month every year!,I think a still can save also when the € is low!

When I would stay in the eu, I pay 3000€ for the oil for heat, 400€ to 500€ every month for food, and In Thailand 2 people can have a good life for 1000€ month!

Or also 600€ 700€ on the country side!

You miss the point. You are correct that it is much cheaper to live in thailand than in euroland.

But only if you spend in LOS like you spend @home.

People that saying that they don't come anymore to thailand because it is to expensive are also right. But not compared with home but with the goodies that they want in LOS. Everyday a massage, western food, and "Hookers" can be expensive

>I still not understand, why the value of Thai bath not go down, before and after the flood!

When thausends of companys broken,and have production stop!

Can someone explain this?

If you destroy many things, you need to build up many things. Destruction is good for the economy.... sadly.

To the OP. In almost 30 years of speaking Thai i have only ever encountered resentment in the circumstances "Mind" outlined above, though never in the case of tones . Tones are rarely ,if ever, a cause of miscommunication, the context of the sentence will always make the meaning clear.

Keep up with the Thai!!!

Hmmm, i am only a thai beginner, but i have strong doubt about your statement that the contect of the sentence will always make the meaning clear. Yes, you can see out of the context that you talking about a shirt and not about a tiger. But how will you see out of the context if something is near or far away?

Here is a quote of Hugh Leong from a women learn thai interview:

What is the biggest misconception for students learning Thai?

The biggest mistake people have is not to stress the importance of Thai tones. In my opinion, if you get the tones wrong, no matter how much they are smiling at you, no matter how much vocabulary you know, no matter how well you read and write, no one will understand a word you say. Let me change that a bit. If you have someone you spend lots of time with, your partner, paramour, maid, golf caddie, they may be able to "decipher" incorrect tones and guess what you mean. That becomes more of an idiolect, your own personal language, which can be understood by only a few.

Here is why tones are so important. The sounds of English can be divided into 3 very important parts, consonants, vowels, and intonation. If you get any of these wrong then the person listening will have trouble understanding you. For instance, let's say we have trouble with our consonants. You want to say "Your life is fine," but you confuse the consonants and come out with "Your wife is mine", only two small consonant changes. But if you say this to the wrong person you will quickly see how important consonants are in English. In this case we say that the change in consonants is "morphemic", it changes the word's meaning. I don't think that anyone would say that it is unimportant to learn the English consonants and vowels. Then why do some people insist that Thai tones are not essential to being able to speak and be understood?

In Thai, tones are just as important as consonants and vowels. Changes in Thai tones cause "morphemic" changes in the words. They mean something different. If one speaks toneless Thai it is the same as saying all English words using only one consonant. "Your life is fine" becomes "Tour Tife is Tine".

No wonder Thais look at us incomprehensibly at times. I'm not saying learning Thai tones is going to be easy. I still get those looks sometimes. And when I do, I don't blame the listener for not understanding me. I know I just have to work a little harder at it. In one of my favorite books, Alice in Wonderland, Alice and Humpty Dumpty have a discussion as to whether "Saying what you mean" is the same as "Meaning what you say". I never could figure out who was right. But I do know that if we don't use the correct tones when speaking Thai we will always be meaning one thing and saying another.

http://womenlearntha...ers-hugh-leong/

You say that you’ve read a lot of posts from people who only tried a few hours, didn’t like it, and quit. If many people grow to hate a method in a few hours, that tells you something about it.

I can see that many don't like this method and stop after a few hours. But is this a statement about the method or the expectations from people? Many people want translations, ask questions, speak early and hate it to guess. It is no wonder that these people don't like the method. You should not go to this school without knowing what you can expect. If you want to speak early, want translations, want to ask questions and hate to guess what a word could mean, don't use AUA. But many start without being informed and they are disappointed that it is not like they expected it. No wonder that you read these complains.

>People get bored with it easily, and are frustrated with the fact that they can’t use the language even a little bit. This is a big problem, and shouldn’t be dismissed as “not pertaining to the method itself”.

