Plastic Brontosaurus

PB, it is ignorance like yours that magnifies the global problems.

Are all of these ok by your thinking?

Have you heard the saying 'every little bit helps"

Plastic bags are one single problem in a huge problem of garbage in general.

Plastic bags is one thing everybody that cared just a little bit, could do something about today and for the rest of their days. Refuse a bag, you do not need a bag to carry everything home. You do not need 2 bags when they will all fit in one etc.

This is something you can do something about right now. All the other problems also need addressing and they do, this is just one of them.

You do not need a plastic bag to carry your water bottle out of 7/11. You do need the plastic bottle to carry the water out.

If you cannot see that and any advantage of it, then you simply are one of the ignorant millions that are destroying the planet.

I used to work in some pristine environments, more than you would have ever seen. These areas are now being ruined some 15/20 years on because of the 100 fold increase in rubbish and convenient packaging.

I was in one such environment over xmas and the difference was staggering.

Keep your head in the sand if you want and plead ignorance, but good people will not stop caring, unlike yourself and give up. You are just weak no doubt.

This is exactly what I mean. There's always a few photos out there that are RARE OCCURRENCES of events and that are then posted of evidence of a major problem.

How many of such "plastic wrapped birds" has anyone on this forum actually seen? I'm pretty sure it's zero. On the same basis as forbidding plastic bags, you should argue that arrows (the ones shot from bows) should be forbidden because there's a series of photos out there with birds with arrows through their neck. Just google (on Google Images) "bird with plastic bag" and "bird with arrow". The former will yield the photos posted above plus a few more - it's not like there's heaps of photos out there because it hardly ever happens that birds are caught in bags. The latter search will yield about the same number of birds with arrows in them.

The whole argument of reducing plastic bags or banning them remains a load of <deleted> IMHO. It's not about every little bit helps - because they would be replaced with "reusable" woven polyester bags, which are much heavier and need a lot more energy to produce, and are also wasted albeit after a few more uses. So it would just be shifting the burden another way, until some little old lady in Hampshire finds one of these "reusable" bags in her chicken coop and starts the next round of "let's ban these too". All replacement bags, whether woven polyester, or paper, or cotton etc. require much more energy to produce and similar levels of wastage occur during production and often disposal.

The problem with plastic bags is that they are made of an artificial material and thus people make a big fuss because artificial materials should be avoided at all cost, and if a bit of it ends up in the environment it is a major issue.

The argument about the pristine environments - yes there are areas (in the central Pacific for one) which see a lot of trash wash up on the beaches because they are in a vortex area of ocean currents. There will be a few plastic bags among the trash, but the far majority of it consists of harder and more durable plastics such as pallet covers, polyester chips, PET bottles, etc. This is not a reason to argue that plastic bags are evil. The problem is that all kinds of trash are washed out to sea in rivers, and thrown from ships. Plastic shopping bags are just a very small part of them.

I've asked for concrete examples etc. but nobody gives them. Only reproductions of standard "sample" pictures showcasing the supposed evil of plastic bags. Nobody has come up with anything convincing IMHO.

Many people want to be mainstream and politically correct, and thus follow the prevailing opinion without questioning it (simply because a few pictures exist of birds wrapped in plastic, does not mean there is a global issue with plastic shopping bags - there may be a problem with trash in general but that is a very different issue that is conveniently being bundled into the shopping bag argument it seems).

Many others don't agree but keep silent because they are fearful of opposing the mainstream opinion, which in this case is that plastic bags are evil but nobody really knows why - unless you're basing an opinion on a few pictures and don't care about what is reasonable, or any hard facts or stats.

I repeat: show me the actual facts how PLASTIC SHOPPING BAGS are destroying the environment (and I don't buy a few sensationalist pictures or movies as being proof of that). Waste in general may have a major impact on the environment globally, but PLASTIC SHOPPING BAGS are INERT LIKE GLASS and don't leak chemicals or similar. Some marine animals may eat a few and of course that upsets some people, but I haven't seen any proof that PLASTIC SHOPPING BAGS threaten populations of animals anywhere in the world, or actually pollute the environment in a serious way (apart from annoying a few little old ladies in Hampshire when they blow across their lawn).

My argument remains: there's nothing wrong with plastic shopping bags.

That's not to say there's nothing wrong with global waste. There are serious problems in some areas caused by waste. This is usually caused by leakage of chemicals, petroleum products, medical waste products, radioactivity and similar from areas where waste is dumped. This is a serious issue. But don't confuse that with the issue of plastic shopping bags - because that really is not an issue.

If you still believe plastic bags are a problem, invent a solution. Don't just sit there and try to reduce usage which is non-constructive. Its the same as saying petroleum products cause global warming so let's drive less. <deleted>. Invent a solution that replaces the original "evil" solution with something that does the same, but without the evil aspect.

Have a great day! I'm off to the supermarket

Rare photos?!? Not rare at all, but the news agencies don't want to report about it every day or even every week. So a lot of short sited, uninformed, twits that believe god exists think everything is great because they can't see garbage in their area. In fact plastic is killing several hundred thousand animals a year. And it effects millions more, but hey keep your head in the sand and you won't see it so hey there isn't a problem.

If someone sees an animal with a plastic bag on its head or similar, they will take a photo of it. You may be old fashioned and carry no camera, but almost everyone else does and thus they WILL take a photo because it is a sensational thing to see an animal covered in plastic. And they will UPLOAD the photo, because that's what happens. And google will INDEX the photo as part of its image index. So almost all photos that exist are out there online. And what that means is that animals with plastic bags on them are rare. It's a simple statistical truth that everyone can see. You may want to get a better grip on the realities of the internet

Even if plastic kills "several hundred thousand animals a year" (wild guess/speculation? It may very well be true but what source do you have?) that's hardly relevant on a global scale. Millions more are killed in other ways. Plus if you had read my posts before, my argument is essentially that reducing plastic bag usage won't make a difference. Because there will still be billions of plastic bags in circulation. And many other types of plastics create much bigger problems, and that's not even talking about much more severe pollutants. So what I'm saying is that it's a feel good thing that makes no difference.

Not sure where you get the religious angle from, far as I remember nobody talked about anything religious on this thread.

However I'm getting fed up with repeating the same stuff every time, and there's a bunch of people on here who remain focused on the small things that make them feel good but make no difference in the real world. I've made my point, and am signing off from this thread because there's nothing more to say about the subject.

