ABCer

'... the Buk's manufacturer presented its own report trying to clear the separatists, and Russia itself, of any involvement.' Meaning the missile self-launched?

Everybody knows Russia is the "BUK" manufacturer.

Ukraine has "BUK" installations too.

It is a very old model of Earth-to-Air rocket system, dating back to Soviets in 1963 (???).

It can be found anywhere. But it is not a hand held 'stinger' type rocket. One needs serious equipment and trained staff to hit a plane.

Dutch investigators may wright what they like, but some facts remain an unexplained mystery suggesting there were other than "BUK" factors.

I have great respect for Dutch flowers industry. In this investigation Russians without doubt should have been a part.

The article demonstrates there is clearly a large amount of pent up anger, frustration and hopelessness among young Palestinians after their parents and grandparents' failed efforts to get any justice and peace after 48 years of Israeli occupation. The most ordinary people have had enough and just snap.

If Netanyahu were a true statesman he would give the people his army is occupying, young Palestinians, some hope by sitting down to serious peace negotiations with the PA. Show there is a peaceful way to settle disputes. He says he is willing to do so without conditions, but the very fact he continues to expand illegal Israeli settlements on stolen Palestinian land is a precondition in itself ... he has already decided Israel's future borders without discussing them

A moratorium on settlement building, and the release of hundreds of Palestinian political prisoners held without charge would create good will, give hope to Palestinians and calm things down.

I can only agree on Netanyahu and his Cabinet being a bunch of idiots.

Nothing will calm things down. No amount of land given to "Palestinians" will create good will. Sitting down to talks and peace negotiations with "Palestinians" is hopeless. No land was ever owned in Palestine by Arabs of Gaza.

Displaying their anger and frustration by murder of innocent people deserves only one justified response - they should be killed on the spot, not arrested. And I would go for their families too.

With attitudes like this I can well imagine the sense of hopelessness and frustration that the young Palestinians in the OP feel.

With one essential difference - I didn't kill anybody. Not "Palestinians", not Jews, not even a TV member!

Stupid Israeli Cabinet!

"Friction" is not a geographic phenomenon.

Young Arab "Kids" - girls, boys and their mums do not need to climb a steep hill to use a knife for stabbing.

All they have to do is go to a mosque, get "inspired" and grab a knife.

As a matter of fact, from the pics and vids I have seen - they bring their tools with them to the mosques.

I'm not sure if this is forbidden by Koran?.

stevenl, - nothing personal, but people with crystal clear vision and understanding of things are often led by the hand to their firm view point.

There is one report and description of related events (with photographs) by a German ex-pilot which is putting an entirely new light on the whole incident.

He argues quite convincingly that the damage was done by 30 mm anti-tank machine gun shells exploding inside the cockpit. The fire according to him came from two Ukrainian military jets each firing from opposite direction.

Ukrainians dismiss these allegations by quoting the insufficient ceiling of these planes. Wrong! The actual ceiling of their machines was and is 10,800 m.

The German pilot sounds very reasonable and not politically motivated. His explanations are the only ones explaining the nature and shapes of incoming and outcoming punctures.

Do not ask me for reference. I do not remember. But maybe some member here can help with this? Thanks in advance.

And finally:

Russkies had no motive for such an act;

Rebels had no motive for such an act;

Ukrainians had no motive for such an act;

Unknowingly, by mistake any one of the above could have fired this "BUK";

But if it was not "BUK" that downed the plane - the entirely new ball game appears.

If the culprits are rebels - no matter what language they speak, no matter who supports them - legally they are Ukrainian's responsibility.

And yes, I do question the impartiality and the expertise of this Dutch Investigative Body.

Perhaps what I miss in 'clear vision and conviction' of some is compensated by 'doubt'. I doubt everything I'm told.

Many people thought and said the same. All of them were right.

Pity you only see and think about the economical aspect of this invasion.

There is a greater danger lurking in the shade - Islamization of Europe.

Europe will pay more than just money for this frivolity.

The word "deserves" is suspect to me.

You, me and anybody else deserve what we've got.

No free freedom. No free lunch. No free living. You must get it, take, fight for it, work for it.

