Dalewhatdale

15 hours ago, Catoni said:

Science is never done by “consensus”.  If it’s consensus, it’s not science.  If it’s science, it’s not consensus. 
The late Michael Crichton, MD, author, film producer, put it this way:
“I want to pause here and talk about this notion of consensus, and the rise of what has been called consensus science. I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you’re being had.

“Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.

“There is no such thing as consensus science. If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus. Period.

 

Quote: “Consensus: “The process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values, and policies in search of something in which no one believes, but to which no one objects; the process of avoiding the very issues that have to be solved, merely because you cannot get agreement on the way ahead. What great cause would have been fought and won under the banner: ‘I stand for consensus?”

- Lady Margaret Thatcher, former Prime Minister of England

 

“A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively what no one believes individually.”

- Abba Eban

Lol, you're clearly not a trained scientist. As for those quotes, Ebban wasn't a scientist, and while Thatcher and Crichton both had scientific or medical degrees, they'd clearly forgotten a lot about it  by the time the said/wrote such things.

Particularly Thatcher, who was an extremely bigoted, right-wing politician and as such hated the word "consensus" based on its ideological charge alone. And Chrichton enjoyed being a contrarian on issues like climate change and others for the sake of it, or the additional fame it broguht him; not surprisingly as that's why the vast majority of contrarians do what they do. Of course Crichton despised consensus. He had no idea of its role in scientific research, and that ignorance served his purposes.

But without consensus based on solid evidence (goes without saying), there's just no science. I'm not talking about lay people debating things and agreeing on stuff out of thin air or based on ideology or personal preference, but of experts in a field accepting a number of assumptions as valid and a body of evidence as well established, thus providing a solid foundation to build on (i.e. do further research).

1 hour ago, Catoni said:

The doctors and trained scientists don’t even agree with each other, and to top it off they kept changing their minds ever since this thing escaped from the lab. 
   Mask, no mask, mask indoors but not outdoors, mask outdoors, stay home, get the shot you won’t get the virus.
       Get one shot…get two shots.   Oh..sorry now you need a booster…… sorry again two boosters…..three.. four…..   oh sorry… now a booster every nine months for the rest of your life.    Double mask is best…. N-95 mask is best…and don’t forget your face shield on top of it. 
    Do you so soon forget the WHO tweet on January 14, 2020, the World Health Organization (doctors and scientists) tweeted that there was “no clear evidence” that the Covid coronavirus could spread between humans.
Do you forget that already?  Did you believe the doctors and scientists then?  
  And they told us the vaccine is the key to going back to a normal life.   Do you forget? 
Well, a normal life means I don’t wear a mask anymore. But please feel free to continue to mask up for the rest of your life if you wish. 
  

Wait, you wrote "That's science" a few times on a previous post trying to dispute the efficacy of masks, but now that you've been proven wrong, you change your tune to "but scientists don't even agree with each other". Which is it?

I have news for you, there has never been, is or will be anything on which 100% of scientists agree. There are many reasons for that, but I won't go into them. What there is, and that's how science operates most of the time is a consensus of experts, meaning that the vast majority of scientists working on a field agree that there is enough evidence to support what is accepted as the prevailing view. We're talking a level of agreement of 85-90% or even higher among the experts working in that particular field. The people who know the issue inside out and far better than anybody else in the world. Something like what's been going on the issue of global warming, except that question is even more muddled due to the massive economic interests of companies and people who'd rather destroy our planet than make less profit.

Why would anyone choose to believe the small minority of outliers who don't support the prevailing consensus without providing solid evidence to do so, I'll never understand. Particularly when this small minority is populated to a high degree (and this pandemic has been no exception) with researchers who are NOT experts in the specific field being discussed (being a great motorbike pilot doesn't make you an expert in F1 racing), as well as with second-rate academicians who haven't made a mark with their work and jump at the first chance of gaining notoriety by being a contrarian based on no solid evidence.

If you choose to believe what those people say just because it's more convenient for your lifestyle or fits with your own, totally unbased and non-scientific beliefs, that's your choice. I regret it as a fellow member of society, but that's how it is. Just don't say "that's science" when it's not.

