Simbaya

I've wondered the exact same thing, and can't find anything online about it.

 

But I do remember traveling in Africa during a presidential transition, and being somewhere like Malawi or Zambia, and when I went to the consulate (or embassy--can't remember), the President's picture had been changed right away.

 

 

Boy, I HAVE been "overthinking things."

 

And I don't mean this sarcastically, either.

 

Today, I "got it," the penny dropped, the light bulb switched on.  And the answer was so simple.

 

When I woke up this morning, I had the solution to my question: Why some western men seem to disparage us farang women, yet seek us out  (intellectually or otherwise) for "something on the side."

 

First, let me preface this with saying, I do know the difference between a man saying he'd like me to meet his wife sometime, ask me to a group activity, or otherwise indicate he's being entirely above-board with me.  Truly, I know the difference.

 

I'm talking about the invitation that just seems a little illicit.  The kind of invitation that I'm pretty sure that wife/GF won't be hearing about, OK?

 

Anyway, my epiphany actually came to me in the form of a Venn diagram, believe it or not!

 

Here's how I was overthinking it:

 

I was thinking in terms of how some FARANG men disparage us FARANG women.  I was thinking of how some FARANG men also seemed to seek out an "intellectual" (or other) affair with us, quite possibly not revealing this to their THAI wives/GFs.

 

And although these were not the exact same men, I knew they were *potentially* the same (kind of) man, but I couldn't quite see how this "love/hate" dichotomy worked.

 

That's because it's not a dichotomy--it's an inter-relationship.

 

Here's where the Venn diagram comes in.

 

Picture one circle representing farang men who disparage us.  The men who have told me to "go home," called me a fat pig, the men who've trashed me and other women on this and other forums.

 

Picture the other circle representing men who are (IMO) not being exactly fair or truthful to their wives by asking to take me out or call me (in what seems kinda like a down-low deal).

 

The intersection of these two circles is the crux of it:

 

MEN WHO DON'T FULLY RESPECT WOMEN (farang OR their Thai wives).

 

Well, DUH!

 

Why couldn't I see it was as simple as that?  

 

There are men like this everywhere, not just LOS (although I would argue we have a lion's share here).

 

There are women everywhere who are guilty of the same or similar behavior as well.

 

Again, DUH!

 

To all the men who have followed this thread and have felt offended, please remember that I never said all, most, or even many men engaged in these behaviors--I said SOME me do.

 

To the nice guys, please accept my olive branch.

 

I honestly have been trying to work through this phenomenon. Thinking aloud in this forum, receiving feedback--good and bad--help me see the glaringly obvious facts.

 

So thanks to everyone.  I sincerely mean it.

 

That's the last word from me.  I'm out!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, nottocus said:

Sounds like one of those "always the victim" people

Said the man who posted yesterday: "Empathy for someone I don't know?  Nah."

26 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

But I do try to get to know other Farlangs in Chiang Mai and have on many occasions connected with them and have became friends. How could I ever had invited you, I never even knew you existed until I saw this thread.

 

I want to throw a question at you and hope to get an honest answer:

 

You are out one lunchtime eating lunch in a cafe on your own and there are no other customers with lots of empty tables in that cafe. I walk in see you sitting there alone, say hi, and ask can I join you at your table? How would you react? An honest answer please.

That would be fine.  I often ask other singles to join me at my table.  However, if you were indeed married, and later asked for my number, that would be crossing a line for me. 

57 minutes ago, amykat said:

I think the OP isn't coming back. The thread was closed for a reason. It was reopened because there was interest in this general topic for other people. She made her points and she is finished as far as I know.  She seems to be new here so she has things to learn and experience as we all did and do.  I think you guys should leave her alone now.

 

I've been trying to make some points for the general good of expat women here, who might be isolated, and maybe for some men here who might have some wrong impressions of us ...or don't think it about it all, or who attack Nancy, or whatever.

 

I have often heard men say they feel afraid to approach women here, based on how they were treated at home (not welcome).  I have also heard them say they feel that they are judged, negatively, for being with young Thai women.  (That we hate that, we are jealous, we think other various things ...that I have never thought).

