newworks

Looks like the stakes are being raised considerably. Time to declare a state of emergency and call the army in to handle the situation. Of course that could be a huge gamble for Samak as no one knows which way they would jump. They could disperse the protesters and restore the country to order, or they could join with the protesters and turn against the elected government. Ultimately, the future of democracy in Thailand is in the hands of those who control the army.

I'm puzzled by this statement. There is no democracy in Thailand (though the government in power is as close as you'll get) and PAD, despite their name, certainly do not advocate democracy. Why would they, after all, because in a free election, as has been demonstrated, they won't get in. So, their solution is to appoint themselves to government and maintain the status quo, i.e. protect their own interests. Those brown people from Issan are too stupid to vote (translation - they won't vote for PAD) so disenfranchise them. Can't see much sign of democracy there.

Anyway, any westerner knows that whether it's Britain, France or the USA (and of course, all the rest of the so called western democracies), 80% of the electorate either don't vote or don't have a clue, so Thailand is no different. Just because the stupidy of people does not suit you, you do not have the right to exclude them from the process. You could always try education, but that apparently doesn't work either; the electorate in the US were stupid enough, twice, to vote for Dubya, who is, to put it as politely as I can, as thick as a brick. I didn't see the (rightfully) indignant self proclaimed intelligencia in the US snarling up DC and demanding a Government of nominees. Samak, like Bush, might be corrupt and might not be to your liking, but his party was elected to power. That's democracy. It is the will of the majority, even if it is a majority of one. So, there will always be a lot of pissed off people. Tough titty. Go back to work and grow up. Anybody who thinks PAD will be better is probably a person who would vote for George Bush. Except with PAD, they wouldn't get the chance.

ummmm... i voted for george bush and if you look at my previous posts, you will see that i am very clearly against the so-called "PAD" and what they are doing.

piss-poor analogy. try again.

That's intelligent. "Piss poor analogy, try again".

a. My post was about democracy, not your beliefs or prior voting patterns. This thread alone is about nine million pages so I'm not going to bugger about looking up your previous posts especially when they are irrelevant to my point.

b. Look up the meaning of analogy.

c. Perhaps, for one having both the wisdom to vote for Dubya and the guts to actually admit to it, you can explain exactly what you mean by "piss poor analogy.

d. I never did personalize this, you did.

a. you said "Anybody who thinks PAD will be better is probably a person who would vote for George Bush". i offered myself as proof that you're wrong.

b. a·nal·o·gy (-nl-j)

n. pl. a·nal·o·gies

1.

a. Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.

b. A comparison based on such similarity. See Synonyms at likeness.

2. Biology Correspondence in function or position between organs of dissimilar evolutionary origin or structure.

3. A form of logical inference or an instance of it, based on the assumption that if two things are known to be alike in some respects, then they must be alike in other respects.

yep, that's what you were doing.

c. i proudly admit that i cast my vote for bush in 2000 and, furthermore, that i will vote for mccain in november. it's a piss-poor analogy both because of a. and b. above and because bush has absolutely nothing to do with this mess.

d. i didn't take it personally. i just told you that it was a bad analogy.

The PR value of the picture of the policeman pointing a rifle at a protestor at point blank range is very high

Indeed it is...

The rifle is behind the persons head as you can see. The person is looking at the barrel from the side as it is pointed at something behind him. Nice try.

The rifle is there in the picture in the first place and I highly doubt the safety is on. There's no defending it by any stretch of the imagination.

another...

Try taking over the Whitehouse and see if you dont get a weapon shoved up your nose.

Do these PAD people honestly think they should be allowed to take over government house without some resistance from the authorities?

They provoke violence and then cry they are victims of brutality.

exactly. whether the PAD supporters here want to admit it or not, the current gov't is a democratically-elected one (just like thaksin's was!) and as such has every right to quell these protests and THROW THEM IN JAIL! they have taken over government property by force.

they are thugs. period.

Looks like the stakes are being raised considerably. Time to declare a state of emergency and call the army in to handle the situation. Of course that could be a huge gamble for Samak as no one knows which way they would jump. They could disperse the protesters and restore the country to order, or they could join with the protesters and turn against the elected government. Ultimately, the future of democracy in Thailand is in the hands of those who control the army.

I'm puzzled by this statement. There is no democracy in Thailand (though the government in power is as close as you'll get) and PAD, despite their name, certainly do not advocate democracy. Why would they, after all, because in a free election, as has been demonstrated, they won't get in. So, their solution is to appoint themselves to government and maintain the status quo, i.e. protect their own interests. Those brown people from Issan are too stupid to vote (translation - they won't vote for PAD) so disenfranchise them. Can't see much sign of democracy there.

