Trev

Thanks.

I have tried to reach out to the Thai Embassy here and they are excruciatingly difficult to get ahold of... let alone get information out of.

When a country like Canada, 72% fully vaccinated and 5% more partially, is NOT on the list it seems there are ulterior motives in these decisions.  I get that they want to include countries with higher numbers of visits to Thailand but why at the expense of countries that are clearly near the top in terms of being safely included?

Hello,

My Thai wife has been away from Thailand for almost 2 years.  She desperately wants to get back to see here family from our home here in Canada.  We've been trying to see if there are different requirements for Thais as opposed to foreigners but all our searches have been fruitless. Does anyone know if there are different requirements right now and if there will be different requirements with the changes proposed in November?

We will be thankful for any assistance whatsoever.  

I think a lot on here are missing the point. This is not literally a letter to the reds. It is intended to reach all Thais and the message is a moderate one hoping to marginalize the extremes on both sides. This message doesn't have to reach everyone but if it reaches some it can then hopefully trickle down to others.

He puts my exact thoughts into words a lot clearer and more eloquently than I could. His words carry a lot more weight as well, coming from a Thai.

im not saying that the red shirts are all innocent but A LOT are. most are there ...

They are not innocent .. in addition to stealing and holding hostage billions of dollars in private and public property they have refused uncounted orders from lawful authorities to leave the area.

There are MANY ways to protest legally and to file grievances and fight for you rights in Thailand and NONE of what the reds have done fall under peaceful or law obeying citizens.

i thought i was pretty clear in saying that they're not all innocent?

and protests, regardless of what country, tend to affect business dont they?

did the coup not affect business? was that legal? was it filing a grievance and fighting for rights in a legal manner?

The point is you are saying a lot of them are innocent when this is completely untrue. It may have been very early on but now they are ALL criminals minus small children who don't understand. And it is just very ignorant to compare this to a protest in other parts of the world because it would not be tolerated in most all civilized countries or even be described as a protest.

I think we have to distinguish between the red-shirt protesters who have gone beyond protest and those people who sympathize with the red-shirt cause in general and would even go as far to classify themselves red-shirts but haven't been a part of this "protest" in Bangkok.

...

he was in a better position than anyone on this forum to know exactly what was going on, he chose his side and he put himself in the firing line and for that many people should thank him for highlighting many things.

Brave? well considering he knows full well that he could not rely on the law to save him, or indeed ethics, then yes he was a brave man, he must have knwon that at some point the bullet was coming but he was still out there every day.

Whatever some on here may think of him he had more balls than the majority of posters on here put together. R.I.P

I agree, he had a lot of balls... and some would argue that he had too much.

When you get right down to it I would much prefer a leader who had and used more brains and decency than all of the posters on here rather than balls. My sympathy to his family for his death but even before his death I would give my sympathy to his family for the negative effect he has had on the country while alive.

I have held off posting any comment on TV as comments never seem to bring about much thought by people of opposing views. The forum is too often a place to find posts that support your view and opposing posts to rail against. This is true from both sides of the problem. I have read much on this forum and many other places as well as talking first hand with people who are affected by the situation (both Thais and foreigners). It is from all of these sources that I have formed the following opinion.

I find myself somewhere in the middle regarding this increasingly sad period in Thai history. I have a lot of sympathy for the poor working class in the country and find the deeply ingrained corruption very debilitating. I would gladly and vigorously support a movement intended to improve the lives of this large group of people. Even though there are undoubtedly many amongst the red shirt supporters who feel the same way I find I cannot support their movement due to the opportunistic manipulation by some of their leaders and the largest benefactor from the rebellion, Mr Thaksin.

Without the fringe element of ego-maniacal and self-serving leaders and their small number of fervent militant red-shirt supporters I suspect there would be a lot of support both within Thailand and internationally for a grass roots movement intended to genuinely improve the lives of the poor. Furthermore it might truly result in significant and long-lasting positive change for the country.

I have listened to interviews with some very well educated and selfless members of the red shirts who clearly want the best for the country. Why they ever aligned themselves with tyrants and why they continue to do so is something I fail to comprehend. These people need to trust in the base goodness of the majority and sever ties with the militants. I am sure if this were done then the violence would stop and real progress could be made.

