Vindie

I want to get one, but there is a lot of confusing information in the shops here in the US (I visiting on holiday). The Nook people tell me I can't use it in Thailand. The Kindle people say I will incur all kinds of fees. I don't think these people know what they're talking about, but I don't want to get burned. If there is anybody in Thailand who has any of these I'd like to hear some updated info. I'm mostly just concerned with getting access to books within LOS since the salespeople say I won't be able to. I don't care about wireless or 3G because I'm happy to connect to my laptop and pull the books off. Can I do that reasonably easily? I really want to get one of these if they can be useful. Right now I'm leaning towards the Nook, with Kindle a close second.

I am in the US at the moment and have just bought a Wii to take back to Thailand. As regards power supplies it is 110V but there are many 3rd party power supplies (eg Nyko) for the Wii that are 110-240V. The console is region locked but games are available through Amazon and from what I have read unlocking the Wii is not particularly difficult.

So the external AC adapter (RVL-002?) that comes with the Wii is 110V/60 Hz only? It does seem like there are a lot of 100-240/50-60 replacement units available. I think a lot of the modded Wii's available here in Thailand are sourced in the U.S.

What are the advantages of buying in the U.S.? Price? Other?

The advantage is really the price... though I haven't priced consoles in Thailand for more than a year. Right now I can pick up a 2nd hand Wii for 3-4000 baht with peripherals. A new one is less not more than 6000. Last time I priced consoles in Thailand they were all still breaking the 10000 mark.

I have been through the threads and haven't seen any up-to-date information. I'm thinking about picking up a console in the US while I'm visiting, but I'm reading a lot about pitfalls with all of the systems in LOS. There seem to be issues with compatibility, power supplies, support, and access to games. Can anyone give me an update on the cost benefits of these systems in Thailand. The consoles are MUCH cheaper in the US, but I'm not sure about modding a US system in Thailand, and I'm worried about power supply issues as well.

I have been through the threads and haven't seen any up-to-date information. I'm thinking about picking up a console in the US while I'm visiting, but I'm reading a lot about pitfalls with all of the systems in LOS. There seem to be issues with compatibility, power supplies, support, and access to games. Can anyone give me an update on the cost benefits of these systems in Thailand. The consoles are MUCH cheaper in the US, but I'm not sure about modding a US system in Thailand, and I'm worried about power supply issues as well.

I have an old worn out SHOEI motorcycle helmet. It's time for a replacement, but it occurred to me that perhaps there is a place that refurbishes the things. It needs a new visor, but it also could use a new lining. Is this done, and is it economical?

The red shirts are a terrorist organization????? What about the Yellow shirts they are not?????? Who funded them????? Why aren't they charged. This is why Thailand is becoming the laughing stock of the world So one sided. This is why you will never have peace here.

The yellow shirts are in a minor league. When they withdrew from the airport they even cleaned up, apologised for the inconvenience caused. They even forgot to torch the lot. Then the red-shirts, they've got it pat down. Shooting M79's at innocent bystanders, police and troops, sowing hatred through their Peoples TV, torching their home of two months, looting, etc.

The yellow leaders are charges, have acknowledged the charge, granted bail, still in Thailand. You may complain about their case progressing soo slowly. Still who has details on the police crackdown in June/July 2008 when yellow-shirt died from faulty teargas canisters? Where the PM and Minister of Interior charged (late K. Samak and K. Chalerm) ?

Thank goodness they had the army backing them up so they could achieve 100% of their demands! Otherwise they would have been branded terrorists and sentenced to jail sentences immediately. By the way, what is all this crap about cleaning the airport and apologizing? I remember a huge clean-up bill and a lot of arrogance. Are you guys reading the Nation again?

The airport was operational within 2 days. The huge clean up bill was for government house.

Edit: What were their demands that they acheived 100% of? The courts disbanded the PPP, but the PTP were still in government.

Their demand was to simply dissolve the government... the same basic demand that the red shirts had. Both parties had a lot on their agenda besides (red = exonerate Thaksin and friends / yellow = disenfranchise uneducated voters), but only the yellows got what they wanted again and again. The only thing they couldn't do is influence the election after Thaksin dissolved the gov't under pressure from them and then won again.

The methods to begin with were almost identical. Both called for rallies. Both paid -some- people to be there (the yellows did this openly on their television station), raised funds (from multiple sources), and used violence and threats against media and civilians that were bold enough to disagree with them. The main difference is that the yellows had active military units acting as guards, and the reds had active military units acting as aggressors.

The red shirts are a terrorist organization????? What about the Yellow shirts they are not?????? Who funded them????? Why aren't they charged. This is why Thailand is becoming the laughing stock of the world So one sided. This is why you will never have peace here.

