papillon

Here's a fun test.

Guess the gay bars.

I got two wrong. Should have know better. Of course some of these places, I've been to, so that's cheating!

http://www.slate.com...your-gaybardar/

Got 'em all except the fireplace.. Only been to G-A-Y but if you're in london there are better choices for those who like asians (kudos)

For anybody in London in the near future. Kudos, near Charing Cross, closed down a few weeks ago. It's now being refurbished, but it seems it will still be a bar. The advertised new name does not give a clue as to whether it will be gay or not. And yes, where are all those lovely Asian boys you could find in there most nights?

I echo the comments of dukkha, popshirt, Scott and Jingthing. Peter is working in miniature here, but his charting of his sometimes conflicting feelings and impulses is masterly. Such a poised honesty cannot be easy to achieve, and I am moved by it; it comes as a shock to one's own spirit.

It would not be possible to convey it to us, were it not for Peter's skill as a writer. His style is wonderfully flexible, moving without strain from 'monotonous Canadian accent, which defied intervention even as it sapped the will to live', to 'just looked mightily pissed off'', to the new insight, 'Alan glared at it, lips aquiver, until it had died a natural death'. Writing that keeps you alive and engaged. And an ending that does not recapitulate, but says it all.

In my opinion (not especially humble), Peter, even if he is not yet known to the world, is a distinguished writer.

NANCY

Sorry to be picky, sadman, but people could waste a lot of time driving around the south of France looking for Nancy. It's very much in the north of France - departmental capital of Meurthe-et-Moselle, just south of Metz and level with Strasbourg. Local pride is very strong, and you have to be as careful there as you do, say, in Yorkshire or Texas!

As a visitor to Thailand, not a resident, I have always assumed that one of the uses of the wai was to say 'thank you'. I certainly find a broad smile and a wai an adequate replacement for the verbalisation that is customary with westerners. The politeness of not opening a present in the presence of the giver avoids the sometimes clumsy effusiveness we are often forced into or feel is appropriate in the West; and it's obvious Thais don't feel they have to mention the gift the next time you meet them. However, I have found that the thanks is often expressed in action. A motorcycle helmet I paid for as a gift to a friend's bf was worn with pride and a smile when I arrived in Thailand; one of the shirts I brought him from the UK was worn the first night we went out to dinner together; a cash farewell gift, handed to him in an envelope, was acknowleged, as I left the condo building, with an appearance on the balcony, a ravishing smile, and his totally personal way of waving goodbye. (Just to prove how much the gift was appreciated, my friend told me his bf waited a tense but seemly half-hour before rushing to Tukcom to turn it into the mobile phone that everyone had to have that week.) Personally, I consider myself fully thanked with a smile, a wai, and behaviour that expresses, without words, that the gift has been received gratefully and is being enjoyed.

cooL guY corY, the book you are referring to is:

Thai for Gay Tourists - A Language Guide to the Gay Culture of Thailand

By Saksit Pakdeesiam

Publishers:Paiboom Publishing (Offices in Berkeley, California, and Bangkok)

ISNB 1-887521-11-9

It's largely a dictionary, but with interspersed articles of poor quality. Also, it is not quite as gay-oriented as it sounds, and I can see no reason why it should not be useful to an ex-pat as well as a tourist. You are right to say that it covers swear words as well as sexual words, and it has lists of words associated with heterosexual sex and a section of the softest, sweet pillow talk. It gives the word in Thai script, a transliteration and a translation, and makes some attempt to distinguish the offensiveness or not of the word.

I am NOT recommending this book, because I do not know enough Thai to judge whether it is correct, accurate or really helpful (for what?!!). Also, it is not a book for the prudish or fastidious!

A few weeks ago I googled 'ting-tong' and followed up a lead to www.urbandictionary.com

I was mystified by the definition given - 'a white man with dreadlocks who thinks he's of Thai origin'. It seemed so improbable! Having read this thread, I now appreciate the rather curt irony intended by whoever placed this definition in the dictionary.

I've just reread my post, but too late to correct those awful 'it's' to 'its'. Apologies to those who are as sensitive about these matters as I am myself!

There's a paperback book called 'Thai for Gay Tourists' by Saksit Pakdeesiam, published by Paiboon Publishing, which has addresses in Berkeley, California, and Bangkok. I bought my copy in London, but I think it is available in Bangkok. This has short articles on a variety of subjects (not very impressive), but it is mainly a dictionary of words used by Thais and Thai gays in connection with sex. It gives the English, a transliteration and the Thai word or expression (in Thai script) for almost any sexual and physical expression and a lot of gay slang. It tries to distinguish between the various levels of vulgarity or offensiveness of the Thai words. Two warnings: it is VERY explicit, so not for the faint-hearted or very fastidious; I am not recommending it's accuracy or correctness. I have seen doubts about it's accuracy expressed on another forum. Another point: it seems to have the Thai for all sorts of things that I'm pretty sure only a handful of Thais would ever consider doing!

Dumpster, sorry you had to get so picketty about my attempt to be a bit celebratory and over-the-top. The context is the whole of my post, in which I was trying to convey my attitude to sexual activity. The original poster asked for personal perspectives. Of course we have bad moments and experiences (yes, yes, I know I said 'every', but see above), but those I can usually cope with, with a bit of will. True, I don't find it difficult to say that to want sex is a joyous feeling - but that's because I'm reporting my own experience, as I stated at the end of the post; to want sex puts a bit of spring in my step, and to say not a lot of thought went into the statement is merely curmudgeonly. It never occurred to me that it would be YOUR experience or way of seeing things, or anyone else's. Clearly, you didn't like reading what I wrote, but I've no doubt you will recover from it and push along the path of life guided by your own insights. In fact, it's bloody certain, isn't it?!