If you believe Americans are altruistically trying to help different people at different parts of the World to become free, prosperous and happy - you are a dreamer. A dangerous dreamer. The same goes for Russians.

Every person, people, Nation must come to what it wants through their own effort. Not imported help.

And don't tell me Assad is a tyrant. If he is - let Syrians get rid of him. Not Russians, British or Americans.

100% agree. But Russia's been involved with Syria for years providing weapons. All 3rd parties should leave. Including Hamas, Iran, etc. But that's not going to happen. Too much money involved.

Remember, Russia's done 1.5 billion in arms sales to Syria. That's big money.

Yes, I'm a dreamer. Like Martin Luther King. Dreams like that are a good thing, right?

Hey, craigt 3365,

I like you and many things you say, but stop playing marked cards. This is utterly unfair! Please, do not force me to defend Russians because I do not like them as a State.

But selling weapons is legal. So do US, France, GB, China, etc. 1.5 Bn in arms sales between countries is not excessive. How much is US selling to Saudis? Please, be fair.

Dreaming is good for humanity - sometimes. A good dream can bring about a good change. Or a bad change. Or no change. Or be dangerous to the dreamer. No punt meant, just saying...

One more thing. It is extremely rare for different people to see the same dreams

LOL. I'm not a card player, so wouldn't know how to use marked cards! LOL

Absolutely true about weapon sales. My point was the financial tie between Russia and Syria. Just like the US has with many countries, France/UK/etc all the same. I'm 100% against any arms being sold to dictators like this. Yet, it's BIG business and is done by many countries around the world. Unfortunately!!!

True and well said.

I might let you in on a secret.

IF, and I mean if! - there had been no interference of any outside forces -

there would have been no ISIS, no Al-Qaeda, no HAMAS, no Hezbollah, etc

there would have been no Afghanistan, no Iraq, no Libya, no Syria, etc

Arabs and Jews would have been living in Israel like the present Israeli Arabs do

... but this is not our rotten miserable World I am talking about...

The word "deserves" is suspect to me.

You, me and anybody else deserve what we've got.

No free freedom. No free lunch. No free living. You must get it, take, fight for it, work for it.

If you believe Americans are altruistically trying to help different people at different parts of the World to become free, prosperous and happy - you are a dreamer. A dangerous dreamer. The same goes for Russians.

Every person, people, Nation must come to what it wants through their own effort. Not imported help.

And don't tell me Assad is a tyrant. If he is - let Syrians get rid of him. Not Russians, British or Americans.

100% agree. But Russia's been involved with Syria for years providing weapons. All 3rd parties should leave. Including Hamas, Iran, etc. But that's not going to happen. Too much money involved.

Remember, Russia's done 1.5 billion in arms sales to Syria. That's big money.

Yes, I'm a dreamer. Like Martin Luther King. Dreams like that are a good thing, right?

Hey, craigt 3365,

I like you and many things you say, but stop playing marked cards. This is utterly unfair! Please, do not force me to defend Russians because I do not like them as a State.

But selling weapons is legal. So do US, France, GB, China, etc. 1.5 Bn in arms sales between countries is not excessive. How much is US selling to Saudis? Please, be fair.

Dreaming is good for humanity - sometimes. A good dream can bring about a good change. Or a bad change. Or no change. Or be dangerous to the dreamer. No punt meant, just saying...

One more thing. It is extremely rare for different people to see the same dreams

A girl being detained in custody says she was raped and we have a posterbsuggesting because she is black and young and it is hot that she asked for it.

Such ignorant racism.

Racist, racism, ignorant...

Now you can 'like' each other posts here ad infinitum. I am not a racist. You actually are. Yes, Linky, simple1 and Seastallion - you are a racist mob.

You are ready to Lynch me here for saying that 'Alleged is not Guilty'

You are ready to Lynch me here for asking proof of allegation

You are ready to Lynch me here for pointing out the alternative explanation of pregnancy of this 23 year old Somali girl.

You are ready to Lynch me here despite the fact that alleged rapist is also black!

You guys must be mad rabid!

And your only reasons for Lynching is - she is black, she is a refugee, she is a detainee, she says she was raped!

