easyb

For me Asian and Thai is just fine thank you very much but it's really the individual. The range from my subjective view really varies. For percentage of the population male and female hands down out of the 35 or so countries I've been to it's Spain. The Spanish are stunning at a high percentage and they age well. Just talking about this with someone the other day who'd come back from Spain and noticed the same thing.

...EDIT---old ass thread    thanks for wasting my money

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...EDIT - holy cow how did I let this rant go for an OLD thread - but it's been building for awhile so I'll let it stand.

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I think the OP was a member for two days about 9 months ago . Never mind, he gave you both a chance to get something off your chests!

I wonder if this forum software can have an automatic "Close thread" function after, say, 3 months?

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Yes I feel so much better now and promise to be more careful in the future.

This money thing is so tiresome. I'm sorry but I can't help but feel that it comes from such a condescending Western point of view. We Farangs (I'm from the US) don't care about money. Nooooo we are all about loftier things, higher ideals and such. Give me a break. It is a rare western woman, no matter her career, who doesn't look at a man and think about his earning potential. And the guy is thinking about sex... Wake up people, let's have coffee. Come on now, money is important, we all need it, we work our butts off to get it. And outside of 13 year old puppy love money considerations enter into every relationship. Let's see how much luck a guy has in Europe dating women and telling them he's not much into making money but since it looks like she is doing OK maybe she could take care of him. Let's get off the frickin' high horse on this one.

I had a wife for many years, mother of my children. I know she loved me. I also know that part of the deal was that I would be the breadwinner. Did I think she loved me for my money? No. Did she feel insecure or angry when I didn't make enough? Yes because she thought she had a deal. She wanted a man to take care of the family's financial needs and she'd take care of the home. I was happy to do that. (not happy with other things but that's a different story). Money (can we call that survival) is a basic in a relationship.

Are there Thai women who take advantage of Farang men and their money? Of course. Are there Farang men who pay money for the same women's time and attention? OK so it's about money on one level and may the best man(woman) win if that's the game. I have an ex-bg gf and I know very well what I represent to her and her family in terms of money. I'm not afraid to admit that money was the starting point of our relationship. Money is still an issue sometimes. It's something like any couple anywhere we have to talk about and work on. I know that at times I must seem like a limitless source of cash - our respective situations are just so different in this regard. But I don't find her coming from any position that's dishonest, disingenuous, or dishonorable. If it was just about money I suppose that's a deal she might make if she's feeling backed into a corner. But she was looking for more, as I am sure every Thai woman is, she's looking for companionship, for respect, for kindness, for fun, for a good father for her daughter, for a fulfilling and secure life - for heaven's sake she's a human being just like everyone else on the planet. And oh yes, if you understand Thai culture you know that she cares about family. What have we sunk to when this is cause for derision?

I'm not going to point any fingers here - there must be 50 posts a day on TV that irk me in this regard. The shallow and superficial comments I see from Farangs sitting in some high place of judgment and self-righteousness. What's that all about anyway? Where's that coming from? If you can't tell a real relationship from one you paid for then God bless the woman that has your money.

To the OP. Take you time, go slow, trust your instincts and take some time to learn about, and respect, Thai culture. And of course look for someone who will take the time to learn about and respect your culture. And about money - talk about it like every other couple does.

EDIT - holy cow how did I let this rant go for an OLD thread - but it's been building for awhile so I'll let it stand.

Said "Yes"?? . I think regardless it doesnt matter, but not so sure about those govt types. BTW there is no way they can ever prove she worked in such employment.

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They don't have to prove it. They just have to decide that they think she is lying and make their decision. And they can make the decision on a broad number of factors, of which risk of return is a big one.

For me the question seems to hinge on something different. Does the case officer trust the applicant? Past work in this line might be an indication of behavior that might make the person unsuitable or indicate a predilection for willingness to overstay visas for instance. That's a factor for them to consider along with employment, ties to Thailand, relationship and other things. What I don't know here, and for me the nut of the question, is all things being equal does honesty improve trust or does the officer prefer to ignore what he knows is a probable lie if he otherwise trusts the applicant?

The title could lead one to think it's exploitation. They could have done a lot better on that. But that aside I can't imagine any Western-Thai relationship that wouldn't benefit from reading this book. It takes very core and basic values of our respective cultures; say Independence for Western and Interdependence for Thai and helps you understand the other person's experience and viewpoint and how this can play out in the relationship. The fact that it's in Thai and English makes it very useful. My gf loved it. "Now I understand you, I understand about you and money now". Likewise.

