Burgernev

i just hope the new government launches new draconian laws against tourists so that people will finally realize the grass is a lot greener in the nearby countries and leave thailand to the thais.

Quote recent report on Cambodia:

"Ho Vandy, Cambodian Minister for Tourism is quoted as saying 'We still lack flights carrying tourists from one area to another area. We need diversity in tourism.' Currently most visitors fly to Siem Reap in Cambodia and may choose to fly back out to Bangkok. Only 7% of tourists arriving in Cambodia go to the south coast."

Quote recent report on Thailand:

"The highest number ever of arrivals is in the most recent period: the first quarter of 2011 (at 5.33 million visitors). Total arrivals for 2010 where the highest on record, despite the actually very serious political disturbances in the second quarter of the year. It looks like 2011 is going to be the best year for tourism on record, and we may be heading for close to 20 million arrivals."

Harp on all you like Marco, tell as many people as you like how you couldn't hack Thailand, it's not going to change reality though, is it.

Cheers.

Until we are provided with copies of the chanote/lease the whole situation is difficult to read...........That is my main concern. If I understand the vendor correctly, the nominee Thai Lawyer holds the Lease and therefore ownership of the land so I suppose we will be purchasing from the Lawyer. That arrangement seems quite common but what worries us all is that the lawyer has so far been unable to provide ANY documentation!!

I understand what you're saying about the 'nominee' lawyer, but without the absence of some concrete documentation from the farang, over and about the lease then I'd say as far as it makes no difference the Thai lawyer will always be 'ajudged' to be the landowner and lessor, rather than nominee. Just as an aside can a Thai actually be a 'nominee' when holding land for a farang to lease, I thought they had to hold it so a farang can 'acquire' the land, ie: Limited company/Thai wife' route where you 'can' have control over it!?

But re: your main points if you have a lawyer on board you shouldn't move forward another step (and should have paid a deposit really) until you have a copy of the land title, your lawyer will then go to the land office and carry out the neccessary checks... in under an hour...

1) House registration documents - there may not be any missing docs here as the normm is probably that 99.99% of houses in Thailand don't seperate land and house, I don't know any Thais that separate it. That would be fine and you can carry out registration during/after purchase. If never done there will be a larger tax liability though.

2) Building Permit - may not be an issue as 5kms from town centre in Hua Hin is outside Tessabaan area and they are not required. If it is in an area required then as part of the buying process I'd expect them to go to Tessabaan, pay the few grand required and get one.

3) Lease - the land office can tell your lawyer/Thai friend in 5 minutes if there was an officially registered one or not, they will have registered it and have a copy attached to their land office 'original copy' of the chanute on file. If there is one and it was lost/withheld by lawyer then they can get a copy, IF the lawyer never actually registered one... then the fireworks may start and I'd walk away at that point.

I'm not sure if there is anything to be concerned about in the vendor's previous arrangements with the lawyer or if the lawyer is just totaly ineffective.

I'd say your lawyer is the one who's been ineffective (if he was on board at the time) as you're behind at the moment due to the deposit being paid. It may ne difficult getting it back without a clear agreement on what docs they were to give you at deposit stage, and even then....

This is only my experiences in HH and they can be different depending on which lawyer or land office official you use.

Good luck,

Burgernev.

Here you go Joe...

Showed a couple of other landmarks to help, you'll see the 'right turn' signs to Kiri Nakara on the main Pala-U Road, ie: the mountain road coming out of town.

All the sites I've marked on are built, this is a very old map image.

Burgernev

Hi Arran,

Can't add much re: costs that hasnt been said, and having to pay OTT per m2 in Hua Hin there's not a lot I can say really Not sure if any use, but have attached a list I did for a mate of things to check if the contractor has included in his price, should you want them that is. It's far from comprehensive and much of it I wouldnt expect them to neccessarily include in their basic rates. And on this general theme, it's vital imo to make a schedule of the material and finishes specs, types etc, and include it in the contract. Otherwise if they have a freehand with this, most of them will get the cheapest stuff going.

On the floor plan, if I read it right you got a nice large kitchen/dining room, but the master bedroom (I'm assuming bed no.1) isn't all that big at 4m x 3m. See attached pic of one of our bedrooms which is exactly that size, and it's a bit tight width wise. I don't know what you had in mind for the kitchen/diner, but personally I would steal a metre for the bedroom. Or, if that didn't work you could dog-leg the bedroom/kitchen wall and build-in recessed wardrobes, if it's kitchen cabinets going on that wall, then should be easy to hide/dress around. You could make the bathroom 0.5m longer then and put a door in from the bedroom so it's en-suite.