The yellow shirts are in a minor league. When they withdrew from the airport they even cleaned up, apologised for the inconvenience caused. They even forgot to torch the lot. Then the red-shirts, they've got it pat down. Shooting M79's at innocent bystanders, police and troops, sowing hatred through their Peoples TV, torching their home of two months, looting, etc.

The yellow leaders are charges, have acknowledged the charge, granted bail, still in Thailand. You may complain about their case progressing soo slowly. Still who has details on the police crackdown in June/July 2008 when yellow-shirt died from faulty teargas canisters? Where the PM and Minister of Interior charged (late K. Samak and K. Chalerm) ?

Thank goodness they had the army backing them up so they could achieve 100% of their demands! Otherwise they would have been branded terrorists and sentenced to jail sentences immediately. By the way, what is all this crap about cleaning the airport and apologizing? I remember a huge clean-up bill and a lot of arrogance. Are you guys reading the Nation again?

The media coverage was apalling. They only reported what they saw. CNN and BBC kept talking to both sides of the conflict. This is such tremendous bias. The Thai media, which laments the failings of the western media, is probably right. Their comrades in China, Myanmar, Iran, and Russia would certainly agree. State controlled media is a force to be reckoned with, and is above reproach. They have been, and continue to tell us that the bulk of the fatalities were caused by the 'terrorists' shooting each other. Pictures to support this have been slow in coming, and the avalanche of footage depicting soldiers firing and sometimes hitting all manner of people (armed and otherwise) on the streets is embarrassingly one-sided. Al Jazeera seemed even-handed at first, but then they started blathering about soldiers killing unarmed civilians instead of focusing on the crack-team of black militia with their firecrackers, and occassional handgun (and WE all know, because the government told us, that all of the protesters were wielding M-79 grenades and launchers). They went for the tear jerking stuff like 'nurse shot in the head while hiding in the gov't declared temple safe-zone'. Embarassing! However, Thaksin is really really bad, which means the current gov't is very very good. Why can't the stupid foreign press see this? Why do they insist on reporting current events? Why can't live reporters do in depth exposes of the last two decades of Thai politics while they are running around in a live fire zone?

Thank goodness we have the Nation to tell us the truth, or the farangs of Thailand would be completely bereft of true news reporting. It is superior in every way. The owner is an avowed enemy of Thaksin (and former business associate), but I'm sure he has no bias whatsoever, and probably has 0 influence on his media outlets. Rupert Murdoch is certainly even handed with coverage in his papers and on his tv stations. Berlusconi is another shining example of how rich and powerful men can give an even accounting of the facts. Of course, it's much better if the state runs it all... when will the rest of the world figure out what we in Thailand have?

In the meantime, we should question why these organizations did such a BAD job in Thailand and not nearly as badly in other places. The BBC has been renowned for years for it's honest and un-biased reporting... a reputation perhaps not as shiny as in the past... but has fallen completely on its face in Thailand, for some reason. Is Thaksin paying Dan Rivers to lie? Something to think about.

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

Exactly, especially when I saw a posting on a blog from a Thai who was privy to a Government meeting days before when it was decided to plant the stuff and set it all up. Anyway, if they really had these weapons, why didn't the radicals take them with them? LMFAO at the stupidity of the argument for this evidence.

Propaganda - oldest trick in the book and these wackos are using it all the time. Don't believe any official stories in this country, whoever is in control!

"a posting on a blog ... who was privy to a government meeting"

Where is the propaganda coming from?

I've seen anonymous postings on blogs saying the US have caught aliens. I believed that 100% ... it must be true because it's an anonymous posting on a blog.

Do you think it's possible that they left in a hurry, and didn't want to be seen running down Suhkumvit carry big rifles?

Haha... so true. Anonymous blogs are pretty useless. It's like using government sponsored/controlled media to glean all your facts.

Amnesty International are a great organisation and I have a lot of respect for the work they have done over the years, but they really dropped the ball on this one.

The government went to extraordinary efforts to keep the casualites low. The world expected a blood bath when the army went to unlock the CBD, they didnt get it. Instead the Thai military acted with planning and restraint...possibly 6 weeks too much restraint...but certainly not with the brutality many western media outlets predicted ( and possibly hoped for).

The world needs a credible AI, so I hope they conduct a full, frank investigation on their statements: who drafted them, on what information and why?

Amnesty International has a long and distinguished track record. They didn't weigh in on Thailand until blood was in the streets. In their history how often have they had to retract their statements? Are you willing to discount Amnesty International in favor of the CRES? Why would their first horrific blunder be in Thailand? Is AI run by Thaksin?