Finally, think about it. I don't know what your line of work is/was, nor how complex it is or how much training and experience it takes to become competent in it. But if you'd been working in some capacity for decades, and you read complete aficionados flippantly dismiss your expert opinions on the very subject you know better than most, you'd most likely think they were uninformed fools. Well...

On 7/6/2022 at 4:01 AM, Catoni said:

As if the masks actually work. Studies now around the world show that they stop less than 30% of the virus...

 

...You need at MINIMUM..an N-95 filtering respirator with no valve, to make any meaningful difference .  That’s science. 

 

   

Nonsense. That's what you call science. As mentioned in this academic review written by actual scientists:

"A simple mask cut from a t-shirt achieved a fit score of 67, offering substantial protection from the challenge aerosol and showing good fit with minimal leakage."

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014564118

There's more:

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0264389

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-01814-3

Masks DO work in the community setting by reducing transmission, and even a basic one is far better than no mask.

On 7/5/2022 at 12:25 PM, 86Tiger said:

The entire world is over this.

 

But not LOS.

The 'entire world' is not. At all.

There are still countries where masks are mandatory on public transportation, and for good reason. It's insane how many people are still diying from COVID or being left with serious long-term effects after recovering from infection. Pretending it isn't happening won't make things better.

As always since this thing started (although you'd think some people would have learnt something), the thread is full of comments by armchair know-it-alls who believe they know better than trained doctor and scientists. Seriously, what a joke.

What on earth are those zig-zag lines for?

I imagine they signal the proximity of a zebra crossing, but as a non-British driver (I supposed that's where they copied from) I find them ugly (not important) and distracting (important) as hell! They should've saved money on paint and kept it simple, for all the good this'll do.

On 9/14/2021 at 10:01 AM, Tanomazu said:

Actually Spain can be a lot hotter than Thailand, 40 degrees Celsius and more are regular occurrences. 

 

You don't have options close by Bangkok airport? A lot more than you have in Spain, even Madrid is not a major travel hub airport.

 

North Africa is an absolute dunghole, excepting a few places in Morocco. Who wants to go there?

 

Pollution, dirt, grime and graffiti are a major problem in big Spanish cities:

 

"Clogged streets and idling cars are the primary drivers of poor air quality in Madrid, road traffic alone can cause up to 90% of NO₂ concentrations in the city centre.¹ Madrid also struggles with PM2.5 concentrations that have exceeded World Health Organisation (WHO) targets. While the WHO recommends an average annual PM2.5 target of 10 µg/m³ or less, the average air quality in Madrid exceeded this target during three months in 2019.

 

More broadly, Spain as a country has been singled out by the European Commission for repeated non-compliance with regulations.⁷ Limit values on ambient air quality are set by EU legislation for particulate matter (PM), sulphur dioxide (SO₂) and NO₂."

 

https://www.iqair.com/spain/madrid

 

In the world pollution rankings Madrid is actually ranked ahead of any Thai city:

 

https://www.iqair.com/world-air-quality-ranking

You're joking. Madrid is totally a major travel hub airport (barely 4 million fewer passengers than Swampy in 2019, the latest year with normal traffic), only it doesn't cover the destinations you like. If you want to travel to the Caribbean, Mexico, Central or South America (and of course Europe), Madrid is your airport.

While it's true that central Madrid has a slight problem with air quality, that is by EU standards, which are very stringent. That air quality ranking you linked to is a bit suspect, to say the least. Chiang Mai is listed below Madrid, but I can assure you Madrid never gets anywhere near the ridiculously high levels of dangerous particles Chiang Mai gets every year for 3 months during burning season. Not even remotely close.

On 9/16/2021 at 8:36 AM, Tanomazu said:

Really.
 

"The Policia Nacional has taken down an international pickpocketing gang which preyed on tourists in Mallorca.

 

A total of 34 members, all of Romanian nationality, were arrested during multiple raids across the island yesterday."

 

https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2020/08/12/police-arrest-34-members-of-romanian-pickpocketing-gang-who-preyed-on-tourists-in-spains-mallorca/

 

Crime gangs with 34 members, all Romanian, not a problem. Okay. That's probably why the police arrested them then, because they're not a problem?

