.png.3b3332cc2256ad0edbc2fe9404feeef0.png)
Tom Seller
-
Posts
12 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Downloads
Posts posted by Tom Seller
-
-
On 9/3/2017 at 0:17 PM, Galactus said:
what ca i tell you?
you dont even know what ethnic group means.
please try to be informed and learn some simple terms before jumping into a discussion.
Catalans are an ethnic group and if they want independence or autonomy, they should get it.
would they need to care about mass migration or economic problems of other parts of Spain? they dont have to do that. it is not their problem. they just want to decide their own fate.
if Spanish government could not provide equality all over Spanish regions so far, that it is the problem of government not catalans.
English is not my mother tongue, so it´s not strange if I don´t know the meaning of some terms. I apologized for the misunderstanding.
You are, once more, using the same tricks than independentists. "Catalans" don´t want independence. A part of catalans want independence, a part that is not the biggest part. Saying "catalans want the independence" you are ignoring more than 2 million people voting to political groups against the independence. So, please, don´t talk in name of catalans because the catalans who want to be spanish are not less catalans than independentists or second class citizens. They have exactly the same rights.
There´s no constitution in the world that approve secesion of a part of territory. So what Spain is doing is applying the law.
Catalans have autonomy. One of the biggest autonomies in Europe. This is not a problem of freedom, as i said. it´s a problem of money and power
15 years ago Spanish economy was on the top. The independentism was a minoritary movement and nobody was complaining about Spain. The problem was after the crisis, when the politicians started to tell the population that Spain was taking advantage of Catalonia because just a part of their taxes go back to Catalonia. You know what? same happens in Madrid. It´s called "solidarity". More developed regions have to help the less developed ones in the same country, I´m sure this happen in every european country.
But nationalist saw the oportunity of their life when realized that this kind of complains were having a good response between population, because they were frustrated for the economical crisis, and you know the people always need a guilty. You can´t expect normal people was able to understand the complexity of factors involved in a crisis, so they believe a plain and simple explanation.
Add the brainwashing in education and you can find the reasons of this conflict.
Anyway, it´s clear you are not supporting this cause for logical reasons. It´s clear you don´t want to tell your country because you know I will ask about places in it and if you would like they were independent. And it´s clear that, what you want for Catalonia, is not the same you would like for your country.
Do you know how I know all of that? Because in Spain there´s a lot of debate about this. Independentist claim Catalans have ·"the right to decide" and Spain is not respecting that right. And I always reply the same:
Let´s imagine we accept the "right to decide" in the terms they propose. In an hipotetical Catalan state, if some of the provinces would ask for a referendum to get back to Spain, would they accept?
There´s always same answer:
Silence...
-
Just now, Shawn0000 said:
You might be confusing what "ethnic group" actually means, which is a people who share a common cultural background OR decent. Catalans very much are an ethnic group in that they have a cultural background which is distinct from the other Romanse ethnic groups in the area; Asturians, Galicians, Basques, Navarese, Valencians, Andalusians, Aragonese and the French, although they may not classify as a different ethnic group to the Occitans, that would be debatable.
If that is the sense of ethnic group, it was a misunderstanding. I thought he was talking about a different race.
You are right, but having a different background is not reason enough for independence. There are a lot of examples of different ethnic groups in many countries and that not means anything. If any ethnic group were a country the world would have thousand of them.
-
Once more. Can you please tell me your country of origin? It would be interesting to see how you reply some questions.
About your statement " catalans are an ethnic group " ; you are proving you know NOTHING about this conflict and less about catalans.
Catalans are not an ethnic group.
They are not oppressed
They can use their own language with total freedom
They never were independent state, so they were not colonized
Please, try to be informed if you support a cause, because if not, it seems you´re talking nonsense.
-
5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:
For us observers of this discussion, please explain all those things.
