Ajahnski

Thank you, UbonJoe.

I appreciate your help.

I need to catch up on the 1,001 changes that have been made to Thai Immigration in the last 6 months and would appreciate any help.  I know they are limiting Visa on Arrival now.  I was told when I got my last 30-day stamp (at a land crossing) that I couldn't get any more until June of this year (2018).  A South African colleague that I work with said that he's gone to Thailand 4 times in the last year and had no problem with VoA at all.  He thinks the difference is that he was going into 

I'm currently working in Vietnam, and need to do a border hop into Thailand.  I'm a US expat, with a wife and kids in Thailand.  It's been a while since I've navigated the Thai immigration maze, and I'd really appreciate any clarification and, especially, any documentation to help clarify.

Old Croc,

I can't fault you for not wanting to get involved in a fight. Honestly, it's not even your fight, it's their fight (their amazing incompetence vs the law), and they are trying to drag you into it.

For what it's worth, however, there MAY be some positive changes afoot. (Okay, that's a really, really big may, but it's possible.) When I had the confrontation at the new office in my story, I specifically told the officer at the new office about the corruption and constant extortion I experienced. I also told her that I know for a fact that other people from my area went to the new office b/c of the corruption at the old office.

A couple months after that, I needed to do an extension. At my wife's insistence, we went to the old office in our local province. The old office is now officially under the direction of the new office, and they have new staff. (I didn't realize this until I spoke with my wife tonight about having to go in for another extension.) Apparently, the lady at the old office that caused so many problems has been moved out of that office. I don't know if it's completely new staff, but, from what my wife understood, it is.

Now, was that office cleaned out b/c of me? Of course not. They asked me why I didn't go to the old office, and I told them. I'm sure other people did the same thing when they were asked. Maybe offering my hands to be cuffed and telling them to arrest me b/c I wouldn't pay the illegal fine was a tipping point?

I think this is probably a very rare situation. I am waiting on my new passport to come from the US Embassy, but my visa expires this weekend. When the passport comes in, I will do a visa run for this year's contract. I know I have two options based on the 60-day non-O visa (as confirmed by an immigration officer a couple months ago): A) a 30 day extension, which will cost 1,900 baht, or a border hop for a free 30 day tourist visa.

My preference is to do the border hop. My new passport may be in as soon as tomorrow, or, at the latest, by the end of next week. I'm planning to do my visa run during the Mother's day holiday 2 weeks from now. 1,900 baht for what amounts to an extra week seems ridiculous.

Adding to the fun, the embassy only gave me a copy of the first page of my passport, along with the official embassy letter stating that the new passport is being processed. (I was so concerned with making sure I had the application correct, that I forgot to make a copy of my complete passport.) I remember seeing the 3oth of this month on my last visa stamp, and they should have it in their computers as well.

So, I have two questions:

First, does anyone know where the rule is that covers "waiting for a new passport?", and, two, is a border hop possible? Or, maybe there is a rule that can suspend(or put on hold) my current visa until the new one comes in? I found a couple of provisions in the immigration law, below, that seem pertinent. I'm wondering if there is something more specific out there, perhaps in the police orders or some other regulation?

Under sect 12 of the Immigration Act 2522, it says:

Aliens which fall into any of the following categories are excluded from entering into the
Kingdom :
1. Having no genuine and valid passport or document used in lieu of passport ; or having a
genuine and valid passport or document used in lieu of a passport without Visaing by the Royal Thai
Embassies or Consulates in Foreign countries ; or from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs , excepting if a visa is not required for certain types of aliens in special instances.
Visaing and visa exemption will be under the learn and conditions as provided in the Ministerial
Regulations.

Section 19 says:

In inspecting and considering whether an alien is forbidden from entering the Kingdom , the competent official shall have authority to allow said alien to stay at an appropriate place after promising that he will present himself to the competent official to received his orders on a specified date , time and place ;

I'm sorry, but I gotta call bullshit (in the technical sense) on your immigration office. I had a similar situation when our local corrupt immigration office tried to refuse a 90 day report by mail. I went to another immigration office armed with a copy of the Licensing Facilitation Act of 2015. (LFA)

Simply stated, they do not have the authortity to demand that you give a 90 day report in person. If they demand that, then they are acting illegally.

I wrote up my story and posted it on my blog. I use my story to explain the LFA and how it operates. It was a topic here at TVF a few months ago, and I know there is still a link somewhere to that article to help people understand the law.