Anyway, any westerner knows that whether it's Britain, France or the USA (and of course, all the rest of the so called western democracies), 80% of the electorate either don't vote or don't have a clue, so Thailand is no different. Just because the stupidy of people does not suit you, you do not have the right to exclude them from the process. You could always try education, but that apparently doesn't work either; the electorate in the US were stupid enough, twice, to vote for Dubya, who is, to put it as politely as I can, as thick as a brick. I didn't see the (rightfully) indignant self proclaimed intelligencia in the US snarling up DC and demanding a Government of nominees. Samak, like Bush, might be corrupt and might not be to your liking, but his party was elected to power. That's democracy. It is the will of the majority, even if it is a majority of one. So, there will always be a lot of pissed off people. Tough titty. Go back to work and grow up. Anybody who thinks PAD will be better is probably a person who would vote for George Bush. Except with PAD, they wouldn't get the chance.

ummmm... i voted for george bush and if you look at my previous posts, you will see that i am very clearly against the so-called "PAD" and what they are doing.

piss-poor analogy. try again.

Here is my song for Samak and his henchmen...not original, but it will have to do

NANANANA NANANANA HEYYEYEY GOOOODBYE

Power to the People

No Justice no Peace...Samak out of Thailand please

Thank you to all my Union Brothers for helping in this struggle against a totally corrupt government

yes! and thank you, union brothers, for very probably paving the way for another period of martial law and an incompetent "interim gov't" that will screw the economy and everything else up all over again, until we can have more elections that will be contested and have demostrations against all over again.

thank you, brothers, from the bottom of my heart! power to the middle- and upper-class bangkok people!

Question to Younghusband and some other PAD-critics/sceptics who have written the movement off umpteen times in the last 6 months, describing them as "marginalised" and a spent force. Now the PAD has held Government House for 3 days and basically paralysed this utterly corrup govt, while Thai Airways, SRT and other unions are coming out in favour of PAD , are you prepared to reassess your position?

Yes, it is time to reassess our position in light of recent events. I would say that our previous assessment that PAD members were primarily made up of scum with a smidgeon of naive fools thrown in was, looking back on things, far to generous. They are far worse!

i couldn't have said that any better!

do the thai people want democracy or not? i think that the answer is clear. someday perhaps the middle- and upper-class people in this country will be mature enough to accept the results of an election, but they obviously are not up to that level of sophistication yet.

Getting elected does not mean politicians have carte blanche and are free to break the law. People are protesting because the present government is corrupt.

As, I am sure, will be the next one...

exactly! which brings us right back to:

do the thai people want democracy or not? i think that the answer is clear. someday perhaps the middle- and upper-class people in this country will be mature enough to accept the results of an election, but they obviously are not up to that level of sophistication yet.

I just watched the police beat up a read cross worker and some women without provocation on TV

What is a "read cross worker"?

This government is toast, no matter if you right wing captitalists like it or not LOL

What is a "captitalists" ?

It's too bad the PPP followers can't get together and stage a counter protest. With them actually having a life and having to work for a living it seems they don't have the free time to protest like the fat priviledged PAD.

What does "priviledged" mean ?

do the thai people want democracy or not? i think that the answer is clear. someday perhaps the middle- and upper-class people in this country will be mature enough to accept the results of an election, but they obviously are not up to that level of sophistication yet. they intend continue whining and protesting until they get the government that they want; not the one that the MAJORITY has voted into power (over and over again, i might add). it's truly sad to watch...

all of them should be rounded up and jailed ASAP for trespassing and disturbing the peace.

Was he black? A friend of mine, who applied for a NON-B yesterday, at Savanakhet, was told that they don't issue visas to black people.

if this is true, it is SERIOUSLY f**king pathetic. beyond idiotic. what a joke!

muslims or thaksin supporters, but i seriously doubt the latter.

wow, yeah, he really was bad. and we all know that every one of his predecessors and opponents are paragons of virtue and accountability.

and now everything is going to be fine because that terrible man has been chased away, martial law has been imposed, poilitical gatherings are banned, the constitution has been torn up, and thai democracy has been, uh... what IS the status of thai democracy right now, anyway? oh YEAH; it's being RESTORED!

i feel a lot better. and i am sure that the millions of thais who voted him into office TWICE feel much better, too. mai pen rai!