 

"Palma caught up in Romania mafia ring

 

SPANISH police have arrested a mafia ring of nearly 300 Romanians, two being picked up in Palma, in one of their biggest operations against foreign criminals. The network was organised by one leader, known as Iorgu I or Talanu, with several lieutenants, and operated in eight of Spain's 17 regions, the Interior Ministry said yesterday. “The crimes for which these mafia groups are accused include violent robbery, forgery and fraudulent use of credit cards, drug trafficking, falsifying documents, illegal possession of weapons, prostitution and offences against worker rights,” Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso told a news conference."

 

https://www.majorcadailybulletin.com/news/local/2013/03/23/13582/palma-caught-romania-mafia-ring.html

 

So organized Romanian crime gangs of THREE HUNDRED Romanians engaging in violent robbery not a problem then. Okay. That'll be why the Spanish police conducted a nationwide operation to arrest them then, because they're not a problem.

 

"A united nations of crime’: how Marbella became a magnet for gangsters"

 

The new international crime organisations have made Marbella their centre of operations. And as violence rises, the police lag far behind.

 

“The Costa del Sol is a kind of hub, or ‘coworking’ space, where almost every major criminal group in the world has some sort of presence,” a senior National police agent investigating organised crime told us.

 

The rise in lethal violence is worrying the region’s security forces. “

 

Last August was an especially bad month: “Eastern European gangs were breaking into homes all the time,” Álvarez-Ossorio said. “There were robberies and assaults happening constantly. We call it ‘black August’, and I think it was really a turning point.”

 

A resident of an upmarket suburb in Marbella, who asked not to be identified by name, said she’s afraid to leave anything of value in her home. “I wear a lot of bracelets,” the woman said, showing off each one and noting its value, each in the tens of thousands of euros. “And when I go running, I cover them up with a wrist band. I don’t leave them in the house.” Asked if she ever thinks about moving, she said: “Yes. In fact, I’m sure that’s what I’ll end up doing.”

 

The Costa del Sol is home to more than 100 different criminal organisations. They range from extremely powerful, tightly structured mafias, like the Serbian, Morrocan and Dutch groups, to gangs of small-time burglars.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/may/20/a-united-nations-of-how-marbella-became-a-magnet-for-gangsters

 

It's so bad in Spain even the mafiosi themselves are scared. Of other mafiosi.

 

More than 100 crimininal organisations operating in Spain not a problem. Okay. Robberies and assaults happening constantly not a problem. Okay. A rise in lethal violence that is worrying even the region’s security forces, but not a problem. Okay. So many crime gangs that even the criminals themselves are scared, but not a problem. Okay. Residents wearing their jewellery to avoid it getting stolen in a break-in in their home and saying they will move away. But not a problem. Okay. Just my "worldview". Okay, genius.

 

Well, clearly you know Spain so well. And btw, Gamberros, youth hooligans, are a problem in Spain due to the 20% plus unemployment, they don't just stay in a neighbourhood, they have scooters and cars and go shopping where you do.

 

And yes, housing qaulity is a lot poorer in Spain than in Thailand, where the standard of housing in CM, BK, and Ko Samui is considerably higher than in most Spanish cities. I know, cause I lived in both.

 

Canary Islands? Lol, yes, winters are great there. Ideal if you like black ash beaches and being bored out of your mind.

 

And cultural life in Spain has been severely limited by animal rights fanatics and left wing extremists, one of the crowns in the jewel of Spanish culture, Tauromaquia, is now barely hanging on by a thread due to the prohibitions on bullfighting in many Spanish cities. As someone who grew up learning horse riding from a Rejeoneador I can tell you that it is a sad time for Spanish culture. Sure, Spain has better museums and opera than Thailand, but it does not have Buddhist monasteries, a Lantern festival, ancient Thai ruins etc.

 

Madrid airport is very limited, all Spaniards know this. Nobody wants to fly to Caracas, everyone wants to fly to Bangkok or Tokyo. But they often have to go to Frankfurt to fly there, because Iberia, the Spanish airline, is very poor and limited in its offering, and even if they offer flights they are wildly overpriced compared to what's on offer in Frankfurt.