Don't get me wrong, I am not supporting the government either. I find it amazing that they didn't see this coming and take steps to prevent it many months ago. They needed to reach out to the working class majority both in communication and action. They needed to make significant changes that would have made it much more difficult for the likes of Thaksin to take advantage of the disenfranchised. It's not too late as well... they will undoubtedly have a chance to do this once the protest ends. If they don't reach out in a significant way to these poor people before the next election then this endless yo-yo of protests is bound to continue.

Speaking of the next election... I agree that it is an essential step to reconciliation. However, an election must be free from the self-serving influence of Thaksin and his associates. That means that it is very important to ensure, as much as possible, that anyone wanting to run in the election is doing so to serve all the people of Thailand not just a fringe elite (from either side of the divide). If it is not then there will be considerable doubt about the democratic nature of such an election. More than anything any suspicion of an undemocratic process would cause the hole to get deeper and more difficult to climb out of.

None of this is easy... but in my opinion it all is essential.

there definitely is mention of the fact that the tourist aspect of the problem is a fraction of the domestic problem

Sure, there is always a "mention", but very little real investigative journalism concentrating on the much bigger and much more horrific story. That is the whole point.

Good point.

Can I use it?

Of course.

To be honest, I think you missed the point. I'm not denying that what you are stating actually happens... it does, and the reporting is often as you suggest. However, the article in question speaks about the industry as a whole and the effect it has on Thailand. There is mention of the tourist influence on the industry but it is a passing mention just like the passing mention of the domestic industry.

Regardless, once again not on the topic of the thread... and I said I wouldn't post on this tangent again, but I did.

A sincere article that deserves a separate thread I think, Mods..... and speaking as an lapsed CofE buddhist/atheist I recommend Father Joe for sainthood before he expires. The catholic church would do well to have such a man as Pope. Tho it's a role he'd never countenance!

Yes, a separate thread regarding this article may be a good idea as it really is irrelevant to Carradine's unfortunate demise.

These media people keep spinning the illusion that Thailand's sex industry is based on tourists, when in reality, that is only a tiny part of an industry which is much less abusive than the gigantic one that caters to Thai men.

Every city, town and village in Thailand has brothels for local men and they are far more likely to have underage sex workers who are slaves whose parents owe money to criminals. Who is reporting on that?

The tourist venues have almost none of this. The women are mostly of legal age and free, they come and go at will and often make quite a bit of money.

Most of the media and NGOs could care less about brutalized women or even children as long as they are abused by Asian men. It is well known that Asians are not normally targeted by police for having sex with underage girls. In fact, most locals consider it "normal".

The real focus of these different groups is puritanical; they want to prevent Westerners from coming here for affordable sex and use and sensationalize all of these other issues in order to obtain their goals.

Maybe the media, some religious people and feminist types consider that laudable, but it is really sad that they are willing to just ignore the suffering of the girls in the huge sex industry for Thai men in order to get rid of a few farangs who are too old to get a woman in their own country.

I reread the article and there definitely is mention of the fact that the tourist aspect of the problem is a fraction of the domestic problem... but it is all the same problem. I will drop it here but once again would like the pertinent posts to be split off into another thread.

More clever than that liberal claptrap by Greg Barret on the Huffington Post.

Just out of curiosity, what in the article do you disagree with so vehemently to call it "claptrap". I for one agreed with a lot that he wrote and the views of Father Joe as well. The only thing that might be questionable is the ease to which Barret seems to think change can happen.

Fair question.

I think I was somewhat impartial, although I did say that I would guess she did in fact get abusive to the police.  We actually spent so little time on the whole barmat theft or no theft itself that I am not sure anyone made a speculation as to her guilt or innocence of that.

Our conversation was centered on the police not playing this incident in the best manner, and how this opened Thailand up to the hysteria of the foreign press. Each one of them opined that the police should have kept her overnight for the abuse we figured she might have committed, then slapped her with a fine and either sent her on her way or put her on a plane back to Australia. They pretty much agreed that the police put their own sense of pride above the best interests of the nation.

OK, that gives me a better idea of how your Thai friends reacted and more importantly what the focus of the conversation was. Very thoughtful responses from your Thai friends too I must say. Almost a rebuttal in itself to many people tarring all Thais with the same brush. This post almost hints at what my first post was getting at. This is an unfortunate event that has spiraled out of control and to which more than one party is to blame. I still contend, if in fact that Aussie woman lost a bit of control in the face of Thai authorities, that entering any country (or even living one's life) with a bit more understanding and in a bit less ego-centric way it would not have all kicked off in the first place.

