ramr

12 hours ago, Cali farong said:

I think Amazing Thailand is going to get a wake up call

The phone's been ringing for quite some time...and definitely before COVID started.

But a wake-up call does no good if you're a particularly deep sleeper.

None so blind as those who will not see, etc. etc.

On 10/15/2020 at 1:55 PM, Mr Meeseeks said:

Do Thais teaching Thai kids "understand learners and develop an effective pedagogy"?

Hi, I'm Mr. Meeseeks!  Look at my inconvenient question!

3 hours ago, polpott said:

They know no better.

As young and inexperienced as they are, they know enough to know something's amiss.  Students have a keen nose for hypocrisy and b*lls**t in their teachers.

25 minutes ago, 2530Ubon said:

This post (as do all my other posts on his thread) refers to foreign teachers - specifically illegal ones. We were not talking about Thai teachers or legal foreign teachers. I didn't give any inkling as to 'what the most effective first steps are' to solving this. so i'm not sure what those different ideas are. 

 

Everything has a context.  I was  pointing out the larger context that this post fits into and asserting that worrying about illegal foreign teachers in Thailand constitutes a pointless moral panic, which I have yet to see addressed by you.

So, yes, when considering this (non) issue, the Thai education system as a whole DOES matter.  

Quick question for further context: are students in Thailand currently protesting against the practices of their Western teachers or their Thai teachers?  Again, you'll probably consider this irrelevant, but for those of us who prefer the view from over the forest as opposed to amongst the trees, it does matter. 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

On 10/11/2020 at 1:34 PM, 2530Ubon said:

No, it's not irrelevant, it's actually the entire point, which has seemed to have floated right past you. A degree in any field as a bare minimum has been accepted globally as a requirement for teachers. Are the youth of Thailand not entitled to a good education with qualified teachers?

What does having a degree from your average Thai university even mean?  I have seen some of the curriculum and training of Thai teaching programs, as well as the end results in the classroom, and am not in the slightest impressed.  Keep in mind we're talking about averages and not individuals here, but I would go so far as to compare a halfway intelligent secondary school graduate from a Western country favorably to a Thai with a B.A. or even M.A., which many will think racist, but I think just underscores the sad state of Thai education.  I do believe the system has failed these people, to respond to your somewhat pointed question.  I just think we have maybe have different ideas of what the most effective first steps are.  

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Put it this way, would you allow a 22 year old with no degree, no qualifications of any kind or experience in education, to teach anything to your children?  Or how about the bar stool brigade that give teaching a shot for a semester (often they run away after collecting the first paycheck, they don't even stick out a 4 month contract). Were your school teachers unqualified and in the country primarily for a holiday? I don't think so.

Straw men, but I suppose stereotypes do come about for a reason.  I think my experience has also been different from yours.  Anyhow, your arguments against these types (and I agree with you that they are part of the problem), rest on maturity and eagerness to teach, not on having the proper paperwork.  I've seen these types as well, and more often that not, they do happen to have degrees from their home country.

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It's time Thailand woke up and moved away from window dressing white farangs gesticulating wildly, screaming to be heard above 50 students crammed in a room (30% of whom are playing with their phones) whilst pointing frequently at a useless flashcard on the board. Bring in standards and smaller class sizes.  Encourage critical thinking and move away from learning by rote.

Agreed, but it's a solution that won't work in a vacuum.  Bring these requirements and standards in for Thai teachers as well, or you're just changing the educational experience for the 4-8 hours (maximum, and that's for an English Program!) these kids are seeing the foreign teacher.  What about the other 25 or so hours where they're spending so many of their class hours watching the Thai teacher copy to the board, then copy back from the board into their notebooks?  We are what we repeatedly do, so do the math on this.  I'm not sure what constitutes "qualified" Western teachers in your mind, but even if you had your way, their effectiveness will be hugely blunted by the usual pushback and lack of peer and administrative support for real international education standards from those who are comfortable with things just the way they are and don't want to change or be made to look bad.

