Koosdedooes

Incidentally, nice back reference to a thread at least a year before you supposedly joined. What was your old username?

I don't have an old user name, Just because I haven't long joined TV, doesn't mean I haven't read posts on TV over many years as a guest, you do know you can read the posts and threads on TV without actually joining or participating don't you ?

Yeah, sure. We're all buying that.

Who is we ?....buy what ever you want, share it if you wish

Incidentally, nice back reference to a thread at least a year before you supposedly joined. What was your old username?

I don't have an old user name, Just because I haven't long joined TV, doesn't mean I haven't read posts on TV over many years as a guest, you do know you can read the posts and threads on TV without actually joining or participating don't you ?

and it's infectious.

Possibly if everyone is sticking dirty and contaminated utensils in each others food while sharing

How do they know they're not supposed to share your dish? Do you make a little speech about how you're ordering this and nobody else is allowed any?

Maybe he should leave an umbrella on the table to indicate its his, I believe in BKK this is an accepted protocol ?

Dorothy, you're not in Kansas anymore.

You have to decide if your smooth relationships with your "company" are more important than your dyed-in-the-wool eating habits. I think your refusal to integrate into your friends' culture is seen as snobbish. "Eating culture" is huge in Thailand, and meals are a group-relationship event--much more than in Western culture. When you refuse to eat their style and their food, you are saying much more than you realize about yourself and about your desire (or lack of desire) to connect with them.

I enjoy my Thai friends, and they are comfortable around me. It came at a price--among many things, learning to eat the way they do, and even learning to eat Thai dishes that I formerly didn't care for. But I value relationships over "having it my own way" in many areas of life--especially when trying to connect across cultures.

oh dear....

OP I don't believe 75K is sufficient for your needs, you could supplement your income by using your skills, to create a website and use click bait to get additional income from unsuspecting people who look at your site and click on various links

hope this helps

I hate having to share. They order a bunch of weird crap and I order something I like. Then they proceed to eat all of mine.

Take your fork or a steak knife, and stab them in the hand....it works promise

It will be strange for some Thai people but a lot of things we do are strange.

You can order a 'lat khao' which is a dish over rice on one plate and it will be less weird in their eyes.

Should have said comments were made by expats.

I dont usually eat Thai food with expats we eat farang food. Take a burger with you next time

Often thought about it just to piss them off. ☺

I am not one for communal grazing, so irrespective of the company, I normally order for myself and if anyone goes near my plate ,including my Mrs, they will risk getting a fork stuck in the back of their hands....If you want what I am eating order your own..

It will be strange for some Thai people but a lot of things we do are strange.

You can order a 'lat khao' which is a dish over rice on one plate and it will be less weird in their eyes.

Should have said comments were made by expats.

Cheap Charlies ?.... you ordered steak and they order a bowl of mamma noodles or plain white rice and were wanting some of your steak for free in typical cheap charlie fashion...if they were expats just tell them to go f themselves...they are those who have gone native and believe they are Thaier than Thai...?

The poster was trolling. He repeatedly asked for the same impossible to have data, an all encompassing quote from Thai law and that is virtually impossible to obtain, even knowledgable and skilled lawyers would likely have difficulty obtaining all the related laws on this subject and presenting it succinctly.

The poster also chose to interpret my opinion as being an extract from Thai law which it clearly wasn't and it was apparent to most people that it was not, otherwise a link would have been supplied to confirm the source, as per TVF rules.

The same poster also chose to believe that a web site that sells first responder courses was the definitive legal authority on this topic which clearly it is not, more likely it is biased would be my guess.

Also ignored were the use of words such as normal, normally and maybe when stating there is no liability - overlooked also is the fact that Thailand is notorious for applying laws differently in different location and differently based on whether a Thai or a foreigner is involved.

If indeed the poster was not trolling then he has never been to Thailand and does not understand the way things here work, if that is not the case them he is incredibly naive and gullible.