As i said. If you have a special expectation, it is easy to get frustrated with this method. In the first 50 hours of each level, you can only understand very few things. If you are a "i have learnd 10 new Words every day for the last week"-Typ, then you will hate it. But if this is not the exception, the classes can be much more fun than normal language study. You watch a kind of amateur theater that is crafted to help you learn the language. If you can enjoy watching this kind of theater, this can be much more fun and less boring than normal repetition technics.

>I have read many posts from people who have studied 100-800 hours using this method. The majority of them are negative. Nobody says there is no benefit, but very few considered it worth their while, or want to repeat it with another language.

Your internet-kungfu must be better then mine. Nearly all postings that i read, were from people that only study a few hours. I read no negative posting from someone that reached level 5-10. I understand that there are 3 hard times with this method. In the beginning of level 1, in the beginning from level 3-4 and in the beginning of level 5-10. In the first 50 hours of every of these level, you need to tune in a complexity of the language that was previously unknown. This can be unpleasant. But if you know that you have a time in the beginning of each level when you feel lost, you can't lay back and try to enjoy watching two people interact. If you can't this method is not for you.

But i am sure, that many people also hate boring repetition with shadowing, chorosing and drumming vocabulary in your head. I hate this much more than watching people.

>Here is on sample thread:

http://how-to-learn-...5525&PN=0&TPN=1

I read it. Not one of the posting is from someone that visit AUA. As i said. I would be glad if you can show me some of the many posting you read from people that were longer at AUA.

>FSI states that you need about 1100 classroom hours over the course of about a year to reach fluency in Thai.

http://aladinrc.wrlc...urt_1999_07.pdf

My guess is that using FSI methods, it takes 1100 hours, and using ALG it takes 1900 hours. That’s because the 800 hour silent period does very little for you. In fact, all the benefits you get from the silent period can be had at the price of a few minutes a day of listening from the beginning.

The FSI never mentioned fluency in this document. They mentioned that 1100 hours are approximate learning expectations AT THE Foreign Service Institute. What level of fluency will you have after these hours? And also, these are the hours for talking only if i am correct. Reading and writing not included. The 1900(2000) Hours from AUA are all the content that they have and this includes reading and writing. The listening and speaking part goes normaly only till 1000 to 1200 hours.

> During the 800 hours, AUA uses a lot of TPR. Now TPR is an excellent technique, but it’s very limited. A few minutes a day for beginning students is beneficial, but it shouldn’t be the only method of teaching.

I am with you if you say that there is room to speed up the AUA-way. But i am not sure what methods are positive on the long run.

>I remember 2 Mandarin students who tried to use this silent period. They would beat up anyone who would disagree with them on the forum, and told us all how they would develop native like pronunciation, and that there was really no other logical way to start a language. One of those students quit after less than 100 hours, and became very quiet on the forums. The other went on to develop very good pronunciation. But he didn’t develop it using the silent period. He revealed that he quit that method and switched to one that worked much better for him – sentence chorusing. He spent hundreds of hours chorusing sentences.

And let me guess. The hundreds of hours chorusing sentences are big fun and not a bit boring?

I will try AUA and i will see if i find watching and guessing more boring that chorusing.

> 1. Boredom and frustration very early on causes failure

As i told you. I can see this as a problem for people that will start with wrong expectations.

> 2. Posts from people who used a 100 to 800 hour silent period usually say they regret it

I would like to see a posting of such kind.

> 3. Most polyglots think it’s a poor method

What i can understand. Polyglots are people with exceptionally handling of languages. That these people can learn a new language with other technics faster than with AUA is understandable. But most of us don't have an exceptionally inside of languages. And i think that for these kinds of people the method from AUA can be a better way to reach fluency than many others.

> The old ALG website and the famous blogger both show that after the silent period and some additional studies the learner only reaches a level which would be expected of him without the silent period.

I am not able to evaluate what level a learner should reach after this time. But i doubt that this level of fluency is the norm after this time. Many language forums are full of people that learn thai for many years and never reach such a level of luency.

> You wrote a little about language maintenance. In general, the higher level you learn a language to, the less you’ll need to maintain it. Do not for one minute believe that just because you listened for 800 hours you’ll never have to maintain the language. On the other hand, if you learn Thai to C2, you could probably leave it alone for years and get most of it back in a couple weeks of immersion.

