BeautifulPain

Agreed upon the posts about the experts.

Another point I find interesting is the pedigree and credentials of the experts who have/will testify for the defence, now I know experts will sometimes testify in murder cases and such the defence when the defendant appears guilty. However is a case of this magnitude I don't believe these experts would testify on such a horrific case if they didn't believe what they were saying was the truth.

They would have a lot to lose if they were acting as " guns for hire " often in cases like this where experts offer testimony it's because they see they can make a difference due to their highly respected opinions.

We can all debate the fine points which can lead to some clarity.

For me it's rather simple - the prosecution stated we have DNA which PROVES the B2 committed this crime

Now if I say I have the Crown Jewels and challenge anybody to prove me wrong, somebody asks me ok show me and let's have that verified, I simply produce the Crown Jewels and say verify what you like.

If I don't produce the Crown Jewels quite rightly I will be lambasted and be called a liar.

The prosecution have never once produced clear and unadulterated DNA evidence.

Why is this ?

I see that report states they received clothing and other evidence for testing, It will be interesting to see if they find the same DNA profile on the hoe and the clothes, that's if they are able to compare and be sure they are the same profile.

It also states that DNA can disintegrate over time, we know Hannah's DNA was on the handle, so I would imagine whoevers the other profile is on the handle must be strongly linked to wielding the hoe.

Not many updates out yet from today hopefully more reports will pop up.

I still cannot believe they did not test the hoe after they believed it to be one of or the murder weapon. Seriously how in gods name is that even possible ?

The police got a confession so let's assume this was a true representation of what happened. Then they get the B2 to do a re enactment, clearly no matter if you think the B2 are innocent or guilty, unless you are a delusional blind man/woman neither confession or re enactment fits with the evidence that has been shown in court.

With the DNA on the hoe it shows us that both Hannah and David handled this but only ( from what I have read ) Hannah appears to have been attacked with it, why have we not heard/seen in any rtp reports / b2 confessions a legitimate scenario on how David was attacked?

The only reason I can see the B2 being guilty but lying in parts of the confession/re enactment is if they were protecting people who were also involved. I can see no other plausible reason for them to lie though I welcome any theories on the matter.

I still think the defence must explain certain points, something is missing that would convince me of their complete innocence, perhaps it will be forthcoming over the next few days, but regardless of that if I was a judge residing over this case I simply could not find them guilty based on what we have seen in the media.

A question for those who think we have seen a fair trial and sound evidence that points towards guilty - if this was NS/Mon or any of those guys / Sean Mcanna, that were on trial with this evidence presented and the discrepancies/mistakes by the RTP, can you honestly say you would still lean towards a guilty verdict ?

The prosecution have not presented independent DNA evidence we have not seen one credible report, if they had it it would have been their opening and strongest evidence. They would have shoved it straight out there basically say g to the defence ok you may have things to contest but contest this independent undeniable evidence of your clients DNA been found inside one of the victims which places your clients at the scene of the crime involved without doubt with one of the deceased.

If they had done that this case would been much simpler, why they didn't I can only speculate on but I'll save that for another post.

Chilli - yep fully agreed I don't think there has been bias shown towards the b2 from the international press, what they have reported in terms of incompetence at best corruption at worst I believe to be the truth.

Brit tim - that would have been great, hopefully we get an accurate report at the end of the trial, though I have my doubts, not to say the judges are involved in corruption, just that it must be a difficult task given the restraints placed on the judges.

I am grateful Chilli, I would just like to know more of what is being disclosed by the prosecution, but we cant have it all. Would have been much easier if they had somebody in an official capacity reporting also, but maybe there is not much to report.

That could be possible AleG, but then it is very foolish of the RTP to quote such rumours in the press, which you must agree was ever present at the beginning of this investigation. Which in my opinion makes it hard to gather and debate facts. The RTP should have relayed facts and reliable information only. They were quick enough to do so in relation to NS and M.

He does not have to clutter his twitter feed, My point is since I probably like many others read his feed as we trust his information, wonder if when the prosecution reveal something in court that could be a + for them it is not tweeted, Do you not see this as a fair observation ?

I am not bringing AH into it as such, His twitter happens to be where some factual information can be gotten, therefore I think its fair to say there is alot of tweets regarding when there is a + for the defence, and like I stated not alot regarding any other prosecution evidence/statements.

"Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public."

Wonder why they did not produce this in court, I would agree it seemed AH twitter reported things in the defence favour when they were revealed in court, and not alot in terms of what the prosecution said so maybe some things we do not know about, take the last day for the prosecution for example not much has came out about what went on for 10 hours +.

boomerangutang

Although you at times make some good points, some of your last few replies have been pure speculation and contradicting, I happen to think there is people who know what happened and are being quiet. But saying things like " The perps were likely experienced at rapes and maybe also at murders, so they knew something about the problems of leaving traces at crime scenes. " Then going on to dispute what you stated to me is foolish. I can see you have a real passion to find out what really happened here, but dont let that overrule rational posting/thinking.