If it makes you happy and gives you a sense of purpose to reduce your plastic bag usage by a 100-odd bags a year, and think that is a great initiative that will save the world from death by plastic, go right ahead and dream on

Am glad you did watch it and took the time to respond. You are entirely correct that plastic bags account for only a proportion of the overall problem. The small chunks referred to are, however the result of plastics breaking up and the bags are very clearly a significant contributor to the problem simply as a result of the sheer volumes consumed. I am no environmentalist either, don't recycle or care much about my carbon footprint but I don't need my shopping double bagged and I do support this initiative as it helps to trash the plant that little bit less. The only solution is reducing demand. Ireland have implemented this very successfully with a tax on plastic bags. Would you pay for one? Note also this is not simply a domestic problem. Af 37.00 you will see where the US are shipping most of their plastic waste. Asia.

I would pay for plastic bags, I just don't want the option removed of having them. As long as the price is reasonable (not like 100 baht a piece or whatever). I remain unconvinced that they are a significant problem but yes if they charged for them it would not be an issue for me. I just want to have them available, ideally for free but if they charge for them at least I can still have them. If they put more items in them to reduce the number of bags used that could lead to bags ripping so is not a solution in my view. They do that in places like Australia but often I say double bag it if they put three wine bottles in the one bag.

I've always been a strong advocate of "improve rather than reduce" - in this case improve the product so the environmental impact is removed, rather than reducing usage which can be highly inconvenient and tends to make very little meaningful difference overall, other than a "feel good" factor.

Same with say car usage: people say reduce it so there's less greenhouse gases; I say change the technology so there's no issue anymore. Costs a bit, like they need to build massive solar and wind plants to generate hydrogen out of seawater to power fuel cell cars, but once this gets done there's no more greenhouse gas production. The technology already exists but costs are too high so far. Once oil goes up more and at the same time there's better yield from solar cells (like the new nanotube ones they are developing which apparently are 15x more efficient) costs will come down and it will become feasible..

I'm flying with Malaysian to Paris in the summer, they allow 30kgs of checked baggage as standard in economy. Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Emirates and Qantas also have a 30 kg checked baggage allowance in economy (40 in business and 50 in first).

I don't care because there's nothing to care about. Far as I can see.

I don't care what you have seen on TV and now believe to be the truth. I don't care what the mainstream public believes without plastic bags -

because they have not really thought about the details and just repeat what they see on TV.

I do care about the environment. But I don't believe bullshit stories in the media.

Tell me what ACTUAL IMPACT plastic bags have on the environment other than visual pollution in a garbage dump. TELL ME YOUR HORROR STORIES ABOUT PLASTIC BAGS.

YOUR OWN ONES - not the ones you see on TV that serve their producers to advance their careers with unproven and hyped up sensationalism.

I bet you (and anyone else reading this) can't tell me any horror stories - because there aren't any real ones.

PB - I suggest you take a few minutes of your time to watch 5 minutes of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzEQ1FxC0fs (from around 41 min). It is an independent documentary and a real horror story with contributions from National Geographic and Marine Scientists that have spent two decades studying this.

The North Pacific Subtropical Gyre is a little far for me to travel so we may have to rely upon the marine scientists that have been studying this area for the past two decades and assume that perhaps they are making this up to 'advance their careers'

Sorry but this one is too long - I don't mind watching a 5 minute movie, but am not gonna watch more than an hour. This one appears to be a compilation of different movies, it starts with the plastic bag movie that was posted on the thread earlier on and which had not much substance to it other than saying there's a lot of plastic out there. That's obviously true. I suspect this movie might be similar, talking about how much plastic there is out there. Plastic upsets people because it is artificial and people believe artificial materials should not be in the environment. However I maintain that plastic is actually one of the more benign artificial materials in the environment. It may look ugly, but it is inert. Some animals may be killed by it, but it's killing far less animals than overfishing, chemical pollution etc. do. However it makes for better photo ops when birds have plastic bags over their heads etc.

If you have watched this entire movie and want me to look at specific moments I'd be happy to comply, just let me know the minutes where there moments are (like at 45:00 or similar). Will come back with comments after, but expect them to be dismissive like my earlier ones. Plastic is politically incorrect (as are my comments) but I remain convinced that it is much less evil than the greenies make it out to be - almost every other type of pollution is far worse, albeit far less visible...

Edit: just noticed you actually mentioning to watch 5 minutes from 41:00 so did that - sorry missed that earlier. As expected I'm gonna be dismissive of it: there is a lot of plastic pollution in the oceans which I was aware of, however very little, if any of this consists of plastic shopping bags. As the movie explains and shows, the plastic in the ocean consists of plastic chips/chunks. This comes from various sources but consists of hard plastics. Reducing shopping bags won't reduce this problem at all. This is what I've been saying all along. Shopping bags are "visible" and therefore people easily jump onto the green bandwagon because of them, but there will be no difference at all to the oceans or the environment in general if plastic shopping bags are banned. What would make a difference is if a different kind of plastics were invented, which would truly biodegrade, and all other plastics banned. But this is not feasible at this stage of evolution of plastics, as far as I understand. So I remain unconvinced of any need to reduce usage of plastic bags, for the reason that it won't make a realistic difference, other than making people feel good for supposedly making a difference.

Nobody has come up with anything convincing IMHO.

IMHO...your opinion sucks big ones.

Your rants are too long winded to be worthy.

Fair enough. But your short responses are meaningless - just repeats of the usual mantra without substance...

These safes always have a master code, just because tourists either forget the code they just entered, or because they leave the safe locked when they leave the hotel.

On top of that, like Payboy said, they often have a very simple additional code like 0000 (I've also seen 1234 and 9999 and some six-digit equivalents).

I never use these safes for these reasons. Either take my valuables with me (chance of getting mugged usually being lower than chance of hotel room burglary in absence), or leave them in a locked suitcase. At the same time, I do lock the safe, to make it look like my valuables are in there and not in the suitcase, for when someone who does not have the safe code, but has an intent, enters the room.

Thais only understand things when it hits them in their wallet. So, to that end, charge the customer 1 or 2 baht for every bag used (small bag = 1 baht, big bag = 2 baht).

Also, some time ago at Terminal 21 I bought 6 pasteries at one of the bake shops in the basement. Yup, you guessed it, each pastry went into it's own little plastic bag to be sealed shut with cello tape, and the lot went into a big plastic bag. So for 6 pastries I walked away with 7 plastic bags and about a meter of cello tape.

