orish

I’m writing simply to check at this stage what my options are with respect to my attempts to claim a refund from Rangsit University.

I want to ask for a refund on the basis of misrepresentation: I was quoted a certain price (130,000 baht less 30% discount) for a Thesis-based International Masters Program. It turns out that they made a mistake and registered me for the regular Masters Program. I compromised on this in our discussions. But then it also turns out that the discount was only 30% for "only certain parts of the program" not the total price, and they omitted to inform me about other course requirements I had to complete (and pay for) in order to obtain my degree. I never received any formal confirmation of the agreement, nor of the university’s regulations, nor anything in writing that set out the details of the programs and the costs.

I wasn't really happy with the quality of the courses anyway (haphazard, low standards and sometimes irrelevant or outdated content) and the lack of access to research databases... but I was prepared to complete the requirements and move on (provided I wouldn't have to pay any more than was originally agreed). But I’ve made no progress. The university offered me the opportunity to apply for financial assistance to complete my degree but then, after two months of deliberation, replied glibly that I could pay off the full amount over an extended period of time.

And now they are ignoring my request for a refund, despite several emails, phone calls and faxes.

What do you suggest I do next? Is there such a thing as a Small Claims Court in Thailand? Is it worth initiating a lawsuit against the university and, if so, what are the costs and are they recoverable?

I am the author of Read Thai in a Day. It's a downloadable interactive e-course. It does sound a little far-fetched, doesn't it? Nevertheless, it only requires a few hours to master the Thai alphabet and the tone system if you use the visual-thinking and memory-association approach upon which the method is based. (As in "Men in Black 2", the brain does require time to "reboot" as it were. You also do need to allow time for the information to "percolate" in your brain, so the recommended method is to complete the course over two readings at least a week apart, and refresh it all a month later.) Google it for more details.

I am plugging my system because (as most Thai teachers and experienced learners will tell you) I realized that in order to learn Thai quickly and effectively, it is absolutely vital to be able to read Thai from the beginning. Walen school is right in putting emphasis on this, even though they might be going about it in the wrong way.

My advice to anybody wishing to learn Thai is to learn to read first - buy my system - and then sign up with a school or a teacher who will jump straight into Thai reading and listening. AUA follows an immersion approach, but I don't think it's effective on its own. Their idea is to put you in a class which is just beyond your level of comprehension, so that your mind "stretches" into the language, as it were. This is how children acquire a language. But we are no longer children and our brains function in different ways. (I'm currently doing Masters/Doctoral research on this issue, so I'm still trying to find out for sure...)

Nevertheless, AUA is dirt cheap and quite entertaining. If you choose them, my advice is to attend a class exactly at your level of understanding, so that you can simply consolidate your "ear" and really enjoy the classes - otherwise it becomes really very tiring. I know. I've done it!

You need to supplement your learning with reading and listening, again at your level of comprehension. Language learning should never be a struggle. There's enough to contend with already

There is an excellent thread about developing your reading skills on this site. Go look it up.

As for speaking, this is purely a muscle skill, which you have to acquire through speech training - much like learning to dance, doing yoga or karate or playing a sport. You must practice enunciating clearly with the correct tones. Not because tones actually matter all that much (surprise!) but because it is difficult for a Thai person to understand you if you mash up the words (like Thai people speaking English).

Imagine someone asking you: "How many kellógrums is that?" A little change in emphasis and we cannot even understand our own language!

At the end of the day, you should choose a school or teacher who will work through reading texts with you, speak to you lots and lots (but just at your level of understanding) and help you to understand how and why things are said/written the way they are. It is up to you to practice speaking. Pimsleur is good for this in the beginning stages. And train yourself by reading aloud every day in an exaggerated manner. Especially with key phrases and patterns such as:

ช่วยเปิดประตูให้หน่อยครับ (chuay pbeut pradtoo hai noi krab, or "please would you open the door for me")

Repeat these kinds of patterns many many times until they become muscle reflexes. This you can do in your own time.

Go to school already able to read Thai (without necessarily being able to understand but having picked up some words and phrases from street signs and shop notices) and having at least worked through the Pimsleur course, say, so that you are starting to speak clearly after a fashion.