As bbradsby mentioned, structure the payments so they do not get much ahead cash-flow wise, the more, smaller stage payments the better, reduce your risk level here and you can be seen to be helpful elsewhere. The stage payments always overlap, and they always ask for payment early, which gets annoying, but to be fair if they've just delivered a stack of floor tiles and started that, then personally I'll pay them for the roof even though there's a 3 or 4 days work left on it, keeping a good rapport with the contractor should not be underestimated in the grand scheme of things.

Good luck,

Burgernev

Inclusions List.doc

Hello everyone,

I have just purchased 1 Rai of land on the outskirts of Hua Hin and need to raise the level of the land by about 1metre, prior to letting it settle for about one year. I was wondering if anyone has knowledge of the cost of landfill soil per truck load? If so, do you have any contact names & numbers. Thank you very much.

Hi, I prefer to work it by a lump sum than by the truck so can't help you on that, but 1m of landfil has been around 120,000 Baht/rai for the past couple of years where we are, there was a sudden jump from the previous 80k/rai as a result of the oil price spike. Ofcourse they never dropped it back down when oil prices came down. It will depend also on where you are in relation to the nearest source is, ask around your area and the Thais will know the local companies. Now's a better time than ever to shop around and get a good deal, seeing as everyone's desperate for work.

Also could you also tell me the standard cost of building a wall (per metre), height approx 1.5m, block type (rendered) to surround the property? Again if you have any contact names / numbers they would be much apreciated.

Price varies from builder to builder and what they think they can get away with, whether they're gonna get a nice house build from you or this their only job for you, that sort of thing. But from what I've seen and payed it's between 1,800-2,100 Baht per linear meter. That's with a src post every 2.8-3m with at least 1m deep footings into established earth, src beam at ground & top, render & paint both sides. Same story with oil, was 1,600/m a few years back. Again you should be able to better this if you shop around.

I'm sure you know already but don't let them have too much deposit or stage payments, it gives the less scrupulous one's the incentive to not finish the job properly, having a little agreement signed up, even just for a wall is normal in my experience. Good luck with whatever you're building, and ask to have a look round the builders recent jobs, most of them are only to happy to show you, if they're not then I'd probably not use them.

Cheers,

Double post, sorry.

Brother just got a taxi from Airport to Hua Hin, booked inside the airport at an official counter and it was 2,600 Baht.

Burgernev

You guys all seem to be in Bangkok, but just for your info True Move's 3G service (speeds 'allegedly' up to 7.2Mbps) is down here in Hua Hin/Cha Am too, plus Phuket, Samui and Chiang Mai according to their website. Speeds seem to be around 3x faster than EDGE/GPRS, but coverage is a bit limited to the town centre and then parallel along the beach line. I got the in-shop 3GS on monthly contract for 599B/month, includes unlimited internet, 300 call minutes & 300 sms, which works out way cheaper for me than their pay-as-you-go 3G sims.

Someone on the thread mentioned compatable phones, True only sell the iPhones and Blackberry Bold in their shop here, but their website says the following 'Thailand sold' mobiles are definately compatable with their 850MHz frequency ......

Nokia: 3120 Classic, 6120 Classic, 6267, 6500 Classic, 6500 slide, 6555, 6600 Slide, 6600 Fold, 5610 Xpress Music, 7900 Prism, E51

Sony Ericsson: K850i, W760i, C510, W508, W705, W995, C903, T707

Apple: iPhone 3G, iPhone 3GS

BlackBerry: iBold 9000

HP: HP iPAQ 912 ... whatever the hel_l that might be, sounds like a 'kin inkjet printer to me

Anyway that's enough excitement for me for today, I'm going back to sleep like the rest of the town!!

Cheers,

IOW new policy in Hua Hin. They used to dislike usufruct very much, wife or not.

Not really sure what they thought of them a few years back people weren't interested in them then as Limited Companies were the flavour of the day. We've been getting Usufructs registered with Thai spouses at Hua Hin land office without any issue since December '07. Others, includng local law firms are doing the same.

an usufruct with wife would probably be dissolved after divorce and property become her alone, or in best case shared 50/50, if there is no third parties

Yes the Thai spouse would no doubt seek to get it dissolved in the event of divorce, a competant lawyer would advise you to put another name (third party), like a trusted family member, into the agreement.

