englansi

Or, as an alternative to thinking and learning something, just trot out secondary school exam misinformation and consider the job a goodun. Then stamp on or ignore people who point at a piece of genuine evidence.

This thread has descended into farce: To the Brits who trot out the boring 99 year old to little too late job, you have much more home grown shame to worry about than that. To the Yanks who respond in like vein, you need to have a close look at Plan Red in the aftermath the true strategic situation after 1812, it wasn't the victory you are led to believe and culminated in the forming of your own empire at the expense of the British in 1946. A breathtakingly audacious and lucky stroke. Kudos.

To the Asians, you have been handed the template by your own, Take Up Thy Stethoscope And Walk. To the Canadians, wow what a truly inspirational military legacy, on par with the best in history of any, including Leonidas; totally forgotten. To the Dutch, nice one myneer, you dodged a big bullet there dincha? The French were betrayed by Churchill, so don't make fun of them.

20 Billion US and military hardware to Germany in the 30's. Churchill blackmailed by FDR for his French forgeries and the Czechs buying his substantial debt. Churchill's illegal and repeated bombing of Berlin 6 months before the Blitz. The list goes on and on.

WW2 is a shameful story for all belligerents, quite in contrast to the Bowdlerised version most people deliberately choose to believe.

In that context to address the OP's question: Thailand avoided the Empire politics of four principal belligerents, and came out intact. A truly remarkable achievement.

And you ain't found a bird yet.........

Hahaaa. Nice one centurion. True, but I have a badger.

Or, as an alternative to thinking and learning something, just trot out secondary school exam misinformation and consider the job a goodun. Then stamp on or ignore people who point at a piece of genuine evidence.

This thread has descended into farce: To the Brits who trot out the boring 99 year old to little too late job, you have much more home grown shame to worry about than that. To the Yanks who respond in like vein, you need to have a close look at Plan Red in the aftermath the true strategic situation after 1812, it wasn't the victory you are led to believe and culminated in the forming of your own empire at the expense of the British in 1946. A breathtakingly audacious and lucky stroke. Kudos.

To the Asians, you have been handed the template by your own, Take Up Thy Stethoscope And Walk. To the Canadians, wow what a truly inspirational military legacy, on par with the best in history of any, including Leonidas; totally forgotten. To the Dutch, nice one myneer, you dodged a big bullet there dincha? The French were betrayed by Churchill, so don't make fun of them.

20 Billion US and military hardware to Germany in the 30's. Churchill blackmailed by FDR for his French forgeries and the Czechs buying his substantial debt. Churchill's illegal and repeated bombing of Berlin 6 months before the Blitz. The list goes on and on.

WW2 is a shameful story for all belligerents, quite in contrast to the Bowdlerised version most people deliberately choose to believe.

In that context to address the OP's question: Thailand avoided the Empire politics of four principal belligerents, and came out intact. A truly remarkable achievement.

@ Capthaddock

The US did not declare war on Germany on Dec. 8, 1941, only on Japan. A couple of days later, much to the Americans' surprise, Hitler declared war on the US instead, presumably to live up to his treaty obligations with Japan....

It was no surprise to anyone. Hitler gave a particularly erudite account of his decision and how he arrived at it. There is no need to speculate, it's a matter of public record.

The US waged an illegal war on both Germany and Japan well before 1941. Also a matter of public record.

​I say this to show that what a lot of people here have already said, the victors write the history. This particular piece of obfuscation seems to be harder to dislodge than most, for reasons easy to guess.

I used to follow the 'party' line avidly until I started researching some basic questions: how did Germany rise from cripple to world power in just 6 years? The search for an answer lead to some fascinating and surprising sources and lead me to jettison some long established "facts" as mere propaganda.

IMO the largely unasked questions really eclipse the technicalities of what happened during the war, by which I do not mean to diminish their importance or pathos.

I was in a bar in Pattaya years ago.The girl behind the counter was a pleasing enough person.She could speak a little English.I Noticed a tattoo on her forearm.It was the picture of a well know south east London team.Underneath that was a guy's name.Underneath that was a Nazi swastika. When i told her what the latter symbolised,she simply didn't believe me. She told me that"Terry' had the same football tattoo.He told her that the Swastika was a very fashionable,must have tattoo that all the English and American women were wearing.

So,she is now marked for life,unless her next ferang will pay for laser treatment, by some,ignorant,stupid, English football thug.