Trying to get Thais to cut back on plastic bags is going to be a hard sell, but charging for each bag would go a long way to making it work.

Exactly, spot on. Awareness only goes through the wallet. 1 or 2 Baht might not be enough to make a significant dent.

Make it 5 Baht for the big bag and 2 for the small, and the 500 Million bags per day will be cut at least in half in no time.

OK. And so there's 500 million bags less distributed out there. And what difference would that make? It might reduce employment at one plastic bag manufacturing plant. These employees could then move over to the other plant that makes garbage bags rather than shopping bags, because that plant's demand would go up as people would now have to buy their garbage bags rather than getting them for free from the supermarket. Or am I missing something?

you are right, but telling the truth doesn't get politicians/do gooders any satisfaction. A better target would be excessive packaging.

The both of you are a little uneducated I take it. Open YouTube then search for "plastic ocean" then watch a few of the videos and see if you change your mind. Or go to the beach and in Bang Sean, or Chon Buri, or Phuket and look at all the plastic floating in the water. Or even drive down a neighborhood soi, not tourist areas, a soi where average Thai's live and you will see thousands of plastic bags. Not to mention a lot of Thai's don't use these bags for garbage, how much garbage can you fit into a 1/2 liter bag?

I'm getting repetitive but what is the problem? It may be unsightly but decaying cotton bags or paper bags would also be unsightly. The stuff floating in the ocean is mostly harder plastic not shopping bags, but then there's so much garbage in the ocean that shopping bags are not going to make a difference if they were eliminated. The problem might be bigger even, because more energy would need to be wasted on making other types of bags which are more durable, and many are polyester which would be more polluting and are not biodegradable (the so-called "reusable" bags which are usually made of woven polyester - and are discarded after a few uses in many cases, or forgotten at home and new ones purchased).

Let me begin by stating that I am no environmentalist but after watching 'bag it', a brilliant documentary about the terrible affect that plastic bags are having on marine life in particular I am trying to reduce my consumption of bags as much as possible. 'Bag It' is available on most torrent sites - highly recommended viewing. There is a LOT of evidence if you take the time..

Trailer:

OK - so what does this film say? There's a lot of plastic out there. Is all. It starts with plastic shopping bags then concludes that there's plastic everywhere, in almost every bit of packaging. Lotsa plastic. And if you go to a garbage dump you will see a lot of plastic. BUT WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? Not the plastic. It's inert. It looks ugly, that's true. The REAL PROBLEM is with all the OTHER garbage in the garbage tip. The stuff you don't see. The many chemicals; the radioactivity from discarded X-ray machines and medicines; waste oils; etc.

Plastic bags probably keep that from leaking out into the soil too much

People like to make a case about things they can see. Even if they have to go to a garbage dump to see them. They don't care about things they don't see. Like the real waste problems out there...

PB, it is ignorance like yours that magnifies the global problems.

Are all of these ok by your thinking?

Have you heard the saying 'every little bit helps"

Plastic bags are one single problem in a huge problem of garbage in general.

Plastic bags is one thing everybody that cared just a little bit, could do something about today and for the rest of their days. Refuse a bag, you do not need a bag to carry everything home. You do not need 2 bags when they will all fit in one etc.

This is something you can do something about right now. All the other problems also need addressing and they do, this is just one of them.

You do not need a plastic bag to carry your water bottle out of 7/11. You do need the plastic bottle to carry the water out.

If you cannot see that and any advantage of it, then you simply are one of the ignorant millions that are destroying the planet.

I used to work in some pristine environments, more than you would have ever seen. These areas are now being ruined some 15/20 years on because of the 100 fold increase in rubbish and convenient packaging.

I was in one such environment over xmas and the difference was staggering.

Keep your head in the sand if you want and plead ignorance, but good people will not stop caring, unlike yourself and give up. You are just weak no doubt.

This is exactly what I mean. There's always a few photos out there that are RARE OCCURRENCES of events and that are then posted of evidence of a major problem.

How many of such "plastic wrapped birds" has anyone on this forum actually seen? I'm pretty sure it's zero. On the same basis as forbidding plastic bags, you should argue that arrows (the ones shot from bows) should be forbidden because there's a series of photos out there with birds with arrows through their neck. Just google (on Google Images) "bird with plastic bag" and "bird with arrow". The former will yield the photos posted above plus a few more - it's not like there's heaps of photos out there because it hardly ever happens that birds are caught in bags. The latter search will yield about the same number of birds with arrows in them.

The whole argument of reducing plastic bags or banning them remains a load of <deleted> IMHO. It's not about every little bit helps - because they would be replaced with "reusable" woven polyester bags, which are much heavier and need a lot more energy to produce, and are also wasted albeit after a few more uses. So it would just be shifting the burden another way, until some little old lady in Hampshire finds one of these "reusable" bags in her chicken coop and starts the next round of "let's ban these too". All replacement bags, whether woven polyester, or paper, or cotton etc. require much more energy to produce and similar levels of wastage occur during production and often disposal.

The problem with plastic bags is that they are made of an artificial material and thus people make a big fuss because artificial materials should be avoided at all cost, and if a bit of it ends up in the environment it is a major issue.

The argument about the pristine environments - yes there are areas (in the central Pacific for one) which see a lot of trash wash up on the beaches because they are in a vortex area of ocean currents. There will be a few plastic bags among the trash, but the far majority of it consists of harder and more durable plastics such as pallet covers, polyester chips, PET bottles, etc. This is not a reason to argue that plastic bags are evil. The problem is that all kinds of trash are washed out to sea in rivers, and thrown from ships. Plastic shopping bags are just a very small part of them.

I've asked for concrete examples etc. but nobody gives them. Only reproductions of standard "sample" pictures showcasing the supposed evil of plastic bags. Nobody has come up with anything convincing IMHO.

Many people want to be mainstream and politically correct, and thus follow the prevailing opinion without questioning it (simply because a few pictures exist of birds wrapped in plastic, does not mean there is a global issue with plastic shopping bags - there may be a problem with trash in general but that is a very different issue that is conveniently being bundled into the shopping bag argument it seems).

Many others don't agree but keep silent because they are fearful of opposing the mainstream opinion, which in this case is that plastic bags are evil but nobody really knows why - unless you're basing an opinion on a few pictures and don't care about what is reasonable, or any hard facts or stats.

