Big Joke

2 hours ago, tgw said:

 

3 million from 1000 members?

3000 per member per year?

This can't be true? Your members must have paid per round fees + caddies

  Firstly I made a total mistake. I compared Navatanee members yearly subscriptions to my clubs TOTAL members revenue. For example at my club a member rents a cart that is members revenue.

Caddie fee is not club income. The yearly fees entitles a free green fee. So from 1000 members in 1995 who are officially still members today, but inactive, only 178 pay the yearly maintenance costs of 18000 baht to obtain the free green fee or a 10% discount in the restaurant. In 2000 the members income from 12,000baht yearly fees was 11million baht so around  900 members paid their dues.

On 12/6/2020 at 4:09 PM, tgw said:

 

you assume wrong, I'm not a Brit! but thanks for indirectly complimenting my third language ????

 

thanks for the info about costs - where do these come from?

 

can you give some examples of B grade courses ?

 

a golf course available for 780 million doesn't make it worth 780 million. if you check the poll, you see there is a question about the membership buy-in cost which would be meant to cover initial costs.

1000 x 500.000 = 500 millions

600 x 1.000.000 = 600 millions

 

Plutaluang is a very playable course, even given its many imperfections - 10.000 baht a year for unlimited play is a ridiculously low price.

 

Costs. I come from a Thai family that are involved in golf from general manager to green keeper. (But not the Pattaya area)

The grading of courses in the Eastern Golf Management Association is an internal grading system to determine the range of green-fees, caddie fees and cart fees. So a none associated club has no rating. Easy to see the A grade.

On 12/6/2020 at 3:43 PM, scubascuba3 said:

I find it hard to believe a Crystal Bay, Mountain Shadow type course costs 40,000,000 baht a year to run. Rarely do you see green staff on any course, often the caddies get roped into weeding. Most courses bar a few aren't maintained well, I.e not weeded properly, bunkers not raked, grass not cut properly, no way 40m baht. No point comparing costs of Siam Country Club etc

The OP said a "championship" standard course. No way is Crystal bay or Mountain Shadow  in that league so their maintenance costs will be greatly reduced.

On 12/9/2020 at 2:57 AM, tgw said:

 

great, they even got their financial annual reports online.

http://www.navatanee.com/news/agm/2555/annual_report_50_eng.pdf

 

but this is a private commercial club.

5. Shareholding and management structure

Mr. Sukum Navapan and related persons 15,344,865 (74.85%)

The highlights for me from the 2019 AGM and F/R are

Question from the floor. Why does Navatanee only permit 30,000 visitor rounds per year?

Answer from MD. Navatanee is primarily a members club. Any more visitors would affect the members enjoyment of playing.

Policy statement. Maximum 4 balls on weekdays and weekends. Maximum time permitted for a 4 ball is 4 hours.

Interesting to note that they have almost the same number of members (1093) as the club I am a member at. Their members revenue for 2019 was 38 million baht, ours was 3 million.

Here we are speculating on TV if a private club would work in Thailand. As my father has just told me why not check out Navatanee as that is a privately ran club. It is even quoted on the SET so full financials are disclosed.

CITY SPORTS AND RECREATION PUBLIC COMPANY LIMITED

Looking back at old Thai golf guides an interesting trend appears. Taking 1993 and 100 baht as a start point the cost of the caddie fee doubles every 10 years. I wonder if the fee will be 700/800 baht in 2023?

The cart fee has stayed static at 600 baht, or so I thought. But it was 2 persons per cart, so a price now of 600/800 per person means that the cost has at least doubled. It is around 2005 that the price 600/1 or 600/2 appears.

The following is a condensed history of the last time, to my knowledge, that an attempt was made to establish a golf club owned by the members, ran by the members, for the members, in Thailand. These are not my recollections but my mother's and father's who were involved from the beginning. A little background.

There were already “members” where, for an annual fee, no green fee payment was required. Not content with this one concession, some members were able to form a member's committee working within the club. The most important item was that they were able to meet with the manager once a month to discuss members interests, also they were able to secure a F&B discount.

Due to the hoards of visitors playing to the detriment of members, a committee decision was made to pursue the take over of the club. They were lucky in that the driving force behind the idea was an influential westerner who had the ears of the rich and powerful in Thailand. This item was critical, as without it, they were doomed to fail.