No way to substantiate that, unfortuneately. Had the army and police come without machine guns (to 'fire' into the air), they would be able to state irrefutably that the red shirts fired first. But they did, and in subsequent clashes they were seen firing indescriminately at people with NO weapons. I'd say the burden of proof is very much on the military. If you come prepared for a violent and bloody confrontation, it's likely you'll stir one up. That's the problem with so many of you posters, you are just as naive as the reds on the street. You swallow all the information you like from one side of the equation and don't bother to question any of it. I accept that either side could have started the shooting and that we will never know. I accept that the reds may have WANTED the military to show up with guns so as to have an excuse to have a shooting war (which of course the government obliged them with). I'll also accept that teenagers with guns getting stuff thrown at them and cursed in the dark might get nervous and pull the trigger. The truth is probably never going to be known, but I'm not going to take the government line because it's convenient. The government in Thailand, whether it be Democrat OR Thaksinite has NEVER been truthful, why do you believe they'll start now? On the rest of Thaivisa you guys rail about corruption and lies throughout the system, but on this matter you take everything they say at face value. The only people sillier than the farmers fighting for Thaksin, are the farang 'elites' who are willing to believe a man like Suthep.

Thaksin being a corrupt liar, does not an honest government make. Blocking access to 500+ websites and censoring and blocking all media (most of it before the violence) shouldn't be a confidence builder, but apparently a one-sided message is all you need.

We saw what happened with unarmed soldiers and police when the red shirts stormed parliament and Thaicom.

We also saw April 10 that when the soldiers were attacked with guns and grenades, that they withdrew and also cancelled their planned clearance of Ratchaprasong. If the army were really intent on killing protestors, they would have continued with both and many more people would have killed.

I am not taking the government line because it's convenient. I happen to be taking the same line as the government because of the evidence I have seen from independent reports, and the clear lies that have come from the red side.

The reds were saying that their protests were for the poor and for democracy, but they have never have never shown how they can help the poor, and they have never shown anything that even resembles democracy.

They reds talked about peaceful protests, but from the very start they talked about violence. The government let them have their peaceful protests, but the reds kept on pushing, trying to get a violent reaction from the government. The reds only ever wanted violence. They only ever talked about violence.

The reds are ONLY about power. The reds (including Thaksin) have exploited the poor for their own purposes.

Thaksin used cash handouts, and happened to be in power during a booming global economy. Thaksin's policies were to get short term support while he put his family and close friends at the top of all the "checks and balance" institutions. He did nothing to help the poor in the long term. His health care policy was unfunded, so while the poor could see a doctor cheaply, there were no funds to actually provide services. There was no improvement in education during his time in government. The poor just got further into debt.

The reds have shown how much they care about democracy or free speech. They threaten or attack anyone that speaks out against them, or even anyone that tries to campaign that are not pro-red. Thaksin sued anyone that wrote anything critical of him.

The government in no way has blocked all media. There has been plenty of negative stories freely available. They have blocked media that in their opinion is telling blatent lies (ie doctored audio/video suggesting Abhisit directly ordered the army to kill protestors).

In no way am I suggesting that the current government are perfect, and I am certainly not advocating anything that they yellows say.

But to suggest that the way of the reds is the way forward for Thailand, IMO, is delusional.

I agree, the Reds had a violent agenda. I wonder why that is? Because all political change in Thailand has been violent?

Anyway, the Red leadership lied and promoted violence. The army lied and promoted violence. The government lied and promoted violence. Who should be the higher moral authority? When the Reds wouldn't negotiate during the televised talks, they lost the moral high ground. When the government sent tens of thousands of heavily armed troops to stop a few thousand protesters, they lost theirs. I still put it to you, who needs to be truthful, and who needs to be transparent? I saw lots of video of black shirts shooting soldiers. I saw tons of videos of army snipers and ordinary troops firing openly on people with nothing in their hands. The Reds were wrong for what they did. The government is not made right by default. These events are about Thais being bad across the board. Again... governments around the world lie, especially when they're agenda is to use violence to achieve their own aims. SE Asia has a horrendous track record when it comes to transparency. They were lying before, and they are lying now. On the ground reports from un-biased reporters show that both sides were doing bad things, but the government has the burden of doing the right thing. If they were, why have they been lying? On one live report I saw a reporter watching the soldiers shooting at unarmed protesters, at which point the studio anchor questioned a Thai government official directly... : "Are you shooting at the protesters?" He repeatedly insisted that the army was only targeting people with heavy weapons (most of which weren't seen or found until after the area had been cleared of journalists and allowed back in).

By the way, you site Thaicom... and I honestly don't know... but how many soldiers were injured or killed by heavy weapons wielded by red shirt protesters at Thaicom?