....flim flamery again

that is virtually impossible to obtain, even knowledgable and skilled lawyers would likely have difficulty obtaining all the related laws on this subject and presenting it succinctly.

But yet you present a statement of fact from "Thai law" which states "unless you hold a first responders certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and the person dies you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or Foreigner"

And your not even a skilled lawyer

As regards you last nugget of wisdom and your rather childish remarks, some facts which will illustrate for far detached you are from reality:

15 years working for an MNC in Thailand in a managerial position, hold advanced first aid certification, Emergency response management trained including legal aspects pertinent to Thai legislation, and serve as the sites on scene incident commander, responsible for amongst other things co-coordinating both internally and externally with Thai agencies and government structures if so required in times of emergency.

I will confess I am not familiar with all Thai HSE legislation in the Thai language, but I am pretty familiar with English language versions especially mandatory training requirements for personnel serving in various roles etc and I am certain "First Responder certificates" are not mentioned anywhere, let alone any references to liability's or consequences for individuals...

But once again nice to see your making up categorical statements of fact about things you don't have clue and making up conspiracy theories about people, may I humbly request you get back on your bar stool in that rather nice city of Chang Mai and read the next engrossing chapter of " Myths and Urban Legends " by Dick H. Farang

Do you have any idea how stupid you sound when you keep repeating sentences such as, "you present a statement of fact from "Thai law" which states, "unless you hold a first responders....", when only you think it's from Thai law and you've been told repeatedly that it isn't! That fact notwithstanding my statement stands as 100% true, you CAN be held liable.

If your MNC offers reading and comprehension lessons in English, enrol at first opportunity.

oh dear no constructive response or debate so hurl insults ...back to the bar stool for your...if you knew any thing about the English language, you would have noted I put "Thai law" in inverted commas and understand what that actually means

The poster was trolling. He repeatedly asked for the same impossible to have data, an all encompassing quote from Thai law and that is virtually impossible to obtain, even knowledgable and skilled lawyers would likely have difficulty obtaining all the related laws on this subject and presenting it succinctly.

The poster also chose to interpret my opinion as being an extract from Thai law which it clearly wasn't and it was apparent to most people that it was not, otherwise a link would have been supplied to confirm the source, as per TVF rules.

The same poster also chose to believe that a web site that sells first responder courses was the definitive legal authority on this topic which clearly it is not, more likely it is biased would be my guess.

Also ignored were the use of words such as normal, normally and maybe when stating there is no liability - overlooked also is the fact that Thailand is notorious for applying laws differently in different location and differently based on whether a Thai or a foreigner is involved.

If indeed the poster was not trolling then he has never been to Thailand and does not understand the way things here work, if that is not the case them he is incredibly naive and gullible.

....flim flamery again

that is virtually impossible to obtain, even knowledgable and skilled lawyers would likely have difficulty obtaining all the related laws on this subject and presenting it succinctly.

But yet you present a statement of fact from "Thai law" which states "unless you hold a first responders certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and the person dies you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or Foreigner"

And your not even a skilled lawyer

As regards you last nugget of wisdom and your rather childish remarks, some facts which will illustrate for far detached you are from reality:

15 years working for an MNC in Thailand in a managerial position, hold advanced first aid certification, Emergency response management trained including legal aspects pertinent to Thai legislation, and serve as the sites on scene incident commander, responsible for amongst other things co-coordinating both internally and externally with Thai agencies and government structures if so required in times of emergency.

I will confess I am not familiar with all Thai HSE legislation in the Thai language, but I am pretty familiar with English language versions especially mandatory training requirements for personnel serving in various roles etc and I am certain "First Responder certificates" are not mentioned anywhere, let alone any references to liability's or consequences for individuals...