Then you will find that your 200 hours and 30,000-odd baht will not be wasted and you will achieve a remarkable proficiency in Thai within a relatively short time.

OK so maybe not taiko (and no shamisen) but come along to khaosan, outside police station, every sunday night (9pm onwards) - you can listen to Kenji's djembe drum group (with Luis and Eddie) playing hot African rhythms. Drum classes held every Friday 7.30-9.00pm at rumPUREE (Amarin Plaza, Chidlom).

Bring your taiko to the drum circle or Kenji can probably give you private lessons. Maybe he can help you find a shamisen teacher too.

The website is www.rumpuree.com. They also do salsa and world dance.

If you listen very carefully, you can hear the subtle distinction between a final "d" or "ch" or "t".

That's interesting. As far as I am aware, there is no such difference in terms of sound, the difference is in spelling only. One possible exception is English loan words where educated Thais might sound out the final - but I've never heard this in "original" Thai words.

Yes, you are probably right. It is very difficult to hear the difference, if at all. Those people who can tell the difference can probably pick up a difference in the quality of the sound. In English, it isn't possible to tell between "read" and "red" except from the context. But, there is a very subtle difference between "so" and "sow" that a native speaker can hear.

Nevertheless, you can probably hear the difference in the following pairs of words:

พัด พัก

ตด ตก

After my Read Thai in a Weekend workshop, I provide the following tips on how to consolidate what you have learnt and take it to the next level:

1. Start by becoming consciously aware of street signs, place names and shop notices. Read them! Try to work out the correct tone also and understand why they are the way they are. You will nearly always see a transliteration, but beware: a lot of them are wrong! Names (like พระโขนง) might be a bit tricky because they tend to use the more obscure letters and rules. [Edited.]
   
2. After about a week to allow the information to “settle” in your mind, start working through the Read Thai in a Day ebook again:
   
   • First read the introductory section, and refresh your memory on the basic consonants.
     
   • Start working through the reading exercises in the main section – just do one page (one letter, maximum 15 words) a day. It only takes about 5 minutes. Make it part of your daily routine with coffee or something. Understand how each word is pronounced thoroughly, and review the visual story association while you’re at it.
     
   • When there is a note about tones that you don’t understand, go and review the relevant page(s) in the tone section.
     

[*]Go through the introductory online course on www.its4thai.com. It's free. (Switch on Thai script, not phonetics!!!)

[*]Get the book Everyday Thai for Beginners by Wiworn Kesavatana-Dohrs (from Bookazine/Amazon). No phonetics here either. Find a Thai teacher who will follow this program and not theirs, on a one-to-one basis.

[*]Get the book Instant Thai by Stuart Robson & Prateep Changchit (Kinokuniya).

[*]Carry the SE-ED Modern English-Thai Dictionary Pocket Edition around with you. It’s in Thai script only!

[*]It helps also to listen to some Thai podcasts. So far, I’ve only found: www.learn-thai-podcast.com. The audio is free, but if you pay $25 you can download all the videos, which are transcripts and explained in a detailed slowed-down manner. (Tip: cancel your subscription after everything has been downloaded.)

[*]Start reading. Children’s books are a little bit complicated and flowery in the writing style, but there’s a lot that you can still understand. Start with the bilingual Winnie the Pooh First Reader series (หนังสือสองภาษา) and the Noddy series, either obtainable from SE-ED or Kinokuniya or contact [email protected]. After that, it’s probably a good idea to find original Thai reading material. The simpler texts can be found in the pulp fiction novels from 7-11 (the 12 baht books) or autobiographies. This is where having a private Thai teacher, who is very patient, helps. Read the text aloud and ask for explanations on why things are the way they are.

[*]Read aloud! It may seem silly, but you will develop stronger and more agile face & tongue muscles that will make your diction that much clearer. Thai people will start to understand you! Don’t forget to exaggerate the tones: emphatic for falling, question for rising, skeptical for high/rising.

[*]Use either www.thai2english.com (they have a downloadable dictionary for $40) or www.thai-language.com/dict. Typing the Thai words into the dictionary (using the Thai keyboard) will also help to make you more consciously aware of the spelling over time.