I never told that you never need to maintain the language. But that many people complain that they alway forget what they learn from one vacation to another. With the AUA method this seems not to be the case. Even without beeing a C2 Thai speaker.

Well, IMO this method is no different from what you would get by simply moving up to Nakhon nowhere with your teelak and interract with her & the thai's all around you.

Thais are very sociable and curious so you will not lack 'teachers', that on top of it all are free at least in theory, if not in practice.

This is a little different. In the school you don't interact with others. You watch others interact. You don't comunicate, you watch comunication. If you interact with others, there is much more presure. It is a problem when you have times when you only understand 10% of what someone want to tell you.

Also, the others often have no clue how much you understand and talk to you with babytalk or without thinking about how to help you understand.

Also the school is more convenient. You can drop in every time of the day on every day on the week and they have a talk for your level of understanding. And they talk about everythink in the thai culture. The school is often more like a amateur theater that is crafted to help you understand. If you don't like it, don't take it.

First, i want to throw a stone back.....

Sorry. Please forget this crap. I mixed you up with leosmith and can not edit the post anymore.

Ok, so lets say the light kindled and you got it what a word meant during their theater,

but you didn't have time to write down in phonetic exactly how it sound.

So now you want to have them saying it a few times until you got it right, and can write down how it sound.

-But, are you allowed to interupt their pantomine show for a while and verify you guessed right in the first instance, and secondly go through the phonetics so you will be able to reproduce the sound accurately ?

First, i want to throw a stone back. If you respond to this post, will you please check your spelling and grammar?

interupt is wrong... please use interrupt. This is only to remind you that you are also not perfect and it is better not to mock people for not having a perfect spelling. Thank you.

Back to the topic.

No, they don't interrupt and repeat a word over and over. It is not necessary and impolite against the other students. You will hear the word thousand times and you are ready to speak if it pops in your mind without force.

abstract words need you hear a few hunded times till it makes click. But if you have them learned this way, you never forget it. If you learn explain = ahtibai, you forget it next monday.

I'm arguing the opposite, If i have to sit through a few hundred lessons to learn the word ahtibai, (or any other word that i currently have the desire to know), then it's a good bet i won't bother, in fact i have a gut feeling i will be pissed off if my teacher refuses and/or are incapable to explain a word i wish to know. (and i suspect most adult expats will react likewise)

If you go to Mc Donalds and don't get a steak, will you also be pissed off? When you start at AUA you can have an free hour to see if AUA is for you. They explain to you how AUA teaches and what you can expect. It is a key aspect from their philosophy that they want you to guess and stop wanting to be sure all the time. If you hear a word and think it means banana, it can happen that you find out that they use the same word while showing you a orange or when they putt 4 spoons sugar in a mug. And then you find out that the word they used was sweet and not banana. If you are allways sure and look up a word, you still build your new language on your first language. If you learn explain = ahtibai then you will allways translate ahtibai to explain and use the pathways in your brain from your first language. If you learn ahtibai from the context, you build a total new pathway that has nearly no connection to explain. If you than use ahtibai you use the thai ahtibai and not an other word for the english explain. This is the reason for not translating to you. You can find this supid, but for me it sounds right.

I havn't study or use thai for around a year now, and i learned that word perhaps 2 years ago by getting the explanation explain=ahtibai, and in spite of some massive beer consumption and a downright pispoor memory, i still remember that word.

I think the only somewhat functional memory i still have is a photographic memory, if i write it down i can remember with any luck, otherwise not ever, and i do get poked with it weekly by my gf

If you read the postings from other language learners, most language learners will confirm that they tend to forget words they only learned with flashcards and repetition. Many complain that everything they learnd last vacation is gone till the next. From what i heard, this is differend with the AUA-Method. I will confirm this in the future if this is right.

I saw a couple of videoclips, and can conclude it is the TEFL scam, but with another brand.

That is, teachers in this school is incapable of explaining without resorting to gestures & paintings,

likely due to a lack of education in their students language.