I just returned from dinner with 5 Thai friends.  I related this story, and all expressed dismay at the situation.  Not that anyone seemed to care to much for the accused woman (although they seemed to feel the punishment so far was too harsh for the accused crime) , but rather what this is doing to Thailand's reputation yet again.

None of my friends are involved in the tourist industry--they either are in manufacturing, apartment complexes, or seafood distribution.  Yet they expressed grave concern as to how this might affect tourism.

Just out of complete curiosity how did you relate the story to them? In other words was it from one angle or another (regardless of whether it was intentional)? I am curious to learn about the response of Thai's to a situation where a farang was abusive to the police and tried to flee from the police. Furthermore, I am curious to learn how Thais would feel about a farang being detained for being abusive to the chief of police at the station. I'm not saying that that is definitely what happened in this instance but there is indications at least that it might be part of the situation. If you just related someone being put away for nicking a bar mat then dismay is the obvious response. I'm not yet convinced that her case was as clear cut as that however.

It strikes me that every time something like this comes up the too many people on this forum fall firmly in one of two camps. There is the group who denounce almost anything Thai as wrong, inferior, idiotic, archaic, corrupt, etc. Then there is the group that wants to lump all westerners (except themselves if applicable) into the same rotten, hooligan infested boat.

Why is it that things have to be so black and white just because it is Thailand. It is easy to find several examples of people being foolish or behaving like oafs anywhere you look around the world. It is also easy to find plenty of examples of authorities behaving irrationally in almost every country in the world... even our beloved western countries.

Most of the time, as with this case, the issue quickly shifts from the actual incident to a debate that is centered on the divide between these two camps. The unemotional and well thought out comments made by the rational soles amongst us too often get lost in all the fodder.

Regarding this case specifically, the woman in question seems to have behaved with far too much entitlement and arrogance which puts the police in an awkward position that they find hard to deal with rationally. They do have to act in order to re-establish control. A trip to the station and some time in jail may have been unavoidable as the situation escalated. The authorities then run the risk of the situation spiraling out of control as it seems to be doing now. No one completely to blame for the course of events and everyone to blame at the same time.

Once again this scenario takes place all over the world. Rodney King and recently in Canada the case of Robert Dziekanski (google it) are extreme end results that come to mind. No matter whether one is in their home country or abroad the best advice is to approach any situation regarding authorities with a bit of humility, calm and caution. This is even more compounded when traveling to a country which has laws and customs very different than ones own. Not allowing opportunity for the situation to escalate is the best approach to take.

Why is there so little focus on the way Thaksin achieved political success and what kind of lasting influence that has on the rural poor and uneducated? Most dictators know where their power lies and it is stroking this base without empowering them too much which is usually the strategy used to remain in control, all the while brainwashing the base into blind support. It seems to me that there are only three ways to deal with such an unfortunate situation; war (if the leader tries to expand beyond his borders), revolution or a coup.

After tortuously reading 8 pages of this thread I find it bemusing that so many people are so quick to generalise about an entire nation when agreement on one single issue cannot be reached by a small section of the TV community. Certainly the disagreement on this thread and the breadth of experience with such a phrase as kii nok support the notion that there are many ways to interpret it's meaning or intent (not to mention the possibility of differing phrases altogether). Furthermore, the breadth of experience TV members have had with Thai nationals indicates that Thais are as complex and varied as we ourselves are.

With regard to the phrase itself, I am curious about what kind of response a similar OP (someone being called stingy or tight) on a forum about living in any of our western countries would have received. My guess is that the range of responses would have been quite similar. I have used the terms stingy or tight in many different ways myself and suspect the same can be said for many of you. If we are capable of using such a word in many different ways ranging from insult to playful banter then who are any of us to suggest that Thais don't have the same capabilities.

There is no way to fully understand the intent of what is said without fully understanding the language, the relationships of the people involved, the history of the people involved and the circumstances of the conversation. Even then, regardless of language and culture, there is often misunderstanding. None of us are in the position to answer the OP's question. All we can do is give our own experiences... which, given the responses on this thread, indicate that there are plenty of possible answers.