But once again nice to see your making up categorical statements of fact about things you don't have clue and making up conspiracy theories about people, may I humbly request you get back on your bar stool in that rather nice city of Chang Mai and read the next engrossing chapter of " Myths and Urban Legends " by Dick H. Farang

For the avoidance of doubt: a supposed legal quote from a web site that sells First Responder Courses in Thailand has been posted, that however is not necessarily the full extent of the law on this subject, almost certainly it is not, neither is what was posted entirely accurate either. It's also worth reminding here that whilst my earlier quote was never intended to directly reflect Thai law on this subject, the associated legal pitfalls of helping are outlined in post 28 above.

Show me the paragraph from the law which states "a first responder certificate is required" and if a person dies under the care of someone who doesn't have a first responders certificate, the person providing the first aid or assistance will be held liable...you exact quote is below for reference

if you cant please and stop flim flamming...you made a statement of fact and you cant prove said statement of fact...

your not a lawyer so you cannot comment on any possible legal pitfalls as your not qualified to do so.

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Troll, Mods!

pathetic...

For the avoidance of doubt: a supposed legal quote from a web site that sells First Responder Courses in Thailand has been posted, that however is not necessarily the full extent of the law on this subject, almost certainly it is not, neither is what was posted entirely accurate either. It's also worth reminding here that whilst my earlier quote was never intended to directly reflect Thai law on this subject, the associated legal pitfalls of helping are outlined in post 28 above.

Show me the paragraph from the law which states "a first responder certificate is required" and if a person dies under the care of someone who doesn't have a first responders certificate, the person providing the first aid or assistance will be held liable...you exact quote is below for reference

if you cant please and stop flim flamming...you made a statement of fact and you cant prove said statement of fact...

your not a lawyer so you cannot comment on any possible legal pitfalls as your not qualified to do so.

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

Ketchup please!

Seriously that sounds like the sort of crazy law that might exist in the 'sue over anything and everything' American society - but I'm rather doubting it is the case in Thailand, or many other countries for that matter..

its only a law in the imagination of the poster who wrote it...no such law exists, the relevant extract in Thai law, (in English) has been cited and it says nothing of the sort

I agree but the digital nomads seem not to understand that aspect!

As far as what help a person might give goes: calling ambulances, directing traffic, blocking oncoming traffic etc are all normal things that anyone might be expected to do without even thinking. Whether or not medical intervention would be a step too far would surely depend on the circumstances - stemming the flow from a severed artery, almost certainly yes and I suspect that would be an automatic reactive response - moving a person in any way, probably not - taking a back seat where it was viable to do so, almost certainly.

which digital nomads are your talking about...you seem to have gone on a tangent...old boy

So where the bit that states "Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner." ?

What is written is the complete opposite to what you said..in other words you have no source for any of your assertions...consensus among farangs on TV means nothing

Which part of "may", "normal" and "not normally" did you not understand!

This is about the law in Thailand, how it is interpreted, whether it is interpreted uniformly across all provinces, whether it is applied equally to foreigners and locals and whether the law is applied identically in the CBD of Bangkok and in the back of beyond in Nakon Nowhere.

As a resident foreigner it is right to be concerned and to err on the side of caution on this issue and until I see a more substantive document or source that confirms there is categorically no liability on uncertified first responders who attempt to intervene in a medical emergency, I'm sticking with my long term belief that this not the case.

NOTE: it's worth reading the Red Cross document I posted earlier because it shows that fear of legal fall out is one of the main drivers that prevents people from helping in medical emergencies, this being true in a range of countries including the UK! It goes to recommend that removing that liability is important but even more important is that its removal is communicated to a doubting public.