From the content of this thread one might get the impression that Thaksin and the TRT henchmen were the first to be involved in corruption.Actually Thaksin's sin was not so much corruption but altering the playing field to suit his business interests.Although there is a hanging mob on this forum,the unvarnished truth is that Thaksin was a genuinely skilled businessman, not just a pig at the trough.Anyway any long term observer of the Thai business/political scene knows the problem can be found in every quarter, and I mean EVERY quarter.So I have some doubts whether any investigation now will be vigorously pursued, unless of course its just going to be a political witch hunt.

yes! everyone here talks like thaksin invented corruption in thailand. what is with you people?

i said it before and i will say it again: thaksin wasn't ousted because he was any more or less "corrupt" than anyone else that has held that office in the history of this country; that is a load of crap from the powers-that-be and a convenient excuse to oust him and emasculate his election-winning party.

he was ousted for 2 reasons: 1) he out-smarted and out-politicked a lot of powerful people who don't like to lose, and 2) his reaching out to the poor masses upcountry simulataneously made him a democratic success (which certain people here obviously can't live with although they pay such great lip-service to the concept of "restoring democracy") and alienated the outnumbered upper- and middle-classes.

don't hate the player; hate the game.

Khun Thanong of The Nation newspaper reported that the reasons given for the coup by General Sonthi were divisions in the country, corruption and lese majeste. Hence, there is more to it than just what you say, but given sensitivities, it can't be discussed openly.

right. not openly. and my biggest concern right now is how the overthrow by the ruling class of the guy that all the poor people liked is going to help heal these "divisions".

From the content of this thread one might get the impression that Thaksin and the TRT henchmen were the first to be involved in corruption.Actually Thaksin's sin was not so much corruption but altering the playing field to suit his business interests.Although there is a hanging mob on this forum,the unvarnished truth is that Thaksin was a genuinely skilled businessman, not just a pig at the trough.Anyway any long term observer of the Thai business/political scene knows the problem can be found in every quarter, and I mean EVERY quarter.So I have some doubts whether any investigation now will be vigorously pursued, unless of course its just going to be a political witch hunt.

yes! everyone here talks like thaksin invented corruption in thailand. what is with you people?

i said it before and i will say it again: thaksin wasn't ousted because he was any more or less "corrupt" than anyone else that has held that office in the history of this country; that is a load of crap from the powers-that-be and a convenient excuse to oust him and emasculate his election-winning party.

he was ousted for 2 reasons: 1) he out-smarted and out-politicked a lot of powerful people who don't like to lose, and 2) his reaching out to the poor masses upcountry simulataneously made him a democratic success (which certain people here obviously can't live with although they pay such great lip-service to the concept of "restoring democracy") and alienated the outnumbered upper- and middle-classes.

don't hate the player; hate the game.

US cuts off millions in military aid to Thailand

As ever the America appears to be a "Fair Weather Friend"! I cannot help wondering what G.W.'s reaction would be if Thailand were to cancel it's agreement allowing U.S. bases here in Thailand. The current "Big Brother" attitude of it's incumbant president, certainly worries me. What do other forum members think?

i think you are clueless. the u.s. cut off aid because the u.s. supports DEMOCRACY and this country just ousted a TWICE-ELECTED PRIME MINISTER. get it now?

i expected to see all kinds of idiotic reponses to this topic and therefore didn't even look at it until now. thanks for not keeping me waiting and giving me what i expected in the very first post.

so, thaksin arranged for this alleged "preemptive" confrontation between the forestry dept. and the anti-thaksin protestors to happen while he was out of town, and also prepared for the possibility of it being unsuccessful and him being overthrown, and so that's why he had all the suitcases with money in them? ######, he IS sneaky!

"junta". good word.

i have a couple of questions; forgive me if they are stupid ones:

1) why do all these poor people suddenly have to return money that they borrowed from the from the gov't.?

2) why have those loans (seemingly) suddenly been cancelled altogether?

and

3) what does it have to with the rest of the article?

just wondering...

Are they Brits? Perhaps, and it's true that the forum is over-represented with the scummier kind of PattayaBrit (fat,unsuccesful, indifferently educated ex-sex tourists now mainly visa runners saddled with a Thai "family" and often with a snub nosed ex hooker as a "wife").These people rage at Thaksin and indeed at any success or wealth legitimately aquired to compensate for their own depressing lifestyle and non-achievement.Not sure however whether the anti-wealth prejudice is reflected among Brits at home, not to the same extent anyway since Thatcher.

