jamescollister

I must have been near Jim's area today. Went up to Phu Hin Dang with an armed escort. It was amazing! Ridiculously hot hike though. The cliff had a strong cool breeze though. Rangers wouldn't let us up without the escort. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1362057774.357894.jpg

Should have PM me, you were probably a few kicks from me, could have taken you up for the night. No escort required, we take our own guns and as all know [Rambo] a farang with a Swiss army pocket knife can take on any 100 bad guys.

Everyone's family out here, if you are not law you are safe.

Plus you could have come to our place, stayed the night and brought me beer.

Have to say a wild bit of the world, that few have seen. Jim

Here is not such a funny tale.

Stupidity on a scale that defies description. Jim

Oh boy! That's a shocker, Jim. Hope it turns out not as bad as you fear.

Not a problem for me, I'm an Aussie and take bush fire prevention very seriously. I just don't get it at times, local village PAs, as have the 2 local radio stations been, warning about fire dangers, but the locals just lite up anyway. Must have had 3 or 4 wood homes burnt to the ground in the area last month or so.

It's just like when the big rains come, rivers in flood, white water, but 4 kids drowned in them from the 3 village here, last year.

Teach my kids, don't go near the river at the back of the house without an adult, the crocs will get you. Seems to work, same for jungle parts, tigers will eat you.

No real crocodiles and tigers live up in the big green. Grimes fairy tales, but they work.

Jim

That is something you see here a lot carelessness with life and danger. Maybe we are better educated or think more about the consequences of our actions. Mind you not every Thai has this trait but you see a lot of things that are not well thought out and often just go for the easy way hoping it goes well and often it does go well.. but there is always a chance it won't

Think it is more basic than that, Grimms brothers published 1812, German folk law, so much older than that. We Europeans were not that well educated then.

Think it comes down to two different philosophies of life, we Greek. Thai Tao and Buddha. If you believe that an individual makes their own life. Western. If you believe that karma dictates your life's out come Asian.

I believe in neither and both at the same time. Out here it's just Karma and

I will teach my kids both. You make your own life, but do good if you can for good Karma.

Hopefully they will grow up to be well adjusted people and take responsibility for their own lives, when bad things happen, that's karma.

You can't control it all, bad things happen to good people. Jim

Here is not such a funny tale.

Stupidity on a scale that defies description. Jim

Oh boy! That's a shocker, Jim. Hope it turns out not as bad as you fear.

Not a problem for me, I'm an Aussie and take bush fire prevention very seriously. I just don't get it at times, local village PAs, as have the 2 local radio stations been, warning about fire dangers, but the locals just lite up anyway. Must have had 3 or 4 wood homes burnt to the ground in the area last month or so.

It's just like when the big rains come, rivers in flood, white water, but 4 kids drowned in them from the 3 village here, last year.

Teach my kids, don't go near the river at the back of the house without an adult, the crocs will get you. Seems to work, same for jungle parts, tigers will eat you.

No real crocodiles and tigers live up in the big green. Grimes fairy tales, but they work.

Jim

Here is not such a funny tale. Last week was out, with wife checking that a plantations dropped leaves had been cleared up, fire risk, dry as a bone out here at the moment.

Notice smoke coming from near one of our other plantations, so go to check it out. Thai rubber planter had raked his leaves into piles, set them alight and gone home. Lucky we had a phone signal, wife phoned her brother who is like the county clerk. An is the local fire and rescue boss.

Fire truck and locals got the fires under control and it didn't spread to other plantations or the jungle and scrub lands.

Guy who set the fires and wife turn up, tears rolling out looking at all the burnt mature trees. 10 rai man, don't know how many will recover, but willing to bet the nice new twin cab pick up will be going back.

Stupidity on a scale that defies description. Jim

Dryer than the OZ outback here, hot as hell and not a cloud in the sky.

We usually get a bit of local rain here, mountains and jungle condensing any moisture in the cooler air. No moisture in the air at all, never seen it so dry. Jim

We actually live in a tightly pack border village, it's just a bit green around the edges. Jim

August time then it is. Be good to know friends up there.

Where are you?

Google map Ban Sang Hom, think there are 2 of them, I'm the one on the Lao land border. Jim

In southern Isaan near Pakse (lao side)?

Further South near the Camdo border, south of Buntharik and towards Lao off the 2248. Jim

August time then it is. Be good to know friends up there.

Where are you?

Google map Ban Sang Hom, think there are 2 of them, I'm the one on the Lao land border. Jim

I rarely read so much misinformation in one thread.

