tjrd12

An unfair analogy..

10 million for 6 weeks or 20 million for 2 weeks..

Its a question of sharing the risk, clearing waters as fast as possible, yet trying not to flood bangkok dramatically.

If bangkok now doesnt flood, and the opening of this gate does speed up the drainage of the area now flooded, it will be the right course of action. Se3ems bangkokians dont want to take any risk, by virtue of the 'we are more important' card, thereby guaranteeing more pain for others, while they only have 'risk'.

Actually, it's currently 2.5 million (for 4-6 weeks) and if Bangkok floods it would be another 8-10 million for 4-6 weeks. What makes you think they could clear the water in 2 weeks?

Correct, and more people out of work and homeless and at a higher economic cost, not to mention the damage to Thailand's business reputation (which is already taking a beating). You have to protect what is still dry.

Why would the burbs be a total loss? Do you think they are going to knock all the buildings down after the flooding eases? What about the tens of thousands of businesses that can reopen once the water is gone. Being able to open two weeks faster could be the difference between being able to reopen or completely running out of funds. Every extra day the northern burbs are flooded is costing us in lost income and my staff are no longer getting paid. Having inner Bangkok take a few risks instead of leaving the canals empty could be a sensible trade off.

Ok, so flood the CBD, the airport, the food manufacturing factories and 12 million more homes in inner bangkok so that the SME's in northern Bangkok can re-open two weeks earlier and/or avoid going bankrupt... that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Could not agree more. It makes no sense. If Central BKK is allowed to flood it will not be for a day. It could last weeks. Again, the effects would be devastating. It is not a sensible trade off. It would only compound the problem as there will be more area to clean and even more people out of work and out of a place to live. Protect what it not flooded and then do all you can once the waters recede.

Allowing the CBD and the rest of Central BKK to flood is idiotic. While I feel for the folks in the 'burbs, if flooding is allowed in inner BKK it will only prolong recovery and damage the economy more. Business can still continue, but allow flooding and it will grind to a halt. Not smart. Protect the inner city and airport, if they don't, well, TIT!

Be a sport. Bangkok people should take their fair share. Rural people pay tax too, not just bangkokians.

I'm sorry but I do not agree.

It surely makes more sense to flood the countryside, rather than industrial-estates or the centre of the capital, because the economic-damage will be less ? Not negligible, or pleasant, but less-expensive to the country as-a-whole in the long run.

Flooding the shops & offices & banks & factories, out of some notion of democratic-equality, cannot be right, can it ?

It really is amazing to contrast the Japanese people's response to the Tsunami with the Thai people's response to the flooding. In Japan the population worked together, here it is neighborhood against neighborhood. "I am flooded with 2 meters of water and you have no flooding. I want to tear down the dyke so that you have one meter and I have one meter." Childish, self-centered insanity!

Allowing the CBD and the rest of Central BKK to flood is idiotic. While I feel for the folks in the 'burbs, if flooding is allowed in inner BKK it will only prolong recovery and damage the economy more. Business can still continue, but allow flooding and it will grind to a halt. Not smart. Protect the inner city and airport, if they don't, well, TIT!

Be a sport. Bangkok people should take their fair share. Rural people pay tax too, not just bangkokians.

It really has nothing to do about being a sport. It has to do with economics and sense. The burbs are already a total loss and whether the water drains a week or two faster will not lessen the degree of damage or cost less or stave off the disease that is sure to follow.

Allowing central BKK and the airport to flood simply adds to the cost of cleanup and rebuilding, damages the core infrastructure of the country, completely devastates investor confidence (as if it is not damaged enough), and will spread disease at an unheard of rate. Closing the airport will ruin high season which brings much needed tourist dollars and taxes to help in the rebuilding process. It is simply madness to even consider letting water into the inner city on purpose. Water will not simply "flow through," it will be in the inner city for days if not weeks. Central BKK and the airport should be protected at all costs.

I would say food and water are ABSOLUTES and so saving a food source

and clean drinking water sources take precedence over housing in this situation.

