evercurious

Sad to hear that story, it sounds really arbitrary and not based on realistic assessment of your situation. (like gangster politics running the show!)

Dead right on all points above Impulse. (Not that all cases in Western countries are investigated with no cover ups), but by and large what you say is true and those practicalities you mention need to be emphasised for the sake of loved ones back home who pick up the pieces and work out all details of claims etc. Too many farang deaths here instantly written up as suicide over Thai wife or girlfriend. Who was there when he fell from the balcony and who really knows? Its too easy to take it as given, but difficult to prove foul play. In all events, coroners' inquiries often leave 'open verdicts' on such cases, depending on the nature of injuries etc. and that impacts greatly on all the above factors to be dealt with regarding estate, insurance etc.

"The Economist seems to believe that a democracy means once a politician is elected, the laws no longer apply to them. "

This point is very much about the essence of what happens in western democracies as well as here - once elected, their status becomes

harder to question and, rarely are mass actions taken against elected governments in the way they have been in Thailand

recently.

As Kerry noted, judicial underpinning is essential to help elected parties become truly accepted and a part of the society's fabric.

However, things pointed out by the critics of Yinluck and her brother's former governments are things rarely pointed out in Western

democracies, even though they happen there too (people not informed about the true nature of what they vote for, receiving unequal

shares of social benefits like healthcare, education, corruption in choice of candidates)

In the West the discrimination is more finely tuned, subtle and difficult to identify, but still more difficult to speak against on levels such as

that happening in Thailand at present.

It is clearly not an option to make a schematic style compromise as suggested by The Economist, when polarisation is a genuine representation

of differing points of view and compromise would indicate simply 'taking the guts out of politics' as they really are here.

@LivinginKata, I kknow of a case where a Thai woman was sentenced to (and served) 25 years for attempted murder and aggravated robbery.

The owner of the house was from US but victim was his Thai wife. Luckily it was easy to trace her and they wasted no time in serving sentence.

That was 25 years ago, though, so I don't know what the situation is now for Thai murders. I think there is still strictness, if they are caught of course,

and there may be bribes to reduce sentences. I heard of someone being released and criminal record erased for a rape sentence, just because of

payment by a relative.

Wilcopops - Who are you cautioning about knowing or not knowing the meaning of PC? I don't see any clear definition of your own authority on this matter attached here in your posts

Would someone kindly explain what is the Thai version of P,C. and when, if ever does it come into operation?

Most likely there is racism against Indians and some others, but we must also add foreign women to the list of people inviting discriminatory responses.

Today I went into a 7-Eleven in Jomtien, where usually large numbers of westerners go, and was met by a a 'smirking' gossipy reaction from a boy apparently

employed there. He failed to say any greeting or ask what I wanted, then when I asked for something he stared into space.

(I understand enough Thai to get the gist of some conversations though I cannot speak it)

A lady also at the counter tried to rectify things by finding what I'd asked for and serving me. Meanwhile, he continued insistently in his slanderous gossip trying to override her attempts to straighten things out.

Then I walked around to buy something else, paid and waited to see how he would speak to other customers arriving. The next customers happened to be Thai men, who were greeted with a warm 'good day' or some such. I was astounded and tried to point out the discrepancy, whereupon he tried to ratchet up his 'gossip levels' and rant against me

to them also. I was genuinely astounded, as no other 7-Eleven in this area has been like that.

I wonder whether some other foreigner who speaks good Thai would be willing to go back there with me and ask him to repeat or explain what he was saying?

Any suggestions welcome to take further action on this incident please.

Yes I am sure you're right. I know of other black people who work in Thailand, some very articulate and professional (in other fields such as sport), but still find this discrimination. One guy said a hotel owner told him, "We don't usually let blacks in, they cause too much trouble"! This was however, after having let him in there. He and others have said they got cold receptions when staying in places where they were formally accepted.

I guess it used to be like that in UK, but nowadays, definitely the case that you have more chance of being treated without prejudice in a white culture like that - or ex apartheid South Africa - than in Thailand and other parts of Asia. In teaching though I have seen some black people do well and be accepted, possibly more in Science subjects than in English language teaching, but anyway they had to prove themselves.

Yet, as stated in other posts, they will discriminate also against white Western teachers, in favour of Thais and also expect us to prove ourselves more than the teachers from Thailand who have permanent posts.

