guyinthailand

As for the continued 'assertion' by one member who is becoming a thread killer and cynical user of this site, a spammer almost, about 'rat poisoning'....... do us a favour please? Bog off.

-mel.

I had to edit your long-winded quote above and whittle it down because in the entirety of it you said...absolutely nothing.

And I believe 'rat poison' is one possibility. Poisonous mushrooms are another, and perhaps more likely, cause (see above post).

Who mentioned you?

You're not that important!

-mel.

Edit: But yeah! You encouraged me to hit the report button too.

More fool your own rhetoric.

See, you're doing it again. Making a worthless post because you don't 'like' that I reveal the inconsistencies in your arguments.

Report yourself.

GentlemanJim: "Lead, arsenic or mercury poisoning may cause bleeding gums."

Yes, but only if it is CHRONIC (long term) exposure (of arsenic). That is not what happened with these women. They had some sort of acute (sudden) exposure to something (which could be warfarin or poisonous mushrooms--see my post above).

• Acute exposures generally manifest with the cholera-like gastrointestinal symptoms of vomiting (often times bloody) and severe diarrhea (which may be rice-watery in character and often bloody); these patients will experience acute distress, dehydration (often), and hypovolemic shock.
  

Chronic hepatic and renal damage is common with chronic exposure.http://emedicine.med...-clinical#a0217

note: the renal (kidney) damage caused by long-term (chronic) exposure could cause bleeding gums

And the point GK was trying to get through to you is that the bleeding gums from warfarin IS a long term thing. Vitamin K is not eradicated from the body quickly, do you get it now?

Sorry you're having trouble reading your sidekick's posts: he said ARSENIC can cause bleeding gums. I showed how it can NOT cause bleeding gums UNLESS it is LONGterm exposure.

And I know warfarin take a while to cause symptoms--24 hours, minimum. I stated that in a much earlier post.

Button left hand bottom corner labelled report. Hit It Anabell

Sportsman69: book a flight for the two of you.

As for the continued 'assertion' by one member who is becoming a thread killer and cynical user of this site, a spammer almost, about 'rat poisoning'....... do us a favour please? Bog off.

-mel.

I had to edit your long-winded quote above and whittle it down because in the entirety of it you said...absolutely nothing.

And I believe 'rat poison' is one possibility. Poisonous mushrooms are another, and perhaps more likely, cause (see above post).

GentlemanJim: "Lead, arsenic or mercury poisoning may cause bleeding gums."

Yes, but only if it is CHRONIC (long term) exposure. That is not what happened with these women. They had some sort of acute (sudden) exposure to something (which could be warfarin or poisonous mushrooms--see my post above).

• Acute exposures generally manifest with the cholera-like gastrointestinal symptoms of vomiting (often times bloody) and severe diarrhea (which may be rice-watery in character and often bloody); these patients will experience acute distress, dehydration (often), and hypovolemic shock.
  

Chronic hepatic and renal damage is common with chronic exposure.http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/812953-clinical#a0217

note: the renal (kidney) damage caused by long-term (chronic) exposure could cause bleeding gums

I don't think you have read all his post have you Guyinthailand.

I read this

Warfarin exposure does not cause spontaneous bleeding of the gums.

and then I read your blind support of his 'warfarin doesn't cause bleeding gums' notion.

and then I read this "More common findings of excessive anticoagulation are ecchymoses, subconjunctival hemorrhage, epistaxis, vaginal bleeding, bleeding gums, or hematuria". http://emedicine.med...-clinical#a0256

What more is there to read?

Arsenic is a major compound in many many brands of rat poison and is also manufactured in a liquid or powdered form that is absorbed through the skin rapidly and is 60 times more toxic than ordinary elemental 'Arsenic'.

aresenic doesn't cause bleeding gums.

All the speculation that is being made here on poisons, cause of death, motives are just that, pure speculation and give no real help or solace to anybody, least of all the grieving parents.

Not true. The speculation on this forum serves a useful purpose. The parents probably don't have a clue about the lying, face-saving, cover-up methods the Thais will employ to make these deaths appear 'natural' and 'excusable'. Family or friends of the family can read these posts and learn of the Thai penchant for cover-up, plus learn about the other 'mysterious' deaths on Phi Phi and Chiang Mai and thereby develop a healthy scepticism for whatever BS the Thais throw at them.

I fear for Guyinthailands blood pressure when he reads it

Don't worry bout my blood pressure (117/75). Worry about your Intelligence Quotient instead.

"More common findings of excessive anticoagulation are ecchymoses, subconjunctival hemorrhage, epistaxis, vaginal bleeding, bleeding gums, or hematuria". http://emedicine.med...-clinical#a0256

gentelmanJim: Doh!!!!

Warfarin exposure does not cause spontaneous bleeding of the gums.