What is known is David and Hannah were last seen at the AC bar, did they leave together, Hannah first or David first we do not know. Maybe David left first and Hannah tried to aid him, again pure speculation which doesnt help. This thread is about the trial of the B2 it gets littered with theories some of which are insightful and helpful, others are just plain stupid and annoying. It becomes rather infuriating for people who are trying to debate or get factual updates when baseless accusations litter the thread. Can we not at least debate using known facts or at least things that have been reported, perhaps if we focused on such things a clearer picture would emerge rather than a new theory every few days. Which only makes certain posters look like conspiracy theorists.

Instead of baiting and arguing with those who disagree why not engage in conversation and help each other see what opinion is factually supported, Maybe to some people being right is the most important thing here and not JUSTICE.

The hair only appeared blonde, it could have been light blonde , dark blonde ( which can appear brown )etc many different shades. Blonde haired people like myself also can have the odd strand of brown hair, likewise dark brown hair can have the odd strand of light brown which can appear blonde. If the report of Hannah clutching it in her hand is true and the hair was not pursued vigorously it's disgraceful.

Not a lot has been mentioned about the last witness, so why was he allowed to use up another full day? What exactly did he say? Either nobody is reporting what important things he disclosed or the rtp are plain and simple making it as difficult and prolonged for the defence as possible.

I don't know the Thai legal system very well, so I may be wrong here, but one thing that worries me is if the defence had some concrete evidence to refute the DNA then could they have not already of disclosed it ? Pretty much ending the prosecutions case. We shall wait and see but maybe they think they can discredit the allegations poking holes in the prosecutions case without refuting the DNA.

It would be up in the air then about the DNA, the only likely train of thought if the above is true I can see is if they truly think the rtp will plant / change DNA when re tested and don't want to risk having a result which they could not explain.

The b2 testimony will be the first card used by the defence which also could fit in with them not having had a test done which proves it was not the b2 DNA profile.

Also fellow posters beware that certain people maybe have more than one account bickering with each other to further derail, just a thought.

Still not 100% sure that the b2 are innocent of everything but I'm leaning towards a not guilty verdict, just hope justice prevails for everybody involved

I am in no way qualified enough to state whether I think Hannah was shot or not, but I'd imagine the relevant UK authorities are.

But if there was strong evidence to suggest there was a gunshot wound I'd be very surprised they did not intervene and stop the trial.

If what has been reported from the court is true it's obvious the b2 have not yet been shown to even know how these horrible murders happened. Unless they were blind drunk/high on drugs and simply can't remember which I find unlikely it leaves the RTP to explain why the 2 suspects don't know what happened.

It can't work both ways for the RTP either as in if they said they are lying over and over about how they committed the murders to explain it away they then must concede their is a possibility they lied when they confessed.

Ac bar stories or footage scare as I've previously mentioned, if there was any footage or sightings of the b2 in the bar I would bet a large amount we would have seen countless videos and witness testimony stating they were there, but instead we have silence in regards to any sightings or info on Hannah & David which is suspicious, almost as if everyone there has been told to remain tight lipped.

I feel there is still a few more twists and turns to come in these proceedings.

On a side note does anybody know if there was any belongings left on the beach or on David's person when the police processed everything ? I read that apparently the b2 went through the shorts pockets, wouldn't fit if there was any belongings on either David / Hannah when the police processed the scene.

Thanks, saved me searching it out, sorry if you misinterpreted my comment to mean I had news reports , I just knew it had been mentioned. Peoples opinions on Sean seem to differ, odd thing to lie about if it wasn't true but I'll accept he's not the best character to trust in.

No problem.

I will search out the info regarding the French witnesses later when I have time, fully agree its strange that there is not much in terms of reports on these statements. Even if it was before the suspected time of these crimes, Id imagine any argument/fighting in the area would be of interest.

There is so little from the AC bar, and it seems some people dont want anything investigated regarding it. However its the last proven place both victims were seen. Strange indeed

Catsanddogs -

It was discussed in the last thread that was closed, I can't provide a link, however it was said two French girls staying in the apartments / rooms near the scene had heard noise and some fighting . Apparently they then hid and I think didn't seen much else, I believe it was reported that they gavea statement to the RTP.

All of this discussion that seems to have blighted other threads and creeping up in this one about NS and his family / assosotiates is futile. There is certainly question marks regarding some of them but they are not on trial and it does not effect seeing justice done in this trial. The only way I see the defence losing is if they don't contest the DNA. If the B2 are acquitted then other past or potential suspects need to be re looked at.