Yes Hardened Soul hit the main point here. Men don't take the trouble to get to know women who are a little more distant, or intellectually complex if they can buy sex no questions asked for less than 1000 Baht. That is where the problem lies and why - western women may be ignored more - Thai women clearly see them as a threat to the easy to get 'smiley' approach they use to take over Western men, the latter are fooled by their apparently less aggressive, more submissive approach. Then one day they wake up one day to find their bank accounts emptied and the 'girl' disappeared - obviously not all cases go that way, but it seems generally that the basis of dealings with Western men by Thai women is quite linked to material security and the 'good guy' image, as compared to Thai men who treat them as less than people.

Can someone explain please what is a 777/2551 order and under what circumstances are they issued?  Does it only happen at borders and airports or are they issued in advance

then produced when foreigner is leaving through airport?  

Impression by some Western tourists that it is "carnival like" at protest is not making a sham out of serious politics; well not necessarily anyway. It is an impression which

in Europe and USA harks back to 1960/70s images. Woodstock and other festivals and the music of singers like Bob Dylan merged politics with hippyism and was expressed via such mass gatherings. Only they were meant to stress non-violence and here too, that has been an intention. Such events are not seen by history as non- events politically. On the contrary, they formed a part of major political shifts in thinking and can do so here too. For Thailand there is an important shift going on - away from the recurring risk of military coups taking over government.

There can be acceptance of new ideas via cultural media rather than simply political party voting. These perspectives are being expressed in Thailand, with a different backdrop, different

history - and without a lot of the baggage of the the past European urban bourgeois history. Good luck if people want to do it this way, and it can evolve in its own uniquely Thai way.

Nothing about democracy here has to necessary ape what has happened in the West, where 'supposedly' people have democratic rights. Do they really have any more than here? To begin

with, many are completely limited in their perspective to the idea of a ballot box, which really is sham in UK for example. once every 5 years, people get to put a cross on a ballot paper, usually to

choose between 2 or 3 parties they know not too much about, who all work roughly around the 'centre' between right and left wing politics. As the joke says 'whoever you vote for, the governement still gets in'. Let Thailand try for something a bit more creative if it can.......

It is certainly true that anyone who reads and writes English is entirely welcome to post on T.Visa. There is no distinction between infiltrators and other posters, however, one should be alert to an obvious factor that - anytime - not just since protests started - there is a chance your views may be observed by interested parties, other than ex-pats venting their spleens on various issues.

This is not such a big deal considering all emails and internet sites are open to worse - witness the case of Google and Facebook being brought before

the Courts about disclosure of private information to anyone from advertisers to spy agencies - and the law is trying to enforce restrictions on that, but with great difficulty. So the case of Thai Visa is really far more urbane and humanistic, one would hope, though when there are discussions involving prejudices or racism, let those who express ideas be willing to explain and back up their opinions fully!

@ Jay Sata

Tourists are like birds........

Thailand has enjoyed tourism just like Spain and Greece who thought it would never end.

The new playground is always on the horizon.

Very good point and one which perhaps few ex-pats have been concerned with till now - things could shake up pretty radically after the playing out of current political currents, not that long termers would automatically leave, but things could lose a lot of their 'feelgood' factor here

The victim was Italian, usually Italians are more sociable than Anglophiles, so why do you want to turn him into an old pervert? They offered to take him home - well Thais ride 3 or 4 to a bike and - as for the baseball bat - they could have picked it up along the way somewhere -

owner's house or friend's cafe etc, - they wanted to rob the tourist, so their minds were turning over to arrange weapon, nothing hard to understand there. Oh and yes, recent

publicity that they can almost kill someone and get away with paying 500 Baht fine - it happened to me that a man hit me in the street with witnesses and only got given a 500 Baht fine,

even that only happened due to my persistence with the police, demanding a translator etc.

Sounds like this could have been years ago, when the details of all his particular ofences were no too analysed, just the work issue. If he was married to a Thai, that could have blurred visa overstay issue. If not, I heard of plenty of Westerners with similar stories but over 10 years ago.

Things have changed pretty much, but it could still be arbitrary from what one hears.

Most of the land visa runs are with minivans, which they overload to get more money, so luggage space too little and, as a Westerner I am taller and more uncomfortable than local people in such vehicles. They may also drive badly and mess you around, even changing van on the way sometimes - which includes unexpected waits. Yes - all geared to getting there and back in minimum turnaround time and maximum profit.