First, the question was about taxes on usufruct. I know NONE of them (no tax) and the OP is the only person I know having been asked about. The OP should ask to see the law, the regulation about it, ask a receipt and double check with an attorney. It is possible that a local tax applies, but I would be more than surprised if it is the case. Some of you have made 1 or 2 usufruct, we have done hundreds. I never heard of ANY tax anywhere. And the law about taxes does not make a difference about foreigners and Thais.

A Usufruct is a dismembership, as we call it in French civil law, of the right of property. It is NOT property itself.

Usufruct can be done on immovable property AND movable property. In Thailand, if done of Immovable property, to be enforceable against third party, they need to be registered.

What does that mean? If you make a usufruct with your wife, but do not register it, if she sells the land, you can not oppose your right and tell the new owner that you can stay there. You can sue your wife because she didn't respect your agreement but good luck! But if registered, any person must respect the usufruct registered.

Registration is always at the land department for Nor Sor Sam, and higher, like Chanotte. There is no registration for land titles at the Aor Bor Tor, the amphur,tessanban, etc. There is a special office for Sor Por Kor but we won't get into that.

Buildings CAN be immovable property in Thailand. They actually are normally immovable property. The concept of immovable property had nothing to do with "grow" or "not grow".

Under Thai law, buildings can be movable or immovable. That doesn't make sense to me but this is Thai law. Now how can this be movable? By fiction. A personal agreement, like a MOU, or superficies or registration at the local authorities.

Business is completely different from a usufruct. Don't mix things.

A usufruct is a right to use, possess, enjoy, get the fruits of it. Fruits are defined as natural fruits or legal fruits.

A usufruct contract could restrict the rights of a business on land, or don't restrict it.

If you have a business on that land, you must follow ALL the other laws about business.

Example. A foreigner normally needs a work permit to work in Thailand. Work = paid or not according to the law.

In many places, you can't for example build a factory of your land. There are regulations, zones, where municipalities decide where factories, or discos can be build.

Another important law in business is the foreign business act.

A usufruct is NOT full ownership or should not even be considered close to ownership.. Clearly, Common Law people from UK, Australia, USA don't understand that. It is similar as a right of management, or a lease. Is a lease full ownership? No. Why? Because ownership will incorporate a right or selling, normally, fundamental part of the rights of an owner. Now, how do we call the person who owns the land and gives a usufruct? We call it in French the "naked-owner" (le nu-proprietaire). It means they still are the owner, but have almost no clothes, nothing, except the right to sell.

What is very different from a lease in a usufruct?

A lease is a persnonal right. That means attached to a person. But when you register it, it produce effects to third parties.

A usufruct is a real right. That means attached to a thing, like land.

A lease is transmissible to your heirs.

A usufruct is not transmissible to your heirs.

Some people mentionned clause 1469.

Does ANYONE here know one case of usufruct that was cancelled by a court involving clause 1469? I don't think so.

I don't know any of them and my personal interpretation, based of having studied civil law, based on working under Thai Law with about 30 different lawyers since 2006, is that 1469 does not apply to registered agreements. Point. You can disagree but you probably never studied the concept of "publicity" in civil law and it's meaning. Publicity means that registered agreements do affects third parties. On top of that, I have other arguments should someone try to cancel a usufruct in Court for a divorce. For instance, if the usufruct was GIVEN for free, which is 95% of the cases we do, according to section 1471 to 1474 of civil code, a gift is a personal right and that is public order. It means a gift is a gift and you keep it. Meaning you could argue that you can't claim back the usufruct or cancel it as it was given.

We never pleaded these arguments in court and thai lawyers I have seen, won't think about 1469.

I have seen about 5 to 10 divorces with usufruct. In each cases, people made agreements or to stay on the land, or to sell the land, split profits, etc. None tried to cancel a usufruct to what I have seen. We do divorces each month.

I am not saying it is impossible to cancel a usufruct. A usufruct is a contract and if a party does not respect the contract, then they could ask to cancel the contract.

The first time we registered a usufruct was around 2006. At that time, we had a very simple contract. Often just using repeating Thai law in Thai and English. Since then, we added many different clauses to protect the usufructuary. This is a personal agreement made between 2 people and signed with 2 witnesses. Most land department do not keep a copy of that agreement and just register another simple 3 to 5 lines about the usufruct in Thai on their form. However, the personal agreement made between both of you, even if not kept by the land department, is valid between both of you and clearly an excellent idea to have if well drafted.

I have seen clients changing clauses about insurance.

Other changing clauses about transferring rights, like sub-leasing to third parties, to limit it or not.

Some change clauses about payment of the usufruct, time of the usufruct, there is nothing I have not seen.

But the land department will refuse a usufruct if it is too much, example, you add clauses with option to purchase, or you put other clauses that change the nature of the contract. In that case, better to make 2 separate agreements, like a usufruct and a MOU.

