huahinheartbreak

I am interested in learning the political history of the southern provinces. I read somewhere

that they were incorporated into Thailand in 1902. How did this happen, if its the truth? I unsuccessfully googled.

Or maybe they just felt sorry for poor old Mobi when he recounted his miserable, foolish story to the judges.

How expensive is all this litigation? If one has to go to litigation can one get a flat fee, or contingency, in lieu of pay by the hour? and what is a "reasonable" by the hour fee, if there is a reasonable fee?

I have a contract with a builder that requires arbitration before litigation if the parties cannot come to an amicable agreemetnt. Where can I educate myself on arbitration? Arbitrtion is supposed to be binding. but if one party doesnt like the result, wont they just say, sue me.

"life is a tale told by an idiot"

1. You are 27 and you aren't ready to retire to Thailand to live

3. You have not known your Thai GF for very many years.

4. You have very limited funds and almost all your assets will be tied up in the house.

1. I am 27 and i AM ready to move to thailand to live (Not retire though),

2. Correct but i have known her for a few years,

3 Correct i have not much money and ALL my assets will be tied up in the house,

1. I rented a place at Jomtien beach road soi 7 for 1 year for us to live there,

2. Yeah saving is all i have been doing for 2 years now, Its hard though as i send my girlfriend most of what i have left after i have paid my bills. I have worked everyday (sometimes double shifts) without having a sick day for the past 2 years lol. haha.

someone wrote:

"Buy in Thailand when you stay here at least 1 year. The place is a lot different than you imagine.

What you are asking here says to me you still don't know enough to make such a big decision. And there is no rush"

I made many mistakes. The biggest one was not living here for "at least a year" before "trying to buy and build." I know nothing about building and apparently neither do many many "builders/developers." You may read many horror stories on Thaivisa, of which mine is one.

Thailand is much different than I imagined. This is not the UK nor USA as far as the "sanctity" of contracts goes. But I am a farang and cant read the language, dont know the culture of the legal system, bureaucracy. It seems so easy to get what you want if you have no fear of just saying "What will it cost to get that done?" The law seems to be what the bureaucrats say it is and getting things done will cost you what they say it will. This is very hard for me to get used to. I dont have a Thai spouse so I am a lamb led to the slaughter. A friend said, taxes are low in Thailand so look at "tea money" as added tax.

If I had followed my first plan, rent for at least a year to see if I really liked Thailand, if I had had experiences with visa runs, looked into rules on buying cars, motorcycles, look into building contracts, how to acquire the use of landand had not be seduced by the rising prices and desire to lock in a "good deal" I would have saved myself 10 million baht worth of heartbreak. My mistakes have now consumed two years of my life, greatly strained my happy marriage as we battle with land owners/lessors, developers, and lawyers, immigration officials, land dept officials, building permit dept officials, etc. I am exhausted. I am now renting, while trying to get a settlement on a building project gone bad.

You might get lucky and beat the odds of divorce rate, Thai ladys that marry a walking ATM, get a house built, etc. and ... either things go bad or they were planned all along. You send most of your savings to her. Good luck mate.

I read a book PRIVATE DANCER by a Brit, with a Brit as the male protagonist. It is a very dark story, with side servings of other dark stories. While not what Thailand is all about, it is what some of Thailand is about. And something I think every farang should read, probably other good "scare you cautious" books out there if someone could name a few, and also I would like to hear of some books telling of "dreams that came true." that hopefully have some good tips on "how to"

make it work in Thailand.

Just in passing I read recently that Malaysia has just offered a renewable 10 year "social visit pass" to those who deposit about $85,000 USD in a Malaysian bank, and I think for $50,000 you will be granted a retirement visa in Panama no matter what your age. I sure wish Thailand would make it easier to come and go.

sadder but wiser and cautiously optimistic

I don't see a problem. All those young men will be enchanted and find themselves busy at Nana etc. and everyone will end up a lot happier.

they wont be happy, you dont find virgins at Nana. they will have to kill some infidels to get em,

that would be us Thais. not a pretty thought. It's a clash of cultures, like it was 1000 yrs ago. Today we have liberals in the western nations and radicals in the muslim nations.

bottom line In the west you can be christian, buddhist, jewish, hindu, even muslim or nothing at all. In muslim countires you can be muslim.... or dead. make your choice

do you mean you might get all your money back (50% +50%) and still keep your half built house and the land it stands on , or that you will give up title to the land and the half built house in return for your money back?