Now tell me who is a racist? Who is ignorant? Who should be ashamed? Not me, thankyou.

Not sure who put Mogherini in the position to speak on Europe's behalf but it looks to me she wants to appoint those speakers on Syria at the round table.

Given the huge number of small nameless gangs plus ISIS plus Al-Nusra - who is going to say what and who is going to implement what?

All insurgency down first! All criminal groups wiped out first! Than elections under International observers. And if Assad loses - he will go away.

This is a very fickle part of the world. As easily as people can make the meteoric rise to popularity, they can find their heads on a platter.

I do wish Putin all the best. It would be nice if someone could bring some stability to the reason. I don't agree with his tactics, but time will tell.

Agreed! Unfortunately, all Putin is doing is propping up Assad. He's the start of all this stuff in the first place. Hard to see how getting him back in power will solve anything. Other than restoring a brutal dictator to power...which the people will probably rebel against again in the future???

What makes you think Western way of life or democracy is what this people want or can handle?

Look at Egypt, Syria even Iraq, what happened when western ideology was applied

100% agree. But everybody deserves a life free from repression. Free from persecution. How do you do that? It ain't easy. But that's what started this mess. Assad's repression of his people.

No easy answers here....

The word "deserves" is suspect to me.

You, me and anybody else deserve what we've got.

No free freedom. No free lunch. No free living. You must get it, take, fight for it, work for it.

If you believe Americans are altruistically trying to help different people at different parts of the World to become free, prosperous and happy - you are a dreamer. A dangerous dreamer. The same goes for Russians.

Every person, people, Nation must come to what it wants through their own effort. Not imported help.

And don't tell me Assad is a tyrant. If he is - let Syrians get rid of him. Not Russians, British or Americans.

dexterm, with all due respect you are fooling yourself.

There can not be a two states solution. It would be suicidal for Israel.

There can not be a one state solution. It would be suicidal for Israel.

There will never be any peace in Palestine between Jew and Arab.

Not after the Peace Process. Not on any Road Map to Peace. Not in Camp David.

Sorry to disappoint you. Dreams and Illusions are not reality. Cheers.

What negative pessimism!

... and no peace will eventually be suicidal to Israel, as younger American voters more familiar with the social media become more aware of the monstrous Israeli hoax their parents and grandparents have been blindly supporting. And as a groundswell in Europe one day translates into EU sanctions in response to some fresh Israeli atrocities, and a stagnation of the Israeli economy

The only future in which Israel may enjoy permanent peace in a state with a predominantly Jewish character is a just 2 state solution. Anything else will be a slippery slope to a one state solution that will see Jews eventually outnumbered.

I hope you are not a member of any Israeli peace negotiating team. Israel would stand no chance for a stable future.

I am not pessimistic. I am not negatively pessimistic. I am a realist. BTW pessimist is a former optimist after being better informed.

And it is true that no peace between Arab and Jew can be lethal. But it can turn out lethal either to Jews, or to Arabs, or to both. I am not a prophet. You seem to prophesize all the time.

Funny when you are talking about stagnation of Israeli economy. Especially compared to Arabs 'economy'. Equally funny when you are talking about Israeli atrocities.

Do not worry, I am not "a member of any Israeli..." Israel IMHO does have a chance for a stable future. If they manage one way or another to get rid of their Arab problem.

Arabs of Palestine on the other hand have no such a chance, even in case Israel was miraculously taken out of the picture.

And it is this my understanding that makes me put my money on Israel. Any time. Any place. At any odds.

dexterm, with all due respect you are fooling yourself.

There can not be a two states solution. It would be suicidal for Israel.

There can not be a one state solution. It would be suicidal for Israel.

There will never be any peace in Palestine between Jew and Arab.

Not after the Peace Process. Not on any Road Map to Peace. Not in Camp David.

Sorry to disappoint you. Dreams and Illusions are not reality. Cheers.

Any information from the victim as to who raped her?

It is too easy to get pregnant with unwanted child.

Not so easy to avoid temptation at 23 with hot African blood in hot Nauru climate.

No offence meant. Just trying to be objective.

That's the kind of ignorant racism I'd expect 50 years ago from a Southern gentleman sitting on his porch in Alabama.