 

Maybe you have never noticed how women posters have been treated on the forum because you are not keeping track and are not sensitized to it, so I also mentioned that.  It is much, much better than it used to be.  It also is somewhat subject dependent.  Some women are still disguised as men here.

 

Things for you to think about.

Amykat,

 

I wasn't going to come back.  I thought I had asked my question pretty succinctly: "Why do some Western men seem to disparage Western women, yet sometimes seek us out to have their unmet needs addressed?"  I also said I struggled to understand this (generalized, yet still valid) question of this seeming love/hate dichotomy.

 

I decided to respond again because so many male posters went on to ask, "What is she trying to say?"  "I can't understand the vague rambling of the OP (paraphrasing)". Some even going as far to ask, "What are you (all) women posters trying to say?"  

 

I call this GASLIGHTING, and it a known form of abuse.  It may come in the form of, "You're crazy," "You don't know what you're talking about," "Chill out--relax," "You're too sensitive/can't take a joke."  

 

This sort of manipulation is used to silence women.  

 

I thank the two previous male posters who said my post was pretty understandable, and I was pleased to have that support.  There have been a few other male voices here that were understanding /attempting to understand, and accepting.  THANK YOU.

 

And thank you to the female posters for their opinions and insight as well!  MUCH appreciated.  

 

HOWEVER,

 

I think TV tolerates unacceptable levels of misogyny, and I can absolutely understand why some female posters write under pseudonyms.  I get it.

 

But the misogyny we experience here EVERY DAY is not OK.

 

I think it's up to moderators to be a little tougher, and for little boys to grow up.

 

Changing gears...

 

I want to address a couple of things, in no particular order:

 

Men posting on this thread have put words in my mouth, as well as other females here.  You are not our mind readers, nor do we need you to "mansplain" what we just said.  Most of us female posters have not done you that injustice.

 

Also, it's been questioned if I'm "creeped out" by Falang/Thai marriages--particularly those one with significant age differences.  The  answer is an emphatic NO.  LIve and let live.  I am especially touched to see long-time marriages where the western man and Thai wife appear to have grown old together.  Some of these couples are my friends.

 

But when a Western married/coupled man asks me for my phone number...come on, do you think in most cases the wife is OK with that?  Of course she isn't.

 

Knowing this, it feels like a form of marital cheating--and forget the bloke--I would NEVER do this to another woman!  It just seems like a sleazy move for a married man to ask me out on a date--however "innocent" it might appear.

 

Last, the term "intellectual whore" has been brought up debate.  I didn't write it to be "click bait" (although I think it did),  It simply came to mind as I was writing the post. Perhaps a better term might be "intellectual affair."  There are some pretty good online definitions for it, and better expresses what I was trying to convey.

 

We're starting a new year, folks, and it would be nice to see more civility amongst our community.

 

I'll continue to try if you will.

 

Simbaya

 

P.S.  THe GIF is meant in good fun.  Not ALL of you guys are scary aliens (!)

OK, 

 

Reply time.  I'm not a troll, and my experiences are real.

 

I think I included information about my appearance for three reasons:

 

1)  In an anonymous forum, I can be honest.  "Humble-bragging, " I'm afraid, is a fair counter-point, and I'm taking that one to heart.  But I included this info to paint a picture of who I am: not "old-old," fairly attractive, and someone who is approachable-looking.  I am not one of those ladies in baggy clothes who are almost the fraternal twins of the old, sloppy dudes we see every day.

 

2) I am a bit of a rare breed here: Single/ younger than most retirees.  I don't see many of "me" here.  Again, trying to paint a picture.

 

3) Wine--two glasses.  MIld disinhibition.  There, I said it!  But I also wrote my truth .

 

A couple of posters asked if these were the same men--those that disparage, and those that seek mental stimulation.  NO, not the same men, but (and this is a big leap, and a generalization, to be sure), they are *potentially* the same men.  

 

Many expat men left their country of origin to seek out a Thai wife or girlfriend.  IMO, some men here show a palpable, simmering disrespect for the women of their homeland.  A poster said I was projecting; however, I have often been projected on by Western men here.

 

I know many Thai wives or girlfriends would not mind their partner making a coffee date to chat--but I suspect many would not like it one bit!  This is why if feels like a form of cheating.