 

Outside of Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia, in the smaller cities, btw Spain offers far less in dining options than Chiang Mai, Bangkok or Ko Samui. It's just a fact. It's mostly Spanish, which is great of course, but if you want to try a range of other cuisines, bad luck.

 

Choice of Shopping in Spain is better? Far from it. In Thailand you don't just get a range of malls Spain can only dream of, you also have Asia's largest market, Chatuchak (and it will be back), where you don't just get designer clothes, but unique items, where in fact the designers from Gucci go to be inspired. Shopping in Thailand is better.

 

And the weather in Thailand is better, btw, because in winter it is TEN degrees warmer than in most of Spain and a winter in Palma, Barcelona, Madrid or Valencia will see your furniture moulding green from the humidity which the Winter causes. It's horrible. I lived it for 8 years.

Lol, really. Crime is most definitely not a big concern in Spain. You can cherry-pick all the stats you want and distort them to your liking. It won't change reality.

As for "housing quality is a lot poorer in Spain than in Thailand, where the standard of housing in CM, BK, and Ko Samui is considerably higher than in most Spanish cities. I know, cause I lived in both." Sorry, that's bs. I have lived in both too and what you're saying is ridiculous. Really. What you probably mean is that you can get more bang for your buck in Thailand, but that's all.

Then "winter in Palma, Barcelona, Madrid or Valencia will see your furniture moulding green from the humidity which the Winter causes. It's horrible. I lived it for 8 years."

Lol, no, you haven't. Madrid is dry as f*cuk all year round, as anyone who's actually lived there will tell you.

I could go on, but you're clearly clueless, so what's the point?

The UK is on the list??? ????

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/21/britain-covid-numbers-plan-b-data

On 9/14/2021 at 10:39 AM, Tanomazu said:

 

 

Quote

I said there were Romanian and African crime gangs operating in Spain. That is neither racist, as it clearly refers to both white and black people, nor is it inaccurate, it is very much the case, so spare me your faux woke hysteria.

No you didn't. You said "the cities are overrun with crime, Romanians, Africans.", implying a direct link between all crime and people from those origins. Now you drop your pretence and directly talk about Romanian and African gangs, making them sound like a massive problem that should make anyone think twice about moving to Spain. And they are not, except maybe in your worldview. What you said is doubly racist because I have no doubt in my mind that you consider Romanians second-rate whites, probably like Spaniards.

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The Gamberros, or youngster hooligans, are a problem in every major Spanish city, they commit petty crime and vandalise the city. Often loudmouthed and fuelled with alcohol or stronger drugs, they significantly reduce quality of life in Spain. Their numbers are bigger than elsewhere because of the massive unemployment in Spain.

No they are not. And again, not a problem, minor or major, an expat would face. There are dicy neighborhoods, but these are avoided by locals as well, just like in most Western cities.

Quote

 

Not at all. Ask anyone who's ever lived in the Balearic Islands, clammy and unpleasant winters are the norm. Made much worse by the fact that the quality of housing is exceptionally poor in Spain, poorer than Thailand in fact.  The houses are not built for the clammy winters and there is no airconditioning in most places for the hot summers.

 

I prefer my winters not cold at all. The 21.5 degrees in Chiang Mai are just about Okay. Average mean temperature in January in Palma de Mallorca is a whopping ten degrees less at 11 degrees. On climate Thailand wins hands down.

 

Housing poorer than in Thailand? LOL, sure. As for winters, what about the Canary Islands? You made a blanket statement about "winters in Spain" which simply was wrong. I gave you two regions where they are neither clammy nor unpleasant.

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Cultural life in Thailand is far less limited than cultural life in Spain, where animal rights lunatics have succeeded not just in banning bullfights in many cities, but also limited the use of animals in popular fiestas.

Again, you must be joking. ISaying that cultural life in Spain is limited because bullfighting is falling out of favour (thankfully) actually shows how limited your concept of cultural life is. Spain has a far better cultural scene than Thailand by a mile. It may not be your speed, but that is just the truth.

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Of course driving in Spain is much better than in Thailand, it is better literally everywhere else in the world, as Thais are the worst and most inconsiderate drivers this side of Africa, however, given that flights are very cheap in Thailand you're better off flying to places in Thailand anyway. That's another advantage of Thailand, Bangkok is a major travel hub in Southeast Asia, Madrid is not a major travel hub in Europe. Spanish people who want to fly to Thailand or Japan often have to go via Germany. It's a terrible inconvenience for residents in Spain.