If it were me, I would get a copy of the LFA and make a formal corruption complaint at the regional immigration office (as suggested above) or with the local RTP. Or, I know that Prayuth has set up an office to take complaints about government corruption. Heck, I'd write up my complaint and send it to all three. (My situation is different from yours, however. I'm disgusted with all the stupidity here, and plan to leave this cesspool of sychophants after this year's contract is done.)

Here's the blog article. I think someone else may have the link to the original post here on TVF, where there is a lot of good dialogue.

http://diogeneticlight.blogspot.com/2016/04/thailands-licensing-facilitation-act-of.html

I

Section 4 also states that:

“Laws related to licensing” means all laws with the provisions that require the granting of license prior to do any activity or business;

and someone might also say that a permission to stay, as defined under the Immigration Act, is not a license as defined in the Licensing facilitation Act but I guess, until there is some official opinion, I'll have to wait until my local Immigration Office does something silly which so far in the last almost 10 years I have been going there they have not.

You bring up a good point. Here's a more detailed analysis.

Section 3. This Act applies to the granting of all permissions or licensing as well as all registrations or notifications in which the application for those are required by laws or rules prior to do any activity. All laws or rules which are contrary to, or inconsistent with, this Act shall be repealed and replaced by this Act. [emphasis added]

Section 4. In this Act: “License” means an authorization to be made by the official to any person prior to do any activity as prescribed by laws, including the granting of license or permission, the registration, the acceptance of notification and the issuance of a certificate of lease or concession;

It’s suggested that “… a permission to stay, as defined under the Immigration Act, is not a license . . . “

You bring up a good point. I thought about addressing this in the original article more thoroughly, but I didn’t want to get lost in details. Also, the only arguments for that proposition are really bad, if not outright stupid. (I’m NOT saying that you’re stupid for bringing them up! You were smart to recognize the types of arguments we may encounter.)

So, let’s look at this by section. In sect 4, it specifically includes the acceptance of a notification. Period. Case closed.

“But,” the official may say, “it must be prior to do any activity, and you haven’t done anything yet.” Of course not, because prior means before, and I am registering before continuing my stay in the kingdom. The activity in question is living, and, if living is done by a foreigner within the kingdom, then they must submit this notice. “Oh,” says the official, “but you should have submitted this before coming to stay in the Kingdom.” That is pure nonsense: the form clearly says for “continuing to stay in the kingdom,” not “coming to stay in the kingdom.”

“Oh,” says the official, “but you don’t understand Thai culture.” It’s at this point that you either present your hands to be cuffed, like I did, or just ask them how much tea money they are going to extort from you.

Now, on to sect 3 of the law. We’ve looked at the “prior to do any activity” portion of that phrase. The extra part in sect 3 is “required by laws or rules.” “Oh,” says the official, “but the 90 day notice isn’t required – we won’t throw you in jail if you don’t submit it.” Nope. There are still fines, and, if you refuse to pay the fines, you may be arrested and deported. So, yes, it is required.

Further, that argument sill ignores the fact that sect 3 is an override provision. The purpose of sect 3 is to expand the law to cover portions of the law that might arguably not be covered. This section of the law is to expand the law, not to retract it.

Sorry if this portion feels like you have wasted your time with minutiae and silly straw man arguments. Writing this feels like I’m kicking a dead horse, but, having dealt with Thai immigration more than I ever care to, this was a good thing to include.

Are the electronic copies of the "licensing manual" for the various immigration functions available online, as required under the Act? To say the least, they would make extremely interesting reading.

Great question! I used what was posted here before I went to Satun, since TVF has better information than the gov't websites.

I just looked online, and am not finding anything. I sent an email to an immigration atty to see if he knows where to find them electronically. If they aren't available yet, then we probably have to rely on the old gov't websites.

However, this law still means that they aren't allowed to magically create new rules or require anything more than is posted online currently. If they aren't available online, then this law makes that the fault of immigration and doesn't allow them to demand extra papers.

So is the granting of an extension of stay and other provisions to be executed by the Bureau of Immigration as regards a non-Thai's continued stay in the Kingdom now considered to be a 'License' as defined in Section 4 of the Act?

In short, YES. Sect. 4 specifically includes registrations and notifications, and in sect. 3 it overrules any other law that does not conform to this law. This law is potentially quite powerful for dealing with corruption and incompetence.

(I explain it in more detail in the blog article. Please let me know if the article is not clear or too technical. I can go back and revise it.)

Very interesting. I would say standing up for your rights in this way is a pretty high-risk strategy. Thailand is not renowned for always following the letter of the law. However, it is certainly a good tool to consider using against lazy officials who do not do their jobs.