Actually, at this moment, we rarely only do usufruct alone. We combine usufruct with a MOU or with a loan agreement to make them stronger. Sometimes with a prenuptial.

I have seen people refused a usufruct for life because the land department says it is only 30 years.

I have seen people refused a usufruct for more than 1 Rai, because the land department says so.

I have seen people refused a usufruct because they were not married, as the land department requested.

This is all wrong and not in the law. But the land department has a very wide discretion and often, in small places, they still don't know what is a usufruct.

I hope this help. I think I posted the first text in English about usufruct in Thailand in 2008. You can read it on ThaiLawOnline. It is not updated and I would need to make some modifications. I will try to do that next week.

The law has not changed. But the attitude of land department did. It is easier these days to register a usufruct. Many of our clients just ask an agreement online and does the registration themselves. It is not complicated and does cost only about 75 baht per title deed.

Sebastian.

PS: I am currently working on a surrogacy text, something really good about last Will (a very long research I made since 2 years) and Rights of sale with redemption (commonly known as Kaifa in Thai). But it won't be ready before Songkran. Too busy now.

Read through this a few times, lots of attempted legalese, but not much substance.

Take it you are not Thai, not a member of the Bar or law society or licensed to practice law in Thailand.

You seem to skip the important matters, like the land code, which actually refers to aliens and how they may not give money to a Thai national to buy land for the aliens use.

What about the document you sign making no claim to the land, usufruct is clearly a claim.

You mention sec 1469 of the CC, where pray tell does it say you need a court to cancel it, land office can avoid it, no court needed.

Usufructs give rights, which part of the CC state which limited rights cover aliens, you have a usufruct or you don't, it's a right to profit from the land. Work permits are a privilege.

Usufructs as far as I can see can be held by a Juristic person, why would Tesco, Toyota and other foreign companies not use them if they held water.

These law have been in place since the 50s I believe and no foreign national has contested them, I wonder why.

Sorry what you wrote has little to do with facts, just some loosely collected opinions.

I am not a lawyer, but have studied law, mostly criminal and spent a lot of time in court.

Issan lawyers may be of the opinion that a usufruct has some validity, but don't believe that is the opinion of the Thai law society. Jim

Who's Jim?

A local celeb?

Want to meet him next time I am there, put a face to a poster.

Has been open invitation for years, want to come out to the badlands, bring beer and I will supply a bed and food.

Anyone is welcome, don't see many white , English speaking people out here .Jim

Think people who live in Issan, big place, are fairly friendly, may be few and far between, but ask a question and someone local will answer. Jim

Think you can build very cheaply if you are not in a hurry. Our, still unfinished house, no money, pay as we go. Builder works very cheap and only works when he has nothing else on. We buy all the materials and he quotes per job.

House is 15 meters wide and 36 meters long, single story, 6 bedrooms, 2 of which are more like bedsits. Rest off the place is a big open roofed area, helps keep the place cooler. 2 toilets, shower etc.

Not sure how much it's cost so far, but would be under 1 mil Baht and that includes a 5 by 5 meter stilt patio out back. Jim

How does cost per sqm work out do you think on the liveable areas Are you in the same ballpark figures as me.

]Not sure what you mean, we lived in an old stilt house to start, village. House had about 16 meter frontage. We build bedrooms on one side of old stilt house remained. new toilet and another big bedsit room built. Had the old stilt house, 3 rooms. At the time had 9 adults and 4 kids living here. BIls got their own homes old stilt house came down, 2 new unfinished bed room up. Area between the old stilt house and the new bedroom roofed over and ceilings put in. Open area from back to front, still work to be done in kitchen, but think less than 2,000 baht a meter.

Not like some people I know, who have beautiful homes and take a lot of pride in them, we have aircon in 3 rooms, seldom used. No front or back door.

Will try and get some photo's tomorrow, it's more a home than a house. Jim

bankruatsteve

Go to the Amphor office, they collect samples for testing of village wells etc. Out here they seam to be on the ball at least. Hand water pumps have signs, fit to drink.

May well be just a rural program, but they seem to take public health seriously. Free mosquito poison for areas they don't spray themselves, district child nurse around weighing and measuring kids.

Don't get people out here going to hospital for bad water. jim

Your Ampur is collecting? Or, you are submitting for test? In Udon Thani, I don't see that, but would be interested if anybody knows.

We are out in the back of beyond and the Amphur comes out, or who ever they use, collects and tests. Water at the hand pump is fine, but most don't use it for drinking. Old ways die hard. They collect spring water, rain water or mountain stream water. Jim

wayned

No one lives further out than me, land border Lao. Last season rice was left to rot in the fields, no workers. 350 Baht a day plus food was the going rate.

