yooper

On 4/24/2018 at 7:27 AM, onera1961 said:

Where on US soil you can get such a visa? No consulate in the US issues such a visa. All Non-O visas are for family visit only. 

Correct, sorry for any confusion.... we do have family here.

Regarding my other comments and experiences here over the past 6 months, everyone be advised that advice / information you see online is in no way binding upon whatever bureaucrat you may face during required interactions w ith Thai authorities.  Nothing is guaranteed, everything is subject to change or disapproval by the bureaucrat with whom you interact.  If you raise your voice or complain you can be 'blacklisted' or worse.  

We are leaving in 2 weeks and we have not applied for a re-entry permit so our retirement visas will not be valid if we ever come back, which is not likely.  If we do come again it will be as tourists.  What was originally seen as quaint, cultural, or even endearing Thai-ness has become largely insufferable to us as educated westerners, most especially the public school system.   We will follow the evolution of Thai politics and social engineering from a distance.  God bless all who love Thailand. I love it too but not as a home, even part-time.

20 hours ago, 900312611 said:

Everyone, thank you for your response.

We 'are' planning on going  to Thailand this June/July to see her sisters,  hopefully get married name recognized, get Thai passport hopefully in married name as this is what she wants, also will help when we come back to live because she has her own social security ("may" was polite way of saying in all likelihood) check about O visas and bank accounts, and basically look around for to see what's available for housing.

She has a renewed ID card (2015), but only in maiden name, also she is half owner of a house one of her sister's lives in for the last 20 years.  

Social security... Thai or US?  Hard to imagine what impact you anticipate with that....

We are married 44 years next month, were married here in '74 and still have the documents. After just a couple months my wife definitely does not to live here year round even though she has family here.  You might care to note that depending on where you live here, air pollution here has become as bad as the very worst places in the world and is a most definite health hazard around any metropolitan area and there is nothing being done about it while new industry is expanding everywhere with a new international airport near Rayong and railways on the books for the very near future. Some schools in Bangkok even close on the especially toxic days.

See https://air.plumelabs.com/en/live/bangkok  and  http://aqicn.org/city/bangkok/  ,  for more real time info. We live about 25km east of Bangkok, there is a permanent haze in the sky.  We are also renting a place in Pattaya on the beach and it is not much better down there, headed that way tomorrow. 

We had a couple reasons for coming here, one of which was wife's sister and 2 of her brothers are in poor health, and while the Thai health system is generally fantastic there is clear evidence that overall health probably won't improve and  the siblings may not even survive for many more years given their economic status and the rapidly deteriorating air quality. 

Another reason was to escape the harsh winters at our home and to see how well we could live on our own social security income here if it should that become necessary.  While both of those conditions get 5 stars,  it is not clear if similar reasons play any part for "when" you come back to live.  Our plans now involve selling our rural property and moving into a townhouse where I won't have to shovel snow or do yardwork ... turns out the wife is missing the snowbelt now too.  ( she has never shoveled any  snow ) 

21 minutes ago, samran said:

I’d say screw-em too, but go back and not leave till she gets what is hers by right (and law). Tell him if he doesn’t do his job you’ll refer him to the administrative court (Sarn Bok-krong) which has jurisdiction over civil servants and government organizations- and is surprisingly independent (which the civil servants know). 

 

You come across these  civil servants spongers from time to time and being a bit out of the big smoke like to wield there power over people whom they consider unknowledgeable. It’s always fun to shown them up.

I'll leave the threats regarding admin court to brother-in-law. He is a retired govt employee so may (should?) already know about the admin court. It only costs a couple thousand baht per year for a re-entry permit and extension renewal so no big deal although it would be nice to deny them that revenue,  but our beef is not with the immigration folks and since I don't speak or read Thai she has to come along with me anyway to order lunch out in the parking lot and give directions to the taxi driver .... 

15 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

The question is whether your wife cares to get her Thai ID card and passport renewed so that she may again be able to fully exercise her rights as a Thai national. No legal fees need be incurred by using one of these options:

1. File a written complaint with the Ombudsman:
   http://www.ombudsman.go.th/10/index1.asp
2. File a written complaint with the government hotline:
   http://www.1111.go.th/
3. File a written complaint with the police station (only if she has a document from the district office stating the refusal)

In her complaint, she should not go into a lengthy sob story, just give the facts briefly and accurately, eg:

•  I am a Thai national with ID card <card number> issued on <date>
• When my ID card expired, I went to the <district name> district office and applied for a new ID card.
• The district official <name> and his superior official <name> refused to issue a new D card to me.