Get our money back and return the half-baked house.

so any update HHHB??????

Yes, actually there is.

We got a settlement offer of 50% refund in five months and 50% in another five month "if the cash flow allows it."

Say what!!??

We've forwarded it to our lawyer, who is preparing a response.

One of the primary points of contention is that the developer says we've been late in payments because we didn't pay according to schedule; on the other hand, the schedule was tied to construction milestones which were not completed. Which prevails - the date or the milestone? The developer says the date, regardless of milestone completion and we say the milestone, regardless of date.

HHHB

Hi Dabiff

Well going to a bookstore and buy a real house or an architect dream?

I'm a technician and know how things work, have been around in the construction biz too long and I know how they build houses in Thailand. Architect designs and real living in a house are two seperate things, in Thailand architects have two much saying in constructing houses. Thai houses run high in running and maintainance costs. Just look around and you see the low standards of keeping houses in a good condition. Yes there are to many bad house construction builders, but do not call me the worst of them, sorry bad assumption. Buying a house in Thailand is a big gamble and that is why so many peaople build their own house, to keep a close eye on the progress. And we who lived here for a while know this and it is a fact. For the HH house I still say finish the house and move on, according the pictures I still state that it is not of good quality, but also not of the lowest I have seen around.

Dear Master Chief,

I've thought of simply trying to hire somebody to finish the house, but other builders we've had look at it said they wouldn't want to try and fix something that's broken. It seems to me that if we could tear down the walls (which look really crappy, uneven cement, gaps, wood stuck in extra big gaps...) and start over at the foundations, we might be able to get something worth living in or selling.

But ... we'd be in the middle of our current builder's development, and i don't think he'd take too kindly to that. Seems there's a lot he could do to sabotage us, our electricity, our water, our workers, etc. Or, even do personal harm. Doesn't seem like a good situation all around.

Still seeking answers,

Hua Hin Heartbreak

Heartbreak.

You have paid out 2.5 million for a build that when complete will value circa 7 million.

Go to the law firm I suggested (Tillek and Gibbons) and get advice on how to procede.

Do not mess around in HH, all you are doing is telegraphing your actions to him.

Do not play that influence game, calling in people who might be able to help - Go to the law, and go to the best lawyers you can afford.

Don't get involved into name calling, just get the lawyers on the case.

The amount of writing you have done here would, directed at the Lawyers I suggest, get you real advice on how to procede.

If there is any influence to bring, it is the influence of Thailand's most respected law firm, use them.

Thanks for pointing us to Tilleke & Gibbins (http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/). We are now discussing with them how to proceed, sending them documents and correspondence, etc. As somebody else mentioned, we shouldn't discuss specifics while our filings are in process. As the OP (thanks for the def!), I'll try to keep this up to date as things evolve.

It's quite stressful for us, as I'm still working fulltime as a computer science professor and department chair in the U.S., but school's out in two weeks, and I'll have more time to focus. One thing I'm sure of, somewhere and sometime, he'll get his just rewards...

HHHB, the OP

His legal advisor has threatened us with "defamation of character" if we say anything, though he just sent a letter to the other home buyers defaming us. This entire business is one huge nightmare, and we thought we were doing everything right two years ago...

Hua Hin Heartbreak

Defamation is a criminal offence in Thailand, if he really has done this - you could get your lawyer to start criminal proceedings...

Wouldn't advise getting him put in prison until the OP has had her money back.

We're getting started with a Bangkok lawyer - made more difficult because we're in the US, not Thailand.

So, what exactly is "defamation?" If it is a fact that reflects negatively (e.g. the house is four months behind schedule and is maybe half finished), is that defamation? Or is that simply something that people can use to threaten and then let the arbitrators and courts figure it out?

And what is OP?