I repeat: show me the actual facts how PLASTIC SHOPPING BAGS are destroying the environment (and I don't buy a few sensationalist pictures or movies as being proof of that). Waste in general may have a major impact on the environment globally, but PLASTIC SHOPPING BAGS are INERT LIKE GLASS and don't leak chemicals or similar. Some marine animals may eat a few and of course that upsets some people, but I haven't seen any proof that PLASTIC SHOPPING BAGS threaten populations of animals anywhere in the world, or actually pollute the environment in a serious way (apart from annoying a few little old ladies in Hampshire when they blow across their lawn).

My argument remains: there's nothing wrong with plastic shopping bags.

That's not to say there's nothing wrong with global waste. There are serious problems in some areas caused by waste. This is usually caused by leakage of chemicals, petroleum products, medical waste products, radioactivity and similar from areas where waste is dumped. This is a serious issue. But don't confuse that with the issue of plastic shopping bags - because that really is not an issue.

If you still believe plastic bags are a problem, invent a solution. Don't just sit there and try to reduce usage which is non-constructive. Its the same as saying petroleum products cause global warming so let's drive less. <deleted>. Invent a solution that replaces the original "evil" solution with something that does the same, but without the evil aspect.

Have a great day! I'm off to the supermarket

Hail the plastic bag

Back in the 1970's there was a movement started by little old ladies in the UK to collect the aluminum tops of glass milk bottles for recycling. This was quickly embraced as an important solution to the problem of pollution caused by said aluminum milk bottle tops, and particularly school children nationwide would collect these pieces of aluminum foil in large quantities, by the garbage bag full. However any other kind of aluminum, which is used in much larger quantities for other purposes, was ignored.

As some will say, "every little bit helps" but to me it was essentially a load of <deleted> (lots of work for hardly any effect) and this whole debate about plastic shopping bags reminds me of this episode.

It was probably once again started by a little old lady in a village in Hampshire, gazing out of her window across her neatly trimmed lawn, and suddenly she discerned the evil presence of a plastic Tesco bag, being blown across said lawn and scaring the feeding blackbirds! OMG <deleted> (not that she would have used such words).

Not having much to do in the latter years of her life, she quickly enlisted the other retired forces in the village, and a movement was born to reduce and if possible ban the evil plastic bag from all supermarket in the nation and ultimately, the world...

The problem is: what is the problem? Plastic bags are very useful:

• They are made of a small amount of plastic (plastic quantity used for product packaging and every other use in life is much more than that used for small plastic shopping bags; as part of the overall production and use of plastic, shopping bags hardly are a blimp on the radar;
• Shopping bags can and very frequently are re-used as trash bags, so people don't have to go out and buy trash bags (I guess the manufacturers of trash bags are at least partially behind the push for banning plastic shopping bags).
• The so-called eco-bags that people can buy (obviously makes sense to sell bags rather than give them away!) to use instead of the plastic shopping bags provided by supermarkets, are usually made of woven polyester. They take much more energy and raw materials to manufacture. They are only used a few times each, on average. They get dirty, and people throw them out (after keeping them for a while until they get dusty too). People forget them and buy more. They don't make sense, as there is no overall difference/reduction in usage (polyester is a plastic).

The whole debate makes no sense. However plastic shopping bags do. When something "green" comes along, people often jump aboard the bandwagon without questioning whether the issue is reasonable. This issue is not. Some environmentalists have tried to sensationalize things by telling stories of ships full of bags being sent to third world countries for recycling. Really? And if yes, I'm sure they would be put to good use and create jobs

Another point is similar to the "glass half empty" vs the "glass half full" debate. People who claim that we should "reduce" (in other words lower quality of an experience) are non-creative. If something is not the right thing anymore, don't stop using it (that won't work anyway because only a minority will comply) but invent something that is better, to replace it.

That's not polyester bags you purchase and throw away after three times usage rather than one because they're too dirty. It's a whole new solution that is better than a plastic bag. I can't be bothered thinking about one, because plastic bags don't bother me. But to those who take offense at the plastic bag, rather than say "stop using them!", start providing a BETTER and USEFUL replacement for them. Duh!

Until that time, I'm a happy use of as many plastic bags as I get at the supermarket. I re-use them as garbage bags, to carry stuff in until they break, and for storage of items such as clothes etc. It saves me from buying garbage bags and storage bags. The plastic bag is useful. It is a great invention and has very limited environmental impact

How long does it take for these plastic bags to decompose in the garbage dumps where many of the stuff breaks down in less than 100 years some of it with in 6 months. I believe the neighborhood is in the 500 year range for plastic bags.

But yes that is not your problem you are comfortable in any thing that dosen't inconvenience your self.

1. You know what else is in garbage dumps? A lot more scary and poisonous stuff than plastic bags! Plastic is inert. It just sits there. Unless you have a hobby of sitting next to a garbage dump and staring at all the annoying plastic bags in there, I hardly think plastic bags buried in a dump make any difference to anyone at all. Whether they decompose in a year or in 500 years (which I believe is an exaggerated figure but who cares - they are buried in a dump)...

2. The garbage bags in a garbage dump don't inconvenience me, no. They usually don't inconvenience anyone, apart from the guys on the chairs sitting next to the garbage dump and staring at the bags and getting annoyed by them.

3. As I said, when something "green" comes up many people jump on the bandwagon without questioning whether the issue is reasonable. Plastic bags are inert. They don't pollute. It's like glass. It just sits there. So what is the environmental issue, apart from the visual pollution if you dig around in a garbage dump, which few people have as a hobby?

How many accumulative plastice bags will there be there then over that 500 years?

Don't you think that will take some room?

Try not to forget about the percentage that washes into oceans and kills wildlife.

I think he has made his position pretty clear on this. He dosen't care.

I don't care because there's nothing to care about. Far as I can see.

I don't care what you have seen on TV and now believe to be the truth. I don't care what the mainstream public believes without plastic bags -

because they have not really thought about the details and just repeat what they see on TV.

I do care about the environment. But I don't believe bullshit stories in the media.

Tell me what ACTUAL IMPACT plastic bags have on the environment other than visual pollution in a garbage dump. TELL ME YOUR HORROR STORIES ABOUT PLASTIC BAGS.

YOUR OWN ONES - not the ones you see on TV that serve their producers to advance their careers with unproven and hyped up sensationalism.