Independentists scottish groups support Catalonia independence because they have similar goals. I just guessed Galactus was from Scotland, because he´s reluctant to say what´s his country and support catalan independentism with no reason
3 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:It was a principality, under the crown of Aragon, so not exactly independent and pretty much to the same level that they are now, just quite autonomous.
That´s much more accurate.
Catalonia was under the crown of Aragon, and when Aragon and Castilia joined forces, they were part of Spain. So they have never been independent. In fact, 10 years ago, when Spain was in a good economic situation, independentist movement was almost inexistent, another proof of this nonsense . It´s not a problem of identity. It´s not a problem of opression. It´s a problem of money and power. Bad reasons to support independence.
3 hours ago, Galactus said:if some group of people are asking for independence, let them be independent.
you can runaway from the inevitable. if it is as you say, then Catalans decide to stay with Spain but dont think so.
check your historical facts as well:
'Catalonia was an independent region of the Iberian Peninsula – modern day Spain and Portugal – with its own language, laws and customs.
In 1150, the marriage of Petronilia, Queen of Aragon and Ramon Berenguer IV, Count of Barcelona formed a dynasty leaving their son to inherit all territories concerning the region of Aragon and Catalonia.
This lasted until the reign of King Philip V. The War of the Spanish Succession ended with the defeat of Valencia in 1707, of Catalonia in 1714, and finally with the last of the islands in 1715 – resulting in the birth of modern-day Spain.'
biggest concern of catalans is the situation of Barcelona football team i believe more than anything:)
As you wrote "was an independent REGION of the iberian Peninsula". It never was an independent state. As I explained before, it was included in the crown of Aragon, but never was a country or a state. In fact, you can check the wikipedia page and you will see there´s no trace of any period when Catalonia have been independent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia
"if some group of people are asking for independence, let them be independent." This apply for your country too?
-
16 hours ago, Galactus said:
haha. wearing a skirt is definitely not a tradition where i come from:) but it looks airy though.
i dont do any false statements. clearly there are some catalans asking for independence and this is a fact. there is smoke without a fire.
If i were spain, i just say catalans to leave and create a future without them. why do you need to live with a group of people who does not want you or want to be a part of your country?
Catalans who wants to be part of Spain can leave Catalonia and live in Madrid or Valencia.
if what you say is true, that trust will appear like the sun after the independence referendum.
if Spain does not allow that referendum and start to detail pro independence people, it is the end of Spain for sure.
i support independence of Catalonia as an individual.
What´s the problem of telling me your country?. Maybe if I use some examples in your country you could have a different point of view.
You make false statements, that´s a fact. I´m still waiting for you to show me your source for telling Catalonia was an independent state in the past. That´s a false statement and you are not able to prove it simply because it´s not true.
You´re very funny about your solution. So catalans living in Spain (Catalonia is Spain even if independentists don´t like the idea), who have grown in Spain, and who are a bigger amount than independentist must leave their own land because that people "feel they are not spanish". That´s ridiculous.
As you always say, let´s see what happen. You say there will be a referendum, I say it won´t. You say that will be the end of Spain. I say that´s not true. The end of Spain and Europe would be if the rest of the countries were supporting that kind of movements, because they exist in Germany, Italy, England, etc. Look:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe
Politicians are not so stupid. They know if they support a foreign secesionist movement, tomorrow others can do the same with their own secesionist movements. So, keep on dreaming about Catalonia independence.
-
The solution? I don´t know. But I know what is not.
Every person has the right to feel what they want. If independentist think they are not spanish, that´s not a crime. They won´t go to jail for that. But they can go to jail if ignore the laws and the justice, what , actually, is what they are doing.
I see that your behaviour is not so diferent from them. You make false statements without historical background supporting it. You don´t mind if most of the catalans are against the independence. You focus in the other ones. They have the right to being independent, but what about the catalans that want to be spanish?
Plus, you don´t want to reply my question about your country.