 

Think of the opposite situation:  a man is married to his cultural and intellectual counterpart, but seeks out "sexy time" with someone else.  Without moralizing, many would see this as a form of cheating--unless they had an agreement about extramarital relationships.  

 

Now flip it back:  A Western man is married to a Thai woman.  This woman shops, cleans, cooks and provides physical pleasure.  But something is missing....  And when I say "intellectual," please understand I am not denigrating Thai wives/GFs--I simply mean that said Western man misses talking about politics, current events, etc., that may not hold interest for his Thai partner.

 

And here is the dichotomy (IMO):  Contempt for, yet a lingering attraction to the Western woman.

 

Two last things (and this, probably, will be my final post on this thread).

 

A poster made a comment that straight women seeking out gay men was parallel to the relationships I've alleged.  WOW.  Yes--right, right right!  I am guilty as charged, and have some serious soul-searching to do.

 

Last, Nancy L--you underestimate your beauty!  You are one good-looking woman.   A lady who does facials back in US told me something I'll never forget:  true beauty resides in the eyes and smile.  Therefore, true beauty is timeless.

 

Nancy, you have true beauty in spades!

 

'Night all.

 

 

Readers,

 

I know this post will spark controversy.  Yet, I hope a civil discourse can ensue from this.

 

Moderators, please monitor this one closely, as I'm sure there will be many less-than-helpful comments...

 

i am a Western woman living in Chiang Mai.  Although here on a retirement visa, I fall into a slightly younger demographic than many.

 

I happen to be fair of face and have a nice figure.  I live in a Thai neighborhood, and have good relations with my neighbors.  I dress modestly, speak softly, respectfully and kindly do all.  I privately do a lot for the community, and ask for nothing back.

 

I am a "model" Western resident of Thailand.  

 

Yet,...

 

The thing I have noticed is how Western men respond to me.  

 

I have  been to LOS many times before making this my permanent home.  I did not come here with an expectation of marriage/relationship, and my eyes were quite open about my "lack of prospects."

 

That having been said, I did not expect to find:

 

1). Open hostility for me as a farang woman, and

 

2) Western men seeking me out as (for lack of better terms) as their "intellectual whore."

 

First, let me speak of open hostility.  I have had Western men tell me I should not be entitled to a retirement visa, as Thailand is "for them."  I have also been called a "fat cow," which is laughable.  I may not be a tiny Thai, but I look lovely, folks--unless one just hates the look of a Western woman.   This has wounded and surprised me.

 

Second, the "intellectual whore" business.  

 

Often this happens in queues: the airport, at Tops/Rimping, the Post Office, Immigration, waiting for transport, etc.  Western men will chat me up about Brexit, US elections, and world affairs in general.  They seem undernourished in speaking to a bright farang woman.  Sometimes there is a request for my phone number to "have coffee," or something similar .  Most always,, they have an Thai wife at home..

 

To me, asking for my time in this way seems to a form of marital cheating.  I feel I'm being asked to be their "intellectual whore."  It doesn''t seem right to me for these Western men (often showing open disdain for their female counterparts), to seek out someone like me for their unmet needs.

 

iI realize I may bring up the ire of Western men (i.e. I remind them of their ex-wife/boss/co-worker), yet this love/hate relationship is something I am struggling to understand.

 

In essence, why do some men show their contempt for me at times, only to ask for my intellectual company other times?

 

I ask for thoughtful, non-hateful replies only.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

I vote for Shiraz.  

 

There are actually two jewelers on Ratchadamnoen Soi 4--just 2 doors down from each other.  They are my neighbors and nice people .  

 

I still vote for Shiraz.  Nasser is as good as they come, and he's a joy to work with.  He also has some of the best stones in CM.

 

My best Thai friend is a tuk-tuk driver.  She assures me that drivers are VERY aware of the Uber presence, but no one is really feeling the heat--yet.  Her opinion is that some drivers may be edged out, but she hopes--although does not necessarily believe--there will always be a need for/presence of tuk-tuks.

 

What I didn't realize is that a great number (possibly the majority?) of tuk-tuk drivers rent their vehicles on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.  Call me naive: I assumed all the drivers owned these meager vehicles.