What a prince.

as everyone should know by now, the swastika is a very old symbol. It was adapted by many religions and leaders over the centuries especially in the East.......it only has the Nazi connotations to those with a western perspective.

As said before "Sawasdee Khap" and "Swastika" have the same origins - are you going to stop Thais from saying this introduced greeting? They could return to the old one still in use in Laos "sabai Dee"

And also the later European adaptation and the original and emotive meaning behind the Hakenkreuz, which main stream historians and commentators don't seem to know about. It took me about a year of research to find it. The Finns still wear it with pride, and I can understand why.

Of course, what it means today to the masses is another story, and I'm not going to argue against that. All I'm saying is, the original meaning is almost utterly lost, which is a pity.

...I find it a strange mind set that Thailand is supposed to feel grateful/obligated for the outcome while Switzerland and the Irish Repubic who remained neutral in WW2 have suffered little condemnation.

Or take Italy that managed to be on both sides of both world wars. ?

TH

Fascinating. Please tell me which battles they engaged in on the central powers side in 1914?

Most Thais today understanding of WW2 comes from the book, film, and series "Sunset at Chaoprya" which is fairly accurate from a historical perspective.

Japan did indeed invade Thailand in 1941 in preparation for assaults on both Burma aND Malaya. The landings were opposed in all cases for less then one day until Phibun made his deal. This is of course 44 days less then France held out until Petain made his deal with Hitler.

Worth noting that France not only fought against the Allies on several occasions, but sent more Jews to the gas chambers then Brits/Commonwealth soldiers died on the Burma railway.

For some reason, Churchill was very upset with Thailand delivering the declaration of war against the UK and wanted severe reparations after Japan surrendered. But he never held a grudge against France and sent UK troops to Vietnam to make sure Uncle Ho did not succeed in setting up a independent country. We all know how that turned out.

Have noticed that many Brite degenerate Thailand's role in WW2,but are completely ignorant of France's role and how the UK made sure France was able to reclaim their colonies when the war was over.

TH

And Thailand was never accorded defence because it had refused infiltrations from Europe thus leaving it more or less incapable of defying the Japanese effectively. Not that the colonialized areas did better! Ensuing military action within Thailand was primarily to prevent further incursion into colonialized territory rather than to defend Thailand.

Interestingly that despite that Thailand is viewed as a developing nation with a significantly superior economy when compared to the now de colonialized neighbours. I find it a strange mind set that Thailand is supposed to feel grateful/obligated for the outcome while Switzerland and the Irish Repubic who remained neutral in WW2 have suffered little condemnation.

What on earth are you babbling about? This makes no sense whatsoever. Particularly from an historical point of view, never mind the phrasing.

If you want to find a more relevant anomaly from WW2, have a close look at the contribution of the Netherlands.

Regardless whether people believe in Christ or not, ask any Christian Thais if they know about the life story of Jesus, the political situation that involved the Romans at the time and events that led up to his crucifixion. You will find most don`t have a clue, they will answer, Jesus was a good man and the rest goes beyond their understanding.

These days young Thais think Aldolf Hitler is a Disney cartoon character who appears on tee shirts. Asking Thais about historic events, forget it. Most are not interest anyway, not even about their own history. Also Thais know nothing about their own family histories. Usually about grandparent levels then after that have no idea. They are born, end of story.

Not quite sure about the relevance of the xian fable in Asia, but if you were to ask the same questions about Siddhartha you'd have about the same response. Just ask them what he would have thought about their pork soup; blank stares.

Here is a link to a Youtube video that covers everything that lead to WWll and everything that happened in the West and the East. This link is to the first of the 13 episodes covering the whole thing. Very interesting to watch and if you watch it with her you can explain some of the details as it plays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mFG0Du_DKU

It doesn't even go into any detail of the profound importance of the Balfour declaration or the reality of the Lusitania sinking, much less the jostling over Mesopotamia which is the linchpin of the story. Victor red herring claptrap to disguise the reality of ... oh never-mind. They won convincingly, both the war and the propaganda. To this day.

The pop version of history for people who want to eat cake only.

Those who rely solely on TV and movies for their history will NEVER get the whole picture.....to do that you need to read and be guided by teachers...there are no shortcuts to understanding.

And you are that teacher I suppose. I have seen a few of your condescending posts now, clearly you fancy yourself as a well read intellectual, and you seem to believe that no other person in the Western World can possible understand the details of WW2 like you because you have lived here so long you are enlightened, everyone else is clueless in your eyes.