I bet you (and anyone else reading this) can't tell me any horror stories - because there aren't any real ones.

Hail the plastic bag

Back in the 1970's there was a movement started by little old ladies in the UK to collect the aluminum tops of glass milk bottles for recycling. This was quickly embraced as an important solution to the problem of pollution caused by said aluminum milk bottle tops, and particularly school children nationwide would collect these pieces of aluminum foil in large quantities, by the garbage bag full. However any other kind of aluminum, which is used in much larger quantities for other purposes, was ignored.

As some will say, "every little bit helps" but to me it was essentially a load of <deleted> (lots of work for hardly any effect) and this whole debate about plastic shopping bags reminds me of this episode.

It was probably once again started by a little old lady in a village in Hampshire, gazing out of her window across her neatly trimmed lawn, and suddenly she discerned the evil presence of a plastic Tesco bag, being blown across said lawn and scaring the feeding blackbirds! OMG <deleted> (not that she would have used such words).

Not having much to do in the latter years of her life, she quickly enlisted the other retired forces in the village, and a movement was born to reduce and if possible ban the evil plastic bag from all supermarket in the nation and ultimately, the world...

The problem is: what is the problem? Plastic bags are very useful:

• They are made of a small amount of plastic (plastic quantity used for product packaging and every other use in life is much more than that used for small plastic shopping bags; as part of the overall production and use of plastic, shopping bags hardly are a blimp on the radar;
• Shopping bags can and very frequently are re-used as trash bags, so people don't have to go out and buy trash bags (I guess the manufacturers of trash bags are at least partially behind the push for banning plastic shopping bags).
• The so-called eco-bags that people can buy (obviously makes sense to sell bags rather than give them away!) to use instead of the plastic shopping bags provided by supermarkets, are usually made of woven polyester. They take much more energy and raw materials to manufacture. They are only used a few times each, on average. They get dirty, and people throw them out (after keeping them for a while until they get dusty too). People forget them and buy more. They don't make sense, as there is no overall difference/reduction in usage (polyester is a plastic).

The whole debate makes no sense. However plastic shopping bags do. When something "green" comes along, people often jump aboard the bandwagon without questioning whether the issue is reasonable. This issue is not. Some environmentalists have tried to sensationalize things by telling stories of ships full of bags being sent to third world countries for recycling. Really? And if yes, I'm sure they would be put to good use and create jobs

Another point is similar to the "glass half empty" vs the "glass half full" debate. People who claim that we should "reduce" (in other words lower quality of an experience) are non-creative. If something is not the right thing anymore, don't stop using it (that won't work anyway because only a minority will comply) but invent something that is better, to replace it.

That's not polyester bags you purchase and throw away after three times usage rather than one because they're too dirty. It's a whole new solution that is better than a plastic bag. I can't be bothered thinking about one, because plastic bags don't bother me. But to those who take offense at the plastic bag, rather than say "stop using them!", start providing a BETTER and USEFUL replacement for them. Duh!

Until that time, I'm a happy use of as many plastic bags as I get at the supermarket. I re-use them as garbage bags, to carry stuff in until they break, and for storage of items such as clothes etc. It saves me from buying garbage bags and storage bags. The plastic bag is useful. It is a great invention and has very limited environmental impact

How long does it take for these plastic bags to decompose in the garbage dumps where many of the stuff breaks down in less than 100 years some of it with in 6 months. I believe the neighborhood is in the 500 year range for plastic bags.

But yes that is not your problem you are comfortable in any thing that dosen't inconvenience your self.

1. You know what else is in garbage dumps? A lot more scary and poisonous stuff than plastic bags! Plastic is inert. It just sits there. Unless you have a hobby of sitting next to a garbage dump and staring at all the annoying plastic bags in there, I hardly think plastic bags buried in a dump make any difference to anyone at all. Whether they decompose in a year or in 500 years (which I believe is an exaggerated figure but who cares - they are buried in a dump)...

2. The garbage bags in a garbage dump don't inconvenience me, no. They usually don't inconvenience anyone, apart from the guys on the chairs sitting next to the garbage dump and staring at the bags and getting annoyed by them.

3. As I said, when something "green" comes up many people jump on the bandwagon without questioning whether the issue is reasonable. Plastic bags are inert. They don't pollute. It's like glass. It just sits there. So what is the environmental issue, apart from the visual pollution if you dig around in a garbage dump, which few people have as a hobby?

I covered all that in my post. here I will repost it for you

"But yes that is not your problem you are comfortable in any thing that dosen't inconvenience your self."

It is called I am OK screw everybody else. In two words

Self Centered.

Now you explain why it is not OK to try to lesson the environmental impact by just a very very small bit.

Sure. It does not inconvenience myself, nor does it inconvenience anyone else - apart from those people watching the plastic bags sitting in garbage dumps... Which are very few people anyway

You're suggesting I say "screw everybody else". So you reckon everybody else is inconvenienced (or hurt or killed) by plastic bags? I don't think plastic bags truly inconvenience anyone!

They are supposedly inconveniencing people who watch documentaries by film makers who want to make a sensationalist name for themselves. But nobody on this thread (nor anywhere else for that matter) has been able to tell me exactly how plastic bags are the evil that they are supposed to be. In real terms, not in the terms of sensationalist film makers who exaggerate details and focus on a few examples and blow them up sky-high.

Plastic bags are convenient, and I don't understand how they can inconvenience anyone in reality.

To answer your question about lessening the environmental impact by just a very very small bit: yes I would do that if it did not inconvenience me unduly. But plastic bags are convenient, and their environmental impact is negligible in my view.

As an example I won't throw garbage onto the street as it would mean pollution. So in that sense I try to lessen my environmental impact in a reasonable way, even though it may at times be convenient to just dump that empty packaging on the spot. But a plastic bag to me has such a low environmental impact (if used in a normal way) that I don't see any point in trying to lesson their usage.

If you really want to make an impact, and you're convinced plastic is evil, then stop buying anything packaged in plastic. The total plastic volume of other packaging people use is much greater than the plastic volume of plastic shopping bags. Sensationalist videos, TV programs, and what the public in general appears to believe notwithstanding...

Thais only understand things when it hits them in their wallet. So, to that end, charge the customer 1 or 2 baht for every bag used (small bag = 1 baht, big bag = 2 baht).