Anyway, very few here will disagree with you on these points; they're pretty much accepted as truisms.  So tell us something new and valuable:  HOW would you accomplish this, given the current market incentives, cultural inertia/insularity, and closed-loop corruption that prevents effective independent oversight?  I'm not claiming to have the answers, but I can tell you that rearranging some deck chairs on the Titanic won't right the ship. 

This furor over farang teaching requirements is what I would call "compliance theater," pure and simple. 
As well as a classic misdirection maneuver and a bit of a xenophobic witch hunt to boot.  Sure, it will net some people in the end we can all agree need to go, so there's some small benefit there, I guess, but there is an opportunity cost to spending government energy/time/money on this and--if the point really is to improve actual education here--it's a poor use of resources in the context of the larger problems.  It's not about education; it's about finding another way for Thailand to avoid having to look in the mirror for a little while longer.

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So many things could be done. Ensuring that the foreigners employed in schools here are actually qualified to do so is a baby step at best.

Agreed, but WHO will ensure that, and HOW will they enforce their authority?  “No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it”   --Albert Einstein.


 

On 10/9/2020 at 10:34 PM, 2530Ubon said:

Don’t you mean giving a p*s* poor education to the victims in their classrooms and a disservice to the nation they parasitically thrive off?
 

Would uncertified ‘teachers’ be allowed to teach in the west - NO

Don't compare what teacher licensing means and entails in Thailand to the west.  As impacts delivering good education, that process is largely irrelevant and fluff-filled here.  

I've seen excellent, committed teachers here without TEFL and/or degrees... and sh**ty teachers with perfect paperwork.  Not having the proper papers in this puppet show administrated by the MOE and others does not automatically mean "p**s poor education."

Teacher certification in a Western country/international schools are not what I'm talking about here.

Broadly speaking, the Thai educational complex (teachers/admin/govt.) does a far worse "disservice" to the next generation and in a much farther-reaching way than some dilletante backpackers could ever do.

On 9/26/2020 at 4:21 PM, from the home of CC said:

hence why so many countries have so many dead, they put a price on life - ghouls..

Economic downturns reliably translate into loss of life due to  loss of livelihood, increased incidence of diseases of despair like suicide and substance abuse, violent crime, malnutrition, spousal/child abuse, and other downstream effects probably too numerous to mention.  It's highly correlatable and there's even a formula you can look up for the exact ratio.

You can't seriously think the issue is as black-and-white as you frame it.

All countries put a price on life, no matter what their PR looks like.  It's unavoidable.

On 8/19/2020 at 10:40 AM, JackThompson said:

 

I also suggested he also inquire with the labor-office for a WP under Non-O - though not sure if they will do it, if he is on a "covid-extension" currently, based on some reports.  There may be 'agents' for this as well, but my experience with the Labor-Office in-person was positive (pre-covid).

If you add my experience and my best friend's experience together (3 different provinces, at least 6 different jobs/work permits between us), Labor Office has always given a work permit based on a multi-entry O by reason of marriage.  Getting a WP with a Non-O was never the issue.

Never mind, I suddenly understood that you probably meant doing the WP *first* and then the visa extension at CW would maybe yield better results than doing it in the reverse order, which is what I was initially talking about.  Labor Offices here are waaaaayyy more helpful than Immigration, I agree, and for me they've always been humane/smart enough to issue a WP end date equal to the contract end (usually 1 year), even though that will always be later than one's most current "permission to stay" stamp when on a multi-entry non-O. 

Going in to CW armed with a valid, 1 year WP seems like it would be the only way I'd have a chance of breaking down their rumored recalcitrance ...at least without resorting to an, um, indirect donation to the Immigration Retirement Fund.  Or a lawyer.

Thank you all very much for all the insights and sharing your experiences; very helpful especially to compare experiences at CW vs other immigration offices as well.  