So, to the OP, I would say that there are plenty of legitimate ways to interpret what is happening in you circumstances but they all come from everyone elses own points of reference. You have to do what ever you can to gain as much understanding as possible. Learn the language, speak to your wife about the situation, speak to your in-laws about the situation with a translator if necessary. Even taking into consideration all the experiences others have had is a way to strengthen your understanding, so this thread shows you are interested in doing so, just make sure not to think anyone here has the answer for your own specific problem. Live from a position of power by being as knowledgeable and informed as you can be. Only you have lived the moment and only you can determine the reality of the moment for YOU. Even then you have no guarantees to be problem free but you will be much better prepared to deal with any problem that arises.

After working in Thailand for five years it is possible that I will be moving back to Canada with my Thai wife. She has been to Canada several times before and most recently on a 6 month visa for a spouse. I am currently in the process of sorting out residency for her and find the assistance provided via FAQ and e-mail very poor. I simply have a few questions that I would like answered and have scoured the website and sent e-mails to various officials, both to no avail. If anyone has gone through this process it would be great to have someone to bounce questions off of.

At the moment the questions I can think of are regarding the fact that I will be leaving my current employment and haven't found a new job yet. Will that have an effect on the process given that it is too early yet to find a job in Canada in my field? If so, is it better to wait until I find a job? Or is that what a co-signer would be used for? If that is what a co-signer is used for how do I get a co-signer who is in Canada while I am in Thailand? Who qualifies as a co-signer?

I guess that's quite a lot of questions actually. Hopefully someone has gone through this and has some answers for me or knows where I can go to find the answers.

Thanks in advance.

The Simpsons and Seinfeld for me. Cheers is a close runner-up.

A couple that haven't been mentioned;

The Trailer Park Boys

Takes a certain sense of humour to appreciate it but it's worth a look. Probably best to watch it from the beginning as it is largely character driven and understanding and "knowing" the characters makes it much better.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Based loosely on the real life of Larry David, one of the creators of Seinfeld. Very clever.

Are you suggesting that EFL teachers should have to take Thai language tests before they can start teaching?

Personelly, i hope to go from being able to speak a little thai,to a lot by this time next year.

Not suggesting that at all. Just supporting the idea that understanding the student's first language helps.

Actually paulsmithson,if your trying to teach someone a new language your not supposed to use their own native language to communicate with them.

My old man pointed this out to me.I am sure many of the teachers here aren't supposed to speak any Thai to the kids,or so i have heard anyway...?

Yes, that is a prevailing theory and may well be correct (I have my doubts). However, getting started in reality is a different story.

Also, and more importantly, having an understanding of the student's first language certainly helps one to understand why they make the mistakes they do and how to help them to correct the mistakes. This is something I have come to realise in my 4 years teaching here in Thailand. When you understand some of their language you can more effectively help them bridge the gap to their second language.

This is why I am a proponent of helping those serious and dedicated people who are doing this job for the right reasons of whom there are many. They are here on the ground making a real effort for the one intangible reward in teaching, helping the students. They have developed a working relationship with Thais and Thai language and culture. They are an asset to the education community in Thailand. Helping these people to reach the necessary standards of the profession of teaching or be acknowledged for already reaching said standards will benefit everyone.

Having the standards is also important as it helps to weed out all the people who would like to do the job for all the wrong reasons.

Trev, I hear what you are saying but English speakers are at an advantage.

As far as a baby learning to speak compared to a teenager, maybe the unqualified should only be teaching, or aiding, the young ones.

Sure, and as I've stated previously the degree thing is a means of increasing the odds.

As far as the baby vs teenager goes, I would suspect that the difference pops up much sooner than in the teens. Once a first language is in place the structure of the second language starts to become quite important.

Why hasn't anybody pointed out that having a degree should only be necessary to non-speaking English countries, and that degree be in English. I would like to think that native English speakers should competent enough to pass on English words to children. It should be the job of the schools to decide who they don't want for what ever reason.

Sorry, I strongly disagree with this... especially in that many native English speakers are not that good at English and teaching English is more than 'passing on words'.

In what way do you disagree?

Is it the Queen's English that you expect all Native English speakers to speak?

Or only the Home Counties?