Never heard of any builder out here quoting day rates, everything is by the meter or job. Jim

interesting you say that as I advertised for anyone who could lay blocks at 350 baht a day, no takers, The guy who was laying them for the builder was getting 400 a day.

I bang my head trying to get workers, good rubber tappers can make 1,000 Baht a day and I was 6 short most of last season.

Why work if you have food and a house, no bills, no taxes.

the only time you can get good workers, is when they buy a big silver 4 door pick up and have to make payments. Jim

bankruatsteve

Go to the Amphor office, they collect samples for testing of village wells etc. Out here they seam to be on the ball at least. Hand water pumps have signs, fit to drink.

May well be just a rural program, but they seem to take public health seriously. Free mosquito poison for areas they don't spray themselves, district child nurse around weighing and measuring kids.

Don't get people out here going to hospital for bad water. jim

I'm still here, just not doing much, it's hotter than the hobs of hell, hottest I can renumber for this time of year.

Trees are asleep and so are the dogs and people, too hot to move. Have taken up full time beer drinking, very bored at the moment, waiting for the rains.

Jim

Means he's very busy. Get on your bike Jim and come over, beers on me!

Will be down Trond, been watching the builders, FILs job normally, but it's been so hot, he's taken to living in the mountains.

Run out of money for builders, so they have to stop until the rubber begins again.

As soon as I see the dark green leaves on the trees I'm on the bike.

Or you can come here. Jim

Think you can build very cheaply if you are not in a hurry. Our, still unfinished house, no money, pay as we go. Builder works very cheap and only works when he has nothing else on. We buy all the materials and he quotes per job.

House is 15 meters wide and 36 meters long, single story, 6 bedrooms, 2 of which are more like bedsits. Rest off the place is a big open roofed area, helps keep the place cooler. 2 toilets, shower etc.

Not sure how much it's cost so far, but would be under 1 mil Baht and that includes a 5 by 5 meter stilt patio out back. Jim

Always thought the 3rd world referred to non aligned nations during the cold war. Nothing to do with developed or developing nations.

Thailand is developing at break neck speed, in the 10 odd years I've been here, out in the boonies, the change and pace of change is unbelievable.

Give it 10 more years and I think they will have caught up to many western nations.

As to hospitals, at least they have free medical and dental, go to my rich country, Australia. If you have bad teeth and no money, they will rot in your head. Jim

actually you are wrong jim , Australia has a free dental program , but there is such a long waiting list to get them done and by the time you get there they are rotten. if you are in alot of pain then they can do it quicker , less than a week. my daughter just went through it .

Last time I was back, watched one of those current affair shows about it. People were being told not to bother registering for the free dentist, just put down for false teeth as the waiting list was 5 years and you'll have no teeth left by then.

Not really a free dental system, here in our little local hospital, dentist comes twice a week and treats farangs for free as well, but there is only one off us. Jim

Always thought the 3rd world referred to non aligned nations during the cold war. Nothing to do with developed or developing nations.

Thailand is developing at break neck speed, in the 10 odd years I've been here, out in the boonies, the change and pace of change is unbelievable.

Give it 10 more years and I think they will have caught up to many western nations.

As to hospitals, at least they have free medical and dental, go to my rich country, Australia. If you have bad teeth and no money, they will rot in your head. Jim

Sorry, may be thick, but how do you go prawn fishing. Jim

wayned

No one lives further out than me, land border Lao. Last season rice was left to rot in the fields, no workers. 350 Baht a day plus food was the going rate.

Never heard of any builder out here quoting day rates, everything is by the meter or job. Jim

So whats the verdict?

Is this business doable or no ?

Whats the percentage of succeeding.

Live here and make my living here, took a long time to set up. No money from the west. It's not easy and it's not your turf.

I have land, and can get more if you have a plan, but not heard of people farming Mekong type large shrimps in dams. If you know how, please PM me. Jim

Speaking of electricity, we use a lot. For years we have paid the bill at the local power company office or to the meter reader. Few pay for power out here and those that do, pay little.

Last November we had a visit from a guy from the head office, inquiring why we had not paid any electricity in 3 years.

Lucky, wife kept the receipts, seems the boss of the local power company had been pocketing the money from us and other non free power homes.

Believe he is enjoying some quality time in a room with 20 others. Jim

If anyone else could provide a quote on any one of the items I listed, it would be appreciated.

You are pushed to find an electrician and you won't find one for 200 Baht a day and a bottle of Lao kow.

Go to the local power company line yard and hire them on their days off, back yarders as we say.

As to hiring people at 200 0Baht a day, dreaming, they quote by the job.

We have rubber, can't get workers long term at a 1,000 a day.

You may get the village idiot cheap, but you won't get a decent job done. Jim