"may", "normal" and "not normally" would be used "legal terms" when there are a multitude of possible outcomes dependent on a set of given circumstances, in other words the possible options are too numerous to list.... that is all these terms mean in this set of circumstances, in other words if there was charge of some sort lodged against an individual a court or a judge would determine whether the persons actions where in line with or went beyond what would be considered being a "good Samaritan"...that all it means...

you stated categorically

"Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner." "

You have provided absolutely no links or information to prove your assertion and what you have linked to actual says the opposite in reference to Thailand,

what happens in the UK is irrelevant, but given the levels of the nanny state HSE Nazi types in the UK, what you have stated is not surprising, but the fact remains the debate is Thailand not the UK.

now show me an extract from Thai law which states "a first responder certificate is required in Thailand", and secondly show me the extract which states should a person not have a first responder certificate when providing first aid at an accident scene, and patient or injured person subsequently expires..person providing the assistance will be held liable...?

What is does say if you have first aid training you are legally obligated to assist, it makes no mention of a first responders certificate or any form of certificate, it just says training...

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

Without spending a lifetime searching for proof, the following (not necessarily 100% reliable source) provides some clarification:

"Good Samaritan Laws (or related local laws) are enacted to encourage people to come to the aid of others. In general, they protect individuals who voluntarily offer assistance to those in need and are created to provide immunity against liability.

Often, a Good Samaritan law imposes no legal duty to help a stranger in need. However, local laws may vary on this point and in some areas people are required to provide aid. There may not be Good Samaritan laws in your local area and it would be wise to determine the extent and use of Good Samaritan laws in your region.

To be protected by a Good Samaritan law, typically you should;

• Only provide care that is within the scope of your training as an Emergency Responder
• Ask for permission to help - child, parent or guardian
• Act in good faith
• Do not be reckless or negligent
• Act as a prudent would do so
• Do not abandon the patient once you have begun care.

  *The exception to this is if you must do so to protect yourself from imminent danger

Thailand Public Health & Safety Laws

Q. Since arriving here, I have heard that there is no Samaritan law shielding those trying to help someone who is injured. Is this true? Are you legally responsible for trying to help someone who may die if you do nothing? My first instinct would be to try to help someone if possible. However, if this opens you up to lawsuits, I would be very hesitant to help except in the most dire circumstances. Therefore, I thought it might be helpful to get a professional opinion.

Thai Lawyer's Response

According to the Criminal Code, Section 5, 5th paragraph, if you have training in first aid that enables you to save lives, you are by law required to help, but if you are a normal Samaritan with no training you are not legally required to help. You normally are not responsible of the outcome if you tried to help.

Q. I have been CPR/First Aid/Aed certifed in thailand 3 times. I will always keep my AED cert. Each time I recrert for CPR, we are told, even as a 'layperson' holding an AED cert, legally here, we are not allowed to use them. When I had a buisness 2 years ago, I wanted one in, i was told the same thing by the lawyer. I have just been told that this is a lie, that an layperson (untrained professionally) who is Certified to use an AED, it is not illegal here. Has this law changed since Nov 2013?

Thai Lawyer's Response

A layperson can use an AED legally and you will not have any legal implications, but if you are a doctor then you will be legally liable."

https://www.firstaidtrainingbangkok.com/about/good-samaritan-laws.html

Potential issues resulting from the above:

- whether certification and training from outside Thailand is acceptable.

- if the rules vary from province to province, the above suggests that they do.

- Use of the words, "not normally" and "normally" give rise for concern.

From previous debates on this subject I believe consensus has always been that there is liability and if I recall correctly, Moderator Tywais has further information on the subject.

So where the bit that states "Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner." ?

What is written is the complete opposite to what you said..in other words you have no source for any of your assertions...consensus among farangs on TV means nothing

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

As I thought the poster got his assertion from ""Thailand Myths and Urban Legend Book" by Dick H. Farang "

Below is the answer from a lawyer...

https://www.firstaidtrainingbangkok.com/about/good-samaritan-laws.html

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

"Thailand Myths and Urban Legend Book" by Dick H. Farang ?

I am in a strange position and nobody in Thailand has been able to give me (or my employer who is a good friend) a definitive answer.

I am not working in China per se, I am acting as a consultant.