The reason why government officials get away unpunished with dereliction of duty and abuse of power is because not enough people make formal written complaints about it.

 

Whichever option your wife chooses, the district office will respond with the lame excuse that there was a misunderstanding and will ask your wife to go back and get her new ID card. 

Thank you very much for this information. My wife's brother in law was quite disturbed by the refusal and indicated a personal desire to correct the situation so I have passed the info to him. While it would be nice to  avoid the fees and paperwork required for annual  6 month visits here on an American  passport w/ non-o 'retirement' visa, I have to endure the routine in any case, and the fees are not a problem for us so my wife can accompany me and do likewise. While we have had very pleasant experiences with Thai immigration here in Samut Prakan we have lost all motivation for further interaction with the local level bureaucracy after the disgusting and imo bigoted treatment we received at the the Pak Nam district office. The person there went so far as to accuse my wife of attempting to qualify for Thai 'welfare'. (approx 600 baht/month), while insisting that she was 'not Thai' any longer, (even though her name was in her sisters Thai house registry) which was all very upsetting to my wife.... so <deleted> 'em is her attitude now.....  although I do know she would be pleased if her brother in law were able to correct the situation and perhaps even extract an apology from the bureaucrats at that District Office.

9 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, he has. This from the OP:

 

"we (both of us) may be going to Thailand June/July to visit for a month (but may come back to Thailand sometime later to live)"

Lol, while 'may' is not really a plan in my book  I'll concede your point even though that still does not require a passport or the tedium of getting one for the upcoming trip. 

If my wife had a valid ID card in her maiden name and owned property with that name on it, my own personal approach would be to let sleeping dogs lie, report the foreigner (husband) as a resident there (assuming they would live there) and enter the country on a Thai passport issued in the usa, just prior to the time the plan 'may' take place as that would extend the expiration date of the passport to the furthest future date.

16 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Your experience was not normal and there was no reason for it. Just a bureaucrat talking nonsense.

True, and it could happen anytime anywhere, and apparently nonsense flies here since the immediate supervisor backed up the decision.  Not sure if brother-in-law is still trying to appeal to a higher authority, but it would be for satisfaction to save his own face because I am satisfied with our retirement "visas" and could care less one way or another. I have to jump thru the hoops for reporting, extensions, re-entry, etc. so wife can just come along for the ride too. 

The OP apparently is not going to be here long term, so not clear why he is even bothering with a Thai passport since the visa on entry is free and zero hassle and he hasn't indicated any long term plans...  

oops... I'd accidentally attached an image.... took a bit to figure out how to remove it, sorry.

28 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Why?  When she changes her name she will get proof of it that can used later for any transactions.

Why do I suspect? 

Because of recent experiences that do not conform to advice/information that I was given by both Thai and US govt sources, not to mention online forums.

My wife's married name is on her US Passport and she has been denied a new ID card.even thought she was successfully added to her sisters house registration book.. you may remember my rants.   That certainly may not be the reason she was denied, but the thought crossed my mind after reading the OPs questions. IMO the possibility  exists that the administrator assumed my wife renounced her Thai citizenship... the administrator did in fact say that the refusal was based of her American passport, whether that be a wrong decision or not it stands to this day and there is little that can be done about without incurring substantial legal fees with no guarantee of a reversal. I really don't care about that at this point. (My wife is already looking forward to returning to Michigan, lol)

If the OPs wife changes her name and runs into some uninformed folks like I ran into they MIGHT end up so confused as to produce unexpected .results. Call me paranoid, I don't care. I also don't see any issue with her (OPs wife)  keeping her Thai name.... what benefit does she get by being married to a foreigner? 

If she already owns property in her maiden name I'd suspect keeping that name on the passport would make best sense....

3 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You will not get a new one year entry. You will be stamped in until the date your one year extension ends.

ah yes, I am back on the Immigration web page,  I see there is a fresh 1900 baht per year fee for the extensions. At least the February date works well for us as a renewal date.  But more reason now to hope the wife ends up with a Thai passport before we leave,  would save us a total of 2900 baht per year.... almost half a months rent on our Bang Phli hideaway!

We just cam back from a 3 day weekend in Pattaya. Found a rental less than 100yds from the beach around Soi  8 off Jomtien Beach Rd for BHT 13,000/month plus utilities.  The deck/balcony is larger than our room here in Bang Phli, we are very pleased. We put down a deposit and will begin our rental there in a couple weeks... it's a 2.5 hr bus trip back and forth whenever we want a change of pace.  I am wondering about the farang  reporting  that landlords are supposed to do.... we are still logged in as living in Bang Phli, how confusing would that end up being if we were also reported as living in Pattaya? Should I bring our rent receipts and tell them they don't have to report?