Let me guess. Wearing skirt is one of your traditions? Because that would explain a lot of things...
-
3 minutes ago, Galactus said:
Catalonia was separate state before. it became part of Spain after.
I see many polls and many numbers in my life before any election or referendum and what i see, most of them were not true when i see the results.
as i said, lets wait and see. i wonder why an independent Catalonia scares people much especially Spain.
for me in Spain, if catalans are braisnhwashed and then spanish people asking a united spain is also brainwashed.
Are you sure? Can you give me your source? Or I need to believe in your word?. I guess that you´re not an expert of spanish history, so you should have read that in some place. I´d like you to show me.
What I´ve showed you is not a poll. It´s the result of last elections in Catalonia, that independentist said it was a plebiscite. It was not, it was just elections to Catalan Parlament, but they joined forces to get the maximun number of votes and tell the Central Government: "You see? Most of Catalans want the independence". The problem? They failed.
Independence is something serious. You can´t do it if you have not at least a 60% of population supporting it. They dont have the 50% and are still trying...
One last question. What country are you from?
-
13 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:
false
Ok. Can you tell me when it was an independent state? If it´s false you should know the answer.
Bullfighting is an spanish tradition, you´re right, But there is a big part of society that are not agree with it. And, let me tell you, Barcelona had 2 bullrings, so, there are fans of bullfighting in Catalonia too. Unfortunately, independentists try to show themselves with all virtues and the rest of spanish as primitive people, but that´s not true. There are both kind of people in Catalonia and in the rest of Spain: civilized and primitive. Like in any other part of the world.
Yes, Catalonia is one of the more developed regions in Spain. Is this enough to ask for independence? I´d like to know what country are you from guys. I´m sure in your country there is one or more than one developed region. Is it fair that they leave then? One region is developed for a lot of reasons. In Catalonia, one of the reasons was the arrival of workers from Andalucía 60 years ago. Hardworking people who put all their effort in creating a better life and contribute a lot to that development.
Investments of Central Government are another factor. As you may know, there was an Olimpic Games in Spain in 1992. Who do you think put the money for the improvement of Barcelona? Check this video of Barcelona before and after Olimpic Games. All of that was made with money from taxes of all spaniards
.
-
5 hours ago, Galactus said:
at the end, all ends up with Catalans. Sure there will be a referendum to decide.
so, lets wait and see but what i see Catalans want to be independent.
and if catalans get their independence, it does not mean they will not be cooperating with Spain or other countries around.
"at the end, all ends up with Catalans" FALSE. Catalonia never was an independent state. It´s a part of Spain. So, if some of them want to leave, they can´t impose their ideas to the rest of spanish people. Catalonia is spanish territory, so a small group - less than 2 million people- can´t decide about Spanish territory over the rest of 43 million of spaniards.
"Sure there will be a referendum to decide." FALSE. Spanish constitution doesn´t allow that kind of referendum. So if they finally try to do it, their leaders will be out of their positions and will go to the justice court. In fact, there are some independentist leaders in it right now because they ignored the laws.
"so, lets wait and see but what i see Catalans want to be independent." Maybe it´s your perception, but it doesn´t mean it was true. A perception is subjective. Numbers are not. I showed you the number of votes. That is a REAL FACT. Not an opinion.
Or maybe you are an independentist in your own country and would like Catalonia independence because you think it will be good for your interests. I don´t know.
"and if catalans get their independence, it does not mean they will not be cooperating with Spain or other countries around." That statement proves you know very little about this problem. The independentists have grown because the brain washing has created hate. Hate to Spain. They talk about themselves with superiority, like if they were special compared to the rest of spanish people. This has created a lot of conflicts, even inside families. I don´t know if those wounds will heal someday. But expecting a "happy coexistence" is not realistic. If that would happen, next day the Basque Country would ask their independence and Spain will be destroyed like a country.