Hot African blood! Because she's African, she's likely to have asked for sex, or sought it.

because she's African, blame the victim.

Disgusting racism at it's worst.

And instead of being ashamed of yourself as you should be, you are defending yourself.

Absolutely futile to try making me feel ashamed. I say what I mean and I think before saying.

Hot climates are always associated with sexual early maturity and drive. African, Thai or Polynesian - not important. It is a medical fact.

Never said she has asked for sex or sought it. Just suggested a possibility of a 23 year old being tempted.

Information about rapist could be easily verified in Australia using DNA. All I did was asked if there is any.

Cannot see what caused such vicious attacks on my personality for asking reasonable questions?

Unless both you and this simpleton No1 didn't have your breakfast yet?

Spewing out baseless accusations of racism does not affect me. I know I am not a racist.

I also never blamed the victim. I allowed myself a doubt and asked for more facts. I also assumed that allegation is not guilt.

You two obviously are not up to it. Better get off my back. I sure as hell was not in Nauru.

Four Israelis and 24 Palestinians including eight children have died in 12 days of bloodshed.

Again, you can plainly see from the stats how the Israelis play the victim when they are in fact the aggressor. Israeli officials claim to want to calm things down, but they use disproportionate force to escalate the situation.

This is a build up to something more sinister on the part of Netanyahu's government....he has done it before. It may keep him in power for a few more months, but it will not create permanent peace, and will make more enemies for Israel worldwide. Israel blunders on, managing the conflict, shooting itself in the foot, rather than searching for a solution. Time is on the side of the Palestinians.

No wonder they say that there are lies, dirty lies and statistics.

Arabs hostile to Israelis in ME outnumber them at about 50:1 ratio.

Only 24 "Palestinians" - perpetrators against 4 Israelis in my books is cheap! Almost a bargain.

Putin propping up Assad is not important.

Obama trying to topple Assad is not important.

Naturally, having opposite aims they consider each other actions wrong. And even this is not important!

What is extremely important - Obama, USA and their Allies were and are supporting ISIS type of insurgents.

Putin is often accused of crimes against humanity. Without saying he is or is not guilty, -

Should Obama and US Administration be allowed to share the fame of ISIS in their undeniable recorded crimes against humanity?

Any information from the victim as to who raped her?

It is too easy to get pregnant with unwanted child.

Not so easy to avoid temptation at 23 with hot African blood in hot Nauru climate.

No offence meant. Just trying to be objective.

Yes you are being offensive with your usual smart arse commentary.

Nearly all offences against detainees are by detention staff, although one detainee has been accused of rape. Compounding the problems, staff who wish to highlight the abuse are not permitted to talk with media and subject to two years sentence if they do so. Medical staff treating traumatised children from Naura in Oz have refused to sign-off their transfer back to Naura.

A quote from a media report...

"Many of the complaints by female asylum seekers revolve around Nauruan guards employed by Australian contractors Wilson Security and Transfield Services, with allegations of drunkenness and lechery. Twelve guards have been sacked by those companies for misconduct"

If you could leave my "smart arse" alone I might overlook your being number one simple.

Go back to my first line: 'Any information from the victim as to who raped her?'

Try to apply your simplicity to OP saying "ALLEGED" and look up the meaning of the word.

Even if allegations of misconduct, drunkenness and lechery of Nauruans are true the young Somali girl could have been tempted.

Finally, even in absence of visible signs of your lechery and drunkenness - you have attacked my ass. Publicly.

And to all those bleeding hearts screaming "you can't kill women and children" -

The only correct answer is - "women and children like this must be killed or they will kill you".

Too many members here express regrets that "Palestinians" attacking Israelis use inadequate weapons.

Knives instead of guns. Maybe even guns instead of bombs?

I can only say that they have used all of these weapons in the past. They will use them again. But with the same result.

No R.I.P. from me.

konying <quote> "Isis are paid contractors, they will move to whoever or wherever pay is higher."

I sincerely hope they are genuine believers or simply a bunch of criminals with unhealthy psycho.

Because they are incurable. They do inhuman things. And the normal humane treatment is not warranted. They can and must be only exterminated.