Also, some time ago at Terminal 21 I bought 6 pasteries at one of the bake shops in the basement. Yup, you guessed it, each pastry went into it's own little plastic bag to be sealed shut with cello tape, and the lot went into a big plastic bag. So for 6 pastries I walked away with 7 plastic bags and about a meter of cello tape.

Trying to get Thais to cut back on plastic bags is going to be a hard sell, but charging for each bag would go a long way to making it work.

Exactly, spot on. Awareness only goes through the wallet. 1 or 2 Baht might not be enough to make a significant dent.

Make it 5 Baht for the big bag and 2 for the small, and the 500 Million bags per day will be cut at least in half in no time.

OK. And so there's 500 million bags less distributed out there. And what difference would that make? It might reduce employment at one plastic bag manufacturing plant. These employees could then move over to the other plant that makes garbage bags rather than shopping bags, because that plant's demand would go up as people would now have to buy their garbage bags rather than getting them for free from the supermarket. Or am I missing something?

Hail the plastic bag

Back in the 1970's there was a movement started by little old ladies in the UK to collect the aluminum tops of glass milk bottles for recycling. This was quickly embraced as an important solution to the problem of pollution caused by said aluminum milk bottle tops, and particularly school children nationwide would collect these pieces of aluminum foil in large quantities, by the garbage bag full. However any other kind of aluminum, which is used in much larger quantities for other purposes, was ignored.

As some will say, "every little bit helps" but to me it was essentially a load of <deleted> (lots of work for hardly any effect) and this whole debate about plastic shopping bags reminds me of this episode.

It was probably once again started by a little old lady in a village in Hampshire, gazing out of her window across her neatly trimmed lawn, and suddenly she discerned the evil presence of a plastic Tesco bag, being blown across said lawn and scaring the feeding blackbirds! OMG <deleted> (not that she would have used such words).

Not having much to do in the latter years of her life, she quickly enlisted the other retired forces in the village, and a movement was born to reduce and if possible ban the evil plastic bag from all supermarket in the nation and ultimately, the world...

The problem is: what is the problem? Plastic bags are very useful:

• They are made of a small amount of plastic (plastic quantity used for product packaging and every other use in life is much more than that used for small plastic shopping bags; as part of the overall production and use of plastic, shopping bags hardly are a blimp on the radar;
• Shopping bags can and very frequently are re-used as trash bags, so people don't have to go out and buy trash bags (I guess the manufacturers of trash bags are at least partially behind the push for banning plastic shopping bags).
• The so-called eco-bags that people can buy (obviously makes sense to sell bags rather than give them away!) to use instead of the plastic shopping bags provided by supermarkets, are usually made of woven polyester. They take much more energy and raw materials to manufacture. They are only used a few times each, on average. They get dirty, and people throw them out (after keeping them for a while until they get dusty too). People forget them and buy more. They don't make sense, as there is no overall difference/reduction in usage (polyester is a plastic).

The whole debate makes no sense. However plastic shopping bags do. When something "green" comes along, people often jump aboard the bandwagon without questioning whether the issue is reasonable. This issue is not. Some environmentalists have tried to sensationalize things by telling stories of ships full of bags being sent to third world countries for recycling. Really? And if yes, I'm sure they would be put to good use and create jobs

Another point is similar to the "glass half empty" vs the "glass half full" debate. People who claim that we should "reduce" (in other words lower quality of an experience) are non-creative. If something is not the right thing anymore, don't stop using it (that won't work anyway because only a minority will comply) but invent something that is better, to replace it.

That's not polyester bags you purchase and throw away after three times usage rather than one because they're too dirty. It's a whole new solution that is better than a plastic bag. I can't be bothered thinking about one, because plastic bags don't bother me. But to those who take offense at the plastic bag, rather than say "stop using them!", start providing a BETTER and USEFUL replacement for them. Duh!

Until that time, I'm a happy use of as many plastic bags as I get at the supermarket. I re-use them as garbage bags, to carry stuff in until they break, and for storage of items such as clothes etc. It saves me from buying garbage bags and storage bags. The plastic bag is useful. It is a great invention and has very limited environmental impact

How long does it take for these plastic bags to decompose in the garbage dumps where many of the stuff breaks down in less than 100 years some of it with in 6 months. I believe the neighborhood is in the 500 year range for plastic bags.

But yes that is not your problem you are comfortable in any thing that dosen't inconvenience your self.

1. You know what else is in garbage dumps? A lot more scary and poisonous stuff than plastic bags! Plastic is inert. It just sits there. Unless you have a hobby of sitting next to a garbage dump and staring at all the annoying plastic bags in there, I hardly think plastic bags buried in a dump make any difference to anyone at all. Whether they decompose in a year or in 500 years (which I believe is an exaggerated figure but who cares - they are buried in a dump)...

2. The garbage bags in a garbage dump don't inconvenience me, no. They usually don't inconvenience anyone, apart from the guys on the chairs sitting next to the garbage dump and staring at the bags and getting annoyed by them.

3. As I said, when something "green" comes up many people jump on the bandwagon without questioning whether the issue is reasonable. Plastic bags are inert. They don't pollute. It's like glass. It just sits there. So what is the environmental issue, apart from the visual pollution if you dig around in a garbage dump, which few people have as a hobby?

How many accumulative plastice bags will there be there then over that 500 years?

Don't you think that will take some room?

Try not to forget about the percentage that washes into oceans and kills wildlife.

Plastic bags, obviously, are an extremely small part of the garbage dumped by volume. So yes over the course of 500 years let's say as an example a billion tonnes of old plastic bags are dumped. But during the same time frame, each and every year a billion tonnes of other garbage is dumped too. The total volume of garbage bags is negligible compared to the total volume of other waste dumped. Much of which is dangerous and a pollutant.

And as far as "the percentage" that washes into oceans, that's certainly not true. Of course a few bags wash into oceans. But certainly not a percentage (a single percent would require 1 in 100 bags to end up in the ocean - that would be an impossibly high number). Yes the few that end up in the ocean pollute and kill some wildlife.

Other things do too, and much more seriously, like chemical spills, nuclear tests, exploding oil rigs, dirty rivers dumping dirty water into oceans, etc. The question is whether there is any evidence that significant wildlife kills occur due to plastic bags. Of course there will be sensationalized videos available showing the poor seals, birds, and other wildlife getting mercilessly wiped out by a torrent of plastic being cast in their direction.