Madrid-Barajas is the 7th busiest airport in Europe, and has great connections with most of the continent. If you want to go to Asia, sure, it's not your best bet, but that's because the Madrid airport is more focused in Central and South America, as it should be for historical, cultural and economic reasons. Barcelona’s El Prat is not far behind and has plenty of connections with Europe too.

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But you're right, Spain is not for me. Principally because it lacks the dining,

Nope.

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massage

Yes.

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and shopping options which Thailand offers,

Only in that there are few malls. Choice, and quality is generally far better here.

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because I prefer Thai culture to Spanish culture (and I like Spanish culture), because the weather is better in Thailand, and because Thailand is just more interesting than Spain.

The weather is better if you like heat and humidity all year long, granted.

And you got it right the first time. You prefer it. But your blanket statements and generalizations don't make it so.

7 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

I spent 8 years living in Spain, and was there last in 2014. Just had a visitor from Spain. If you look at the crime index I link below you will see that crime in Barcelona, Spain is worse than in Prague, Berlin, Sydney, with only New York, London and New Delhi with higher crime.

 

However, I actually expected it to be much worse, and I take your point that violent crime is not disproportionately high. It's just I've had countless reports of people having had their wallets stolen, and a close relative was a victim of organised burglary by an East European gang operating in Spain. The high unemployment in Spain also results in a highly degraded urban environment with so-called "Gamberros" perpetrating hooligan and petty crime, graffiti is an issue. That's from my own experience.

 

It's not racist to say that Romanian and African crime gangs operate in Spain, they do, and as the statement makes clear it's both whites and blacks, I fail to see how it's racist. I know woke accusations are the fashion, but watch your tone when you interact with me.

 

I would not want to live in the country side in Spain. The Spanish people are fanstastic, I have travelled all over Spain from the very north in Asturias to Madrid and the Baleriac Islands. I've lived there almost a decade. I know the area and people well. However, there are almost no facilities in the isolated rural areas in Spain. Living costs are actually high. Unemployment is high, crime in the sense of theft, graffiti and hooligan crime, if not violent crime or murder, is a problem. The winters are clammy and unpleasant. I see no reason to trade Thailand for Spain, and I think Spain is a long way away from Thailand in terms of culinary options, massage quality, shopping and the climate in Thailand is better, as winters are not clammy. Thailand is a lot better than Spain for an expat who likes a more interesting life. Spain is a bit too boring.

 

 

https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Spain&city1=Barcelona&country2=Germany&city2=Berlin

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"...so watch your tone when you interact with me"

Lol, who do you think you are?

You dont get to make openly racist statements and not get called out for it. Sorry if it comes across as "woke" or disrespectful towards your excellency.

Then you say you know "the area" (which one?) and the people very well, but a lot (in fact, most) of what you say confirms you don't know Spain that well. You may know Barcelona well, but you don't get to say "Spanish cities are overrun with crime" just from the figures in Barcelona. Barcelona does have a petty theft problem, but believe or not, there are many other cities in Spain besides Barceona. And Barcelona isn't even much worse than Berlin, as per your own chart.

Also, you're the first person I ever heard calling graffiti a crime, especially one that would make an expat decide against moving to a country. I see it as an annoyance and nothing more.

As for the "hooligans", again you may be talking about Barcelona, cause it's definitely not a major problem elsewhere, or at least not a problem the average expat would encounter in their daily life. I'll take grafitti before non-existing, or leg-breaking, riddled-with-holes and other obstacles sidewalks any day.

Then you go on:

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"The winters are clammy and unpleasant."

Again, you're clearly talking about Barcelona; go elsewhere like parts of Southern Spain or the isles, and you can even get year-round beautiful, mild, sunny weather. You prefer your winters cold and dry? Go to the central area of the country.

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"Unemployment is high"

So what? What do you care as a retired expat? Specially since this doesn't translate to significantly higher crime (petty theft or worse) than in even Berlin, as per your chart (what's the Crime Index, 42 in Berlin vs 47 in Barcelona? That's nothing).