That they don't use your language is a feature and not a bug. And for the teachers quality womenlearnthai wrote:

Teachers: Honestly, even though I was (and still am) totally flummoxed by their passive learning methodology I’d be hard pressed to find more motivated Thai teachers. I’ve rarely met such good actors, ones who could mime out meanings of words to a group of foreigners better than the group of teachers they have there. The props are multi purpose. An umbrella can become a sword or a cane, given the need. Really, the teachers are quite the creative lot! My hat’s off to them for their skills in this area.

http://womenlearntha...nguage-program/

TEFL can get away with it since their students have no say anyway (thai kids sent to school),

but don't expect an adult expat paying for it.

I will pay for it and i am an adult. And other adults that went through this school wrote:

I stopped taking Thai class in March 2008, and I believe my blog covers my progress almost until the end. At that point I was able to converse about non-academic and non-technical topics without almost any problems, and even after I stopped taking class my listening and speaking continued to improve just by living in Bangkok and using Thai with friends.

Today I know a few Thai people at my school and can still speak/listen almost as before, but my reading and writing continue to weaken since I never use those skills.

I still firmly believe that an AUA style all listening method is by far the best way to learn to speak and listen! If I ever have the chace to study another language in the future, I will use the same method for sure.

This guy has a blog about his whole time at aua. And if it is a fake that it is the best fake i ever saw.

http://daninbangkok....01_archive.html

ps: i challenge anyone to draw a painting of the word 'explain',

or by all means upload a videoclip how to make a gesture that will explain 'ahtibai', faster than just saying

explain = ahtibai

Why would you need to draw a painting of the word explain? How did you learn explain in your first language? Was it impossible?

And do explain of what use a teacher is if he/she can't explain

They use speech and context. Some words are easy to grasp and you need to hear them only one to ten times and other more abstract words you need to hear a few hunded times till it makes click. But if you have them learned this way, you never forget them. If you learn explain = ahtibai, you forget it till next monday.

Let me see.....a year of study in a ed visa group is 180-200 hours, so 800 hours equal a bit over

4 years of listening to gibberish/'studying', with minimal translation & explanation i take it, and obviously no feedback in the form of homework.

I rest my case

AUA is no visa mill and you need to study 30 hours a week to get an edu visa from AUA. So you have no problem to get over 1000+ hours in one year if you want.

ps: the guy who couldn't understand 'pla jai gin pla lek', did he 'study' at this place perhaps ?

"pla jai gin pla lek" is easy. It means fish big eats fish little. And i learned to understand it only by watching the aua-videos on youtube. They always talk about eating in the videos and you can figure it out because they make an movement with the hand to the mouth. They also talk a few times about fish and many times about something smal and something big. All this things are easy to catch without translation.

Look from minute 6:45 and see how they talk about smal, big, fish and later about eating:

>I wanted to warn people from wasting their time using this method, based on the overwhelming negative data and reviews.

I allready ask about the negative data you mentioned. Have you negative data from people that spent more than a hand full hours at AUA?

The only negative data i am aware of complain that they don't use translations, they don't answer questions, you don't understand in the beginning most of what the teacher talk and that they ask for not to speak in the beginning. I am aware of these complains but think they are wrong and grounded on the wish to learn a language like you know it from school. With tests and learning vocabulary with repetition technics. And also, all complains i saw was from people that visit aua for only a hand full of hours. Do you have other data?

> I wanted to warn you to, but I realize I'm wasting my time.

You never waste your time in a public discussion. Even if you are not able to convince me, others read your arguments and if they are good, you saved them from being as stupid as i am.

> You praise this method, saying things like the learners and data are flawed.

I told you that i have only data about complains that i consider as wrong. It is a feature for me that they don't use translations. It is a feature for me, that they let you guess what a word mean and not answer your question. It is a feature for me, that i don't hear bad pronaunciation from me and other students but only native thai. Do you have data from people that spent more than a few hours in AUA? I did not found such data but i am really instrested in seeing it.

>Then you make excuses why the method probably won't work for you.

I am only honest that i can see that i will not follow the course to the end, because i am no expat. But i think that i can get 600+ hours and reach a level of understanding that will be enough to learn the last hours from watching videos.

>Enjoy your 800 hours of silence.

I am pretty sure that i will enjoy most of them, because the videos from aua on youtube give me a good overview over the classes i can expect.