[*]Develop a strength and stamina for reading by persevering. At first, it will be a struggle. It will be slow and frustrating. Like first learning to play the piano or guitar. [Edited.]

Here are some other books that are useful for intermediate-level reading:

• The translations of the Roald Dahl books, The Witches, Esio Trot, Mathilda, etc., The Little Prince by Saint Exupery or Madame Doubtfire by Anne Fine. The Harry Potter series also uses fairly simple language, or you might want to brave The Lord of the Rings, The Count of Monte Cristo, The Wind in the Willows (Thai title: การผจญภัย & มิตรภาพวีรบุรุษสัตว์ทั้งสี่). There are also translations of the Agatha Christie mysteries and the Sherlock Holmes series. Most of these books can be obtained from Kinokuniya. The Thai version of Wind in the Willows is published by www.goodonebooks.com. Monte Cristo by Mild Publishing (02 270 0928). And TWP publishes a "Bright Kids" series of classic children's tales and stories with a science bent. Hard to find though...
  How you read these is to have the English language version of the same book and read the two side by side. Awkward, yes, but it works. What I do is use a multi-coloured pen: I underline the more obscure words in red, the ones that I'm sort of familiar with but have forgotten in blue, and those that I know but are kind of important in black.
  
• For a fun, but fairly advanced (read "poetic") use of Thai language, try The Shark That Lost His Teeth (ปลาฉลามฟันหลอ) published by Post Books (Bangkok Post). Buy the bilingual version, English on one page, Thai on the other...
  
• Another great book is A Child of the Northeast by Kampoon Boontawee. A special English translation has been published. The original Thai book is ลูกอิสาน.
  
• There are of course plenty of business and self-help books that use a fairly straight-forward writing style, many of which have been translated into Thai: Anthony Robbins (Unlimited Power, etc.), Malcolm Gladwell (Tipping Point), etc. etc. So pick your favorite topic, get the original and the Thai translation and work through the two books, side by side.
  
• The SET (Stock Exchange of Thailand) publishes a series of bilingual children's books to teach basic concepts of finance and investment, such as 1,000 Dolls. You can buy them from the SET bookshop (next to Queen Sirikit Exhibition Center).
  
• Finally, there are the myriad of Thai newspapers and magazines, aimed at all levels of readership. The headlines are usually difficult to read at first coz they are often printed in a more modern font. But all the major newspapers are online anyway. I prefer that, because I can copy and paste into Word, change the font to my liking, increase the size, and even use software or online dictionaries. Look at www.newspapers24.com/thai-newspapers or perhaps more helpfully: www.learningthai.com/newspaper.
  There's also a useful book (aimed at Thais learning English) called You Can Read The Bangkok Post by Terry Fredrickson. It works the other way round also: there are sufficient paired translations of passages from the newspaper for you to develop an understanding of newspaper-styleThai language.
  

* Except for the letters ล ร ญ which change to an "n" at the end of a syllable, all other consonants are the same. 60 Minutes makes the mistake of teaching students the transliterated endings (e.g. where ด is either "d" or "t". In reality, Thais simply do not sound the final consonant of a syllable, unless it has a continuous sound like "n" or "m". They form the letter in their mouths, but do not express the sound as we do in English. We expel a little air to enunciate the final consonant clearly. That's why a final "d" or "ch" or even "s" sounds almost like an English "t" - but it isn't.

I'm sorry, but you are talking (or typing) rubbish. First you say Thais simply do not sound the final consonant of a syllable. Then

That's why a final "d" or "ch" or even "s" sounds almost like an English "t" So do they sound it or not, you are contradicting yourself.

This is precisely why I tell people to avoid learning Thai using transliteration. It creates a great deal of confusion and one learns an incorrect form of Thai that is impossible to fix.

There is no written way to represent the fact that Thais do not enunciate the final "stop" consonants. In many languages like English or German, the final consonant is expressed quite clearly by expelling a short powerful burst of air. If you pay attention, you can hear it quite clearly. "Pack" has an explosive "kuh" at the end. "Bat" has an explosive "tuh".