It can be more reliable to take ordinary bus or train, even cheaper - so you don't have to take flying as the only option to 'cowboy' style organised minivan runs.

You should try reading the report before making statements as wrong as that. EF has only been tracking data since 2007. Thailand actually shows the 10th best improvement in English ability not a decline as you mention. It is pretty staggering that you got it so wrong. The report also comments that South Korean students spend an average of 20,000 hours each between kindergarden and university learning English yet their proficiency is trending down.Data below is from the report

Turkey +11.86

Kazakhstan +11.73

Hungary +9.61

Indonesia +8.66

Vietnam +7.95

Poland +7.63

India +7.03

Russia +5.29

Peru +5.25

Thailand +5.03

United Arab Emirates +4.84

Spain +4.50

Colombia +4.30

Austria +4.08

Singapore* +0.27

South Korea -0.73

Hong Kong -0.90

This list includes countries where English is or has been 1st language (Hong Kong,) - so measurable improvements would not really appear - where minor reductions probably indicate more migrant workers from non-English speaking countries - and the resurgence of Mandarin in Hong Kong. Still the survey is valid and reinforced by other studies.

ASEAN listing showed Thailand as 9 out of 10 - Cambodia at 10 - which was also out of date by then as Cambodia much improved recently.

However in relative terms, Thailand seems to be worsening - as in dubbing foreign films which it did not do so much10 years ago.

There is now a great appearance of trying to organise English learning for 2015, but with hopeless organisation and last minute desperation.

I have taught in other Asian countries, such as Indonesia where progress has been far quicker over the last few years. Also China has steamed ahead in the last 3 or 4 years, leaving it in a different category to Thailand, when it was once even less open to English speaking;

While it is true that English people might try harder to learn foreign languages of countries they go to, the point is that Thai is not spoken anywhere else, so there's little motivation. People living in China for eg, often find more motivation and interest to try Mandarin.

Of course, Thais need English to help them move about in life, jobs, world travel and education. That is why they need to adopt a better

attitude - not just to please a few wandering tourists or retirees. Also as stated, people earning money in tourism or related fields are often far better at English than university students. If it's a woman with English boyfriend/spouse, then they usually spend time in the country (UK or US/OZ) so clearly they are way ahead and more motivated.

If it is bar workers, then they need the immediacy of conversational skills, on the ground so to speak, therefore abandoning any 'bookish' ways they may have been badly taught in earlier schools.

Many Thai teachers seem to think they do pupils a favour by 'spoon feeding' them in English lessons - such as giving all instructions in Thai and even the answers, just so they can translate or parrot the right words, with no further incentive to fluency.

Even if the teacher speaks the native language of the students, the ESL method always exorts to try explanations in English directly, so that the exposure to listening will eventually improve their comprehension - even if it takes longer to communicate.

Someone is kidding about no overstay in Western countries, perhaps they don't know UK - there are many thousands of people who not only overstay, but 'slip through the net' by way of name chaanges, false asylum claims, confusion about family and relatives' names, nationality - you name it - it has been around in England for several decades and far too late to pin down individuals for many cases.

So if it was Ranong, I assume the person came straight back to Thailand with a 14 day stamp - is that correct?

Oh come on, surely you don't think "British Labour Rights activist" means some nationalist only interested in rights for British

workers? He is a labour rights activist who happens to be British, and has attracted support from world wide Human rights groups

for taking on the corruption of 'sweat shop' exploiters who are nowhere more populous that in poor Asian regions.

As for defamation, it is a trend of western style litigation - not imposed by influence of Westerners here, but rather the idea

the rich and corrupt can buy their way out of liability with a "have money - get out of my face or I'll sue" mentality.

The last post said long overstayer left Thailand recently and simply paid fine at the airport: that goes against what I heard

from a lawyer - who said that now one should go to Immigration office first to pay fine plus THB1900 for a 7 day extension before trying

to leave.......Which is better? Is it safer the latter way? I read that a new law in force since 2012 imposing detention if o/stay

exceeds 42 days.

However, comments here seem to show it is not being enforced very much, or as stated by lawyer, only if person has been 'guilty'

of other things..? Not sure what that means either in specific Thai legal terms - prosecuted offences or just a dispute with a landlord about

a broken window for example!