Where we have become lost is the Thai revenue laws state a non - resident must pay tax on income from sources in Thailand.

I reside in Thailand but as per the 180 days I am classed as a non-resident.

My employer is Bangkok based so I presume that "income from sources in Thailand" is applicable to me.

If I have to pay tax I need a WP.

If I was paid to an offshore account there would be no problem but my boss has only just started his company and he is concerned with any irregularities that may attract the attention of the Thai authorities.

Any advice greatly appreciated,

Cheers,

BB

Dont be an employee. Just ask them to give you a purchase order and work as a contractor.

its not as simple as that, unless one has a legal entity and invoices as a company, even with a PO he would still be paying income tax as an individual, this only works it one is invoicing company to company

Paying income tax where? There is not any work performed in Thailand. China is a different issue his concern is about Thailand.

As he stated "My employer is Bangkok based so I presume that "income from sources in Thailand" is applicable to me."

could become the problematic one...

hence the reason one invoices company to company..then he is not employed by a company in Bangkok, he is employed by his company in HK, Singapore or where ever he chooses the company to be, his company is providing services to a Thai company in China, he is not providing the service as an individual or "employee" therefore one can say with certainly there are no possible personal income tax issues as regards Thailand were he resides.

Never heard of the panama papers ?....why do you think people were setting up all these offshore companies ?

Will look into the advice regarding setting up a company in HK.

Thanks for the assistance,

Cheers,

BB

Given your working in China and HK is part of China, maybe Singapore a better option or BVI possibly ?..just a thought..

ie your working in China for a Thai company, being paid from Thailand back into "China" might be messy ?...a company structure completely divorced from both Thailand and "China" may be better..

I am in a strange position and nobody in Thailand has been able to give me (or my employer who is a good friend) a definitive answer.

I am not working in China per se, I am acting as a consultant.

Where we have become lost is the Thai revenue laws state a non - resident must pay tax on income from sources in Thailand.

I reside in Thailand but as per the 180 days I am classed as a non-resident.

My employer is Bangkok based so I presume that "income from sources in Thailand" is applicable to me.

If I have to pay tax I need a WP.

If I was paid to an offshore account there would be no problem but my boss has only just started his company and he is concerned with any irregularities that may attract the attention of the Thai authorities.

Any advice greatly appreciated,

Cheers,

BB

Dont be an employee. Just ask them to give you a purchase order and work as a contractor.

its not as simple as that, unless one has a legal entity and invoices as a company, even with a PO he would still be paying income tax as an individual, this only works it one is invoicing company to company

I am in a strange position and nobody in Thailand has been able to give me (or my employer who is a good friend) a definitive answer.

I am not working in China per se, I am acting as a consultant.

Where we have become lost is the Thai revenue laws state a non - resident must pay tax on income from sources in Thailand.

I reside in Thailand but as per the 180 days I am classed as a non-resident.

My employer is Bangkok based so I presume that "income from sources in Thailand" is applicable to me.

If I have to pay tax I need a WP.

If I was paid to an offshore account there would be no problem but my boss has only just started his company and he is concerned with any irregularities that may attract the attention of the Thai authorities.

Any advice greatly appreciated,

Cheers,

BB

I suppose thing is your employer has taken the cautious route not having the definitive answer and gotten you the WP which is a good thing, but to be honest if your not physically working in Thailand you don't need the WP from an immigration/Labour office point of view, the taxation thing is something else and yes can see where that may get messy as regards the 180 day rule and income tax on Thai sourced revenue in your case.

If your acting as a consultant in China for a Thai company, wouldn't it be easier to set up your own company in say HK or Sing and your company in HK/Sing invoice the Thai company for services rendered in China ? and that will get you round the income tax thing in Thailand as its companies invoicing each other ?

ie "Ballbearing consulting Ltd HK" and invoice through that ?

I recently obtained a WP to work as a Quality Co-ordinator.