"More common findings of excessive anticoagulation are ecchymoses, subconjunctival hemorrhage, epistaxis, vaginal bleeding, bleeding gums, or hematuria". (Warfarin and Superwarfarin Toxicity Clinical Presention Author: Kent R Olson, MD, FACEP; Chief Editor: Asim Tarabar, MD

http://emedicine.med...-clinical#a0256

geriatrickid: Doh!!!!

"According to The Phuket News online edition, a physician who performed a preliminary examination, Dr Komkrit Phukrityakame said he believed the two were victims of food poisoning.

"The source could have been a meal which included blowfish or poisonous mushrooms," Krabi Hospital director Kromkit said".

"Officials said they found vomit in the room and there was haemorrhaging of the sisters' lips and gums. Their fingernails and toenails had turned blue".

I cannot find in the medical literature where blowfish are said to cause coagulation disorders that would cause bleeding gums.

Poisonous mushrooms if they contain something called involutin, can cause blood in the urine and renal failure, which renal (kidney) failure can cause bleeding gums. ("Mushrooms that contain involutin may cause a life-threatening immune-mediated hemolysis with hemoglobinuria and renal failure"). Medscape: Medscape Access

So it is possible poisonous mushrooms are the culprit.

If that is the case, then the question must be asked: 'how is it that poisonous mushrooms were served to ONLY these two women out of the thousands of tourists on Phi Phi that day?'

If they were deliberately poisoned, then our killer has gotten smarter as he is not using a man-made poison, but one which can appear to have been ingested 'accidentally'.

Such symptoms are usually found on diseased people, the doctor said.

The Thais are going to spin this till our heads are dizzy. Too bad for them bleeding gums don't happen regulary in 'diseased people'. There are only a handful of things that can cause it. And food poisoning isn't on the list.

Let them prove it wasn't warfarin. Let them prove the women didn't die from rat poison.

^{The bleeding of gums associated with the poisoning refers to when the subject brushes his/her teeth and there is bleeding. If there had been reported nosebleeding, then perhaps warfarin might be implicated.}

Ridiculous. Someone poisoned with warfarin doesn't need to brush their teeth to bleed! hahahahah

You're thinking of a platelet disorder, or a coagulopathy disorder. Besides, even if you were right (which you aren't) don't you think they brushed their teeth?

Warfarin induces bleeds by virtue of the fact that it intereferes with Vitamin K, a necessary component of the coagulation system.

Warfarin doesn't need a toothbrush!

The true and correct suggestion just may put someone on the proper path for the real answer.

If you'd bother to have read the entire thread you would have seen I already gave you the 'true and correct suggestion' about 60 posts ago where I began demolishing the fanciful notions of arsenic, food poisoning, methanol, mushrooms, cholorine, regular insecticide, Dengue fever, DIC, septic shock, etc etc,.

Until proven otherwise, murdered by rat poison (warfarin/coumadin, etc, i.e., anticoagulants).

you may be making a fundamental error by assuming that the statements about vomit, bleeding gums and blue fingernails are gospel truth

Yeah, the Thai police made up the story of the bleeding gums to throw us off the path.

now it all adds up, all mouth and no substance ..... well that takes a lot of credibility out of your comments in a lot of peoples eyes , I am sure.

Well, you certainly answered the question about whether you have a brain of your own to figure things out.

Truth, logic and reasoning don't need a 'degree', gonzo the face.

Please keep us informed when the Thai 'authorities' with 'qualifications' start spewing drivel...so we will all be sure to sit up and pay attention and nod our heads...because...because Gonzo the Face says those with 'degrees' are always right.

This seems to cause confusion. Septic shock can cause systematic organ failure which in turn promotes a DIC response causing bleeding in mouth.

Septic shock doesn't present with bleeding gums. These women had bleeding gums.

"Symptoms of sepsis are often nonspecific and include fever, chills, rigors, fatigue, malaise, nausea, vomiting, difficulty breathing, anxiety, or confusion."

http://emedicine.med...168402-clinical

No mention was made of them vomiting blood. Moreover, DIC is a RARE thing and EXTREMELY unlikely to happen to two people at the same time. Vomiting and bleeding from the gums can indeed be found in DIC but

"Disseminated intravascular coagulation is rare, but it may occur as a complication of severe blood loss, severe infections, and severe burns. Other causes include head injury, liver disease, sepsis, and adult respiratory distress syndrome."

Did the women have 'burns, head injury, liver disease, sepsis, ARDS' that could have caused DIC?

(no)

http://www.freemd.co...on/overview.htm

In other words, posters should please refrain from your Sherlock Holmes investigations,

Simon

Okay, Simon43, we'll clear anything we want to say with you first.

Maybe then we would be able to further inform ourselves as to who is 'blowin smoke'.

Look forward to reading your qualifications..

You might try reading what I posted and then using reason to see if it makes sense.

Or do you think that someone with a certain degree is always right? Is that your idea of getting to the truth? Only rely on people with a degree? Is that it? You need someone with a degree to tell you what makes sense and what doesn't? You need someone with a degree to figure stuff out? You don't have a brain of your own?