Totster you may be right.

My GF has an application in the embassy now that says "yes" to the question. The interview is in a few weeks. There is one complication to this being a good data point for our collective wisdom. Our plans may change and she may not come to the US right now (I may come the other way). I was confused enough before now who knows. She has to go in to get her passport so will go for the appointment. Should / can she withdrawn the visa app? Should she say what the heck and see what happens by going through the interview? If it's a no then that's a factor for refusal another day? Is the app always on record now? I'm into four dimensional chess in terms of trying to grok the path forward at this point.

To be honest I don't know why there aren't posts with more experience here. I can understand people being afraid but seems you could always say "I hear of someone that did X" ;-) I'm guessing everyone is lying but I've no data to base that on. I suppose I might lie but my GF says she doesn't want to and more power to her. She's an amazing and proud woman who has really turned her life around and just wants to be honest about her life and let the chips fall where they may. Through everything she's become someone I really look up to and respect so maybe that's the meaning beneath the maddess.

Question number 34 or 35 on the US visa form asks if the applicant has ever worked as a prostitute. I looked into this and my conclusion was that “Yes” is grounds for denying the visa but not a defacto rejection. My understanding from reading as much as I could was that you file for the waiver after the visa has been declined. So far I haven’t heard from anyone on TV who knows of anyone who answered ‘yes” and got a visa. (or someone who answered “yes” and was declined for that matter) I just don’t know how to how far the officers will accept a “no” when they are 80% sure how you two met. Or if a “yes” could be OK if everything else looked in order, there was current proper gainful employment, etc. and maybe the honesty would help. I don’t have a &lt;deleted&gt;’ clue. Net with my gf was she wanted to answer “yes” and see how it went. Interview in a few weeks.

What's the name of this NGO and what do they call the program you enrolled your girlfriend in?  Seems like lots of people here would like to know.

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I’d rather not give the name of the organization. They are a small org with a focus is on a sector of social work and not in the area of doing internships or training program. This was their first internship position. I happen to know of their US counterpart via work I do with non-profits here in the US and via that contacted the Thailand Director and made a proposal for this internship. We exchanged a couple emails and came to an agreement. My gf would do whatever they wanted work-wise as long as it wasn’t exclusively menial and there was an element of training for new skills (for instance they give her projects or responsibilities that require a computer every week). They could fire here at any time if she didn’t workout and keep my donation. My gf went to an interview and they accepted her. It was pretty simple really. From there I haven’t done anything. I checked in with the director a couple times and always got good reports. (I felt it was important that I didn’t badger or interfere so I think this was 2 or 3 times over the entire year and just an open “how’s it going”)

Before I came up with this option I considered different things. My goal was the same. I wanted to help my gf build a better life by being self-sufficient. We discussed her going to school, maybe learn English and Computers or a trade like hairdresser school. An internship could just as easy be with a company in the private sector. It’s about her interests and your imagination. For instance if someone wanted to work in the resort business there must be dozens of small to mid-sized hotels or guest houses that might take someone on and teach them the office skills, or a travel office. In terms of NGO’s in Thailand if you just spent an hour on Google I bet you could find dozens and dozens with contact names and everything. Start sending email and making the proposal.

Steve above had good comments about helping his bf who has a bar. In my gf’s case there were a series of financial challenges in her family what would make it hard to live on 5000 per month. If she had some job she had wanted to do that paid only that amount I’d have been happy to help make up the difference. There are so many ways and different individuals. I guess the bottom line to me was two fold: One aspect is the personal responsibility versus dependency and building independence and confidence. The other was an opportunity to see how this person functioned in the “real work world”, handled responsibility, social skills, etc. If she’s a bg because she’s unmotivated to do anything else or just thinks it’s a good way to make a living that’s not such an interesting person to me and seems a likely person to take my money and that of a few guys and consider herself lucky. If she’s truly doing it because it seemed like the only option to get out of a hole she was in then I got to see what happened when I provided an alternative opportunity. What I saw was wonderful. A very sincere, totally honest, hard working and fun loving person who seized this opportunity and never looked back. If we end up together it will be a happy thing, if not she’s off on the life she dreamed of and proud of having done that.