This is for heavy mining machinery manufactured in Thailand (and other SE Asian countries) and then transported by ship to Australia.

My role has always fallen under "Engineering" but when my employer tried to classify me as an engineer (as there was no other applicable classification) they stated based on my resume showing I do not have a degree I could not be classified under engineering.

They have put me under "Power Transmission" on my WP despite the fact I have nothing to do with power stations.

The thing I find a bit confusing is I earn 10 x what a degree qualified Thai engineer earns but that apparently was not acceptable,

Cheers,

BB

And that would be correct, legally and in many countries the term "engineer" requires the person to have an Engineering/Science degree and sometimes a legal registration before they can use that "title" or job descriptor

Thailand has "registered" Engineers, and one has to be "registered" and approved by the Thai Engineering council as there is legal and professional accountability which comes with that registration.

there are western degree'd design engineers working in Thailand, who cannot sign off on things like design calculations as they are not registered with the Thai engineering council, and the final signature from a legal stand point comes from a Thai registered Engineer,

BTW this is not unique to Thailand, therefore in terms of the WP, they would be classed as "designers" not "design engineers" as such, other countries do exactly the same its not unique to Thailand.

Professionally this is no different from the expat lawyers operating in Thailand, they may be qualified lawyer from whence they came, but they cannot practice law in Thailand and act as "consultants" in Thailand and their WP will state "consultant or similar" not "lawyer"

In terms of your work permit the company should have applied for you as a "technical specialist - Inspection/QA/QC" - which can mean anything the company wants it to mean.

the amount of money one gets paid is irrelevant in this discussion

Koosdedooes,

Thanks for the response.

The whole scenario has been a real eye-opener for me(and as I said in a previous post, not sure if a Thai WP is even required as I work in China for a Thai company).

The Thai agency used by my employer had my job title as Used Furniture Salesman ??? until my wife reviewed the form and told me what was written in Thai.

And my photo in my WP was photoshopped to show me in a suit and tie ???

Cheers,

BB

If your in China and never work in Thailand, you don't need a Thai WP...suspect you would need what ever the equivalent is in China these days, the last time I worked in China was many moons ago, there were no work permits or work visa's.

So not sure what the Thai company is playing at...

The photo shop suit and tie for the photo had that done to me as well...its common

I recently obtained a WP to work as a Quality Co-ordinator.

This is for heavy mining machinery manufactured in Thailand (and other SE Asian countries) and then transported by ship to Australia.

My role has always fallen under "Engineering" but when my employer tried to classify me as an engineer (as there was no other applicable classification) they stated based on my resume showing I do not have a degree I could not be classified under engineering.

They have put me under "Power Transmission" on my WP despite the fact I have nothing to do with power stations.

The thing I find a bit confusing is I earn 10 x what a degree qualified Thai engineer earns but that apparently was not acceptable,

Cheers,

BB

And that would be correct, legally and in many countries the term "engineer" requires the person to have an Engineering/Science degree and sometimes a legal registration before they can use that "title" or job descriptor

Thailand has "registered" Engineers, and one has to be "registered" and approved by the Thai Engineering council as there is legal and professional accountability which comes with that registration.

there are western degree'd design engineers working in Thailand, who cannot sign off on things like design calculations as they are not registered with the Thai engineering council, and the final signature from a legal stand point comes from a Thai registered Engineer,

BTW this is not unique to Thailand, therefore in terms of the WP, they would be classed as "designers" not "design engineers" as such, other countries do exactly the same its not unique to Thailand.

Professionally this is no different from the expat lawyers operating in Thailand, they may be qualified lawyer from whence they came, but they cannot practice law in Thailand and act as "consultants" in Thailand and their WP will state "consultant or similar" not "lawyer"

In terms of your work permit the company should have applied for you as a "technical specialist - Inspection/QA/QC" - which can mean anything the company wants it to mean.

the amount of money one gets paid is irrelevant in this discussion