The Thai authorities who are going to tell you this was all an accident surely all have degrees...and qualifications. Are you going to believe them just because they have 'qualificaitons'?

After all these posts, with detailed medical references, and you suddenly appear in this thread... to be...what...nothing more than 'contrary', with nothing of substance to say.

Guyinthailand

You have hijacked the complete thread which is meant ti be for the open discussion of what may have occurred. You are basing your assessment on symptoms that have been provided by low quality newspapers from first on the scene poorly qualified people. Your obtuse nature, does your argument no good and you are displaying your self as having a really unpleasant nature. I appreciate everyone is passionate about this but maybe you need to calm down, apologise and move on.

GentelemanJim: Do you have anything to contribute save for curmudgenly mutterings? You suddenly appear on this thread with nothing more than negativity.

What should I apologize for? Swatting down all the half-baked theories of how these women died and replaced them with an evidence-based appraisal? You, however, might apologize for posting an irrelevant rant that does absolutely nothing to propel the debate forward.

I eagerly await your contribution to this discussion.

Oh, wait! Here's one:

"(I'm suprised nobody has mentioned drones and hellfire missiles) that posters have stuck in their brainpan,"

(I've seen the effect of Warfarin on Pest Control operatives .... it takes a huge dose to cause acute any symptoms in something as large as a human, and so it could not be accidental)

"The toxic dose of warfarin is highly variable.....Superwarfarins are extremely potent and can produce prolonged effects even after a small ingestion; as little as 1 mg in an adult can cause coagulopathy. ...Bleeding is the primary adverse effect of warfarin and superwarfarin toxicity and is related to the intensity of anticoagulation, length of therapy, the patient's underlying clinical state, and use of other drugs that may affect hemostasis or interfere with warfarin metabolism.^[8] Fatal or nonfatal hemorrhage may occur from any tissue or organ.".

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/821038-overview

One milligram

The symptoms of the two victims - may they Rest in Peace ! - clearly point to insecticide - arsenic involved - poisoning.

did you just jump on the forum and not bother to read previous quotes? Arsenic has been dismissed as a possible poison. Rat poison with warfarin etc is the likely culprit.

They were murdered until proven otherwise.

Again!: Don't shoot of ignorance. http://cmr.asm.org/c...t/11/3/480.full

Also most harmfull agent used in rat-poison is Arsenic, .

Arsenic is not in rat poison. Warfarin etc is.

P.S. your url link you provide above leads to nowhere.

Virus such as hemorrhagic fevers could definitely cause DIC causing symptoms described. So could septic shock from a raging infection.

Septic shock doesn't present with bleeding gums. These women had bleeding gums.

"Symptoms of sepsis are often nonspecific and include fever, chills, rigors, fatigue, malaise, nausea, vomiting, difficulty breathing, anxiety, or confusion."

http://emedicine.med...168402-clinical

Vomiting and bleeding from the gums can indeed be found in DIC but

"Disseminated intravascular coagulation is rare, but it may occur as a complication of severe blood loss, severe infections, and severe burns. Other causes include head injury, liver disease, sepsis, and adult respiratory distress syndrome.

Common symptoms of disseminated intravascular coagulation include bleeding gums, coughing blood, heavy menstrual bleeding, vomiting blood, rectal bleeding, blood in stool, black stool, and nosebleeds. Other symptoms include confusion, cough, fever, and a rash that looks like bruises of broken blood vessels in the skin.

http://www.freemd.co...on/overview.htm

Doubt they had a RARE disease, much less at the same time. But it is theoretically possible.

The symptoms are textbook Arsenic poising (more common accidental, than commited).

Have you actually not bothered to read any of the above posts? Is it asking too much for you to do a little homework before you come here making these mistakes? All you had to do was read the above posts and see how it couldn't possibly be arsenic poisoning.

The symptoms are classic rat poison and far, far removed from arsenic poisoning.

I think the women might have suffered from Dengue hemorragic fever or Dengue shock syndrome.

Nope, can't be Dengue. Bleeding from gums and bruising are not symptoms of Dengue. Moreover, you get fevers, rash, headaches for days and days before hemorrhagic fever develops.

Of patients with dengue hemorrhagic fever, 90% are younger than 15 years. The initial phase of dengue hemorrhagic fever is similar to that of dengue fever and other febrile viral illnesses. Shortly after the fever breaks (or sometimes within 24 hours before), signs of plasma leakage appear, along with the development of hemorrhagic symptoms such as bleeding from sites of trauma, gastrointestinal bleeding, and hematuria. Patients may also present with abdominal pain, vomiting, febrile seizures (in children), and a decreased level of consciousness.

If left untreated, dengue hemorrhagic fever most likely progresses to dengue shock syndrome. Common symptoms in impending shock include abdominal pain, vomiting, and restlessness. Patients also may have symptoms related to circulatory failure.

http://emedicine.med...215840-clinical