Burgernev

Hua Hin land office last year started actively pushing Usufructs' for foreign husband on Thai wife's land, and at same time started to actively object to 30 year leases between spouses. Visa class is not a consideration.

Usufruct with your wife is perfectly legal, there is the issue of agreements between spouses entered into during marriage possibly being able to be dissolved after divorce, but there's ways to protect against that re: 'third parties'.

Burgernev

And a 50/50 split can also work against a farang if he has registered the building (house) in his own personal name seperate from the land (as you would be wise to do) paid for out of his own personal funds that are not part of the marital assets. Then a 50/50 split of her 1M Baht land and your 5M Baht house doesn't look quite such a good deal !!!

This does only apply if the house was registered (actually the construction contract and building permit) done before marriage or else the house would be regarded as Sin Somros.

I don't believe this to be the case stgrhe. It can be purchased with your own personal funds that were acquired prior to marriage or even personal funds acquired after marriage, see the following section of the CCC:

Section1471 - Sin Suan Tua consists of:

(1) property belonging to either spouse before marriage;

(2) property for personal use, dress or ornament suitable for situation in life, or tools necessary for carrying on the profession of either spouse;

(3) property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will or gift

Take item (3) for instance property (money) you may inherit say 50 years after being married, you then buy a house with it and it's considered as 'Sin Suan Tua ', at least that's how I interpret this code!?!? Also I understand though that any gain in the house value over and above original purchase price (from your 'personal property') becomes 'marital property', and that gain is then subject to a 50/50 split.

Someone please correct me if this is wrong as I've given this advice (informally) to numerous people.

Cheers,

Burgernev

If after you were married, did your wife retain her maiden last name when she purchased the land?

The reason I ask is because a few years ago when my wife bought some land, I expected to sign this document you are being asked to sign. I was told that since my wife retained her maiden name and that her Thai ID indicated that she was still single, there was no need for me to sign. Now I am wondering if I too will be asked to sign this document in the near future (which will be fine by me). We don't live in Thailand, so perhaps this won't come up any time soon for me.

Hi donx, have highlighted a couple of parts of your post on a subject that has had a fair bit of debate where I live, hope you don't mind. The officials at our local land office do the same thing, ie: not requesting foreign spouse to sign the declaration if Thai wife has an ID card with her maiden name on it. But we've been advised by lawyers that this is the wrong practice by the officials and that surnames are irrelevant, because if you're married, you're married so to speak. The following extracts while not specifically addressing surnames, do seem to be a bit of a 'catch-all' ....

Extract From Land Code:

"An alien whose spouse is a Thai national either legitimate or illegitimate, that Thai national can purchase land but the alien spouse of that Thai national must give a joint written confirmation that the money which that Thai national will expend on purchasing the land is wholly the separate property or personal effects of that Thai national and not the Sin Somros or jointly acquired property."

Extract From Ministry of Interior:

The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage (with proper registration of marriage) or unlawful marriage (without proper registration of marriage)

We've been advised, but have never had it confirmed (so please take with a pinch of salt) that the Thai spouse has to indicate on one of the numerous forms when registering land whether or not she is married to a foreigner, this may well be part of the documents that the land office official fills out for you before they call you over to sign the bottom of each page. No doubt they indicate 'not married', if this is the case the Thai spouse has (unwittingly) made a false declaration. It covers the land offices' backside and we'll be left holding the baby.

Lawyers say you can go back retrospectively and make the declaration but then run the risk of drawing attention to it. If someone did want to retrospectiely sign it, just get a lawyer to have a chat with their pet official 'off the record' and see if it can be signed without any fuss for a few shillings

Burgernev

So clearly the Land Code requires that land acquired during marriage be from the personal property (Sin Suan Tua) of the Thai spouse and therefore cannot be marital property.

Agree that's the case as it's written, but there has been cases where the judge has not taken into account the land office 'declaration' and awarded a 50/50 split on the land and house, but ofcourse you can't rely on that at all. And a 50/50 split can also work against a farang if he has registered the building (house) in his own personal name seperate from the land (as you would be wise to do) paid for out of his own personal funds that are not part of the marital assets. Then a 50/50 split of her 1M Baht land and your 5M Baht house doesn't look quite such a good deal !!!

You should see a lawyer and have rights registered on the land title that will not be voided in event of divorce, this can be registered on the land title at the same time your Thai spouse registers this new land in her name. It can be done as one process by the land office officials before the land title is passed back across the counter into your spouses hands, preventing her from reneaging on registering you any rights.