Somewhere up the thread the issue of work came up – which I’m surprise how little it does in relation to sending money. I guess this is where my values come in but I think people should work for what they get and it’s good to help people who help themselves. My case is a typical meet the bg and want to help knowing (at least in retrospect) all the pitfalls. For me, from the get go, it didn’t make sense to just send money. If the person was sincere about wanting a better and different life how did this help? If I just send money to an able bodied person, enough to live on, what are they going to do all day? Watch TV? Think maybe it would be good to have two guys sending money? Even if it’s not much money for me why should I be working my butt off so someone can stay at home and do nothing? For me this just didn’t make sense. My solution was to find an organization and fund an internship for a period of time. The deal was they would provide a job and training where the person would learn new skills. I would pay for the cost (wage, insurance, tax, etc.). The person would work in the job at the discretion of the manager. If she didn’t do a good job, didn’t show up then she should be fired and the organization could keep the money I’d paid. I wasn’t going to interfere. A year later my gf now has learned valuable skills, has a lot more confidence and has been given the job on a permanent basis without more money from me. She earned it. Maybe this cost me a little more but I think the mutual value was huge. (it didn’t cost so much really because the organization was an international NGO so from a US perspective my donations were tax-deductible and employer matched). My gf got some great training and experience, this organization that does really good work was able to do more for other people and I got in essence a 3rd party reference check; that she was responsible, trustworthy, got along with people, was given more responsibility and that she is a very, very hard and dedicate worker. It was a win-win-win.

IMHO giving money to able bodied people reinforces a kind of dependence. Now I have a gf with a good job, a good future and money in the bank. Am I happy to help her more or treat her to something nice now and again? Sure why not. But for our singular case this really helped and grounded our relationship in a solid, mutually respectful way.

Lastly I don’t at mind the idea of sending money to the parents. That is the Thai way, that is the cultural and social system and within that it’s the right thing to do. Nor do I mind the idea of supporting a wife with kids or taking care of the home if it comes to that. But sending money 8000 miles so someone can just do nothing and not improve their ability to do something productive with their life? Not for me.

Thomas is on the right track. Your GF must and wants to send money to her parents. 5000 is a very decent amount if they are in the village or working a low-skilled job in Bangkok. The 10,000 range is probably good for the GF.

While I don’t go for stingy I do think it’s good to stay to the low side because special requests will come up. You will pay out 10000 or 20000 from time to time (or at least get asked); the family has a loan, the house needs work, they have a problem. It’s good to just factor this in. I personally don’t think it’s the greed that others might but I have an experience of one. Someone above mentioned the book “Thailand Fever”. You and your gf should read this IMHO, it helped us with money a lot. We understand and communicate better about this. There is a gap in thinking, perceptions on money that is very wide.

When I was last in the village we had a party at her parents. Sometime in the evening my gf asked me to give her father 500 b to go buy more whiskey or beer. I didn’t have a 500 so I gave him 1000. The next day he gave me the 1000 back as he ended up not buying anything. 6 months before he would not have done this, he would have kept the 1000 I believe as a windfall. But now he knows that I respect family and if I stay with his daughter (which I hope does work out) that I will take care of family. There is the steady 5000 + the extras that come up. So now we have trust and he can give the 1000 back knowing that it’s there when needed. I btw talk to the parents about money, whenever possible I try to be the one that actually hands it over. I think it takes some of the pressure off the gf in the middle for those special requests and in a symbolic way makes it clear the source of the money.

On the salaries my gf has a low-skill administrative type job in Bangkok that pays 13000 per month. She works 5 ½ to 6 days a week, 10+ hours per day. This is a very good job for her. Most Thais in regular jobs also get a 13th month of pay each year.

For anyone who had experienced the magic and challenges of these relationships, the distances cultural and physical, the complications of bureaucracy and economics - and somehow try to stay sane with some modicum of perspective we have to look to you as someone who stuck it out, who believed in the face of daunting experience and in the end prevailed to take things to the next stage. Good for you two!!! Congratulations and best of luck. Now on to the fun and the hard work.

I think that working as a prostitute is considered a "crime of moral turpitude" in US State Department-speak.  And it definitely disqualifies you from receiving a visa.  I'd skip over that part of her resume if I were you.

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Clearly an honest “No” is the best.

I did a bunch of Google research on this and my conclusion was that “crimes of moral turpitude” were grounds for inadmissibility but not a defacto rejection and not a rejection required under law.