Total crap, you disastrously underestimate other peoples intelligence in this matter and accuse the West as being blind to the truth,, dear oh dear.

You cannot see the obvious fact that people are poorly educated (here) in this matter, despite all your years living in an "enlightened state", very strange. Wood for the trees perhaps? Polluted and lost the ability to think laterally? Feel the need to defend the locals? Maybe, who knows and who cares, enjoy your reading.

How bizarre? You added things he didn't say or allude to and create your own offence. Well played, own goal.

Very easy to explain:

People lived in poverty, no job,

no proper food, majority was hungry and thirsty, people felt cheated by immigrants and their political representatives.

And then finally, just one guy,

no sorry, hold on:

I meant a few guys, on yaba, who blamed it all on them and used the anger of the folks to get it started...

sounds familiar...?

(getting there soon again)

My 2 cents.

The correct currency for this wildly inaccurate and misleading synopsis.

The OP's question was: How to explain it to a Thai person!

Ahhh. Mea Culpa. I thought you meant Germans! Fair play, the Dust Bowl is as good a place to begin as any. Not sure the US elite were taking amphetamines, but I'm sure you have your sources.

My wife fully inderstands the significance of WW2 in general.And especially my disgust at the American /Thai commemoration over the River Kwai bridge!

It is not difficult to research the statistics of those who died at the hands of the Japanese in this particular situation alone.

US Americans were in a distinct minority. The majority by far actually were asian.

Thailand is no more deficient in educating than the USA , who were supplying Hitler until the Japanese embarrassed them with Pearl Harbour, portrays itself as the singular winner of the WW2 against both Hitler and Japan and thus the meritorious claimant to global dictatorship!!

Shove it , as hard as, right up!

Whilst I agree with the sentiment; they did win, palpably. Try telling another view to one of their hoi poloi; they can't hear you. The decent ones keep quiet. If that's not victory I need a new definition.

Pearl Harbour was no embarrassment. The principal muscle was well out to sea, and no mistake.

Very easy to explain:

People lived in poverty, no job,

no proper food, majority was hungry and thirsty, people felt cheated by immigrants and their political representatives.

And then finally, just one guy,

no sorry, hold on:

I meant a few guys, on yaba, who blamed it all on them and used the anger of the folks to get it started...

sounds familiar...?

(getting there soon again)

My 2 cents.

The correct currency for this wildly inaccurate and misleading synopsis.

Here is a link to a Youtube video that covers everything that lead to WWll and everything that happened in the West and the East. This link is to the first of the 13 episodes covering the whole thing. Very interesting to watch and if you watch it with her you can explain some of the details as it plays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mFG0Du_DKU

It doesn't even go into any detail of the profound importance of the Balfour declaration or the reality of the Lusitania sinking, much less the jostling over Mesopotamia which is the linchpin of the story. Victor red herring claptrap to disguise the reality of ... oh never-mind. They won convincingly, both the war and the propaganda. To this day.

The pop version of history for people who want to eat cake only.

Those who rely solely on TV and movies for their history will NEVER get the whole picture.....to do that you need to read and be guided by teachers...there are no shortcuts to understanding.

I can't resist quoting someone on youtube (genuine respect and regards to those to whom this does not apply, and I know some very well indeed): Arguing with an American about history is like arguing with a creationist about evolution.

Well, it made me laugh.

I had UK comprehensive school education 60's early 70's and history classes only went up to around the Henry VIII era so modern history (as it was then) was not on the syllabus. Surprised that PresburyPark had it on his syllabus as I thought the history syllabus was the same all around the country.... obviously I stand corrected!!

As for Kannot and Russia's millions of deaths ..... whilst some contributable by War I think that their very own Mr. Stalin in his quest to change the Peasant style country into an Industrial powerhouse to rule the world may have had a far greater contribution to the demise of many a Russian life..

..and there you have an example of someone who knows next to nothing about the deaths in WW2

Are you sure you are in the right forum cumgranosalum? You appear to have an intact frontal lobe.

Here is a link to a Youtube video that covers everything that lead to WWll and everything that happened in the West and the East. This link is to the first of the 13 episodes covering the whole thing. Very interesting to watch and if you watch it with her you can explain some of the details as it plays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mFG0Du_DKU

It doesn't even go into any detail of the profound importance of the Balfour declaration or the reality of the Lusitania sinking, much less the jostling over Mesopotamia which is the linchpin of the story. Victor red herring claptrap to disguise the reality of ... oh never-mind. They won convincingly, both the war and the propaganda. To this day.