So, if Basques didn´t get their independence with 40 years of terrorism, don´t expect Catalans get theirs in a pacific way. No way. Nobody in Europe want to support that kind of ideas because it would be the suicide of every single country.
-
I
17 hours ago, Galactus said:wha
whatever you say, catalans want their independence and they will get it eventually.
and how can we be sure that you are not brainwashed by nationalistic spanish politicians or leaders and saying these?
if catalans get their independence, it is good for spain too.
That´s one more of many lies independentist say. "Catalans want their independence": how much of them? Let me remind you about last elections in Catalonia.
Can you see the number of votes? I remind you, 1 person, 1 vote.
Can you explain me what kind of brainwashing makes what you call "nationalistic spanish politicians"? Because, IMO this concept is not real. Every politician in every country of the world try to keep the integrity of its territory. That´s not nationalism. That´s logical.
What is not logical is trying to make smaller territories in a world more and more connected and joining forces to solve its challenges. It´s not logical that more of half of the population was foreign in their own place based in a supposed "difference".
Why are catalan differents than people from Valencia, Andalucía or Canary Islands? All of us are different. Every SINGLE individual is different of the rest of the world. The problem is when you focus in DIFFERENCES instead of SIMILARITIES. Thats the nationalism. Ask any person in this forum about the difference between catalans and the rest of spanish people. Probably they shouldn´t be able to notice even in case of being talking with them.
And this, as you can see, is not brain washing. They are reasons. I´m still waiting for yours.
-
18 hours ago, Galactus said:
great! wish the best for Catalans!
there is nothing like freedom.
still, many uncertainties for Catalans, economy, politics, their future and Barcelona of course.
You must be kidding. Freedom? What kind of freedom?
Catalonia has its own parlament. Its own language. Their politicians has A LOT of power in political decisions in their region. There´s absolutely no oppression. I´ve been living in Barcelona more than 10 years.
The Catalonia independence is a joke. The only reason because the independentist movement has increased its strenght is because the ambition of politicians: They have been washing brains since Central Government transferred Education to Catalonia. This massive brain washing will be studied by the experts in some decades because it´s something I haven´t seen before.
For them, there´s no "Spain". They always say "The state". Imagine a child growing in a place where media never talks about his country calling it by its name. Just "The state". Like an abstract thing with no emotional or cultural references. And then, imagine a school where you can´t receive education in Spanish and everything is teached in Catalan. Now add 20 years with this subtle manipulation. Add an economical crisis. Andd the natural ambition of all politicians for being more and more powerful.
Now, you have the receipt of the "Catalan independence".
And you know what´s the worse of all? More than half of population in Catalonia doesn´t want independence. But they are scared. If you say you love Spain, the independentists will put all their engine to work for making your life harder. Independentist movement is a subtle way of nazism, and they are living in an alternative world. They try to make people believe that life will be the same next day after independence. the only difference will be they will manage their own taxes.
EU? Of Course they will remain inside. They are too important for being kicked out...
If it wasn´t so sad, it would be funny.
Catalans prepare vote for independence from Spain
in World News
Posted
It´s simple. That kind of referendum is not legal.
Every country have a Constitution, that is the mother of all laws. You can´t do a referendum opposite to the constitution only because a part of population want it.
Example:
If 1 million of French people want a referendum to execute musulmans because the terrorist attacks of Paris you can´t accept that referendum and their results because death penalty is not admited in french constitution.
If 2 million germans agree to make a referendum for not paying taxes you can´t accept that referendum and its results because german constitution say all germans must pay taxes.
If 3 millons of catalans say they want a referendum to be independent you can´t accept the referendum and their results because spanish constitution say the soberany of Spain and its territory belongs to ALL THE SPANISH PEOPLE.
As you can see, it´s not a numbers problem. It´s about the law. If you ignore the law, what kind of country can you create? What´s your moral authority to tell your citizens to pay taxes and follow the rules if you as a politician didn´t respect them?