>>I also read a lot of negative things about ALG, but most of the negative things i read are wrong from my viewpoint. Many complain that they don't translate, that you can't ask questions and that you don't understand the most when you start. These complains are total rubbish for me. Do you know other complains?

>You seem to like the theory. Read about the results. See the many posts by people who have started out with a long silent period. It's a terribly inefficient method.

Is it a terribly inefficient method or do the most learners want to speak yesterday and cant wait a little bit? How long do you need to speak without hesitation? I think, if this is the mark, than ALG is not so inefficient at all.

>> is speaking from the start something that can hinder you on the long run?

>Anything, if you do it incorrectly, can hinder you. I learned to speak Thai from the beginning, as have many others.

And let me guess. As soon as you open your mouth, you can be identified as a foreigner?

>> The transliteration is not able to show you many things, it is differend from site to site and offen false.

>> Is it only from learning something incorrect or also from storing the learned in the wrong place in your brain? If you learn vocabulary with flashcards, you use the pathways in your brain from your first language to remember the second language. This will probable lead to a permanent translation proccess, a bad gramma and most of the time a bad accent in your second language.

>I've never met an adult who learned a language without any translation. The theory that translation is somehow damaging to language learners is ridiculous; people have been learning languages through translation for thousands of years, and we don't learn them any faster or better now than before.

I don't find it ridiculous. Fact is, that even retarded childs learn to speak their language without problems. An other fact is, that nearly no adult learns a second language so well that he/she speaks like a native. There is no way that almost all adults are to lazy or stupid to learn a second language. There must be something that hinder adults to learn to speak a second language like a native. And we know that the brain of a adult can make new connections and learn new things.

And we know for sure, that you can influence how an information is stored in your brain. And that if you store it wrong, you can't find it when you need it or only with a longer thought proccess.

And it is not rediculous to believe, that you store a language different if you learn it with flashcards or when you see the use of it in a context.

And it is not rediculous to believe, that you build your second language on the first language pathways in your brain if you use translations from the beginning. You can easily see this in the most foreigner, when they pronounce some vowels with their mothertongue or build sentences with the grammar of their first language.

> By all means, sit in silence for 800 hours when you start, and let us know how that goes for you. I wish you luck, but feel you will almost certainly fail.

I can also see the possibility to fail because i am no expat and have only 12 weeks per year in LOS. But the reason for the failure will not be that the method is not working but that it is a method that is hard to use for non-expats.

> And one final request. If you respond to this post, will you please check your spelling and grammar? Gramma = grandmother.

I do my best, but english is not my first language and i have no spellchecking on this computer. But i think i write good enough that you understand me.

>> But they don't use them anymore. They "now" use a method that they call "automatic language growth". You learn the language only by watching two teachers interact and talking thai. They claim, its is much better, because you build a complet new understanding of the language instead of using your first language as base. They also advise you not to speak the first 600-1000 hours of learning thai. After 600 - 1000 hours of only watching, hearing and guessing, you reach a level of understanding that helps you get a pronunciation that will be nearly native.

>This is true. It's a terribly inefficient and ineffective way to start a language. It's good to listen, but what they do is ridiculous. Almost everything I've read about it has been negative.

I also read a lot of negative things about ALG, but most of the negative things i read are wrong from my viewpoint. Many complain that they don't translate, that you can't ask questions and that you don't understand the most when you start. These complains are total rubbish for me. Do you know other complains?

>Some people like it, but if you compare what they accomplished to what can be accomplished using more traditional techniques, they didn't do very well. I've read posts from many people who started with this technique, and quit out of disgust, poor results, or boredom.

I also read such posts, but most of them took only 1 to 10 hours and complained that they can't understand the teachers, that its lame that they don't speak english, and that they can't measure learning 10+ new vocabularys per day. Yes, the beginning is much slower than with other technics but i think that it will win in the long run. I think, that the reason why so many hate ALG is that we all want to learn a language to communicate. And most of the time we want to communicate yesterday. So a method that says that you should wait with speaking till 800 hours listening is like torture for many. With other methodes you can communicate from the start and this is much more appealing. But is speaking from the start something that can hinder you on the long run? I think so.