The pop version of history for people who want to eat cake only.

More Thais, through forced labour, died on the Burma railway than all the Western POWs put together. The same applied to the ones who were forced to construct roads, such as from Mae Tent to Pai etc.

None of this was on any history curriculum during my educational years. Much was learned from post war movies, as previously stated. Also by my travels through Thailand. From my experience of the educational system in Australia, much is made of this and of WWI, Gallipoli, on ANZAC day, without much referennce that four times more Btits died there than the total nomber Aussies and Kiwis. Its just the collective inferiority complex that drives the Aussies nationalist need for international regocnition that requires a white only history like this.

Maybe a recognition of Mambo will be taught soon?

How much do you know about the history of Thailand?

Maybe the age gap between you and your tgf, and relevant years of both your countries history should be considered?

I often try to point out the %age of ANZACS at Galliploi vs French and British; to similar effect.

In answer to the OP; Simple: The US wanted an empire but couldn't beat Britain at sea. They engineered an illegal Asian and European war, and blackmailed a washed out British spokesman (hero in his early days certainly) to be the worst traitor in British history (that's saying something).

This post will probably be deleted because the victors claptrap is still widely held to be the truth despite the palpable absurdity to those who have bothered to check and do not have a vested interest in the establishment.

It's a sad story for us that inherited Churchill's price for hanging on to Chartwell and a place in history. Serving his mother's homeland interests more closely than his father's.

I think FDR was probably the biggest and most successful opportunist in history. Fair play to him; audacious and a winner, wish we'd had one.

I think that is succinct enough for a Thai.

Hmm, interesting opinion, stated as if it were fact.

Forgive me, I'm not British, I'm American, and I don't understand what you're talking about. I'm not denying what you say, don't get me wrong, and I'm not criticizing. I just really, really don't know what the deuce you're on about. Like, how was Churchill a traitor, again? For fighting the Germans? Hey, maybe you're right. Maybe Hitler knew Churchill was being blackmailed (for what, exactly? I have no idea), which might explain Dunkirk?

I am impressed, really. I was expecting much worse.

I can substantiate everything I said, plus a plethora more. I grew up Germany and England shortly after the war, to declare my interest and motivation.

I researched this question that I posed to myself (which led to the synopsis above); "Why was the only World Power between the world wars so threatened by a so recently totally emasculated Germany?"

The answer is mind boggling, simple and completely in the open to find. But most don't, because of the red herrings.

If you are genuinely interested in researching my sources for yourself; please PM me.

In answer to the OP; Simple: The US wanted an empire but couldn't beat Britain at sea. They engineered an illegal Asian and European war, and blackmailed a washed out British spokesman (hero in his early days certainly) to be the worst traitor in British history (that's saying something).

This post will probably be deleted because the victors claptrap is still widely held to be the truth despite the palpable absurdity to those who have bothered to check and do not have a vested interest in the establishment.

It's a sad story for us that inherited Churchill's price for hanging on to Chartwell and a place in history. Serving his mother's homeland interests more closely than his father's.

I think FDR was probably the biggest and most successful opportunist in history. Fair play to him; audacious and a winner, wish we'd had one.

I think that is succinct enough for a Thai.

that wasn't too helpful

Fair enough.

The US wanted an Empire.

Better?

but why would a 35 year old thai be interested in adolf, winston and josef?

Perhaps the answer to that questions is found in the various versions of the following quote

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

― Edmund Burke

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

That's why you've got Thais running around using the Nazi symbol and such for pop culture or business purposes -- because they have no idea what it means, or what occurred under those banners.

Perhaps that's also why some countries end up with a succession of failed governments and military dictators, because they never learn from past history that such things usually end badly for their people.

But hey, why pay attention to history, why look back at where we've been and how we got to where we are today. That's just complicated, boring old stuff... We really don't want to focus too much on what's gone on the past 85 years or so.

"“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

― Edmund Burke

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

which is precisely what the USA is trying to do now.

exactly how are the USA "precisely" repeating past mistakes?

I can answer that easily. The RN switched to oil in 1911. The Junkers built a railway to threaten supply. That's WW1 and all the subsequent wars explained.