Thank you. I agree - it was risky. That's where this law is so helpful. In law, we often distinguish between substantive law (what is right or wrong) versus procedural law (how you apply and administer the law matters too). This law covers procedures so that it's much more difficult for corrupt officials to change the way they administer the law. That makes it more difficult to collect tea money.

Because this law basically says that gov't officers must follow the letter of the law, it puts a restraint on them. I think that this only works if we know that this law exists. When I quoted this law to the officer in Satun, she was visibly surprised*. My guess is that she realized I was armed and ready to rumble, if needed. I don't know all the aspects of anti-corruption law here, but I think that this law is supposed to work in coordination with some of the other anti-corruption laws. She didn't want to find out what I knew, especially after I presented my hands and invited her to arrest me. How much loss of face would it have been if they did arrest me, and then I used that law to (1) exonerate myself, and (2) then come back to file complaints against them? It just wasn't worth the effort or the risk, especially since Bangkok is making anti-corruption noises right now.

Of course, my sincere willingness to let them arrest me instead of giving in to the other office's incompetence probably made a huge difference.

Although the interrogations are inevitably stressful, I am not sure you need to change what you are doing. A little bit of aggravation and five minutes extra to enter the country is not the end of the world. I do not see they have any justification under Section 12 of the Immigration law to deny you entry (whether they would like to or not).

Also, the Licensing Facilitation Act that recently went into effect puts strict limits on their discretion. They are required to have all the documents that they may require posted in an agency manual that is also available online. They are not allowed to ask for more, and may not deny you for any reason outside of what is required by their manuals.

Also, though it doesn't specifically say so, the way the law is written clearly envisions government officers in an assisting role instead of an adversarial one. (TBS, I also know it will take time to change the culture of corruption here.)

Good faith is not an excuse.

No, but the law does consider it a prerequisite with transactions.

I have no doubt honest mistakes cause some people to overstay sometimes...but unfortunately we always have people "who play the honest mistake game (that is, they clearly understand they are overstaying)." How does and will immigration distinguish between such people?

I expect it's going to be treated along the same lines as "ignorance of law excuses no one" which is a legal principle that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because he or she was unaware of its content.

I would feel inclined to agree that ignorance of the law is no excuse if gov't officers actually respected their country's laws. It's difficult enough to follow the written law sometimes. I went through law school and still have difficulties understanding the way certain parts of the law are written (translated.)

Changing rules every other month depending on the whims of officers at a particular checkpoint or immigration office only serves to destroy the law. How can we be expected to know the whims of these people?

Thank goodness that there are folks here on TV who have enough experience that they can tell us how the law is ACTUALLY applied.

I don't see how you can misread an entry stamp, you know before entering how long you will be given 15,30,60,90 or a 1 year stamp.

its not a pick any stamp up and put it in the passport, yes the immigration officer can make a mistake,but all stamps should be checked at the time.

Surely before planing a trip to Thailand you work out how many days you are staying, have the correct visa and travel insurance, and a plan on re-entries etc.

A long term 1 year extension may be forgotten, but again its just bad planing, and not putting that renewal date in a diary, phone, computer.

Lots of people don't realize the date is on the stamp and do their own calculation on their head (30 days) and are off by 1 day (which is probably why they don't fine for one day) [i.e. 30 days means 30 nights -- when it actually only means 29 nights]

This. When I first came to Thailand - I came from China, where the 30 day period on your visa starts the day after you enter the country, whereas in Thailand it starts on day of entry. So, I was exactly 1 day over when I left Thailand to move to Cambodia. I paid the fine, said sorry and haven't done it again. I find it hard to fathom missing a visa date by a month but a day is pretty easy to do.

In the States, we switch our month and date around. So, March 4, 2016 is 3-4-2016 for us, but 4-3-2016 here. I can see you someone would get it mixed up. I have nearly made that mistake a few times.

500 bht was posted here on Thaivisa.

Link please.

Just a guess: he may think a border hop at Ranong is an extension.

That may have been. Also, I was running around like a chicken with its head cut off between the new baby coming 3 weeks early and making sure all my other papers were sorted. Of all the papers I needed to have sorted and copied, the one's with the king's picture were the least of my worries. Probably my mistake. I plead Nolo contendere (no contest) on that.

Thanks all for your advice. I took my toddler with me, and things went nearly smoothly.

The local immigration refused to accept my 90 registration by mail, but never notified me as required by the Licensing

Facilitation Act. (They called a teacher at my school to pass me a message*, but only said they would not accept ANY registration by mail.)

I quoted the law to the officers at the Satun office.

Them: Why you didn't just go in to see them?

Me: Why can't they do their job and send me written notification of their denial as required by Thai law?