HuaHinHeartBreak,

Sorry to hear about your plight. Is your building contract with the farang's development company or with a local Thai contractor ? That is how many development projects are set up here in Hua Hin.

Burger

I'm not sure I understand your question. The contract is with the farang's development company which is a registered Thai company.

Out of interest how long have you been in dispute with him?

>>> seriously, about three weeks

Have you now got a lawyer?

>>> we've engaged a Hua Hin lawyer and are talking with a Bangkok lawyer

What will your new company achieve for you?

>>> it seems like it's good to have in case we have any future Thai property transactions. Probably nothing right now.

Exactly how many other people are in the same situation as you?

>>> wow. 15? 20? By same, I mean late on delivery, payments ahead of schedule, quality less than promised. As far as I know, we're the only on he has his legal advisor (NOT lawyer) threatening us with defamation, criminal action, etc. Everybody else is eerily quiet, IMHO hoping to get things done before something more drastic happens.

Has he completely stopped all work on his projects?

>>> nope. Just ours.

How many projects do you know he is running and approximately how many houses?

>>> five projects; twenty or thirty + houses

What is the current asking prices (Ball Park) of his builds?

>>> I'm not sure. I'm guessing 7M - 9M

What land size are you building on?

>>> 2200 sqm approx.

A lot of you have sent me PM's asking for the name of the developer and the development. I'm reluctant to disclose it as long as there's the slightest hope we can settle this with some civility. Also, his legal advisor has threatened to charge us with "defamation of character" if we discuss this publicly. Lastly, in reading the rules of this forum, I'm not supposed to name names.

Does anybody know if truthfully telling the facts about our business dealings constitutes "defamation" under Thai law? That is, is it defamation to describe things like contractual details, milestones, and dates without calling people crooks, thieves, incompetents, etc.

Thanks for your feedback.

Hua Hin Heartbreak

Sounds like you should have found this website before you invested any money.

You have made many significant mistakes that a little research would have prevented.

The thing about dodgy builders is that they would not exist if there were no foolish customers about.

Did you ask the developer to show you previous satisfied customer and their properties?

And... more info.

When we bought in July, 2004, he was just getting started. He had one development underway and was starting to clear land for a second development. I think that part of his problem is that he got too greedy - saw all of the money to be made from expatriates, started more projects, won't delegate any authority and is basically in above his head, cutting corners, and denying that a lot of customers are just plain angry. Two years ago, he hadn't developed his grand empire yet and had things under a little more control...

Sounds like you should have found this website before you invested any money.

You have made many significant mistakes that a little research would have prevented.

The thing about dodgy builders is that they would not exist if there were no foolish customers about.

Did you ask the developer to show you previous satisfied customer and their properties?

Mea culpa, we are obviously foolish customers. However, we did do our due diligence, or at least thought we did. We talked with two customers who - although they had problems in building, and it would be naive to think there wouldn't be ANY problems - were occupying their completed houses and were generally satisfied. We toured those houses and they looked fine. The rest of the houses were under construction, and some of those others are over a year late. We also talked with a Thai lawyer about the differences between setting up a Thai company and leasehold, and chose the leasehold path (though we've since set up a Thai company preparatory to owning the land.)

Hua Hin Heartbreak

Pity that you don't own the land as the 2 years since you signed the contract land prices have probably doubled or more in Hua Hin and you could re-coup. Please PM me the name of the project as the more people who know in HH the better.

I'd bet the land, which is on the south side of Hua Hin where there are many expatriate communities springing up, has indeed doubled. If the developer were as smart as he thinks he is, he'd settle with us, finish the house, and sell it for another 4M baht.

I don't think our lease says anything specific about building, just that we can convert to owning it anytime we want to for only the admin fees. Of course, he's got to subdivide first, which he hasn't done. We live in Hawaii right now, and leasehold is common here, so we were comfortable with it.

I'm not ready to identify just yet, still clinging to the hope we can settle this with civility rather than rancor.