Armed with this new information, the situation looks like what I had feared but was still hoping against:    absolutely 100% legal to do on the books (ext. of stay based on either work/marriage per Ubonjoe), but sketchy, arbitrary, and uncertain in actual practice.  I have enough info to make my decision now.  Thanks again!

Angels do walk among us, and I think Ubonjoe might be one.

8 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

You cannot change a category non-o visa to a non-b visa without leaving the country.

You could apply for a extension of stay based upon working with a non-o visa entry. 

You can also apply for a work permit and work with a non-o visa or extension of stay based upon marriage. It is also possible use the income from working to meet the 40k baht income requirement for an extension of stay based upon marriage.

 

Ubonjoe once again with the succinct and timely info.  Thank you.

The multi-entry O is a strange beast, unique among the visas in that it is subject to those every-90-days border runs, and in some senses one could argue it's not a genuinely long-term visa...which certainly seems to be the unofficial view of the officialdom in Thailand.  I'm hoping your information about O extensions would apply to the multi-entry as well, given that it doesn't appear to be well-liked by many in Immigration.  If they granted either the work or marriage extensions you describe, I'm wondering how long it would be valid for (under normal circumstances, I mean, as it would be unfair to ask you to predict what they would do in times of COVID).

Any further ideas on this?  Thanks again.

My non-O marriage multi-entry visa is running out next month, and extending it to a standard marriage visa in-country is not an option.  I live in Isaan but am interviewing in BKK, and if hired would want to move there and get a non-B for employment *without leaving the country*.  As you probably know, getting a visa out of country in Laos would be madness: 60,000-100,000 in testing/documentation/quarantine, plus 1 month lost from work in quarantine, which a potential employer wouldn't go for and wouldn't be worth it to me anyway.

1.  Anyone heard of this being done in-country recently?  As a friend "who has a friend in immigration" has told me, they are being generally more lenient with in-country visa transfers due to COVID, which does make sense.

2.  If no one knows, do you know the best way to contact the relevant immigration office in BKK to get, well, I guess something at least approaching an answer, before I go to BKK?  

Thanks in advance for any help or advice...

14 hours ago, thailand49 said:

 

HAVE I GOT YOU ATTENTION MR. CHAN O ( AKA MR. P.M. ) NEED YOUR ATTENTION IN THIS MATTER!

I'm sure he hears you, what with you posting *in English* on Thaivisa of all places and taking the additional surefire measure of using *all caps*. 

You can rest easy now.

23 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

How is my first paragraph nonsense? I have clearly shown that any country with a small population has an automatic advantage if one is only considering per-capita testing numbers. The United States has the third largest population in the world. 
 

I just automatically discount the tiny countries as outliers when I look at the per-capita tables, so I get what you mean.  I think you explained it better just now than in the previous long-ass paragraph, that's all.   However, that "unfair" (?) advantage should be expected diminish over time--as more and more people get tested--which is why I mentioned that a couple months had already elapsed.  And the more time goes on, the less your "advantage" argument will hold water.

23 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

If per-capita is the measurement we should use, then why is everyone so focused on the United States’ higher total death numbers, when per-capita, they have less deaths than four of the five largest European countries?

 

The slow response of Trump and his administration is a different argument. Currently, the USA leads the world in total tests. In order for them to take the per-capita lead away from Faroe Islands, they would need to have tested almost 60 million people; more than the top 20 countries’ total tests combined. 
 

It's not the *only* one we should use, and we need to make adjustments and look at data intelligently, but it's a better starting point than total number of tests.

I would have no problem if Trump were to mention both statistics, along with the pros and cons of each statistic, as we have done here.

What I mainly object to are the big <deleted> "Winning!  #1!  USA!!" banners and photo op nonsense when the data is--and I'm being charitable here-- ambiguous at best.

How can you not feel like your intelligence is being insulted when you see something like this?