I think the biggest negative and for me the only negative point of ALG is, that most of us don't have the time to sit 800+ hours in a classroom.

>>understanding the thai alphabet is a must if you want to learn oldschool and get the pronunciation.

>one can develop good pronunciation by starting with transliteration too

I don't think so. The transliteration is not able to show you many things, it is differend from site to site and offen false. I learned Ko Tao from transliteration and in real life it is more like go dao. And the funny thing is, that the transliteration Ko Tao is correct if you use the royal thai general system. Transliteration sucks badly and everyone that want to learn thai should learn the thai alphabet from the beginning.

>>I now stoped learning because i think you can damage your ability to learn a second language.

>I assume you're talking about fossilization. It's only a problem if you learn something incorrectly, and have to relearn it later.

Is it only from learning something incorrect or also from storing the learned in the wrong place in your brain? If you learn vocabulary with flashcards, you use the pathways in your brain from your first language to remember the second language. This will probable lead to a permanent translation proccess, a bad gramma and most of the time a bad accent in your second language. If you learn from listening, looking and guessing, you build new connections that let you think in the second language from the beginning. I think, that learning the wrong way can also lead to fossilization.

>>"I think, that if you learn vocabulary and gramma from the beginning, you build the second language on your first language and your brain translate it all the time. If you first learn only with looking, hearing and guessing, you get the vocabulary, gramma and pronounciation for free."

>In general, you can make some language skills easier if you focus on other skills, but you won't get anything for free. Don't believe the hype.

Yes, it is not for free. But you don't need to torture yourself with flashcards and boring repetition technics. I find it much less boring to watch two persons interact with many visual clues. But every person is different and if you find repetition less boring than watching persons interact, than it is fine.

listening is good, but a lot of people like to see the written words too. Learning thai alphabet will assist with the pronunciation greatly !

I was last november the first time in LOS and learning the alphabet was the first thing i did after my vacation. I used "60 minutes to learn thai alphabet" and thai-languagedotcom and the begining of the manee story. Yes, understanding the thai alphabet is a must if you want to learn oldschool and get the pronunciation. But even with understanding of the thai alphabet i am not able to hear the tones yet.

I now stoped learning because i think you can damage your ability to learn a second language. You need to read early only if you want to learn vocabulary and speak early. I think, that if you learn vocabulary and gramma from the beginning, you build the second language on your first language and your brain translate it all the time. If you first learn only with looking, hearing and guessing, you get the vocabulary, gramma and pronounciation for free.

But i understand that many people are against this learning method. I think that it will work better then others and i will try it. I don't want to be one of the many people that try to learn thai for many years and still speaking with a pronounciation that no thai understand.

I've never heard of a school with only 2 text books, and I don't mean that in a good way.

AUA Bangkok has zero text books, gives you no homework and advice you not to learn vocabulary. And i think that the method from AUA Bangkok works better then most other schools. But many don't like the method from AUA, because they think that language learning must hurt.

The truth is, not every method works for everyone. Some like walen, some like flashcards, some like AUA.

I have some old textbooks from AUA...so they must have them. They are quite good.

But they don't use them anymore. They "now" use a method that they call "automatic language growth". You learn the language only by watching two teachers interact and talking thai. They claim, its is much better, because you build a complet new understanding of the language instead of using your first language as base. They also advise you not to speak the first 600-1000 hours of learning thai. After 600 - 1000 hours of only watching, hearing and guessing, you reach a level of understanding that helps you get a pronunciation that will be nearly native.

There is a blog from a guy that went to AUA bangkok and loved it. Search for "daninbangkok blogspot" if you are interested.

In one year he went from understanding no thai to speaking better then most expats. And the blog looks genuine and not like a marketing scheme. I was not there, but i plan my next vacations to visit this school.

I've never heard of a school with only 2 text books, and I don't mean that in a good way.

AUA Bangkok has zero text books, gives you no homework and advice you not to learn vocabulary. And i think that the method from AUA Bangkok works better then most other schools. But many don't like the method from AUA, because they think that language learning must hurt.

The truth is, not every method works for everyone. Some like walen, some like flashcards, some like AUA.