 

My friend told me that if Uber becomes the predominant mode of transportation, she's not sure what she will do.  Renting a car to become an Uber driver will eat up her profits (although we did discuss the fact that an Uber driver is "always working," versus driving around looking for fares, not to mention the "turf war" amongst tuk-tuk drivers, including having to pay off senior drivers to be allowed to inhabit the better locations).  

 

Nonetheless, she personally feels she would lose money as an Uber driver forced to rent a car versus a tuk-tuk driver forced to rent a tuk-tuk.  

 

 She also conceded that unless she owns a car outright (or has a decently financed one), in time, her current career will likely be impacted.

 

But she has a pretty pragmatic and future-thinking attitude: "People used to buy everything at stores and markets; now they buy online.  Things change.  I may have to change also."

 

I love my friend, but I personally hope that Uber will outpace tuk-tuks in time. Passenger safety is my primary concern, with air quality coming in a close second.

 

If and when that time comes, I have made a commitment to help her with getting the vehicle she needs. (And no--I'm not getting snookered.  I brought up the conversation, not her!)

 

 

4 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

I think discussing pussies is much more exciting then talking about the weather.

 

Then you and a certain Presidents-Elect might have a great deal to discuss.

4 hours ago, mesquite said:

Maybe we can start a cat section of TV for all the cat people.

 

Most probably your post is tounge-in-cheek, but what a perfect (purrfect) idea...

 

BTW, my cat has also become a heat-seeking missile during the cool season: nesting on the Truvisions and DVD box as well (and I've thought the same thing--can't cancel now!)

 

If we had a TV Cat Forum, we cat worshippers could let our freak flags fly, whilst simultaneously sparing the unwilling/unenlightened from our unfettered feline fetishes, and make the world a happier place.

59 minutes ago, Simbaya said:

DIplomatico, your point is very well taken.  It was, in retrospect, poor form on my part, and I will not repeat.  

 

Good feedback--thanks.

 

Ikn-- I don't know HOW many kms we drove!  It was a short hop from the Old City to  Chiang Mai Plastics, which would have taken me 15 minutes walking (if I didn't have a bad knee).

 

The should have taken maybe 7 minutes, but we meandered for  25+ minutes: high spots of  the trip included the Night Market area, Pantip Plaza--even the approach to the Iron Bridge!

 

I kept saying (nicely, of course), "This is the wrong way!  Go back, turn (right/left)!"

 

The poor fella just kept pulling over, checking his GPS and map.  I showed him my Google Map, gave him the address in Thai, and finally pulled out the old dog-eared Nancy Chandler in mild desperation...

 

He finally stopped and asked someone...still went the wrong way.  After one more stop and inquiry, we finally made it to my destination.  I gave him 60 baht.  I can't remember what his final fare tallied--something around 100 baht?

 

Poor guy...probably from a a small northern village/town, driving his brother-in-law's beat-up Toyota, trying to make a few baht... and I stiffed him.

 

I've got some merit-making to do!

 

 

And I STILL have a 5-star rating... headed to the temple now...

16 hours ago, Diplomatico said:

 

  The initial quote is an estimate based upon route and current traffic conditions.  It isn't the necessarily the fare you're going to pay....but it's usually close.  If you have a driver that takes - what you think - is an unnecessarily circuitous route, you can ask for redress via the app.  Many times, though, the driver deviates from what you think is the best route because the GPS he uses shows traffic blockages.  Taking a screen shot of the fare quote isn't going to help you in a fare dispute if there's traffic, road detours, weather, etc.

 

  Stiffing the driver is poor form.  As you probably know, the drivers provide a rating for the passenger (you) just like you do for them.  At some point, if your passenger rating is low enough, drivers will simply refuse to accept Uber's offer to respond to your request for transportation.    

 

  All of that said, I did have a similar experience to yours where I thought the driver took an unnecessarily out of the way route and disputed it via the app.  Uber refunded about 2/3 of the fare after reviewing my message.

 

  Not saying your perception of the driver's route was incorrect....just saying you should be mindful of how you address the perceived inequity.

DIplimatico, your point is very well taken.  It was, in retrospect, poor form on my part, and I will not repeat.  Good feedback--thanks.