The reality is, that whilst there's a lot of plastic in the oceans, the far majority of it is from other plastic sources (durable packaging etc. rather than bags). And whilst it is upsetting to see the status quo change, there is still no reason to assume that plastic bags make a SIGNIFICANT impact on the worlds oceans. They don't.

I repeat: plastic bags are no environmental issue of significance. They annoy people, because people need something to annoy them, because life would be too boring without annoyances.

I'm still waiting for someone to provide a valid reason why plastic bags are a serious environmental issue (more serious than the other stuff that ends up in garbage dumps, or on the street, or in the pool, or whatever

Hail the plastic bag

Back in the 1970's there was a movement started by little old ladies in the UK to collect the aluminum tops of glass milk bottles for recycling. This was quickly embraced as an important solution to the problem of pollution caused by said aluminum milk bottle tops, and particularly school children nationwide would collect these pieces of aluminum foil in large quantities, by the garbage bag full. However any other kind of aluminum, which is used in much larger quantities for other purposes, was ignored.

As some will say, "every little bit helps" but to me it was essentially a load of <deleted> (lots of work for hardly any effect) and this whole debate about plastic shopping bags reminds me of this episode.

It was probably once again started by a little old lady in a village in Hampshire, gazing out of her window across her neatly trimmed lawn, and suddenly she discerned the evil presence of a plastic Tesco bag, being blown across said lawn and scaring the feeding blackbirds! OMG <deleted> (not that she would have used such words).

Not having much to do in the latter years of her life, she quickly enlisted the other retired forces in the village, and a movement was born to reduce and if possible ban the evil plastic bag from all supermarket in the nation and ultimately, the world...

The problem is: what is the problem? Plastic bags are very useful:

• They are made of a small amount of plastic (plastic quantity used for product packaging and every other use in life is much more than that used for small plastic shopping bags; as part of the overall production and use of plastic, shopping bags hardly are a blimp on the radar;
• Shopping bags can and very frequently are re-used as trash bags, so people don't have to go out and buy trash bags (I guess the manufacturers of trash bags are at least partially behind the push for banning plastic shopping bags).
• The so-called eco-bags that people can buy (obviously makes sense to sell bags rather than give them away!) to use instead of the plastic shopping bags provided by supermarkets, are usually made of woven polyester. They take much more energy and raw materials to manufacture. They are only used a few times each, on average. They get dirty, and people throw them out (after keeping them for a while until they get dusty too). People forget them and buy more. They don't make sense, as there is no overall difference/reduction in usage (polyester is a plastic).

The whole debate makes no sense. However plastic shopping bags do. When something "green" comes along, people often jump aboard the bandwagon without questioning whether the issue is reasonable. This issue is not. Some environmentalists have tried to sensationalize things by telling stories of ships full of bags being sent to third world countries for recycling. Really? And if yes, I'm sure they would be put to good use and create jobs

Another point is similar to the "glass half empty" vs the "glass half full" debate. People who claim that we should "reduce" (in other words lower quality of an experience) are non-creative. If something is not the right thing anymore, don't stop using it (that won't work anyway because only a minority will comply) but invent something that is better, to replace it.

That's not polyester bags you purchase and throw away after three times usage rather than one because they're too dirty. It's a whole new solution that is better than a plastic bag. I can't be bothered thinking about one, because plastic bags don't bother me. But to those who take offense at the plastic bag, rather than say "stop using them!", start providing a BETTER and USEFUL replacement for them. Duh!

Until that time, I'm a happy use of as many plastic bags as I get at the supermarket. I re-use them as garbage bags, to carry stuff in until they break, and for storage of items such as clothes etc. It saves me from buying garbage bags and storage bags. The plastic bag is useful. It is a great invention and has very limited environmental impact

How long does it take for these plastic bags to decompose in the garbage dumps where many of the stuff breaks down in less than 100 years some of it with in 6 months. I believe the neighborhood is in the 500 year range for plastic bags.

But yes that is not your problem you are comfortable in any thing that dosen't inconvenience your self.

1. You know what else is in garbage dumps? A lot more scary and poisonous stuff than plastic bags! Plastic is inert. It just sits there. Unless you have a hobby of sitting next to a garbage dump and staring at all the annoying plastic bags in there, I hardly think plastic bags buried in a dump make any difference to anyone at all. Whether they decompose in a year or in 500 years (which I believe is an exaggerated figure but who cares - they are buried in a dump)...

2. The garbage bags in a garbage dump don't inconvenience me, no. They usually don't inconvenience anyone, apart from the guys on the chairs sitting next to the garbage dump and staring at the bags and getting annoyed by them.

3. As I said, when something "green" comes up many people jump on the bandwagon without questioning whether the issue is reasonable. Plastic bags are inert. They don't pollute. It's like glass. It just sits there. So what is the environmental issue, apart from the visual pollution if you dig around in a garbage dump, which few people have as a hobby?

Hail the plastic bag

Back in the 1970's there was a movement started by little old ladies in the UK to collect the aluminum tops of glass milk bottles for recycling. This was quickly embraced as an important solution to the problem of pollution caused by said aluminum milk bottle tops, and particularly school children nationwide would collect these pieces of aluminum foil in large quantities, by the garbage bag full. However any other kind of aluminum, which is used in much larger quantities for other purposes, was ignored.

As some will say, "every little bit helps" but to me it was essentially a load of <deleted> (lots of work for hardly any effect) and this whole debate about plastic shopping bags reminds me of this episode.

It was probably once again started by a little old lady in a village in Hampshire, gazing out of her window across her neatly trimmed lawn, and suddenly she discerned the evil presence of a plastic Tesco bag, being blown across said lawn and scaring the feeding blackbirds! OMG <deleted> (not that she would have used such words).

Not having much to do in the latter years of her life, she quickly enlisted the other retired forces in the village, and a movement was born to reduce and if possible ban the evil plastic bag from all supermarket in the nation and ultimately, the world...

The problem is: what is the problem? Plastic bags are very useful:

• They are made of a small amount of plastic (plastic quantity used for product packaging and every other use in life is much more than that used for small plastic shopping bags; as part of the overall production and use of plastic, shopping bags hardly are a blimp on the radar;
• Shopping bags can and very frequently are re-used as trash bags, so people don't have to go out and buy trash bags (I guess the manufacturers of trash bags are at least partially behind the push for banning plastic shopping bags).
• The so-called eco-bags that people can buy (obviously makes sense to sell bags rather than give them away!) to use instead of the plastic shopping bags provided by supermarkets, are usually made of woven polyester. They take much more energy and raw materials to manufacture. They are only used a few times each, on average. They get dirty, and people throw them out (after keeping them for a while until they get dusty too). People forget them and buy more. They don't make sense, as there is no overall difference/reduction in usage (polyester is a plastic).