I, too, welcome Rikker's explanation, but my findings on 'd' and 'dt' (sorry I don't have Thai characters) don't agree with Wasabi's explanation. Simply, my tongue is not between my teeth for an English 't' - or, it seems for any other consonant sound - that is, I don't lisp! After experimenting for half an hour I find myself hard-pushed to say how I produce the difference between 'd' and 't'. I seems, however, that the tongue is in very much the same position behind the teeth, but the 'd' comes more from the throat (particularly for an initial 'd') and the 't' is more an expulsion of air from the front of the mouth.

Perhaps this needs taking with a pinch of salt. I have a very long bridge row of teeth in the front of my upper jaw. Perhaps the dentist placed them at an angle that differs rather from what Nature originally gave me! In fact, I would say that for both letters the tip of my tongue is not against the back of my teeth, but on the meeting point of the palate and the teeth. Anyway, I can still eat and speak!

Yes, well,I spoilt the classiness a bit with 'Bhuddist', didn't I? Let's say it was a bit late at night.

So - BUDDHIST.

It's a very interesting question, but there must be thousands of different viewpoints on the matter(based on personal experience) and it doesn't seem to me likely that one person's answer can be found in the answer of someone else.

Take me for example. I am not young. I am well-read and have been thinking about sexual matters and how to deal with them since I first discovered myself. Most of what other people have to say never seems to have applied to me. What's all this about sex and sex-drive as suffering? I ask myself. (Shall we say I'm not a natural Bhuddist?) I've always loved every, every moment of it. To want sex is a joyous feeling, energising, revitalising. I still need the various forms of sexual satisfaction as much as I did xxxxx years ago - I ain't spilling no beans! Of course, I came across the idea of re-directing sexual energy (sublimation, Freud would have called it, I suppose) in my mid-teens, but I've never been able to make anything of the strategy for myself - which is not to deny the fact that millions prove by their lives that it can work. I decided early on that when I want to play some music, read a book, climb a mountain, have a meal with friends, write about something that I care about, then THAT is what I want to do. (You can see I never proposed to myself to go into a monastery!) When I want sex (which has been, and still is, very often!) there is no point in climbing a mountain or writing my heart out. I still want sex. I find it a bit of a puzzle that sex is, commonly, the only part of themselves that people ever want to sublimate. Why not sublimate mountain climbing? (I have a suspicion it's because, underneath it all, even today, sex is a bad thing, whereas mountain climbing is OK.)

I find the idea that sexual urges should be put aside as not part of you at your best or most useful, extremely unnatural; and to be waiting, hoping for them to die out, is a bit sad. The moralists are no doubt right when they tell us that to give in completely to any one of the so-called sensual pleasures (who can say the mind is not involved?) to the exclusion of everything else is to be less than what we are humanly capable of. But I can go on for hours like this.... it probably won't equate with the reader's experience - and why should it?

The point is: my answer can't be your answer - which doesn't mean that discussing the matter can't be helpful, useful and fun!

Ben, thank you for your very generous-spirited public service. I've got it in the can now, and it looks as if a number of others have as well! Much appreciated.

When this thread started I had a look at the site and saw a use for it myself, but did not print it immediately because I was short of paper. Recently I have several times gone back to it, but clicking the URL always gets me 'This page cannot be displayed'.

Anybody got any ideas why? Thank you.

I think the main problem with Pro Language (and, perhaps, other schools of this type) is that they don't have a permanent teaching staff. They seem to call in teachers from a list of contacts when there are pupils available. This makes getting a good teacher a very hit-and-miss matter.

As it happened, my own experience of Pro Language when I spent 3 months in Bangkok recently was near perfect. Having taken some Thai lessons in the UK, I had an agenda. I arrived fed up to the teeth with not learning Thai, because I was having to use all my ingenuity juggling half a dozen different romanisation systems. I saw that Pro Language was offering yet another system, so I said quite bluntly that the job they had to do was to get me reading and pronouncing Thai script in 3 months. Oh dear, we usually don't get on to reading and writing until the end of the third conversation course! I intended to take one-to-one lessons and made it clear they would not get my money unless they provided the service I wanted. That concentrated their minds wonderfully! It turned out, in fact, that they have a pretty good Reading and Writing course book, and I followed this simultaneously with a couple of the Conversation course books - concentrating on the Reading and Writing.

I was so lucky in my teacher, a lovely person I could really relate to and who understood what I was up to. Although she had a degree in English, she had never been well enough off to visit an English-speaking country; so her vocabulary and grammar were good, but her pronunciation was sometimes impenetrable. Once we got to know each other (which means, among other things, once she got to understand my ironic English sense of humour!), she was only too happy to make use of the fact that I am a linguist by profession and over the years have taught English as a foreign language in various situations - though not in SE Asia. Learning became a two-way process, with lots of laughter and leg-pulling - at times I became her comically stern teacher - and, for the record, the famous Thai problem of loss of face never came into it. My triumph was to get her to pronounce correctly, over what I think she felt was a rough week, 'wasps' and 'wisps'! (I tested her daily!) In return she was endlessly patient about my problems of memorising and pronunciation. She did a most excellent job.

Of course, we are still in touch, but one of the things she indicated before I left was that it was not certain she would be at Pro Language when I return to Bangkok next year, because she was looking for a full-time appointment somewhere. In other words, she was eeking out an existence on work that 'turned up'.

Having said which, I can see no way, given the nature of PL, that one could guarantee a learning experience there as good as mine. You pays your money and you takes your chance!