RuamRudy

42 minutes ago, Red Forever said:

Hope he's ok. Brit's at their best.

On another subject: I was warned by a moderator for the use of the words "rubber jonny" yet the word p*ss is allowed twice on this subject.

Consistency please guys.

I am guessing that the warning was because you used it as a dig at the username of another poster. 

12 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Well, among the ways I think you might be off here is that you seem to assume that 1) Palestinians will (eventually) want Western values.  I don't think that's a given.  And think there is plenty of reasons to assume Palestinians, and many other cultures, ARE INDEED "different from the rest of us."  Heck, WE'RE "different from the rest of us."  There is no 100% consensus in the West on what values are right and good for society.  The idea that the Islamic world, or other world cultures, want Western values is on its face wrong.  2) And you can see from my other responses that I completely and totally reject a simplistic assignment of blame to this conflict, so I reject the premise of "the question."

Why should whether a people subscribe to 'western values' be the arbiter of whether they should be relived of oppression, especially when, as you admit, the very notion of 'western values' is subjective? There are plenty of countries that reject 'western values' but live in peace, indeed in collaboration with, the west. 

32 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Not sure of the relevance?  But sure I'll answer.  A long a complicated history that involved social, philosophical, and religious values -- the Judeo-Christian tradition, the Enlightenment, Marxism, the American and French revolutions... many many things, some in opposition to each other.

 

Did that help?

It certainly did. It shows that you recognise that renaissance are not overnight, spontaneous events. They come through the freedom of individuals to act and think independently. 

Fundamentally, we all have the same basic needs and desires. When it boils down to it, there is zero reason to assume that Palestinians are and different to the rest of us. 

The question therefore is, should we continue to allow Israel to oppress, dispossess and dehumanise them because we don't like the people in charge of them, or should we recognise that they have a fundamental right to the same freedoms we enjoy?

Admittedly, there will be issues along the way. Generations of anger at how Israel and the world has abused them cannot be washed away in an instant, but with support from the rest of the world, hopefully a prosperous and peaceful Palestine can return.

16 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

If they believe installing Hamas as an internationally recognized government will lead to such things as liberal Western social values... well, it's hard to know what to say about that.

What led to liberal western values? So you think that they have always been there? 

31 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

I guess they don't see the sad irony that their previous Taoseach (sp) would have been killed the second he set foot in Gaza or the west bank...

Or maybe they recognise that the first step to becoming an inclusive society is to become a free society? It is barely 30 years since same-sex activity was decriminalised in Ireland - the west might be leading the way in that respect but this is a relatively new phenomenon. 

4 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

 

 

As for rejoining the EU, just like Scottish Independence that ship has sailed. 

Every demographic below 65yo + is in favour of rectifying this colossally stupid error. It surely has to come - we will return to Europe.

29 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Since you raised the issue of lies and corruption though, I haven't heard from Sturgeon much lately...

And

30 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Whataboutism at it's finest. 

No-one holds a candle to you. 

Sturgeon is history - just like the Tory party are going to be for the next 2 GEs at least. Hopefully that's long enough to reverse the damage done by the racists and allow Britain to return to the EU, albeit on much poorer terms.

7 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   I was being rather sarcastic .

Like, who you personally know is irrelevant .

* I know one nice Palestinian , that means they are all nice* kind of thing 

Believe me, I was being equally facetious.

6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  How about any Israelis ?

Do you know any Israelis ?

What are those Israelis like that you know ?

I spent a week on an Australian live-aboard with a couple of Israelis where we dived on the great barrier reef together - good lads too, more open to a beer than my Palestinian colleagues but no less or more decent or honourable as individuals from the interactions I enjoyed with them. What's your point?

22 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Palestinians only get treated the way they do because they keep attacking Israel 

I don't agree that the flow of evil either started with the Palestinians or that it's only one way. But we are where we are - we need to find a way to break the cycle of hatred and bitterness and violence in both sides.

I believe that my point still stands - if Israel had offered a means of negotiating a fair and reasonable resolution I am sure that most Palestinians would wish to pursue it. 

Admittedly, I don't know many Palestinians but the ones I do know are no different to any other people I know in terms of inherent goodness and decency.

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

 

This is a different situation to the troubles in Ireland and is incomparable 

   Both people want the same land though . 

Both Israelis and Palestine want Jerusalem and neither side will budge on that 

I fully agree - while there is no doubt that the Irish people have suffered at the hands of the British, their suffering and their humiliation is nothing compared to what Israel has rained down on the Palestinians for decades. While I won't condone violence in any form, I often wonder how my views might have been shaped had I been forced to endure that which the Palestinians have had to endure.

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Its based on Palestinians constantly attacking Israel for the last 80 years and they wont stop until they get what they want 

Not every Irish person fought against the British or even condoned the actions of the IRA but I am sure that many more supported and still support a negotiated return to proper Irish borders. 

Likewise, if a peaceful means of negotiating a fair and just resolution was available to Palestinians, I have no doubt that the majority would seek that route.

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Palestinians cannot be trusted with their own state , they will wage war against Israel first chance they get .

   Israel knows this and doesn't want a war with them 

While that statement is based upon nothing other than your own prejudice, I must agree that if a country was suddenly to emancipate a people who's necks it had been standing on for decades while it systematically abused them and dispossessed them of their lands, I too would be wary that chickens would come home to roost.

1 hour ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Yet the youth tend to squander al the vastness of those opportunities on drugs and social media in order to feel good... name one good accounting of the youth brigade in today's world that is bettering the world.

Youth is wasted on the young; a phrase repeated since the began.

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Automation is stripping out jobs and has been doing for a long while.

 

I am sure that most of us can remember the days of travel agents and record shops peppering the high street, just a couple of examples of businesses which largely disappeared due to technology. Yet we don't have whole generations of potential travel agents aimlessly looking for a fulfilling future. Things simply change and adapt. They always have and they always will.

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Oh, the envy of some people..........

Do you not wish for your children's and grandchildren talents and abilities to be recognised without prejudice? Why do you think that they should have to be treated as lesser because you (presumably) aren't aristocracy?

4 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

In their private 40-page plan, the advisers argued that the growing threats from countries like China need to be addressed by strengthening the Armed Forces.

What an idiot. The threat from a country like China is economic and technological, not military. Looks like the MIC has gotten their claws into the British government as well.

And make the prospect of a career in the armed forces desirable and without restriction or limit depending upon status. Little Lord Fauntleroy shouldn't be guaranteed a commission because his father is a Wykehamist while a more capable and creative comprehensive lad has to tug the forelock for all his days in service.