Hua Hin Heartbreak

if you own the land already , i.e. have the title deed , then you could cut your losses by not paying him any more and when you are ready employ your own contractor to finish the building work.

you woukld be surprised at how inexpensive it would be , compared to what you are paying already.

please send me the name of the project (by thaivisa pm)

We have thought of doing this. However, we had one engineer from Pattaya come over and inspect our project, and it was his opinion that nobody else would want to touch it, as the basic work was so shoddy. Another problem is electricity and water - he's running a line from his nearby project across a road to our house, so it would take some kind of doing to get our own electricity there (maybe not a big deal?) Still, it might be worth getting some other opinions - anything to get something back.

Incidentally, we don't own the land, but we do have the registered lease document (we took it to another Thai lawyer to verify it is authentic). So, I'd guess we can indeed continue to build if we want to.

Hua Hin Heartbreak

Without having view of the Contract it is obviously impossible to consider whether breach of contract has occured! I presume you have employed a lawyer from outside the area? Essential!

It would be possible for your lawyer to apply for an Interlocutory Injunction to, as GuestHouse suggests, confiscate the Defendant's passport.But unless the police are willing to pursue fraud allegations this would be unlikely to succeed.

I'm afraid there is little left to do except allow your lawyer to proceed. As Thaising suggests a Group Action may be possible.

However you may consider the fact that this may push him over the edge and he may file for bankruptcy.

If I were your lawyer I would proceed with Civil Action for Breach of Contract, whilst contemplating the fraud element. Expensive! But you should, if awarded judgement, be able to claim Statutory Interest on money paid.

Keep us up dated. Good Luck.

Thanks for the advice and suggestions. It's amazing that the other 20+ homebuyers are so timid - I think that they must think that by "being nice" they'll get their houses completed, and so they don't want to raise any issues just yet. I've contacted a big Bangkok law firm to see what they can/will do for us.

The major breach of contract is that the house was to be delivered on 31/12/2005. Of course, nobody really expects construction to be completed on time, but he went a step further - he sent us invoices for milestones that weren't completed (like putting the roof on!), still aren't completed and likely never will be completed. You can see from the photo album that the two buildings are so close together there's no way he can put a roof on the second (and larger) building and have it look anywhere close to attractive. He threatened to stop work if we didn't pay, so like meek sheep, we paid. The contract says that we can send a notice of termination and get our money back, but of course he just laughed at that one.

His legal advisor has threatened us with "defamation of character" if we say anything, though he just sent a letter to the other home buyers defaming us. This entire business is one huge nightmare, and we thought we were doing everything right two years ago...

Hua Hin Heartbreak

Sorry to hear of your problems. Do you have photos of the house, and the name of the company?

cv

We have dozens of photos, and I've posted some in an album here:

House Heartbreak Photos

It's a Thai-Bali style house, with three separate buildings. The master bedroom bldg and the main house bldg are SO CLOSE together, that there's no room to put a roof on the master house building. There are a few photos of erosion, where he attempted to build a retaining wall that simply washed away in the next rainstorm.

Yes, I do have the name of the company, but in reading the rules of behavior for this forum, I understand I cannot post this, and at this point I prefer not to.

Meanwhile, this developer is building at least 20 more houses in Hua Hin, and they all have problems (no building permits, for starters; no plans with structural, electrical, waste, etc drawings; no circuit breakers in houses, which has caused small fires). It seems the other farangs are too timid to take any action, hoping that by "being nice" they will get their houses completed someday. Meanwhile, he keeps selling more...

We are gathering our documents and our courage - as I fear for our safety if we ever want to return to Hua Hin.

Hua Hin Heartbreak...

Thanks for your suggestion. We do have all of the paperwork: contract, receipts from wire transfers, emails full of promises - and more recently - threats. We're not in Thailand right now, though we have engaged a Thai lawyer who seems marginally competent. We still love Hua Hin, but feel so helpless in this matter which undermines the very core of our retirement plans.

Nearly two years ago, my husband and I contracted with a farang developer to build our "dream retirement home" in Hua Hin. To this day, the house is a shell, with water erosion, cracking cement, and many blatant construction errors (yeah, like he put in wood floors without any windows or doors in the building - ruined with standing water from the rains).

It's obvious the man has no intention of completing our house even though he has received millions of baht from us.

Does anybody know of a Thai authority we can complain to?

Hua Hin Heartbreak