The purchase price discussed was in the region of 1 billion baht. Obviously this was a no starter, but as the club had never turned a profit they were willing to lease for 1 million baht a month, but of course only a 30 year lease would be available. (this is the year 2000 ) The committee thought they could get the running costs down to around10 million a year, so an annual expenditure of 22 million Baht. If a 1000 people joined the annual fee would be 22,000 baht. After a marketing survey, it was discovered that if they could get 250 members they would be lucky. So now an annual fee of 100,000 baht. Biggest reason given for not interested in joining. “Don't want to be tied to playing one course”. Remember this is the days of the 200 baht caddie fee and 400 baht green fee.

It was never made known publicly how the club would function legally although a lease agreement would perhaps smooth this over

My reason for posting is just to set the record that an attempt was made to establish a private club, even though it was 20 years ago, not a discussion.

PS

As everyone knows private clubs end up with a couple of people doing all the work. This committee was no different, as within a year the members attending the meetings with the manager went from 12 to 2. But they still bitched and moan about the way the club treated them. Even to this day.

On 12/4/2020 at 3:11 AM, tgw said:

Many golfers in Thailand face high per-round costs at their usual courses, while courses with flat yearly membership fees and no additional compulsory cost per round are very rare.

 

Let's put legal aspects aside and think about how many of us would be ready to acquire a membership in such a golf course and for how much.

 

Project cornerstones:

- conveniently located at a similar distance from the city as other nearest courses (for Pattaya this would mean within the arc between Burapha/Laem Chabang and Cheechan, following route 331 - other locations in Thailand use your imagination)

- minimum 18 holes championship course, not a cheap setup, a good course with good maintenance

- optional carts and optional caddies, no per-round fee for members

- memberships are perpetual, meaning they don't expire. when the membership holder dies, the membership is inherited

- club policies/management priorities/investments set yearly by the member's general assembly

 

Proposed main fee structure for members (theoretically the course should be able to run on minimal maintenance with these fees):

- initial memberships fee for fund setup

- yearly maintenance fee for members

 

So the question here is not about project costs or feasibility, the question is about how much would a resident golfer in Thailand be ready to pay for a membership ?

 

As an additional question, if you have knowledge about golf course economics in Thailand, could you please comment on costs of building an 18-hole course (without cutting corners), land costs and maintenance costs in Thailand ?
Yes, I realize the land cost is very location dependent, but a few ballpark figures would be useful to put things in perspective.

Assume you are a Brit with preconceptions of how a private golf club memberships is applied in UK. This concept will never be  realized in Thailand.

"Membership" in Thailand is a means of obtaining a discounted or free green fee. Nothing more nothing less.

Some facts. You talk about an 18 hole "championship" course. A B grade course in the Eastern seaboard area costs between 35 and 45 million a year to maintain. So with 1000 members you are looking at 40,000 baht a year fees just to maintain the course, ignoring purchase costs.

Costs could be reduced if 16 people working in the restaurant and 4 people in the locker room were let go. Just imagine if a "member" had to wait 15 seconds to be served a beer or they had to bring their own towel. Standards would drop as cost complaints increased.

 There was a golf course available in the Pattaya area for 780 million baht. How would you propose to fund the initial purchase price for members?

Would I pay 10,000 baht a year for a Navy Fleet type course. Probably not.

Would I pay 100,000 baht a year for a Laem Chabang type course. Probably not.

To the poster who thinks you could build a golf course in Thailand for 50 million baht. The grass seed bill for a well known course was 3 .9 million baht.

Make up your mind. Last month 30% of Thai golf courses will close. Now there is not enough courses in Thailand to cater for the increase in players. 

My Father has a theory regarding expat bars being quiet at this time. In the olden days of partying in Bangkok most bars clientele would be a 50, 50 mix expat residents and tourists. Then the bar owners made their decision to chase only the tourist dollar via their pricing regime.

I walked up soi 4 at 1500 on a Saturday which used to be a very busy, time and saw a total of 3 customers in the left side bars and 1 on the right side. The exception was the non English named bar, which has never been known as a tourist haunt, that had around 10 to 15 customers.