My 3 yr old speaks English and all I have ever done is speak to her, never taught her, and she is here in Bangkok.

I'm not British so expecting the Queen's English to be what all native English speakers speak is not an issue. In fact, just because someone comes from Britain, the home of the Queen's English, doesn't give them a strangle hold on speaking the language well, let alone understanding it in a structured way.

I was in no way implying that you personally are not that good at English, I would have no way of knowing that and can only presume that you are indeed good at the language. My point is that there are a lot of people who are not good at English even though they are native English speakers and for some reason some of these people feel that it is their God given right to have the opportunity to teach the language just because they are native speakers.

Finally, there is a huge difference between a child learning English from day one as compared to a teenager learning it as a second language. It is in the latter situation where passing on English words is simply not enough.

Why hasn't anybody pointed out that having a degree should only be necessary to non-speaking English countries, and that degree be in English. I would like to think that native English speakers should competent enough to pass on English words to children. It should be the job of the schools to decide who they don't want for what ever reason.

Sorry, I strongly disagree with this... especially in that many native English speakers are not that good at English and teaching English is more than 'passing on words'.

I believe that a degree is the requirement to teach English, but does this apply to teaching other subjects?

This is not an uncommon criterion for teachers of all subjects, around the world.

I the UK many teachers do not have degrees

Ah - if only you knew. ALL teachers in the UK MUST have a degree in teaching - they either attend a teachers training college where they gain not only their degree but also vast experience in teaching technigues or must do a further 2 years doing a teachers degree once they have finished a normal degree at a university.

My ex spent 5 years at university / college to gain her teachers quilifications - not the 10 weeks it takes with TEFL

Why would anyone not allow the children of this country the same rights to quality education that they would want for their own children in other countries, or that we ourselves enjoyed?

I have met teachers working in schools who are TEFL trained, whose second or sometimes third language is English and I have not been able to understand what they were saying when speaking to me in English, and I am naive English born.

Yes the quality of teaching needs to be improved and in line with this the level of pay - Fully qualified teachers will only be able to get the level of salary they rightly deserve when there is a shortage of teachers available - and this will only be highlighted when they crack down on poorly trained, bad english speaking stop gaps.

The future of a Nation rests in its children and this generation has a duty to the next to ensure it gets the best possible eduction from the best trained people.

A quote to remember - we do not own the Earth, we only borrow it from future Generations

Phuketdiver

Excellent post! The same goes for Canada and New Zealand. I know this to be the case as I was trained in Canada and began my teaching career there before spending 5 years teaching in NZ.

I think a big issue here is the disregard as teaching as a profession. As was previously mentioned you would not go to other professionals such as doctors, lawyers and accountants if they had no training in a given field so why is it seen to be acceptable to have educators who have not been trained as teachers. I have a BA degree as well as a BEd degree as do all the teachers I teach with and have taught with in the past (in one form or another depending on where they come from). We have been trained not only in our specific subject area but also in the specific skill of teaching. I do not consider myself a mathematician, even though that is my specialist subject, I consider myself a teacher who happens to teach mathematics.

That being said, I completely accept that there are plenty of unqualified individuals who are doing a fine job teaching English here in Thailand. Unfortunately, an institution and country have a much better chance of getting such quality people if they have strict requirements for employment. Requiring a teacher to have degree is by no means a guarantee to getting a good teacher, but it is an effective method of increasing the odds (especially if an education degree is also required) and is used in most developed countries, so why not here.

Perhaps a solution that might be feasible is offering foreign unqualified teachers in Thailand an opportunity to get some sort of qualification by combining credit for past experience (awarded on merit, not simply to anyone who has filled a seat at the front of a class) with some sort of training. It would serve three purposes. Dedicated and effective teachers will be rewarded and encouraged to stay in the system, undesirables will likely fail or even more likely not want to make the effort and Thailand will be improving its quality of education without sacrificing an unworkable amount of teachers.

It's just a thought that I think is very do-able. Any teacher worth his/her salt is going to be up for the opportunity. Let's face it, even teachers who are properly trained and have a lot of experience need and get regular professional development. This would be just another form of professional development where everybody wins.

Not sure if this one has been mentioned but it is my favourite and one that I find very useful when someone is making excuses,

Ram mai di tôht pie tôht glong - A bad dancer blames the flute and the drum.