Sure your house is dry but in 2 weeks you are starving.

Have to look medium term not JUST short term.

2¢

I agree there.. but BKK is not a food producer. Water yes that has to be protected. But Saying BKK is a food producer is not correct IMHO.

But the multi national companies are the food producers and if they stop working Thailands income stops as well.. A factory is closed. ok the company can clean it up and open it. If the company headquarters is closed ...who will open the factories.

I feel for all of you flooded.. we will have the flood in about 3-4 days. But flooding the CBD is just NOT the correct thing to do. Not withstanding the huge amount of people that live in central BKK. what do you want to do with them..?

I think a big deal is made out of some flooding for BKK. Its not the end of the world and can be cleaned up. Just like my home is going to be cleaned up. I loose some money, too bad. But holding the water back and making other suffer is not a nice thing to do.

IF (and i really mean if) it could help the whole flooding to end 1 week faster i think its worth it. But i dont wish hardship on BKK for the sake of it. Maybe its already to late to open gates wider. It should have been done a long time ago. But BKK did not want to take any risks.

I heard people here posting how the canals near their homes were stagnant and not moving while we needed to drain the water.

Allowing the CBD and the rest of Central BKK to flood is idiotic. While I feel for the folks in the 'burbs, if flooding is allowed in inner BKK it will only prolong recovery and damage the economy more. Business can still continue, but allow flooding and it will grind to a halt. Not smart. Protect the inner city and airport, if they don't, well, TIT!

The word "artist" is thrown around far too casually in the article. What is being talked about are "performing artists" (to use the term very loosely) who are doing little more than hacking their way through bad covers of somebody else's songs. Virtually none of them will be people of unique talent losing the opportunity to compose and refine original compositions of any quality.

Edit for spelling.

I think you are missing the point. Whether covers or not, whether you personally like the way they are being performed or not, the open mic nights filled a social function for those involved and attracted both tourists and locals. This makes the city a more agreeable and lively place. If that is not enough of a reason, then here is another one: An active music scene helps to foster new musicians with original talent. Musicians learn from each other. Great original music is rarely the result of a solitary vacuum, it is the result of much listening and practice. Reducing people's opportunity to participate in musical activities is not conducive to creativity, nor to the vision of Chiang Mai Creative City.

Finally, nobody is forcing you to listen. Feel free to stay at home and listen to your own recordings created by artists to your own liking, or to travel to find their live performances, or to go to venues without live music here in CM. For many retirees and other expats, music is a hobby or recreational activity, it is a real shame that they should have to fear legal repercussions for just having what is, essentially, harmless fun.

Very well stated. I agree 100%.

Just like Pol Pot, a lot of ass backward policies in this country, and they fully intend to stay that way.

Good thing I can download GOOD, international music online, and don't have to suffer any low talent here.

Watch out Thailand, you don't become a laughing stock. Many are already encouraging others not to come here, for many reasons.

Is that REALLY what you want?

In a nutshell, I really believe it is. Sad...

its an all out crackdown on whatever is foreign in my opinion.

house registration normally within a week is 'under investigation more than a month now in Nongkhai

suddenly ordinary people who want a decent registration need to be screened and what more.

the whole atmosphere is one of election time with pickup trucks blaring the message of Thai for the Thai's only on an hourly basis.

it changes the land of smiling people into over excited nationalists.

thank God its not forever

I think your last statement is wishful thinking. The anti-foreign sentiment has been growing since the inception of TRT and is something the ALL political parties have latched onto, especially since 06. I cannot see things ever getting any "easier." This musician thing is just one example.

A lot of <deleted> written here by posters.

If a Thai musician, or sportsperson, comes to UK or USA to do their thing, they need a performers or sporting visa. No difference here.

I knock Thailand a lot, but I don't see why people who can strum a guitar, or play the piano, should get off with financing their stay here by earning a few baht without the proper permissions and permits.