But in Thai, you only shape your mouth and teeth and tongue into the correct position; you do not expel any air. Try say "bad" without actually enunciating the "d". This is pretty close to the sound for "eight" in Thai (so long as you don't vocalize the "b").

Yes, it does sound contradictory to say that a final "d" is like a "t". This is how it is transliterated and - you are right - it doesn't really sound like a "t" at all. If you listen very carefully, you can hear the subtle distinction between a final "d" or "ch" or "t".

I spend some time belaboring this point in the workshop. Think of "shaken but not stirred": you form the letter in your mouth as if you are about to say it, but you don't make any further sound and you don't expel any air.

As for saying that you can learn to read Thai in a day just be getting a good book on the Thai writing system, well everybody I've spoken to so far have told me that it's incredibly complicated and, even after spending several months at a class to learn reading and writing, they still can't do it except for the more basic words. As for the tones, they don't even bother.

What I've done is to simplify the entire system - you only learn what you need to know in order to read accurately. It isn't necessary to know whether a vowel is long or short - it's pretty obvious from the subliminal cues I've embedded in the course. And instead of complicated classes and tone tables, I've used a story-based mnemonic system based on boys, girls and ladyboys.

Essentially, it is a mnemonic system for helping you to remember the letters and the tone system in one go, without having to memorize an arbitrary system of rules. Many letters are also initially quite confusing, so it will take a great deal of boring and repetitive reading drills to learn to recognize them all and distinguish between those that are similar.

It can be done of course, but why do it the hard way when I've done all the work for you already?

It only takes a few hours to learn the system, but the bulk of the course is to help consolidate the ability to read actual words. As in any language, but perhaps more so in Thai, it does help to know the meaning of the word in order to be able to read it quickly. By building up a vocabulary of basic words - again using a visual association method - the course makes it that much easier to be able to read Thai in the real world.

I think I make it quite clear in my advertising that you will not necessarily be able to understand what you are reading. I don't pretend to teach Thai, nor do I promise to teach how to write Thai either. It's only a start. A very important start. One learns Thai more effectively through reading and I strongly recommend a book by Wiworn Kesavatana-Dohrs entitled Everyday Thai for Beginners as well as podcasts (e.g. www.learn-thai-podcast.com) or introductory websites such as www.its4thai.com. Just make an effort to look at the Thai script, not the transliteration.

Learning to write is a very advanced skill that should be left until much later. Writing comes with reading: by being able to recognize the spelling of different words. You shouldn't try to write longhand. Learn to touch-type on the keyboard instead, and check your spelling with the thailanguage.com dictionary or thai2english.com.

Of course 400 words isn't going to be sufficient to learn the language. I really am amazed at some of the responses I get from people. Many don't believe that one can learn to read in only one day and so think I'm a charlatan. And then there are others who except to be able to speak, understand and write Thai as a result of the course when I clearly make no claim.

However, if you are at least able to sound out Thai words accurately then you will find it remarkably easy to pick up Thai "on the go". If you can't read then you are like a blind person: Thai words on the street will just consist of meaningless squiggles. Indeed, there is so much you can learn from your environment, simply by paying attention to street signs and shop notices.

And then you will find that learning Thai using a more formal method will be relatively easy and logical.

Before pooh-poohing a new approach, why not try it out? You can pick up a lot from the demo version and if you buy an access code then you can try it for a month before requesting a full refund. I've put my money where my mouth is: if it doesn't work for you then all you will lose is a few hours of your time.

And then you can take the money and put it towards a regular Thai language school. Many schools claim to teach you to read and write Thai in around 200 hours for a cost of 25,000-30,000 baht. Keep in mind that this isn't the only cost: add in the travel costs, the drinks & meals, and the time out of your life.

Happy reading.

I have a boy and girl, 10 + 13, both foreigners. I used to think that Bangkok was a relatively safe city for children. My kids go to the weekend market on their own, or they visit MBK, Discovery Centre and other shopping centres. Most of the time, they stick to the skytrain, sometimes they take a bus - I don't let them take taxis alone.