Them: How can they mail you?

Me: One, they have my address on the 90 day registration form, and, two, they have an entire file on me from the last two years. Should I just start going to the Kantang office and do their job for them?

At this point, I told the officer that I refused to pay the late fine, gave my daughter to my sis-in-law, and presented my hands, saying "Go ahead, arrest me, but I refuse to pay a fine because a government officer is too lazy to do their job."

Then, sis-in-law hands her phone to immigration to speak with my wife, who told her of just a few of the previous extortion attempts and other misdeeds by the Kantang office.

They approved my stay, but charged me 1,900 bht instead of a 500 bht extension. Since I went from non-O to non-B, I guess that's legit.

Yes, I probably lost a little face, and was probably too blunt. I did try to play it cool, but I just have no f**ks left to give about Thai Immigration. The Satun officer did tell my wife that she was waiving the fine because she could tell that I was being sincere about the misdeeds of the local clown posse that passes for immigration in our province.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your advice. Maybe I should start a post on the Licensing Facilitation Act? The officer really listened when I told her what the law said.

*What's next, will they give a note saying "Will you be my friend? Circle one: Yes NO"

Wow you have certainly read the book on "how to win friends and influence people!

Which 500 Bht extension are you talking about ?

ALL extensions cost 1900 Bht.

500 bht was posted here on Thaivisa.

Thanks all for your advice. I took my toddler with me, and things went nearly smoothly.

The local immigration refused to accept my 90 registration by mail, but never notified me as required by the Licensing
Facilitation Act. (They called a teacher at my school to pass me a message*, but only said they would not accept ANY registration by mail.)

I quoted the law to the officers at the Satun office.

Them: Why you didn't just go in to see them?

Me: Why can't they do their job and send me written notification of their denial as required by Thai law?

Them: How can they mail you?

Me: One, they have my address on the 90 day registration form, and, two, they have an entire file on me from the last two years. Should I just start going to the Kantang office and do their job for them?

At this point, I told the officer that I refused to pay the late fine, gave my daughter to my sis-in-law, and presented my hands, saying "Go ahead, arrest me, but I refuse to pay a fine because a government officer is too lazy to do their job."

Then, sis-in-law hands her phone to immigration to speak with my wife, who told her of just a few of the previous extortion attempts and other misdeeds by the Kantang office.

They approved my stay, but charged me 1,900 bht instead of a 500 bht extension. Since I went from non-O to non-B, I guess that's legit.

Yes, I probably lost a little face, and was probably too blunt. I did try to play it cool, but I just have no f**ks left to give about Thai Immigration. The Satun officer did tell my wife that she was waiving the fine because she could tell that I was being sincere about the misdeeds of the local clown posse that passes for immigration in our province.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your advice. Maybe I should start a post on the Licensing Facilitation Act? The officer really listened when I told her what the law said.

*What's next, will they give a note saying "Will you be my friend? Circle one: Yes NO"

As said obtain a medical certificate from doctor for wife indicating she can not travel - expect that would be accepted. Have her ID card and copy of marriage certificate and use TM.7 (with 4x6cm photo) to apply for 60 day extension. Perhaps take child with you to show why you can not currently leave and soften any hard feelings.

Thanks!

Taking the toddler is a great idea. She does like to travel.

If your wife is Thai you could apply for a 60 day extension to visit her. Normally they would want her to be with you when you apply but if you had something to prove she is in the hospital they would probably waive that.

You can only apply for the extension at the designated office for where you are living. You will also need proof of residence.

There is border crossing in Satun you could go to instead of Sadao.

Thanks UbonJoe!

You are a wealth of information, and a saint for putting up with all the corruption here.

I won't go back to Kantang office. They are thoroughly corrupt, and a big reason why I'm leaving Thailand to work elsewhere. I'll try my luck with Satun. I know several locals who go there, even this year during the crackdown, and haven't had a problem.

If that doesn't work and I have to do a border hop, I will need documentation of transport out of the country in 30 days, right?

Looking for suggestions as to best option.

I've been working on Non-B visas for the last couple years to stay here with my wife. My current visa expires tomorrow.

My wife was due with the second baby in 2 weeks, but the new one came out about 2 am today. She's recovering form a c-section, and we have a little one at home. I really can't do a border run right now.

A couple years ago, I got a non-O extension at a local immigration office for 90 days. I am currently looking for a job out of Thailand. Our local immigration office is thoroughly corrupt, and, since I called them on their corruption, they have targeted both schools that I've worked at for the last 2 years.