The whole debate makes no sense. However plastic shopping bags do. When something "green" comes along, people often jump aboard the bandwagon without questioning whether the issue is reasonable. This issue is not. Some environmentalists have tried to sensationalize things by telling stories of ships full of bags being sent to third world countries for recycling. Really? And if yes, I'm sure they would be put to good use and create jobs

Another point is similar to the "glass half empty" vs the "glass half full" debate. People who claim that we should "reduce" (in other words lower quality of an experience) are non-creative. If something is not the right thing anymore, don't stop using it (that won't work anyway because only a minority will comply) but invent something that is better, to replace it.

That's not polyester bags you purchase and throw away after three times usage rather than one because they're too dirty. It's a whole new solution that is better than a plastic bag. I can't be bothered thinking about one, because plastic bags don't bother me. But to those who take offense at the plastic bag, rather than say "stop using them!", start providing a BETTER and USEFUL replacement for them. Duh!

Until that time, I'm a happy use of as many plastic bags as I get at the supermarket. I re-use them as garbage bags, to carry stuff in until they break, and for storage of items such as clothes etc. It saves me from buying garbage bags and storage bags. The plastic bag is useful. It is a great invention and has very limited environmental impact

30% in cash (term deposits in AUD, CNY and GBP but change as required over time) spread over three or more non-related banks in three continents.

30% in real estate (ideally spread over a few different countries on different continents).

30% in shares (get the iBillionaire app for the iPhone and copy some strategy on there, or play the markets yourself but don't let some guy at the local bank branch or brokerage do it. The fact that they're still working for a living is a good indicator of why you shouldn't.

10% in bullion (long term as an emergency fund; gold is dodgy right now but long term it will likely hold up; buy small units such as pure gold coins - Maple Leafs , Kruger rands and the like you could use to pay with in crisis situations). Keep it in a safe or in a secret location (buried or embedded in a wall in the house that nobody knows apart from yourself and the little drawing in your last will).

Is what I would do...

I guess you're looking for some kind of Windows-based app which I can't help with. However Paiboon has an Android app called the Talking Thai-English-Thai Dictionary. It can be purchased from the Google Play store. I find it quite useful to translate words from English to Thai and then listen to them. There's also Thai script in the app. Overall very useful, particularly if you have an Android phone or tablet (and I think its also available for Apple) but it won't translate sentences.

Are all water bodies where fish died only fed with rainwater? If tap water is used too, would see if there's anything "funny" going on with the tap water.

If only rain water, and it has not rained for a long time, you could look at whether there's any herbicides and/or insecticides that may have been used in the area in preceding months may have been washed into the water by the rain. If chemicals are regularly used, they could accumulate on the topsoil and easily get washed into the water. If it rains regularly, they may not be very concentrated as they are flushed out, but if they have accumulated and there was only a little bit of rain this water could have been highly contaminated with the concentrated chemicals.

Just a suggestion, can't really think of any other reason why the fish in different nearby locations all die in the same period.

Easiest would be to just annex them one by one. Cambodia should take only a few days to overrun. Then wait a year to let the dust settle, and then annex Laos, another job that should not take much time at all (maybe need to buy some more tanks, is all). A year later, Burma. That's bigger so may take a bit more time, but with enough tanks and strategic bombing of key installations should be easy to do too. Impose Thai culture and language on them, and suppress any dissent. Vietnam can be left alone, because the new superstate will have enough power to lean on them, and get them to comply with any demands or be annexed too. Problem solved.

In the past week or so the baht has been rising against the AUD and NZD too (and presumably other currencies). Before it was mainly the USD and JPY, which is logical due to the quantitative easing happening in the US and Japan.

I guess they gotta try and get the baht back in check as in the mid term it will probably be disadvantageous across the board to have the baht this high (not just exports but tourism as well).

I have an account with a US maildrop company (I use earthclassmail but there are others) which allows me to order things that only ship within the US on eBay and from any other US supplier that does not ship internationally.

I usually group items together and create one shipment which I then send via registered mail to wherever I want it (Chiangmai or Aus or NZ etc.). I do have tp pay some import duty sometimes but it is reasonable. The handy thing with using a service like this is that you fully control the shipping process.

Used to live in the Loyalty Islands (off the coast of New Caledonia) in the early 1990's. That's a tribal society, Melanesian population living in tribal villages and a few whites as teachers and medical staff. My wife at the time was a schoolteacher. What happened was they introduced TV which previously was not available there at all.

This rapidly changed behavior in children at first, and across the board over time. The natural smiles started to gradually but relatively rapidly disappear, and kids became more aggressive in class etc. over the course of a couple of years.

Not sure to what degree TV might have something to do with it in LOS. Increased tourism and the ups and downs that go with that must have also played a role here.

But I don't think this kind of change happens "naturally". It is triggered by being opened up to a wider and nastier world/reality. A loss of innocence in a way.

In my experience banks in many countries (Europe and Asia Pacific) allow the "sender" of the money to decide how to send it. So if I send money from New Zealand to my Bangkok Bank account, I can opt to send it in either NZD or THB.

If I send it in THB, the local NZ bank will convert it at their rate (which incidentally is usually bad), so I send it in NZD. Bangkok Bank then automatically converts it to THB which tends to give me a better rate.

The same would apply for sending USD to a Thai AUD account for example: you choose whether to convert the USD to AUD at the time of sending, or if you don't presumably the receiving bank will convert upon receipt.

If you send a large amount (what consists a large amount varies by bank in my experience), the bank should phone you and agree on a conversion rate prior to conversion.

However you should confirm with both the sending bank and receiving bank about their procedures I'd say. US banks are probably going to be different from most other countries in that the level of control and interference from the government in the banking world is significantly greater, and thus you may not get the same flexibility as in other markets, I assume.

For those of us who can't afford the Westmalle, Duvel, Orval or Chimay, there's always Beer Lao Dark

The psudoephedrine containing one seems to be back on the shelves now.

Guess the labs in Myanmar must have been complaining that they could not get a sufficient supply of raw materials for their yaba production