I agree with whoever said the ac bar is the key in solving these crimes.

Something that has bugged me from day one is when looking at where the bodies where found , it appears there is accommodation very close by, now without being grotesque, I would imagine there was a lot of noise and commotion when these barbaric murders took place.. Surely people in said accomodation would have seen / heard something ( apart from the previously mentioned French 2 ) strange how it doesn't appear forthcoming as of yet.

It's a strange one from the defence, there is still confusion regarding the DNA they took from the b2 and whether they have those results and will play it as the trump card.

Rtp have looked very weak at best and corrupt at worst so far, it all rests on the DNA. If the defence do not contest it at all it will be very telling and another twist. Up in the air at the moment but I can understand the defence keeping everything close to their chests.

Watching on eagerly : )

Well a smoking gun needs to be produced that connects the B2, if its not DNA ( which lets be honest is looking very dubious at the moment ) maybe its a murder weapon ( The Hoe ) this is now even more dubious, as it seems they dont have any DNA evidence connecting the B2 to the hoe. Perhaps some of the B2's clothing; Not looking great so far but I do believe they have something like this to produce. They have no motive and no witnesses to the actual crime ( unless they have kept them under lock and key ) The police force had the B2 re-enact the crime when it was obvious they were been told what to do, even if some claim they were not, the footage of said re-enactment shows the B2 committing the crime in a different manner to current theory put forth by prosecutors. I dont think the missed checking of CCTV or other lack of detective work unrelated to the B2 will hold much sway with the judges because it only points to incompetence, coupled with sloppy, unprofessional and alleged fabricated evidence on the B2 however it paints a telling picture.

Even for the most staunch RTP defenders, its hard to deny they have massive holes. Taking the stand and sprouting baseless conjecture is absurd. " We have no reason to believe they were followed from the AC bar " - Any lawyer/barrister worth his salt would tare statements like this to shreds ( given the chance ) It would appear they cannot even collude together, with officers giving conflicting reports of that to their colleagues on the stand. All of which after being informed to go away and reassess the case they have put together.

I have seen some comments alluding to the fact that in many other countries this would have been thrown out, I also stated the same. But instead let me offer a different scenario; The accused are some higher up or respected Thai citizens - Would this trial still be allowed to continue ?

If I am honest I don't think NS has anything to do with these disgusting crimes, maybe people connected to him did, its hard to argue some things dont point to that. I think if NS was complicit something undeniable would have surfaced. Certain aspects in relation to his laywers/familys behaviour has been questionable but that could be for a variety of reasons which I am not informed enough to dissect.

Sean is an interesting character I have first hand accounts of him allegedly been involved with some illegal past times on Koh Tao. He may know more than what he said but it doesnt make what he may know fact. It could well be gossip he was told. I think he is or was a troubled individual who sprouted some pretty damming accusations which so far have no weight. Did he really know David as well as he pertains to? Did he meet him or even intend to? Perhaps he was in some other deep stuff on Koh Tao and seen it as his way out.

Anyways rant over, I just hope justice if brought upon whoever was responsable for this tragic loss of life, along with some small peace for all familys involved.

Am I right in thinking then that " Dodo " is his other son?

May I add referring to NO DNA EVIDENCE to collect, I wrote it ; they were talking about the alleged murder weapon ( the hoe )

Followed this since day 1, So many confusing and conflicting reports to make a true representation of the actual facts. One thing is for sure, whether you believe the B2 are innocent or not, if this was in many other countries it would of been thrown out due to the total incompetence of the Thai Police force.

Sky news now reporting Police Colonel Cherdpong " His inquiry had not investigated rumours of an altercation between MS Witheridge and the son of the Koh Tao headman, a local politician in the early hours of Sept 15th. Neither he nor his officers interviewed the headmans son, who is nicknamed Dodo, who was captured on CCTV in Bangkok later that morning "

He also said " He did not have the results of DNA samples taken from Dodo, and had not received a report from Bangkok of an interview with the youth. "

Police Colonel Cherpong stated after the defence team pointing out the two suspects were not wearing the same clothes as the alleged suspects caught on camera, allegedly running from the scene as " HE did not see that as relevant "

He was unable to confirm if the DNA samples collected from the scene, or from the bodies of the victims, had ever been sent to SIngapore for independent testing.

Seemingly officers also stated there were no viable fingerprints on it, and NO DNA EVIDENCE TO COLLECT - I can only think this must be a mistake otherwise well it takes the biscuit

If all of the above is true, I cannot fathom how this can be deemed as a competent and just investigation.