Here are the options:

1) Request a non-O for 90 days at Satun immigration office. If they deny me, then I will go to Sadao and do a border hop.
(If I do the border hop, I will need documentation of transport arrangements out of the country at the end of 30 days, right?)

2) Just go to Sadao and do a border hop.

I've heard that Satun immigration are decent human beings, in contrast to the extortioners in our local office.

Thanks in advance.

Thank you Ubonjoe. That's what I thought too?

Can you enlighten me as to how individual offices just make up rules that don't exist? I know that, on a practical level, it helps with the old tea-money two-step: (1) make a problem and (2) offer to fix the problem for a small fee. Beyond that, how can any country function when gov't officers feel free to just make up rules with no actual law to support them?

I sent in my 90 Day Report by mail on 4 Dec 2015 to the Kantang, Trang province office. Today, (11 Dec) I got a message relayed to me from a fellow teacher that they aren't accepting the TM 47 by mail anymore. I specifically checked the regulations before I sent it in (which don't appear to have been updated in a long, long time) and followed them. There was nothing in the regulations about ending mail service. This leads me to 2 questions:

1) Does anyone have any information regarding TM47 by mail? I've seen many posts where immigration officials from different offices say it doesn't exist anymore, and many are years old. Regulations or verified new posts would be appreciated.

2) Is anyone else having this problem? Kantang immigration has a well-deserved reputation for corruption, so maybe it's just our officers?

I can understand your frustration. But it is always said that: "If you are in Rome, do as the Romans do". Most of the problems that we are facing now have been created by some of these very unscrupulous teachers. Most of them are here with fake papers here and there. Some of them even go as far as faking the TOEIC (Testing Of English for International Communication). When they do things like these and they are discovered, why will they not scrutinize every paper or degree that are presented to them? Why will they not tighten the rules or bring in new ones? Kurusapa is asking from teachers who are coming for the second 2 year teaching permit to contact their universities to get a confirmation letter send to Kurusapa well ahead of time before their coming to get the second 2 year teaching permit. This was not applicable before. But since any Tom, Dick, Jack or Harry can get anything in the name of a degree in English and present to them (and they have started discovering this) why will they not make things tough? I even still feel that they are not very strict. If they were then many of these so call teachers will be in prison. If you leave, what will that change? Of course there are guys out there who will work even for a lower salary. They can replace you with ease. If you have all your papers ready and genuine, you will not have any problems with the Thai authority.

What we are seeing in the field is the opposite. There are too few teachers, and WAY too few with legit degrees. We see this as teachers, and have been told this by our admin. Yet immigration keeps making problems. The only ones willing to work for a lower salary are unqualified to begin with.

Further, teachers with fake degrees going to prison? Do you even know what those words mean? If a fake gets caught, they get deported. Why would Thailand waste judicial and penal resources when they can just make them leave.

Lastly, I do have papers ready, and they are genuine. That does not change the fact that immigration appears to be making up rules on their own. If you want to be a shill for Thai corruption, please go find another blog.

Thank you!

That 'not more than a year language' should not be read to give front-line officials unfettered discretion. It just opens the door for abuse (and extortion). I'll look through the links you gave me and see if I can find something more. Thanks again.

I'm hearing many farang in my area are making plans to leave. 3 of 6 English teachers in my dept are actively looking and preparing to leave. Even one of the Chinese in our school openly told me that she doesn't like the way immigration treats us, and plans to leave at the end of the year.

"Is this real life? Do I really have to report my address when I move?"

Immigration Act.

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned.

"House Master" means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht to 10,000 Baht.

It is law but rarely enforced. Although immigration seem to be enforcing it more and more these days. When you arrive to stay at a hotel the hotel will inform immigration. If you stay at a private residence the "House Master" or "Owner" should inform immigration. If they don't the fine is up to 2,000 baht. So you got off lightly with 800 Baht.

This is a cleaner version than the original translation from the Thai gov't that I read. The version I read included a clause that mentioned renting a room. That little addition made the entire section read as though it applied to commercial transactions only. (I went to law school, and I know how to read laws.)

I got the same shakedown, but the Kantang immigration office would take care of the problem for 'only' 800 B. How nice of them! I told them they were corrupt and demanding a bribe, made a little scene to make them lose some face, and left. (BTW, my Thai wife was with me, and she was 100% in agreement that it was a shakedown. They got even though, and made problems for the entire dept at my school when we went to get our visa extensions.)

Also, there is no clear instruction to new foreigners about the 90 day report. It's almost as if they were trying to create situations where people would get in to trouble? Thankfully, those brave Thai gov't officials are willing to buck the system and 'take care of' problems at reduced rates!