The balance in my mind was a situation where the officer would be 90% sure the applicant was lying even though it’s not worth their time to prove it. Is the applicant better off just staring down the officer or being honest in the first place? If the person is showing that they are being honest for a difficult question does it help their overall case? I think in the end the officer is much more concerned about their desire to return to Thailand from the US than if they worked as a prostitute at some point in time. That said if they think this person is only coming to the US to work as a prostitute that would clearly be huge negative. But I assume that every day they extend visas to Thai women whom they assume met their BF or fiancé in a bar but issue the visa on the preponderance of otherwise good evidence. But if everything else is in order and the person is presenting their case honestly and sincerely does this honest answer work against them or not – that I can’t say.

Now that I’ve said all that it’s clearly just a bunch of assumptions. Would love to hear someone with real experience (even second hand).

I asked this same question awhile back and didn't get much response. Didn't find anyone who knew anyone who answered "yes" with results one way or another. My inclination was to advise my GF to say "no" but in the end she wanted to tell the truth as there were some circumstances that she'd have to talk around and she just felt they would know she was lying. My sense of her is that if the questioning got tough she'd not hold up and then you've lied on an application and that can be a permanent rejection. To balance the "yes" she really did the work on proof of other prior jobs, school, etc. as well as good evidence of a very respectable job the past year or so with verifiable employer reference. What I could never figure out is to what extent they have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and even though they know the odds of how the two met they don't push it. Or if opposite - they try to catch people on the lie?

In my overall research on this I found that working as a prostitute in the past is not a required rejection, the officer can use judgment either way. There is an appeals process but I don't have a clue on the success rate. It was a big role of the dice for us but honesty just seemed the right way given the circumstances. Interview is in about a month so then we know how this played out. (or course rejection could still be on concern of return and not this past work, not sure to what extent she will know why the rejection if that's the case)

Good luck,

Ajaran has given you some great advice.

Take your time, take things a step at a time, understand that “truth” or “reality” can be subjective no mater where you come from and when you mix cultures some patience is due while trust is built. You might say “trust but verify” – and if things are a little out of kilter now and then apply a little understanding with the critical assessment – if they are way out of whack don’t hesitate to face facts. You just have to walk that balance of keeping your eyes open and being so paranoid you don’t give it a chance. Is that really so different than any other relationship where love is involved? Just more complex when you mix cultures. And wonderful in a way.

btw my GF & I found the book “Thailand Fever” worthwhile (it’s in Thai & English). Sure it’s a lot of generalizations but for the two of us it opened our eyes to our respective perspectives. Now we have an added way to talk about these things. The other day I asked her something about money. She responded “you know I lie you” – once I stopped laughing at the comment, delivered with a sly smile, I appreciated the depth of self-understanding. She knew quickly, as I did on reflection, that she was unable to accurately answer the question the way I’d set it up and yet her instinct was to go ahead and make something up. When we just stopped, reflected and communicated we found a middle way that respected each other’s needs and perspectives. It’s just eyes-open and hard work IMHO.

I don’t know how to assess the odds – surely they are tough if you count every guy who came for two weeks and fell in love. But best I can tell there are a lot of very happy couples out there. Good luck!

I don’t at all disagree that any generalization is bound to be untrue at the individual level. However, with that caveat I found “Thailand Fever” a very useful read on male farang / female Thai relationships. There was a lot that rang true. Even if not every generalization is accurate in every relationship it did get me to take a big step back and think about the assumptions and conditioning my GF and I each bring to the table. As Marshall McLuhan said "We don't know who discovered water, but we know it wasn't the fish."

The fact that it is in Thai & English makes it a good way to share a dialog about these things. We have to discover for ourselves what it means and how it applies but I am looking forward to talking about some of this with my GF when I’m in Thailand next.

As for “Private Dance” I wasn’t impressed (both for writing quality and insight) at all but I suppose it’s a worst case outcome of two people who disregard what you might learn using ideas in something like “Thailand Fever” as a starting place for open and respectful dialog. Relationships without communication, without shared understanding, seem to me to be dysfunctional at best and doomed in most cases regardless of the cultural mix. The farang/Thai is just one variation with it’s own challenges but they are all hard work in my experience.