However, some of my friends are telling me that Thailand is an exceptionally dangerous place for children alone. One European baby was stolen at Victory Monument out of his pram and found two years later, with its arm amputated, used by a gang for begging in the streets.

I'm told that other children are abducted, smuggled to Burma, forced into sexual slavery, used and abused then killed and quietly buried.

These stories never hit the English papers, and it seems that the government and international organizations are powerless to do anything about it.

Seems to me a bit far-fetched. We have similar bogey-man stories of paeodophiles living in England and most middle and upper class parents there constantly ferry their kids to and fro in their cars for fear of letting them out of their site.

The result in the UK, according to a police inspector, is that the incidence of traffic-related accidents and deaths amongst children has risen by 500% since the 70's; while sexual abuse by strangers has decreased very slightly.

In the USA, figures show that teenagers have much less ability to assess risk than teenagers 30 years ago.

Am I getting the same mythological hogwash in Thailand, or are children under real threat here after all?

Long-standing residents tell me that there are plenty of stories about abductions and killings in the Thai papers, but that they simply do not appear in the English press.

Does anyone know what the true state of affairs is, and could you advise me and other families about how much freedom one can afford one's children, and at what age?

Concerned parent.

I agree, great site. I've been looking for the past month or so and found some good possibilities.

Two problems - the vacancies aren't always current, so I phone up or go visit the apartment block, only to find that the place has been rented weeks previously. How about a field stating when the ad was last updated, and a quick and easy way for a landlord to mark when the room has been taken (and again unmarking it when it becomes free again) and/or a date when it will become available?

The other oversight is that I am also considering a townhouse, and these aren't advertised at all.

Great site. Please advertise it to landlords currently advertising in the local classified magazines (with Thai/English translation service??)

Wishing you every success, H.

I'm struggling to undertand the OP's objections.  He's in a park where there are signs saying 2000 baht for smoking, and he's complaining when the police come to enforce that law? He should be jumping up and down for getting away with only half the fine, irrespective of whether it went into the cop's back pocket or the public coffers.

No good blaming someone else for getting fined for breaking a law when, by your own admission, there were signs about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the (occasional) useful suggestions. One of the points I made is that the signs were small or obscure. I was back at Chatuchak on the weekend and I made a point of looking for any signs stating that smoking in the park was illegal.

Now that I was looking for them, I did see them. But they were tiny! As you come into the park from the MRT or BTS entrance, there are little circular signs and a tiny statement warning of a 2,000 baht fine. But coming in from the Chatuchak side, the sign was on the gate - which was obscured by a peddlar selling drinks! There is also only one No Smoking sign on the path - and not on the path we were walking on.

My point was that, if something like this is going to be made illegal, then make it obvious - especially when it is unexpected. Prohibiting smoking in the outdoors doesn't make sense. Banning spitting also doesn't make sense. Is it a health hazard, does it make a mess like dogshit, or is it simply an impolite thing to do? And is it true that you get fined for chewing gum in Singapore? I certainly didn't see any signs anywhere that prohibited this last time I was there.

Perhaps if my friend had stood her ground and made a fuss, she might have got off with a warning.

But this type of experience can only tarnish Thailand as a tourist destination. A great pity.

The best course so far is a rapid program entitled Cracking Thai Fundamentals conducted by Stu Raj. It's a four week course (3 hours per session) and costs 11,000 baht. That may sound more expensive than traditional Thai courses, but you will save a lot of time and effort and will learn more Thai than taking a six month traditional course.

I've done the course myself and it's absolutely brilliant. You learn how to remember the basic building blocks in Thai using body movements and memory techniques.

You will also learn how to read Thai - it's actually quite easy - and how to pronounce the words correctly. After about two hours over two weeks, I learnt not only the consonants, but also most of the vowels, which class each consonant belonged to and whether the sound is aspirated or not. I have friends who have spent months trying to learn Thai who don't know any of this.

Here is the vision taken directly from the manual:

It is now 3 months from the time that I finished Stu’s Cracking Thai Fundamentals Workshop. 

I am reading Thai newspapers, menus and magazines every day. Even though I don’t understand all the words, I am pronouncing the words with about an 85% level of accuracy. 