Depends. There are open mic nights in bars all over my home town Chicago, and I assume many hundreds (thousands?) of other cities. Anybody can get up and play but of course they don't get paid. If a foreign musician is getting paid yes, agreed, he has to have the proper paperwork. But shutting down open mic nights where no one gets paid is a bit over the top. But then, I don't make the rules.

Depends on what? Probably, it depends on the rules of the country! It's a well publicised rule here that 'work' is 'work', even if it is unpaid work. If a bar owner has you performing in public, so people will sit down, listen, and buy his beer, then that is unquestionably work. Even if you're not getting paid for it, you're the cause of the establishment having a jamming night.

I'd guess that most Chicago mic nights involve performances by US citizens, or those with permits to do so. If a Thai with a USA tourist visa gets up, sings, the crowd ask for more and he sings again, hey, that's work and he's breaking his visa. No difference here to that scenario.

Not at all. In the US anyone can get up and play at an open mic without fear of arrest. They are not getting paid. The only benefit to them is a bit of fun. Those that are playing are buying beer as well. It is not work in any sense of the term. Your line of reasoning is quite flawed, but it is exactly the line that the "authorities" use here. More and more it is becoming apparent that this country is not friendly to long term residents.

A lot of <deleted> written here by posters.

If a Thai musician, or sportsperson, comes to UK or USA to do their thing, they need a performers or sporting visa. No difference here.

I knock Thailand a lot, but I don't see why people who can strum a guitar, or play the piano, should get off with financing their stay here by earning a few baht without the proper permissions and permits.

I totally agree, as does Immigration, however many of us are comfortably off, and play merely because we enjoy performing, and would not be allowed to if patrons did not enjoy listening (or not). The current situation is that even very casual jamming will result in arrest as it appears one is going to have to prove ones innocence in court with a great deal of stress and at significant expense.

I know what you're saying. But, again, if a Thai singer or athlete deliberately and publicly entertained a crowd in UK or USA, then he / she would need a proper permit or visa to do so.

By using the word 'patrons' you're definitely performing in public. No question.

For your purpose, all you want to do is invite people around to your home for a BBQ and play amongst yourselves. In a public venue, sorry, but you're out of order.

?? Open Mic nights occur all over the world. It is a gathering place for musicians and they play for free. In the US or the US the performer does not need a working permit if he/she is not getting paid. One is not out of order playing for free in a public venue.

Actually, a lot of the CM pubs dont pay the artists. Is some of the aforementioned spots, people get up and jam because they enjoy playing music and having a social venue to do so. The ones who make a good income are the owners of the pubs

Yo, let's raid karaoke bars too! Plenty of rich Japs over there, "working w/o proper documents".

Karaoke you PAY to sing. So just put a few baht in a jar on the stage AND put it on the menu. How can they complain about that? The owner is charging you to play.

A lot of <deleted> written here by posters.

If a Thai musician, or sportsperson, comes to UK or USA to do their thing, they need a performers or sporting visa. No difference here.

I knock Thailand a lot, but I don't see why people who can strum a guitar, or play the piano, should get off with financing their stay here by earning a few baht without the proper permissions and permits.

We are not talking about musicians who are being paid to play. We are talking about people getting up on stage for a open mic and playing for fun. No money involved, yet they are arrested for "working."

Why not put a jar next to the stage and have every Farang who plays "pay" ten baht to play. Then you are paying to do something, just like paying for a tour. Surely there can be no issue with that!

I knew that the Thai politicians are stupid but that they are so stupid I never imagined........