I read whatever I can, I talk to people, I read boards like this, etc. because as Buckminster Fuller said “You can’t learn less” (quotes are jumping into my head today). Then I can synthesize my own opinions and judgments from a better informed place. Abet a very Western intellectualized process…

Lastly reading “Jasmine Nights” as recommend on this board and am really enjoying it. Yet another take, anther perspective, on Thai culture and life, this time from a very magical perspective of a 12 year old boy. Highly recommended.

And good luck to Spuds - this is an tough saga and I wish you the best!

I have some questions I and/or my GF would like to discuss with a Thai immigration attorney about a US visa. Don’t need full service, have the applications, forms, supporting info etc. in what best I can tell is pretty close to complete state. There are some questions that we’d like to discuss with a professional, confidentially. Probably a one to two hour consultation.

Any recommendations for someone? Preferably in Bangkok who can speak Thai but US based (assuming knowledgeable) is possible. I don’t want a big retainer and don’t need a full-service A-Z service. Just want to have a consultation to clear up some questions.

Thanks for any help

Thanks all - this was very helpful!

Going to stay in village in the area about mid-way between Roi et and Savankhet, north of Ubon Ratchathan. Will have car. What are good day trips to take in this area?

Thanks for any tips or pointers.

Having taught a little English in Thailand I know better than try to explain why anything is the way it is in English. I don't have a clue at times and just avoided some words. Anyway...

Clearly I made my point too obscure, for which I apologize. Here’s the nut of the post:

Am I misunderstanding things or are there words where the vowel is implied but not written or words without vowels? If ผม is the right way to spell pom how do I know from reading this that it’s not pum or pem or pim?

Starting to appreciate the phonetic-ness of Thai but I don’t know why vowels have to float around like some lost tribe. But that’s not my point, well it is sorta because some do seem to be lost. I’m starting to see words that don’t have vowels even though the word has a vowel sound. Like ผม

Why isn’t this ไผม (or better yet ผไม but I won’t go there)

Maybe my eyes are just getting worse by the day and it's time for new glasses but I find the Thai in many books very hard to read. I've been meaning to post and see if there is a dictionary that has bigger Thai script type than Becker. I can’t read that.

I am very worried I’m going to be soon walking around Thailand with a one of these

My gf says that she need to go to the Thai passport office and get a microfilm (her word so not exactly sure what she gets) of her passport records to show she hasn't had another passport. I haven't heard this and don't see it on the list from the US embassy nor have I seen it here. She says a friend got it for her visa to Germany. Anyone heard of this? Is this a good to have?

And as we tie up lose ends - I think she/we have gotten together about everything I've seen listed here: bank statements, photos, travel records, letters from employers, references, phone records, family stuff, all the right forms and such. Are there any last bits of advice of pieces of paper that seemed to make a difference? As long as we have a truck full it might as well be a full truck.

Thanks,

Can't say anything about Khon Kaen but in February (to vote) took my first trip back to the GF's village to the east of Roi et - out by Nong Phok. As described below. Had a good time, was treated well. Do have to roll with the punches but the kindness, the food, the good times, the wonderful slow pace - and the feeling of being far, far away were all well worth it. Will go back in April for a longer stay and can't wait. Go and have enjoy.

Thanks Chonabot – I looked up both “Jasmine Nights” and “Letters from Thailand” and both looked very good so I ordered them. Good reviews on amazon.com.

KhunPadThai "Four Reigns" also sounds good also so now that’s on the reading list. Thanks to you. Wish I had recommendations for you but as in so much Thai I’m a newbie – but as they say “you start at the beginning”

Khun Larry – yes I suspect that might be true, the novel is in itself a relatively new convention and it seems to me even in Western culture it didn’t really blossom until the 19th century (but wow what a century of literature it was!). In any event I decided to cast the net wide just in case there is something old and interesting but suspected that more contemporary was likely. Which is not to degrade contemporary. I won’t try to say who among the contemporary authors I read might be “classic” two hundred years from now but from this vantage point I’d say that the continuum of Upton Sinclair, Saul Bellow, John Updike and now Richard Russo are a great chronicle of 20th century America life and psyche. Likewise Marquez, Fuentes, and the other great Latin writers are doing for that for their culture. So hopefully Pad Thai and Chonabot have started me down a path. Amazon.com is helpful because with a few good books to start you just need to find out what other books people who read that book are reading and away you go…

Thanks all.

I’m an avid reader and was wondering if anyone had recommendations on the best Thai literature. By this I mean written by Thais that is of a high quality and translated into English. Could either be classical (ie old) or contemporary.