22 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Since you now have an extension based upon retirement you cannot use your multiple entry non-o visa for entry since that will void out your extension since you will get a new permit to stay date 90 days from the date of entry.

You need to use a re-entry permit (fee for a single is 1000 baht) that will be valid for entry to the date you extension expires. You need to apply for it before leaving the country.

1000 baht sounds great to me.... assuming I/we get a fresh year upon re-entry.  I'll guess we can apply for it around 2 weeks prior to departure?  I just changed our American Airlines return flight from March to May at a cost of $2000. I don't recall why the hell I booked a return in March, it is still way cold in Northern Michigan and usually plenty of snow left on the ground.

fwiw, my brother in law has taken up a personal challenge of straightening out the folks at the district office regarding my wife's ID card.  He will try to get an audience with the next higher-up above the fellow 'upstairs' that confirmed the first bureaucrat's decision not to issue the card. My brother-in-law  did some research on his own and now believes as do so many others here that she is entitled to her ID card. He is not pleased with the demeanor of the folks at the district office and wants to prove them wrong on face value. He is a retired govt employee, I do not know what his job was but rumor has it that he is a personal acquaintance of the mayor of Bangkok. I do know he belongs to some sort of group similar to the Rotary in the US and frequently goes to meetings and gatherings where he probably has opportunity to look for direction on the matter.

At least her ID card would save the 1000 baht re-entry fee if she could enter with a Thai passport. Other than that we can do fine without it since we are not looking for work or to buy property....   Or to win any contests....I had an email from 'Suitcase' who seems to adore you and told me to give up that I cannot 'Win' whatever he thinks I am trying to win.... he wrote:

"You ain’t gonna win this one so you might as well give it up!

Ubinjoe knows way more than you will ever think of knowing!"

On 1/28/2018 at 10:00 AM, OJAS said:

As far as I am concerned the nearest thing to a "retirement visa" is not an extension of stay but a non-O visa on tCahe grounds of being aged 50 or over, for which quarterly trips to the likes of Penang and Vientiane would be required to renew on the basis that they only issue such visas on a single-entry basis.

 

After all, you wouldn't call an apple an orange, would you?

I have a visa that says

Type: Non Immigrant

Category: O

No. of Entry: M  (multiple)

Fee: $200

Our stated purpose for the visa application was to visit family, I is good for one year upon entry to Thailand (within 90 days of issue).  Two months after our arrival I have the 'Retirement' stamp added to my passport, stating it was good until Feb 2018.  We will be leaving in May to return in November, prior to the expiration of the Non-O visa. What is not clear to me is if my non-O were expired (like the following year) and I entered on the free 30 day tourist visa, would immigration extend/update it to a year based on my receipt for and stamp indication of my retirement extension status.  I won't be at that point for a very long while, just wondering if anyone with the retirement stamp has ever re-entered within the 10 year window without only the 30 day initial stay.... please note I am wondering about facts not opinions. (like it matters here)

1 minute ago, Classic Ray said:

Wrong term, it is not retirement vida but extension of the O or OA visa based on retirement. This can be extended innumerable times annually without border runs even after the original visa has expired. But you must purchase exit/re entry permits before you leave the country on any trip to keep the extension current, otherwise you need to get a new visa to base the extension on.

 

I would advise coming on an extended holiday on a tourist visa first to make sure this is really what you want to do, and can put up with the cultural differences and hassles. Will also give you the chance to sort out visa and passport issues. Personally I love Chiangmai, but traffic getting heavy. 

You obviously haven't read my earlier posts, I have a non-immigrant o visa.   Retirement visa is just a common term, I know about the extensions, am leaving the coutry to summer in the usa every year. No extension necessary.

3 minutes ago, sumrit said:

I've known our local Amphur to say they couldn't do something they were required to do on more than one occasion because is was 'too much trouble'. Did you just accept what they said without querying it?

no, we went thru it twice, the last time my brother in law got us a meeting with the head of the place 'upstairs'. He's the one who referred to the laws quoted above

9 minutes ago, Happy enough said:

but why? did they say?

yes, the immigration law quoted above.

sister is picking us up in a few minutes we are off to the beach.  Maybe by next time I can check in an actual lawyer will give some perspective. All things are possible in Thailand, or not.