The US is repeating, not a mistake, but a strategic interest in energy supply. End.

So there was no safety distance fence installed around the cages? Flog the operators!

And the parents allowed their daughter to stand on a chair in immediate proximity to the cage? Flog the parents!

Wild animals are NOT toys! When will stupid people finally learn that fact?

Agreed. A little bit of common sense goes a very long way. Why is it others responsibility to ensure your safety. You are aware they have tigers and elephants. These camps always have inherent dangers that come with them. I am pretty smart to know I won't get close to an enclosure that has a animal that is known for killing with one swipe of its paw or crushing a skull with its maw. I feel sorry for the child for having parents that weren't thinking.

I have some Great Advice for you, Get Life Insurance for your love ones, I live on Prachachuen & every single night a bike goes down, and people speed on this road, so the out come is never good. I rode a bike for 30 years in the US, 1000 BMW. Original owner, sold it when I moved here. Riding here means Death, only question is when, craziest drivers in the world are in Thailand, think about what your life is worth to you & your family before you decide to ride in Thailand. Good Luck.

I would recommend the yamaha 400 for a step up. Beautiful torque and stability at low revs and very good fun. When I have some spare cash, that will be my local runabout.

BTW. I'm off to chiang Mai for another glorious and fun run on the triumph. If I die, I'll let you know. Hasn't happened yet. Perhaps I'm too adaptable?

Had a recent crash due to poor road/motorway conditioning and ultimately my lack of experience of riding on that particular road i guess. 90kmph,quiet'ish motorway due to an early morning ride luckily I cam away with bruised knees, elbows and heels... wearing helmet gloves and armored jacket.

Now I ride my CB650 with armored leather/mesh jacket, gloves, helmet, shin high fast road/race boots.

Overkill maybe?

I took my first crash as a warning.

Whilst never having had an accident here, I have had a multitude of near misses in similar conditions. Good quality, full body armour, full face crash hat, boots and gloves are the absolute minimum gear for every ride (I hesitate at the jacket airbags that are now available). The Old Lady grumbles a bit, but I force her to wear same. Ultimately she gets the point, but it has to be reiterated from time to time, especially in hot weather.

I won't say here what my average speed is on the main roads, because of the saints who would judge me, but I don't hang about.

Haven't had time to read through the other posts, so I have no idea of the trend of the thread and whether I'm letting myself in for a p###-take. But as I posted before, Thailand is perfectly safe to ride in, providing you don't focus on 'should' with local drivers/riders. I still get miffed at some behaviour, but haven't had an accident in the 8 years I have been riding around Thailand. I am not a patient man, and as the old lady will testify, ride around at a fair pace, on both a proper bike and a moped.

"Thailand is perfectly safe to ride in". The thousands who die each year might disagree with you.

And the hundreds of thousands who have some bike nouse and know what I'm talking about might agree with me.

If, as a large proportion of posters do, you rely on 'should' as the basis of your opinion, then you have the spirit of the age and I am out of step.

Those of us riders, whom the comment was directed at, i.e the OP, who enjoy riding here understand the point. The OP was asking for a qualified opinion. I gave it.

Those unqualified to give an opinion, who don't ride, will focus on those who couldn't or were exceptionally unlucky.

Haven't had time to read through the other posts, so I have no idea of the trend of the thread and whether I'm letting myself in for a p###-take. But as I posted before, Thailand is perfectly safe to ride in, providing you don't focus on 'should' with local drivers/riders. I still get miffed at some behaviour, but haven't had an accident in the 8 years I have been riding around Thailand. I am not a patient man, and as the old lady will testify, ride around at a fair pace, on both a proper bike and a moped.

Send all those Muslim refugees to some happy willing Muslim country... Muslims have been the enemy of Christians since religion began (ask Saladin) ... Why are the doo goodies opening our doors to the Devil ? They already are robbing, raping and killing in Europe. Stop it now and send them away.

Conflating two entirely different topics. Religion? Refugees?

I agree they should go elsewhere, but not because of imaginary friends.

The inevitable baby photo ! Send them all back where they came from so that they can sort out their own mess instead of creating another wherever they are heading. This is all going to have an extremely negative effect on civilised countries

Agree about the photo..but their mess? I think Qatar mercenaries and a certain country's meddling, as per usual, may have a bearing? Sure, Syria played an international game, not entirely blameless - but at a political/ruling elite level, not the people.

If we start blaming the people, what charges will you have to answer?