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"I think Spain is a long way away from Thailand in terms of culinary options, massage quality, shopping and the climate in Thailand is better, as winters are not clammy. "

These are all mostly subjective. I don't think Spain is a long way away from Thailand in culinary options at all, and I love Thai food and the Bangkok restaurant scene is really impressive in terms of international options. Massage? Sure. Shopping? No way, unles you're into big honking shopping malls. Not a lot of those in Spain, and most people don't want them anyway. As for the climate, again, it's personal. In most of Spain you get four seasons, in some parts with reasonably mild winters and summers. You prefer the year-round crushing heat and humidity in Thailand, sprinkled with dangerous-to-breath air during burning season in many areas? By all means. Just don't make it sound like a no-brainer, cause it's far from it.

Then you conclude with:

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"Thailand is a lot better than Spain for an expat who likes a more interesting life. Spain is a bit too boring."

Which, again, it's down to personal taste. Cultural life in Thailand is pretty limited, road trips around the country are inherently life-threatening due to poor driving discipline and education, and lack of enforcement of road rules, etc. it's hard to run or play sports outdoors due to lack of facilities and the heat and humidity, I could go on.

If by "a more interesting life", you mean bars filled with poor young women waiting for older expats and their money, then yes, Spain is not for you.

On 2/3/2021 at 6:59 PM, ChoakMyDee said:

 

It's not a vaccine. They shouldn't be calling it one.

It's totally a vaccine. I don't know where you get the idea from that it's not.

Quote

Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm

Tourism is way, way down. What could we do? I know. Let's make it increasingly, and stupefyingly harder for tourists to visit.

If that doesn't fix the rpblem, I dont know what will.

6 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

   ...

   Trip Advisor should warn people not to make false reviews 

They do. Every single time you post a review.

Just now, Bluedan said:

pretty permanent for the 2 local unemployed and destitute people who killed themselves last week 

Sure. When this is over, let's count how many people killed themselves in dispair, and how many more died from COVID, and also estimate how many did most likely NOT die because lockdown measures were adopted. That's the thing in epidemiology: measures seem extreme until you don't take them and more people die, but it's too late then.

BTW, I did get my HIV numbers wrong, but I haven't halved my assesment to the most serious pandemic in 50 years. I said it might be if no more people died in the current pandemic, but that is highly unlikely by the looks of it.

5 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

HIV has killed 75 million who cares what they call it

at least you have now halved your assessment of the worst pandemic only in 50 years now.... thanks for the concession 

You assume smugness on my part but the only smugness I see is from you and your haughty tone

I am simply stating facts and asking questions

yes I also don't know what happened before lockdown could be the climate or some kind of immunity 

but I know what happened after..... a shattered economy suicide up 22 % domestic violence and crime are up. There are studies that show a significant uptick in deaths and shorter lives following economic ruin. It isn't economy v lives its lives v lives 

yes its good I'm not in charge better if you were in charge we would be locked down forever safe poor and miserable

Lockdown and poverty don't have to be permanent. Death, on the other hand... Again, take your pick.

That false dilemma disappears the moment someone asks you if you'd be ok to die yourself (or members of your family) to keep the economy running. Of  course you wouldn't. But as long as it's others who die...

23 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

 

Apart from New York which has a poor health system can you name any place that has been overwhelmed?

 

 

 

Forgot to address this. Overwhelmed, or close to it (as shown by overstreched capacity of the system, and number of deaths and death rate), apart from NYC?

Take your pick: Lombardy (Italy), Madrid and other regions in Spain, Ile de France (Paris) and other regions in France, Belgium, England and Wales, and so on and so forth.

16 minutes ago, Bluedan said:

no sir you are clueless and arrogant

 

There have been other far worse pandemics in the past century

ever heard of HIV malaria and others

Just in the case of Flu the Hong Kong Flu in 1968 killed anywhere between 1 and 4 million when the world population was half what it is now and there was no lockdown then

 

The fact that this virus is new or different doesn’t mean we should not compare reactions by government in other public health issues.