Please, konying, think what you are saying. Because if you are right - their employers must be exterminated with the same finality!

I wouldn't put it like ABC, but what's obvious to me is if Israel was just another tribe of Arabs/Muslims instead of mostly JEWISH PEOPLE, the attention on them regionally and internationally would be scaled down from toxically obsessive to barely anything.

Of course you wouldn't. Because you cannot!. You are too correct. You are popping out of your skin to be Politically Correct. And the worst thing is you are trying to convince here members who cannot be convinced in anything.

I prefer to call things by their real names. A spade is a spade. Shit is shit, not a deposit or an excrement or a by-product of living organism. And an anti-semite is a hater of Jews for whatever his reasons might be. Trying to educate them is futile.

They don't want to see, hear or understand. They are behaving like they've been lobotomized. Exact copy of Palestinian Arabs. And you here and many Jews in Israel are trying... Really trying...

Religion is the main excuse, but behind that is tribal affiliations. Throughout much of the ME, there is a great deal of infighting with those from the same religion, but with different tribal affiliations.

The situation between the Israeli's and Palestinians is multi-dimensional.

It is true. But it also in some way to some degree exonerates Israelis?

It was said for a million times: If Arabs stop war - there will be peace. If Jews stop war - there will be massacre.

The real problem is not land - there is plenty of it.

The real problem is not Religion - world knows many religions.

The real problem is not tribes - they existed in this area for millennia.

The real problem is - Arabs of Palestine have nothing to live for. Arabs of Palestine have built nothing in the same time Jews have built Israel. Arabs of Palestine are the"Jews" of Arab world and no other Arabs want them.

Arabs of Palestine can only hate, fight, breed and die and are nicely paid to do just this. Arabs of Palestine can not be re-educated, rehabilitated, re-located for the reasons mentioned.

Arabs of Palestine from Gaza or West Bank are not even indigenous to the Israeli territory. Now you can call me a racist...

But no, you cannot call me a racist because Arabs of Israel live with Jews, work with Jews and have plenty of reasons to live for.

OP : "We believe that Russia has the wrong strategy" - says US.

"We believe US has the wrong strategy" - says Russia.

"We believe Assad must go" - says US.

"We believe the Syrians must decide that" - says Russia.

" Now, now, immediately!" - says US.

" No, not a chance, first quash insurgency" - says Russia.

" A black plague on both your houses" - says me. Just trying to be impartial.

By Russia getting involved with Iran it has checkmated the US who have if you care to have a look at a map of the Middle east being actively destabilising the entire region with political and military intervention in several nations, history shows us when this happens a vacuum appears hence IS and the Taliban become new players in the region.

Western media paint Putin as a devil and Assad of Syria a tyrant, well folks until the spring uprising and the US envelopment in Afghanistan and Iraq there was peace through out the area, if anything the US and the world should stop backing Israel to pressure them into a long lasting settlement of the Palistine issue, this is all related one goes with the other.

Alex, your triple R rating is impressive.

Next time when speaking of "long lasting settlement of the Palestine issue" better use "final solution" term - you will be better understood.

Oh, yeah! I do not know where from did you fall on Earth but there was never ever peace throughout the area.

As a consolation - take it from me: - there never will be peace in this area!

Why not hide your head in the Camp David area to be safe?

Any information from the victim as to who raped her?

It is too easy to get pregnant with unwanted child.

Not so easy to avoid temptation at 23 with hot African blood in hot Nauru climate.

No offence meant. Just trying to be objective.

A bit hard to appreciate a back bencher in Congress or the Senate retiring after 4 years of doing nothing getting a significant pension for the rest of their life.

As I keep telling my Thai g/f there is no fairness in life. She and her family are proof of that. Unless the sperm that created you came from a golden faucet your in for a world of hurt unless your another Bill Gates which most of us are not. Yes the world is full of opportunity but only for a select few. And as this thread states even with a brain firing on all cylinders you can still get mired down in poverty. Life has many crossroads sometimes we make a left when we should have turned right. Touch wood I have been lucky so far and the goalpost of life is in sight. I just hope I do not drop the ball at this stage.

Good luck to you, elgordo. Try not to drop either of them...