 

Ikn-- I don't know HOW many kms we drove!  It was a short hop from the Old City to  Chiang Mai Plastics, which would have taken me 15 minutes walking (if I didn't have a bad knee).

 

The should have taken maybe 7 minutes, but we meandered for about 25 minutes: high spots of  the trip included the Night Market area, Pantip Plaza--even the approach to the Iron Bridge!

 

I kept saying (nicely, of course), "This is the wrong way!  Go back, turn (right/left)!"

The poor fella just kept pulling over, checking his GPS and map.  I showed him my Google Map, gave him the address in Thai, and finally pulled out the old dog-eared Nancy Chandler in mild desperation...

 

He finally stopped and asked someone...still went the wrong way.  After one more stop and inquiry, we finally made it to my destination.  I gave him 60 baht.  I can't remember what his final fare tallied--something around 150-170 baht?

 

Poor guy...probably from a a small northern village/town, driving his brother-in-law's beat-up Toyota, trying to make a few baht... and I stiffed him.

 

I've got some merit-making to do!

 

 

2 hours ago, sharktooth said:

 

When you were overcharged how did the taxi driver work it out and was the original quoted price still showing on the app?

I paid the driver 10 baht over my quoted price, but no more.  I gave him the money and got out--no negotiations. No, I could not retrieve the original quote .  It disappeared once the driver was en route.  (Hence, my suggestion to screen-shot the quote initially given).

 

The funny thing was my subsequent email receipt showed the amount the driver TRIED to charge me--not what I paid.

 

I guess the driver sucked up the difference-- as well he should have. A well-meaning chap, to be sure, but not a local, probably his first day, with an inability to use GPS or read a map...

 

But that was only one bad ride out of many.  And many of the drivers are highly proficient in English, as a number of them I've met are professionals (nurses, teachers, engineers) working part-time on the side.

I can only say that Uber has greatly improved my life.  

 

Only one bad ride (clueless driver, many [unintentional, I believe] detours) for which I refused to pay the inflated rate.  Uber did not retaliate in any way, and I reported the driver on their app.

 

My only suggestion is to take a screen-shot of the quoted rate, or pay in advance via credit card, to assure/insure you get the proper fare.

 

But all-in-all, I have only good things to say.  It would be overstating to say it's "changed my life;" however, it would be an understatement to say it's a "nice addition" to existing transportation options.

 

My truth?  Uber has greatly improved my life.

11 hours ago, Pattaya28 said:

Surely all medical staff, Doctors and Nurses should know this. 

After all, they all are fully qualified.

Do Dentists get refresher courses ?

Do the Army get refresher courses how to shoot people ?

Do Police get refresher course how to give a ticket to a helmetless motor-bike rider ?

Do Baht-Bus driver get refresher courses in how to be polite to passengers ? Yes, but makes no difference.

Do BKK taxi drivers get refresher courses how to charge their passengers an honest fare ? Yes, but the opposite happens.

 

My confidence is shattered by learning medical staff need a refresher course.

Refresher courses are a good thing.  Continuing education is a vital part of keeping medical personnel on their toes.

 

Would you prefer they did NOT have continuing education, properly timed, to address the "seven deadly days?"

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

NancyL has clout and cred and as expat havens goes, Chiang Mai ain't chopped liver! (Northern sausage maybe but not chopped liver.)

 

How about all the Chiang Mai NancyL admirers show your electoral power and mosey along to this year's POTY contest and follow the good guidance of NancyL and VOTE FOR NAAM!

 

 

Get about 20 votes from the Chiang Mai forum and you just might put NAAM over the top!

 

Feel the power of NancyL ... in real life, in POTY, in pictures of cats ... 

 

(Please note ... this year, it is impossible to change your POTY vote, once cast. Also do not click on show results before voting because then you won't be able to vote for anyone. So if you've already voted or clicked show results ... NEVER MIND.)

 

 

 

Feelin' the power...A vote for NAAM it is.

 

How 'bout the rest of you cool CM cats?

17 hours ago, Johpa said:

 

Alas, some are born with genetic predispositions for irrational behavior, anti-social behavior, or are predisposed towards reacting to alcohol with uncontrolled rage. But yes, some are raised to be anti-social. It is not all one or the other but a continuum between nature (genetics) and nurture.



Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

Alas, the older I get, I lean nature > nurture more and more.  

 

PET scans and other brain imaging technologies are showing definable differences in the brains of sociopaths (sorry--"antisocial personality disorder") and pedophiles, to name only two.

 

Sociopathy (sorry--"APD") has a strong genetic/heritable component, and that's been known for decades.

 

Of course, there is a complex interrelationship happening between environment and DNA...but sometimes, like Lady Gaga sang, I speculate that some folks were just "born that way."

 

Ironically, before reading this post, I watched a fascinating documentary on narcissism, which mused a bit about possible heritability factors.

 

Even more ironically, I'm watching "Gattica" (sci-fi/ thriller/cautionary tale about the implications of genetic engineering in search of human perfection) for the first time on television right now...

 

Maybe I'll cap off the evening with a re-watch of "Bad Seed!"

 

 

I am loving this thread!

 

And yes, her good work far, far transcends what she gives to this forum.  In fact, this is probably one of her "lesser" feats.

 

She's truly a "positive poster," and she takes the occasional negative blowback with grace.  She just gets on with doing what needs to be done.

 

Nancy L in 2020!

Dear Nancy L,

 

At the year's end, I'm looking back on what I feel thankful for.

 

I am thankful for you.

  

Even before I arrived, you helped me.

 

Your impartial, factful, non-judgemental posts have informed so many of us, and I thank you.

 

I must admit that I have felt intimidated by you, and have thought of you as a "queen bee."  But you know what?  That reflects so much more about me, my insecurities, MY issues (Jung--"shadow?"),  than the consistent good work you have done for us--and Thailand.

 

If any of us took HALF the time to be as kind, informative and as loving as Nancy L, Thai VIsa would be a better place.

 

Merry Christmas, Nancy.

 

You have many years yet on this earth, but I want to acknowledge you as someone who has lived a "life well lived."

 

K

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all who contributed here.  I know this sounds kinda funky, but I haven't figured out how to respond to an individual within a forum post.

 

I'll get that figured out,

 

See my previous post.  I hope to bring information, kindness and (hopefully) humor to TV in the future.

 

Nancy L (love ya, Nance) has been my unknowing mentor.

 

In the days of impending Trump-dom ( and it will affect us all, irrespective of our nationalities),  I want to make a concerted effort to be kind, informative, and good..

 

Trolls, troll away, but know that integrity (mainly) prevails.

 

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

It's not exactly what I'm looking for, but THANK YOU!

 

Your response is what I value with our forum.

 

Please, if possible, trolls step back, and let us help, instruct and advise each other on our forum.

 

I have stayed away from TV because of the angry men on this site who have little to do but disparage those of us that need help, want to share, or have specific questions, 

 

But I have decided to swim with the sharks in 2017, so look out!

 

HAPPY HOLIDAYS for everyone on TV!

 

We, as a community, overall stand tall, with kindness and understanding as our watchwords.

 

Wishing the best for you and family as we approach 2017!

 

 

 

 

Let us never take for granted the available and enviable health care options here.

 

LOS was not my first early retirement choice, but you can't dispute our many options for good care.

Slightly off-topic, I know...

 

I was browsing the classifieds this morning (I think it was Baht and Sold, but definitely one of the Facebook groups), and I saw someone was selling a tortilla press in her moving sale.  I believe the seller is in Nimman.

 

I've heard presses are a little hard to find, so I figured that you--or somebody reading this--might benefit.

 

My embarrassed apologies if presses are, in fact, "dirt easy"to procure!

HI all,

 

I decided I want to buy a last-minute Christmas gift for my neighbor (and me, too, as we'll share it between our two townhouses).

 

I'm looking for a simple, slab-type bench.  The photo enclosed is a mere approximation--but you guys know the type I've seen around: rugged, sometimes reclaimed wood, nothing carved or fancy.

 

I half-heartedly asked around about this a month ago, and was told by Thais that these types of benches run pricey.  Nonetheless, I'd like to know what the options are.

 

Anyone have a line on this type of bench?  Do you want to sell one, or know someone who does?

 

Thanks, and Happy Holidays to all!