I then went to my local Thai ran bar on On Nut who's special is all the local beer you can drink in 2 hours for 399 baht. It was absolutely heaving with 50 % Thais and 50% westerners.

5 hours ago, stouricks said:

The Macro Wagyu Burgers are made from THAI Wagyu beef!

I was just pointing out that Wagyu beef is not exclusive to Japan. Patties in Scotland are made with Scottish Wagyu beef as the offcuts are relatively cheap compared to the steak cuts. It is a good selling point.

Whats's it like?

British Wagyu meat is one of our popular products, because it come direct from our own farm, here at Kezie. We're proud to fly the Quality Meat Scotland (QMS) flag, so can guarantee you a supreme product.

Our British Wagyu meat is sourced direct from our own farm.

Home bred here at Kezie

Our Wagyu Burgers are manufactured by us, here at Kezie.

Our Wagyu Beef is graded 5-6 on the marbling scale

Pack includes 2x Scottish Wagyu Quarter Pounders

Price: £2.94

14 hours ago, stouricks said:

Macro sell frozen Thai 'Wagyu' beefburgers, doubting whether they have ever seen Japan, but they are very reasonable, better than Tescos.

The Australian Wagyu Association is the largest breed association outside Japan. Both full blood and Wagyu cross cattle are farmed in Australia for domestic and overseas markets, including Taiwan, China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, the U.K., France, Germany, Denmark and the U.S. Australian Wagyu cattle are grain fed for the last 300–500 days of production.

Last year talked to a guy who had just got his 5 year elite. He told me that under his visa sticker is a hand written note in Thai, that was explained by the Elite agent says "Note to immigration. If less than 1 year remains on visa expiry date entry will be only granted until visa expiry date"

If I see him again will try to get copy of this note to translate . English is not his first language so maybe something lost in translation.

It is often mentioned that residential properties particularly houses used as sole residency attract no tax. Last year my parents property was assessed at 49.75 square meters. Could not figure out the reason. Took us a while to realise that the assessment was the 2 car garage and storage room at the bottom of the garden which is a separate structure from the house. Sure enough we measured the floor area and it is 49.75 sm. The bill just came and it is 343 baht to pay.

15 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Would that mean your ‘good friend of the family’ arrived in Thailand on Oct 21st, 2019 with a Non-Immigrant Multi O and was stamped in for 90days (to Jan 19) and extended twice (18 April and again to 18 July) during which time Amnesty came into effect. 

I’m not sure how the 2nd June comes into this ???? 

 

I thought that under Emergency Decree and Visa Amnesty the 90 day reports were not necessary. Anyone ?

 

 

 

 

He arrived 2 March ? and was stamped in till 2 June. He got a 60 day extension until end of July which he forgot to tell me.

If your inverted commas means you are trying to imply this is me please note I have a Thai passport. (and a British one)

Walked past a ceramic coating shop in BKK. Pulling out was a 7 series white BMW. That car gleamed, very noticeable high gloss finish. Parked at the side of the road was a black 2 door Merc. Why would anyone paint a car with matte black rattle cans? Then I realized it had been wrapped.

A good friend of the family is currently on a NON O multi wife visit visa from Savanakhet valid till 21 Oct 20, permission to stay expired 2 June. He went to do a 90 day report at Rayong Imm.  He was told in no uncertain words that he must change to a 1 year marriage extension before 26 Sept. He was even taken to a private office for an interview. They also refused to accept his 90 day report as he has no valid permission to stay stamp!

Owners manual and workshop manual available on line at cost.

On 8/19/2020 at 7:43 PM, Sujo said:

On a side note, what happened with the members v phoenix issue a couple of years ago. I heard members where boycotting it and there was a court case.

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/678452-shocking-price-rises-at-phoenix-golf-club-pattaya/#comments

Beware it is around 30 pages.

On 8/18/2020 at 6:51 AM, scubascuba3 said:

You prefer Treasure Hill designed by a thicky vs Khao Kheow designed by Pete Dye and co, he did ok with Sawgrass. High handicappers like Treasure Hill as they get loads of shots wherever they go

So who was the "thicky" that designed Treasure Hills?

13 hours ago, Banana7 said:

Can you provide a link to the vehicles being auctioned? The above link just describes their business, no links/pages to the auction.

Click on "Auctions" logo then click on the calendar.