I always imagined they were this stupid. Their ignorance and stupidity is on display every day in this backward country. First, to all the Thia numb nuts in Parliament, if you are really concerned about the retirement amount, just raise it for men who marry Thai nationals you idiots! It's a pitence to us anyway! The fact is, it just bugs the heck out of you that your women prefer farang of any age over your little shrink-wrapped package! You want to remain free to treat your women like crap and have them do all the work you are all to lazy or stupid (likely both) to do so you have time to play with little boys and ladyboys in your local brothels, drink your days away and gamble away what little baht you do have from whatever scam you were running . As far as the little fatherless bastards that might be created by an old farang who keels over before it's grown, I suspect the geezer will have provided for the wife and child much better than any Thai man is capable of doing. Also here is a heads up for you brain dead little MP droids, just because you all believe 400,000 or 800,000 is alot of money, to most farang of retirement age it is absolutely nothing, and I seriously doubt any farang ever married a Thai girl of any age with this thought in mind. So I guess it will still be perfectly ok for these impotent little lilliputions to cheat on their wives with these young girls or marry them themselves and abuse them. Thailand is a country on the decline in a big way and this will be another huge step towards its demise. Other than your women, you have little else to offer us and you will learn this lesson the hard way.

Guys, Again it is APRIL FOOLS DAY!!

best frothing rant of the thread...

Guys, It's April 1st!!

Cable/satellite, wirelesss for cell phones, online shopping, electronic delivery of movies to your TV, 911 service, police dispatch and tracking, health care, stable/clean electric service and delivery, delivery of clean water, housing standards, roads (with underground sensors that detect oncoming traffic, and change lights for oncoming emergency vehicles), transportation (including electronic tracking and anti theft devices-Onstar), delivery services (ability to track packages at multiple points during the delivery process), coordinated traffic lights, space flight, Banking, financial services, airplanes, biotech, computer development, chip development, telecommunications in general...this could be a very long list...and I need another cup of coffee.

Why are you so hard on this? You can't be taking this seriously? At least I hope not!

And that is just the technology stuff. Add to that what Mark45 said and all the environmental issues. On all US highways they have "Rest Stops" where there are clean bathrooms, places to park for a rest at any time of day or night, highway instruction maps, and often free coffee and cookies.

Except for the large silty rivers flowing through farm land, most of the US rivers are clean. In New York State you can find dozens of clear mountain streams full of trout. And, that is within a two hour drive from one of the largest cities in the world. Yes, there is garbage in the poor parts of major cities, but for the most part the cities are clean. There are dozens of huge cities scattered around the Great Lakes, and yet you can take a boat out and catch salmon and trout within sight of sky scrapers.

The lack of garbage strewn around is very evident when crossing the border from Mexico into the USA. On the Mexican side of the border there is plastic garbage strewn everywhere. I couldn't take a photo in Mexico without removing all the debris... unless of course, I actually WANTED garbage in the photo. Thailand is more like Mexico in that aspect. Every klong in Thailand is covered with plastic bags and crap. Human waste is pumped directly into every waterway. Only in the remote villages is there some semblance of cleanliness.

Perfectly stated!!

The FACTS about this is that these days upward class mobility is now easier in Western Europe than in the USA. Not to mention the obscene gaps between rich and poor and the massive percentage of wealth ownership held by a tiny minority in the US compares well with Thailand. Yet some of you want to hang on to tired old myths and/or republican propaganda. Right wingers/libertarians sell the idea to the poor that everyone in the US can be rich, so they get the suckers to keep voting against their own economic self interest, believing that pablum that they too might be rich someday. Some will, the vast majority won't.

Correct...and stated well by Howard Zinn in People's History of the United States..

I much prefer living in Thailand, but anyone who starts out a post with "Thailand is actually technologically more advanced than the US, the US is lagging behind big time" has no credibility IMHO.

The problem is, all anyone can think of is the Internet....other than the Internet, name something the US is ahead in technologically.

Cable/satellite, wirelesss for cell phones, online shopping, electronic delivery of movies to your TV, 911 service, police dispatch and tracking, health care, stable/clean electric service and delivery, delivery of clean water, housing standards, roads (with underground sensors that detect oncoming traffic, and change lights for oncoming emergency vehicles), transportation (including electronic tracking and anti theft devices-Onstar), delivery services (ability to track packages at multiple points during the delivery process), coordinated traffic lights, space flight, Banking, financial services, airplanes, biotech, computer development, chip development, telecommunications in general...this could be a very long list...and I need another cup of coffee.