IF YOU DON'T register any rights on the land title, then I'm not sure how long it takes to get before a divorce judge, or put a freeze on the assets (if that's actually possible to do on her land), but I do know she can sell the land to her mother in 45 minutes flat for well under the going rate at the land office, that includes well under the land offices' usual appraisal rates if you come to an 'arrangement' with the official. Seen that done first hand.

Then all you would have to do is chase her round the country, get her into court and get awarded 50% of this undervalued amount she sold it for, which unfortunately she has now lost at cards, so the court will order her to pay you 500 Baht a month for the next 150 years

Best to see a lawyer and get some rights registered on her land title, unless ofcourse she is actually using her own money to buy the land.

Burgernev

Burgernev - thank you for a very informative post, just one question, when you said "Farang should then go on to register the building in his own farang name at the land office" did you mean the Chanott ti din or the yellow book?

Hi pkrv, I should have been clearer with reference to registering the building at the land office, I was referring to houses (and shops, restaurants, bars etc) and not condos which is a different process. Farangs should always look to getting the house (separate from the land) registered in their own individual name where applicable, ie: where they purchased it with their own funds. It's a separate process to registering the freehold/leasehold of the land title (Chanote or other), you pay the property taxes and get a certificate of ownership in Thai. There isn't an official title deed for houses.

You're basically separating the building from the land in respect of ownership, which depending on your marriage circumstances to a Thai, can establish the original purchase cost of the house as your personal property in event divorce settlements.

You can obtain and be named in the Yellow Book whether you have registered the building in your name or not.

Cheers,

Burgernev

We are Farangs but are not resident, we are on a tourist visa but still have a blue book - our names are not in this book. I am guessing that the reason is that we are freeholders (you can be with a Farang quota condominium).

The reason is not specifically because you are freeholders or farang quota in a condo block. EVERY farang, irrespective of spouses nationality, visa type, leasehold of land, Usufruct on land, freehold of land under Thai partner, Limited Company ownership should receive the Blue Book when purchasing property, even a house, providing he has purchased the building (house) on the land himself.

Farang should then go on to register the building in his own farang name at the land office, he then legally owns the Blue Book as it is the building's registration document and should get passed on to future new owners. If Limited Company then Blue Book is 'normally' the companies property.

As said in Isaan Lawyers very helpful OP, farang can then get a yelow book with his name in, or if has PR go in the Blue Book.

If a brand new build from developer there's normally no names at all in the Blue Book, not even developers/builders, totally blank and it can quite happily stay that way until you sell on the building, or have Thai family/residents to put in it.

Burgernev

Apologies to OP as a bit off-topic from your useful Yellow Book thread.

Re: modular housing that can be re-located, presumably under the law this would be classed as 'movable property'. The laws, local government requirements, tax implications etc that most of us are familiar with applies to 'immovable propery' (crude definition: 'things fixed permanently to the land'.)

Apart from the obvious advantages at the end of your 30 year lease, I wonder if there's any additional key advantages under the above!?!? Land ownership would remain un-affected ofcourse.

Interesting pictures lazygourmet, for me if your friend added some in-expensinve external cladding, even shiplap, it would make it look far more attractive, not to mention assist with heat transfer.

Don't think I can post pictures, but if you do a search on 'containers converted to housing' there's some amazing designs out there. Food for thought indeed.

Burgernev

thanks alot troopie its just that someone told me a ex military policeman called steve ran a bar and also was the honorary consul

Hi Brian,

British Embassy Consular Correspondent Hua Hin:

Steve Ketteringham Tel: 086-7933461

Email: [email protected]

Read he runs the 'Captains Inn' guesthouse/bar.

Burgernev

Yes there is, his name is Steve but can't remember surname.

Read about it in local publications.

Sorry can't be more helpful but he is there so making some enquiries should track him down.

Burgernev

As ballbreaker said, your best bet is to try and obtain a lease or other right to use the property, this has to be issued by the mother-in-law, get a lawyer to help with this. As it sounds as though your land is in their village, then as GaryA rightly says if the relationship turns sour, lease or not, you will not be living in the house. Law of the jungle will see to that.

Re: The house building being complete after marriage but registered in then girlfriends name before marriage, she can just say she paid for all building works upfront to get a big discount off the builder (with an engagement gift from you, family money from under the mattress, or whatever), and magically produce a receipt from builder for same. You will then get your receipts out and say you paid for part of building works after marriage, result = 2 years taking family to local court, paying lawyers, stress, threats. Forget that mate. And even if you win wife will have no money to pay you back your half and can't sell to give you back your money as mother-in-law refuses to sell her land!?!?