 

You didn't answer the question regarding what happened in the 3 months before lockdown because you have no answer and probably no comprehension of the question itself. You would argue real hundreds of thousands of hospital admissions and thousands of deaths that happen in a very short period of time yet it didn’t happen between January and March. Also you have no comment about Sweden where it still hasn’t happened in such magnitude despite not locking down.

 

Apart from New York which has a poor health system can you name any place that has been overwhelmed?

 

The fatal diseases like cancer you have referred to have been deferred due to the panic and reluctance to that and admit such patients so in effect you are supporting my argument the reaction or over reaction is causing mass collateral damage. Thats apart from suicides and poverty which will translate to many more deaths over time

 

The car accident analogy relates to government response to loss of lives. I cant explain it any simpler you may need some help with this. Its about prevention of death. The point I and others here are making isn’t about hospital beds or overwhelming the health system its about government reaction to reduce deaths. Originally they said flatten the curve welts felt now in most places ( cases i.e. positive PCR tests don't equate to serious illness let alone ICU beds or death) For one issue COVID the most draconian action is taken and for the other Carnage on the roads no action is taken. Death by pathogen or by vehicle is still death. Who are you to decide we can only make the comparison with respect to hospital bed capacity.

 

 

Again, you're doubling down on the whataboutism. Clueless.

At any rate, malaria is endemic, not pandemic, and HIV is not considered a pandemic by WHO, and the number of deaths is lower than for COVID adn spread over a much longer period.

As for the 1968 pandemics, the estimated number of deaths worldwide was 1 million (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html). We're already at that point with this one (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?), and it's very far from over yet.

Even if it magically petered out and the number of deaths stayed around the million mark, that would make it the most serious pandemic in almost half a century. But you seem to think the world has overreacted. Well, it's a good thing you're not in charge of much in the current situation then.

You sound very smug about your "what happened in the 3 months before lockdown", question. And you're right, I don't know. Neither do you. What we both know (but you somehow fail to comprehend) is what's happened after, and elsewhere. Countries, if stupid, are free to ignore that at their own risk.

22 hours ago, Bluedan said:

Yes seriously

and others of us us tired of the nonsense you are spouting because you fail to understand the connection. I will try to spell it out in clear English and perhaps you will get it. The comparison relates to the unprecedeted reaction to a public health issue. The other diseases and road accidents are public health issues to which there is often little or no reaction by authorities to mitigate. No one is saying they are all the same...of course they are not but the issue is what government intervention exists in relation to these other large health issues. For example in Thailand nothing absolutely nothing is done to stop the road deaths which per day equal the total coronavirus death toll. But you dismiss this as irrelevant. The health system here and other have not been brought to their knees, far from it...yes some have e.g. New York and theres plenty of evidence that was due to defunding and neglect. You can claim thats because of the lockdown in which case you may wish to explain what happened for the 2 or 3 months when the virus was here before the lockdown and other measures were implemented. 

Your reply is not only clueless but proud of it.

What on earth are you talking about, "unprecedented reaction"? Of course this deserves to get an "unprecedented reaction". It's by far the most serious pandemic the world has seen in 100 years.

I'm talking about public health response, and the very real hundreds of thousands of hospital admissions and thousands of deaths that happen in a very short period of time if the virus takes a foothold in a region and overwhelms the healthcare system. I put it in bold so that perhaps you will get it.

And it's not just deaths directly related to SARS-CoV-2 infection, it's also those not counted as such due to lack of diagnostic capability at the peak of the wave, as well as many thousands indirectly related to it (look up the excess deaths during the 1st wave in spring in several European countries), due to that fact that healthcare systems get overwhelmed and thousands of crucial consultations and diagnostic procedures for other potentially fatal diseases like cancer get delayed for weeks if not months.

Again, none of that happens with road deaths, so to even bring it into this discussion is absolutely pointless. Even if it were relevant, which it just isn't, not even remotely, whataboutism never solved any problem, and never will. It's just an easy way out of a discussion.

The fact that it hasn't happened in Thailand, or anywhere, shouldn't be a reason for complacency, quite the opposite. There's a lot we still don't understand about this virus and how and why it has hit so much harder in some places than others, but one thing's for sure: if you get overconfident, your chances of getting overrun by this mother increase exponentially.