Why are you so hard on this? You can't be taking this seriously? At least I hope not!

Not to mention cleanliness of food, noise and air pollution...there is REALLY no quite place in Thailand...clean air is a dream with the crap blowing down from China...

Urgh...

I wonder if some of you are missing the point. Firstly, we know the facts. America is the only superpower left in the world. It is also the wealthiest. America's GDP alone is practically the same as the entire EU combined. We EXPECT America to be the most technologically advanced and I'd say that it is. But what of the quality of life for the average American? Is there a wealth gap? Education gap? How about health care? What sorts of stuff really matters at the individual level?

There is corruption in America. At the highest levels. It's just much more sophisticated. I'm sure many here know that the financial crisis originated in the US, i.e., CDO's, credit default swaps and so on. Crime? Large cities in America are far more dangerous than, say, Chiang Mai or Bangkok. Racism? Ask an Hispanic or African American if there's still racism in America. Driving? Very subjective, but I honestly prefer driving in Thailand to the US. It's more about common sense here, rather than constantly looking over your shoulders for cops who will tag you for the most minor infraction. Affordable dining? No competition. If you like Thai food, it's the best around at the best prices. Housing? Not condos, now, but houses. You get more for what you pay for here. Do they even make brick homes in America anymore? Internet? Well the US has got us on high-speed access, but Thailand is catching up. Cable TV? How many channels do you need? In my last US stay, I was paying US$100/month for cable. I could use more American sports on True Visions, but then our non-American farangs will probably complain. Healthcare, including dental? I can actually get darn good medical care in Thailand and pay cash for it. Can't do it in the US without some sort of insurance or subsidy. Politics? Democrats vs Republicans is more childish and absurd than reds vs yellows, I assure you. The ladies? Well, that one's also subjective.

It's the cultural differences which count. People are a lot ruder in the United States. They talk loud, as if they can't communicate without shouting. It's a real chore to find anybody thin there anymore because everyone is obese. And I swear the country does not make young people anymore. At least not from the area of the country I lived in.

Thailand is far more pleasant. Americans like to show off their high GDP per capita numbers, but in the end they really don't have much to show for it. The healthcare system sucks. The school system sucks. The cities are all ghettos. Wages are crap. Fat people everywhere. Cost of living is sky high.

Seems Thais know how to live far better on the money they do have.

??? I would say folks in BKK are FAR ruder then in Ft Worth, TX....Thais smile, but that does not really mean anything...they don't hold the door for each other, they will run over you when driving and have very little regard for you and will be rude unless it makes them lose face...Yes, in the US people are FAT...if you have money the US healthcare system is the best in the world...if you live in the right area the schools are great...if you are poor it sucks, but it sucks to be poor anywhere...at least when you lose your job in America you have a bit of a safety net...

Ghettos? As I said in an earlier posting...even most poor areas in the US are cleaner then the nicest parts of Bangkok...

C'mon be honest with yourself and others...ask ONE question, if it weren't for the women would you be here??

Of course you would not...Yes, I know you came for the chiz but then fell in love with "Thai culture," pleeeese...give me a break...

I live in the Asoke area, one of the "nicer" areas of BKK, well, if you can call any place in BKK "nice," with the exception of Nichida Thani, and I still say that all American middle class areas are nicer and CLEANER then Asoke, Thong Lo, etc...better infrastructure, what have you...they just don't take care of things here...

Today had the misfortune of having to travel to Pinklao...never a fun journey and what a hole...anyone that would rather live there then in the US should have their head examined...unless of course it is for the chix...still is, always was, and always will be...if they disappeared why would you stay???

Abortion is good for a society...it keeps the unwanted from being born...also it should be free, as why add a potential welfare recipient??