I can look up new words that I hear and see in my dictionary that never leaves my side in less than 20 seconds.

I’m learning a minimum of 15 new words and 1 idiom per day. 

I watch Thai television programmes or listen to Thai radio for at least 1 hour per day.

Whenever I hear a new sound or a new word, I can visualize where it’s being produced from in the mouth and imitate it.

I regularly visit Thai websites, bulletin boards and chat-rooms and am able to type in Thai so that I can communicate over the internet.

Not only will you learn stuff that most Thais don't even know about (and that includes the teachers), you will get an insight into Thai culture that most Farang never achieve. Stu organizes social get-togethers and day-trips (for practicing your newly acquired Thai skills) and he is starting a follow-on workshop for those who have already attended the first course.

There's usually a course starting every month. The next one starts on Monday 1 August (2005) at English Solutions on Sukhumvit Soi 1. If you live near Baan Chaopraya on the other side of the river (close to Peninsular Hotel), there will be an evening course (Wednesdays) and a Saturday morning course starting soon.

His contact details are:

[email protected]

Tel. 01-9888-105

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

I was with a friend at Chatuchak market the other day. On the way back to the skytrain, we took a shortcut through the park where she lit up a cigarette. A policeman called her over and pointed out to her that it was illegal to smoke in the park. She was obliged to pay 1,000 baht (without receiving a receipt in return).

We were both taken aback at this. Yes, there was a road sign (on another path) showing a crossed-out cigarette to denote no smoking. We also did subsequently notice a very small sign at the entrance to the park (where the metro comes out) that stated there was a 2,000 baht fine for smoking. So I suppose we should have known.

I don't think there were any signs where you enter the park on the market side, but the signs at the main entrance were already so small that we could have easily missed them. Next time I go to the market, I will have a closer look.

There were several things that disturbed me about this incident.

Firstly, the fact that smoking is banned in an open-air space. I personally dislike cigarette smoke intensely, but I don't see how smoking in the park is going to be at all discernible, especially when the air is already choking with car, bus, truck and tuk tuk fumes. It might make a bit more sense to fine people for dropping stubs on the ground. And it makes sense to ban smoking on trains, at the stations underground (perhaps not so much on the skytrain stations) or other indoor public spaces. But outdoors!?

Secondly, the fact that the signs were fairly obscure. If it is to be deemed illegal to smoke or drink or walk on the grass or whatever, in a place where one would not expect it, then I would suppose that huge signs would be put up to draw one's attention to the fact.

Finally, the fact that the policeman didn't issue a receipt or provide any information about an appeals process or a way to query the fine. Obviously the money went straight into his and his cronies' pockets.

Who would one contact to complain about this or at least have some influence in reducing this kind of activity? My friend was quite shaken by the experience, almost expecting to have to fill in forms, go to the police station and register her passport, etc. etc. Which is why she gladly gave the policeman the 1,000 baht, without making any fuss.

Or is this the price we have to pay for visiting or living in Thailand?

I'm planning on moving to Thailand from the UK with my family. I'm currently in Australia with my children and my wife will join me in from the UK in Thailand. We are all British citizens.

I'll be working, either as an independent freelancer or with a registered Thai company. So I presume I would need the usual business visa and work permit.

1. If I work as an independent (providing corporate training, writing articles, etc.) then is there a different type of work permit I could apply for - as I won't necessarily be setting up a local company or be employed? Would I need a work permit? I do have a company registered in the UK. So the idea would be either to invoice companies as a freelancer or via my UK company. (I assume that they will therefore simply deduct a 'witholding tax'.)

2. If I'm employed, but don't receive a salary (the idea is to share the revenue I generate) then do I simply need a standard work permit - or do I also need to demonstrate some kind of ability to cover my living expenses?

What about my wife and children? As we intend to live here for 2-3 years, what kind of visas will they require, assuming my wife doesn't work? And are there such things as 'family' visas or 'child'/'student' visas?

Even the Thai consulate visa section doesn't seem to be able to tell me what we need!

Can anyone advise please?

Many thanks,

Gary