If you already smell a rat and relationship is rocky then I personally would stop now, if all is well in relationship then as another poster said just live happy with her for as long as it lasts. But above all, seek legal advice asap.

Good luck with it all anyway, Burgernev

my understanding of thai matrimonial law is that all assets that accrue to couples after marriage are owned 50-50.

Generally yes, but the law specifies certain instances where property (ie: assets) accrued during the marriage will still be classed as 'personal property', for either spouse. One of these specified in the CCC's, Section 1471, is: 'Property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will or gift'

Burgernev

3.2 In the case where a Thai national who has an alien spouse, whether legitimate or illegitimate, applies for permission to accept a gift of land during marriage or cohabitation as husband and wife. If the inquiry reveals that the acceptance of the gift is made with the intention that the land will become the separate property or personal property of the donee without resulting in the alien having co-ownership in the land, the competent official will proceed with the registration of rights and juristic act.

My reading of section 3.2 in the event of future legal proceedings or land office enquiry, would come down to: "without resulting in the alien having co-ownership in the land."

In the case of land where a family live in a home, and the declaration was signed with land title in Thai spouse's personal name, then my understanding of the 'co-ownership' section of the Civil and Commercial codes determines that the foreigner does not have "co-ownership" in the land. He will be having 'co-usage', benefitial use or whatever, but is not a co-owner.

However, where the land was later used for another purpose where the foreigner financially benefited from it, for example sub-dividing and developing then the foreigner would be considered having 'co-ownership'.

Burgernev

If the foreigner and the Thai wife sign this declaration and the funds DID come from the foreigner, then they have made a false statement.

I can't see how you are making a false statement as the declaration is only confirming the funds are spouse's own 'private property'. The declaration does not refer to the source of the funds and I've never heard of a procedure where you have to declare a gift from the foreigner!?

Re: 'Signing your rights away' to the land, you are, but only under certain circumstances. As 5 minutes later you and your spouse could sign your 'rights' back to the land in a will (leaving to one side the likelyhood of inheritance ownership actually being granted.)

Burgernev

The price per square meter is currently around double that in Hua Hin from local building companies...

50,000 a sqm????? what a rip off

I believe, he will correct me if I'm wrong, that hhfarang mean't double the 6,250/m2. 12-14k/m2 is what I've experienced, but that's based on contractors cheap finishes. You need to clearly specify your required quality of materials, if an individual build, so you need to budget higher than those rates.

Also there could be a lot of items of the property overall that the m2 rate does not include, perimeter walls, kitchen, landscaping, gates/fences, a/c's, utility connections/meters, sandwashing, flyscreens, surface water drainpoints, sufficient power points, hotwater at taps, roof insulation, elec earthing, security metal to windows & doors etc.

Burgernev

You need to note in my post I said visa an extension of stay is not a visa is the point I was trying to make. You can get a visa valid for one year but it only gives you 90 days each entry. The length of extension you get will depend upon the school you attend and your course of study plus the documentation given by the education ministry.

Sorry, I understand that visas and extensions are different I should have clarified that when quoting your comments. The point I wanted to make is that 'apparently' some Immigration offices will give, after the initial 90 days, a year's extension/permission to stay with only reporting required every 90 days as opposed to 1,900 Baht extensions every 90 days.

I hadn't heard of this before for the private schools, and thought it something new ? The 'ED' is not relevant to me, so haven't read all the posts on this thread, but a friend is planning on enrolling, so apologies if already been covered.

Cheers,

Burgernev

They are calling an extension a visa which it is not. Thats why you are getting confused.

An ED visa is either a single entry good for one entry of 90 days or a multiple entry that can be used for year leaving and entering every 90 days for a year. There is no ED visa that allows you to stay for one year.

Not sure if the following is correct or not, but was reported elsewhere ............

This is now the situation with Hua Hin area. Cannot speak for other areas... When arriving in Thailand on a Single Entry ED Visa, you are granted a 90 day Permission to Stay. About 20 days before the expiration of this Permission to Stay, with documents provided by the Ministry of Education and 'x' local school certifying that you are undertaking 12 months of study, the immigration office will grant 12 months Permission to Stay. 90 day reporting of address is still in force, as with all visas. There is only one payment of Baht 1,900 (to immigration) for the year.

Burgernev

PS: I edited out the name of the school for obvious reasons.