I totally agree with my houston friend. I have lived full time in Thailand for many years now and when not living there full time divided my time between the U.S. and Thailand. I just returned to Oceanside Ca and was shocked at the price of everything here now. And as I usually went to and enjoyed the movies all around Bangkok daily, I have had to cut my movie going to 2/week here and every theator I've been in has been smelly, nasty inside and I've spent more for my popcorn and snacks even though the ticket prices have averaged $9 and that's for the Senior discount.

Grocery prices have doubled since I was last in the U.S. in 2005 and don't even talk about gas prices, utility costs, taxes, and really stupid laws. While illegal immigrants rights are very protected, those who have lived 74+ years life as an American citizen are subjected to laws, policies and rules that mave nothing to do with common sense or reason.

I also agree with America having become far behind Thailand in technology, and I'd add that the politicians and "good old boys" are ALL self serving incompitants who have no desire to represent their constituants.

And don't even try to get a real live person on the phone at any government entity, or utility companhy (unless you speak Spanish).

I hadn't been back a week when I started questioning my decision making abilities and sanity.

The only plus is being close to my 4 kids, 2 grandkids, great grandson and many friends from all over the U.S. who all have been so supportive of my return.

Ken Bower

Veteran Human Being

Ken,

I think it really depends on where you live in the US...TX has a lower unemployment rate then most of the US, and contrary to what Krugman troweled out yesterday, is pretty healthy economically. My friends that live in CA, NV, AZ, and FL tell very different stories...it seems the regional difference are more and more pronounced...When I look at the US I tend to throw out the coasts as they are FAR more inflated then most of the country..

Gas is cheaper in many parts of the US then it is here...38 baht a liter for Benzene now in BKK...that is over 4 USD a gallon...

Movie prices are inching up here as well..not that there is much to see in Tland anymore as WAY fewer western films get released...11 yrs ago when I moved I would normally see two movies a week...now it is far less then two a month...

Was in Prime Outlets both in Round Rock and Allen, TX in Oct...bought shoes, Coach Bags, Jeans, all great quality stuff at a fraction of the price here in LOS...my friends who still live in TX now bring clothes from the states to LOS for family members as it is a bargain in the US...the US, with the current deflationary environment is a STEAL...BUT I fear it will not last for long as inflation is right around the corner...but right now the US is the best place to be a consumer...

Go to Central Market (oops I am wrong, 350 varieties of beer http://www.centralma...ine---Beer.aspx) or Whole Foods...easy...and most in the 7.50 range (although nice Belgians will run about 8.50..still cheap compared to 115 baht for a bottle at Foodland in BKK) ...I will agree that mass market beer in the US is TRASH...Try Breckenridge Brewery out of CO...Great stuff...their Oatmeal Stout is REALLY nice..Rahr and Sons from Ft Worth TX (Ugly Pug is fantastic) makes some wonderful brews as well...Fox and Hound in Ft Worth has 2 dollar pint night on Tuesdays and that includes micros and imports (they have Maredsous!) Here in BKK a small glass of Belgian is around 180 baht...Again all due to high import duties to protect the wealthy here at the expense of the consumer...Don't even get me started on wine...305% excise tax....

quote from your link : " — many from microbreweries and only available in Texas at Central Market —" i guess the rest of the country is out of luck, must be a higher percentage of drunks in TX. There's a central market around the corner from me,i'll check it out and see if the claim is true. Central market isn't the regular HEB store, its the Hiso version.

No it is not the regular HEB...it is fantastic...very high quality food, lots of organic produce, the best selection of fish I have seen in TX, free range meats, an AMAZING bakery, a cheese selection that rivals anything, pre-prepared food that are tasty AND healthy (great hummus)...and of course a great beer and wine section...tis a foodies paradise...

Here Here...agree with you 100%, well except the part about Obama...

Yes, Sing is a GREAT place, if I had employment there I would leave LOS in a HEARTBEAT...quality of life is far superior to Thailand...

Chalk and cheese really. I think we're expecting a bit too much of old Thailand, it's got a long way to develop yet.

Actually not...I expect very little here...and that was OK when it was cheap...now that prices are WAY up, I do expect value for money...and you don't get it here in central BKK...