In any case whatever Thaksin's faults - and they are many and I'm glad he's gone-it's hard to sustain the charge his wealth was acquired illegitimately.Indeed by the standards of his predecessors he is quite clean in that respect.

exactly. which is why all this is a joke. thaksin was removed not because he is any more or less corrupt than any other person who has held that office, but because he outsmarted a lot of people who don't like to be outsmarted, and because his real power-base is among poor people who are unable to launch any kind of counter-offensive to this coup. like it or not, folks, this was a military coup deposing a twice-elected prime minister. what you think of how he made his money or how much of it there is, or if he allegedly "bought" an election is IRRELEVANT! do you want every person in this country's vote to count, or not? do you want poor rural people in this country's votes to count as much as bangkok people's, or not? that's the question that really matters right now, especially because this coup happened when elections were already scheduled not even 2 months from now, and now have been postponed "for a year".

So Pojaman fled to Singapore the night of the coup was sand in our eyes?

Someone is lying and distributing false information.

Not surprisingly, but we all believe what is posted here

thank god someone has the cojones to say that.

Completely expected, and completely wrong. Thaksin probably did obtain a significant amount in shady if not outright illegal ways, but confiscating the property just because someone is out of political favor sends a very wrong message about Thailand. There should be legal procedings questioning the origin of property, but they should apply to all people in or close to politics, not just to Thaksin. Of course, snow in Bangkok is more likely than this...

let the tarring-and-feathering begin! nothing like an accusee-in-exile to make a show-trial easy. can't wait to hear about all the horrible stuff he's done.

well, that's a pretty unbiased piece of reporting. thanks for sharing.

Let this workout for the best of the country and its people.

Regardless of the level of corruption of the government, coups do not contribute the stability or democracy of a country, on the contrary.

exactly!

Thank you Commander Sondhi and the DRC

You have my full support to restore the country back to a real Thai democracy.

But will they? Often when people get a taste for power, they are more than a little reluctant to relinquish it.

Col. M. I understand your comments, but Commander Sondhi is a professional trooper who has served the country well he isn't likely to retain the power for himself. He is now in a position along with other commanders ( Democratic Reform Comm.) to give the people their choice. It won't happen tomorrow, but soon.

For the other comment made by some meathead on Thai democracy vs USA, etc.... Thai Democracy is always in flux ( maturity) and keep the UK, US and AU out of it. We have more freedom here than most other democratic countries.

Let this workout for the best of the country and its people.

Thanks Commander!

what was wrong with the choice that the people made in the last two elections, or the choice that was scheduled to be made in the upcoming elections, before these people seized power in order to "give the people their choice"? democracy and election results aren't like a set of clothes that you can just change when they don't suit your fancy anymore.

Lets not see this topic degenerate into a discussion about US politics please.

totster

yes, please! there are plenty of other forums for that.

RIP democracy in thailand, once again! i don't know whether to laugh or to cry. elected leader ousted by the army and the constitution revoked. same old song and dance... too bad; i was hoping that stuff like this was a thing of the past.

With 5 pages of posts, I'm surprised no one yet has put forth the question of why now. I'm betting that this is a response to the idiot Karr of Jon Bonet Ramsey fame.

Anyone disagree?

Agree of course. Also its election season and hassling foreigners is a no lose decision politically. If this is partly about English teachers, it really does need to be easier for teachers to get work permits or there won't be nearly enough English teachers, now that this loophole is being closed.

I still think there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with a person staying indefinitely on a 30 day stamps or tourist visas as long as they are not doing anything else illegal. My understanding is that in the Philippines, that is what most expats are doing. They just pay a periodic fee to immigration and must exit and re-enter once annually. Why persecute people about this? Why not just go after criminals based on the crimes rather than their visa strategy? I think this is a real shame.

The pool of farangs in Thailand on non-long term visas is large. No money from people with 30 day stamps? I bought an expensive condo with one of those stamps in my passport and I know I am not the only one. Also consider the pool of people who eventually do settle on long term visas has got to start somewhere! That pool often comes from the pool of people testing the waters on shorter term visas such as stamps and tourist visas.

The overall result of this is a less fun Thailand. Its funny. Singapore is becoming more fun, Thailand less so.

interesting post. cheers

agreed. i'd love to go into a rant about how a country with real good government and an educated populace are long-term far more stable and "fun-friendly" than a country with so much endemic corruption and disparities between rich and poor and city and country folk, but i will refrain because it's off-topic and i also don't feel like sparring with all the people who will take huge offense at the suggestion.