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Complete rubbish you were told. There is no such 5 year rule. Immigration as nothing to do with Thai nationality issues. That is function of the interior ministry. Most issues can be handled at the local Amphoe.

lol, the local Amphoe denied her ID card, not immigration.

2 minutes ago, Happy enough said:

strange thread. can't work it out. all I will add is that if your wife is thai, she will always be thai and entitled to a passport in the same way my mrs is who's had british citizenship for years. can't understand why it has been difficult. by the way OP, you'll get a hell of a nice place in CM for 2000 dollars a month. enjoy that

strange indeed.  But the only real benefit for us would be that she wouldn't need to check in every 90 days, and we could buy property. If the online stuff works no big deal and we don't need/want to buy any property.  We have a nice but small, one room apartment in a 1yr old building (all new plumbing, a/c, great security system, covered parking, cable tv&internet) for  under $200/month.  I'm sure we will hit $200 before long the way the baht is being manipulated.

9 minutes ago, sumrit said:

Yes, they do now, but two did have ID cards more than a year out of date when they first renewed them in the UK, while my ex wife first renewed both her ID card and passport in Thailand without a problem when it was nearly three years out of date. On that occasion she had entered/exited Thailand on her UK passport. (The next time she travelled she had to carry her old Thai passport as well to show an exit stamp in a Thai passport. This was possibly about 15 years ago and I understand entry/exit can be more strict now)

Having one renewed is a bit different than having one replaced that was issued over 40 years ago.  We figured (and so did the Thai Consulate in Chicago) that her expired Thai passports would do the trick.  They said "just go there and show them you are still alive".  Don't take anything for granted in Thailand, lesson learned. I have given the facts of my experience, the opinions here do not change the facts. Anything can happen here. That doesn't mean it is in compliance with the law.

Just now, sumrit said:

My ex wife and at least five of my friends with Thai wives use these facilities (the last one being just two weeks ago) and I can guarantee they are ALL UK citizens with UK passports because I personally helped all of them with their indefinite leave, subsequent British Citizenship and UK passport applications. 

fine, do they all hold valid Thai ID cards?  All things are possible with the ID card, our problem was the refusal to issue one.  Not a problem any more, we are happy with the 10 yr visas since we will only spend 7 months a year here.

2 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I have had no need to argue such matters for a Thai spouse. However, my 29-year-old Thai daughter, when I got her UK nationality, did not lose her Thai nationality (although the immigration office was referring to provisions in ancient versions of the Thai nationality act until I straightened them out on the matter).

Now that IS interesting, but it is NOT the immigration folks who issue ID cards, so more confusion.  With an ID card a passport is no problem so I've been told.  I just don't care any more, we need more vacation time in places other than govt offices.

6 minutes ago, sumrit said:

This is the current procedure for obtaining a new Thai ID card and passport on the UK Thai Embassy website.Other European Embassies offer a similar service and I would think all Thai Embassies have the same/similar facilities. As said before, Chicago DOESN'T have an Embassy, it only has a CONSULATE. They are not the same thing. You must go to the Thai Embassy to get the full services provided.

 

http://www.thaiembassy.org/london/en/services/82036-Thai-National-ID-(Renew-an-ID-Card).html

 

http://www.thaiembassy.org/london/en/services/82038-Thai-Passport.html

Interesting, but those links do not address 'foreign' non-Thai naturalization / citizenship which is central to the refusal I was given. It seems to be for  Thai's who need renewals/replacements, not British citizens.  I do suspect we could report the old ID card as lost and perhaps start over again at a different district office but after 2 months of run-around I am finished with it. We have only spent a week at the beach, are headed back this afternoon and putting all this stuff behind us.

4 minutes ago, BritTim said:

On loss of Thai nationality, read and understand Section 13 and Section 14. The intent of those sections for many years has been to assist those acquiring citizenship of countries that do not allow dual citizenship. It allows Thais (who could not otherwise acquire their new citizenship) to voluntarily renounce their Thai citizenship. Although long ago, it was possible for a natural born Thai to lose citizenship involuntarily, it has long been true that Thais must ask to be deprived of Thai citizenship before this can now occur.

 

The OP's wife is Thai, has always been Thai, and would be well advised to get a Thai passport as suggested by others.

I'd hope you  will ague your opinion at the Pak Nam District office and straighten them out.

11 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is false info. I can assure you many Thai's have have more than one citizenship. That requirement went away many years ago.

yes, I think in 1992 but that doesn't matter now (to me) unless you are qualified to practice Thai law.