There were 90,000 security personnel in Bangkok, according to the government. How is that not sufficient to quell 5,000 without bringing heavy caliber machine guns, M-16s, and snipers? And because they brought all that crap from the start, they can't claim they were shot first. hel_l, the weapons used against them were their own in the first place. And now the government wants (and apparently successfully) you to believe that all the deaths (including the journalists) were actually red militants acting on their 'terrorist' agenda. Now Bangkok remains under curfew (not unreasonable), and the evidence being brought out to show the exiled journalists is astounding. There are car bombs everywhere! And the army stopped this all 'just in time'? It must be true. It's on TV.

Anyone who thinks the protesters were unarmed can easily test their conspiracy theory - go down to Rama IV and ask some of the residents if they were unarmed.

@Deeral: Allow me to propose a definition of 'terrorist' for you to ponder: Anyone who launches grenades, shoots at the residents and burns down the buildings in our neighbourhood is a terrorist. We couldn't give a rats arse about their political views.

Honestly there are some boneheads around here.

Sure, some of the red shirts were armed, but it was not an armed movement. The majority of the people there did NOT have weapons of war. However, seeing as how the government and the army spokespeople are now dictating the news (and presenting evidence after they deem areas 'safe' and let journalists in), I'm sure we can all rest assured that they are using only the truth to legitimize their own deadly use of force. The Thaivisa children know that authority figures, especially in SE Asia MUST be believed, because to do otherwise is to risk deportation or worse.

Where do you people come from that believe the likes of the government and the military? Do you hold the same esteem for these institutions back home? Even the red apologists here don't defend Thaksin as an honest source of information. You can hate the reds all you want... that's a matter of opinion, but to believe all that the establishment has to say is irresponsible and foolish. Support the government if you wish, but accept statements from the army as gospel? Shame on you!

How would you have suggested the army deal with protestors that included heavily armed people? When they started clearing the protestors with riot police on April 10, they were attacked with guns and grenades, so riot police wouldn't have been the answer would it?

No way to substantiate that, unfortuneately. Had the army and police come without machine guns (to 'fire' into the air), they would be able to state irrefutably that the red shirts fired first. But they did, and in subsequent clashes they were seen firing indescriminately at people with NO weapons. I'd say the burden of proof is very much on the military. If you come prepared for a violent and bloody confrontation, it's likely you'll stir one up. That's the problem with so many of you posters, you are just as naive as the reds on the street. You swallow all the information you like from one side of the equation and don't bother to question any of it. I accept that either side could have started the shooting and that we will never know. I accept that the reds may have WANTED the military to show up with guns so as to have an excuse to have a shooting war (which of course the government obliged them with). I'll also accept that teenagers with guns getting stuff thrown at them and cursed in the dark might get nervous and pull the trigger. The truth is probably never going to be known, but I'm not going to take the government line because it's convenient. The government in Thailand, whether it be Democrat OR Thaksinite has NEVER been truthful, why do you believe they'll start now? On the rest of Thaivisa you guys rail about corruption and lies throughout the system, but on this matter you take everything they say at face value. The only people sillier than the farmers fighting for Thaksin, are the farang 'elites' who are willing to believe a man like Suthep.

Thaksin being a corrupt liar, does not an honest government make. Blocking access to 500+ websites and censoring and blocking all media (most of it before the violence) shouldn't be a confidence builder, but apparently a one-sided message is all you need.

Anyone who thinks the protesters were unarmed can easily test their conspiracy theory - go down to Rama IV and ask some of the residents if they were unarmed.

@Deeral: Allow me to propose a definition of 'terrorist' for you to ponder: Anyone who launches grenades, shoots at the residents and burns down the buildings in our neighbourhood is a terrorist. We couldn't give a rats arse about their political views.

Honestly there are some boneheads around here.

Please enlighten us with some examples with where PURELY PEACEFUL mobs were able to effect change in their countries. If you can find a couple western examples... that would be great. Now try it in Asia. There were peaceful protests in Malaysia and Myanmar in recent years resulting in a rather sophisticated and largely bloodless crackdown (Malaysia), and a massacre (Myanmar). This isn't the west, so quit measuring the tactics and rationale protesters use with your own. And look back a ways into your own history and think about how change was ever effected in your government through demonstrations. Until the army came to Bangkok, there wasn't loss of life. If the government had enforced rule of law from the beginning, the protests wouldn't have happened.

Anyone who thinks the protesters were unarmed can easily test their conspiracy theory - go down to Rama IV and ask some of the residents if they were unarmed.

@Deeral: Allow me to propose a definition of 'terrorist' for you to ponder: Anyone who launches grenades, shoots at the residents and burns down the buildings in our neighbourhood is a terrorist. We couldn't give a rats arse about their political views.

Honestly there are some boneheads around here.

Sure, some of the red shirts were armed, but it was not an armed movement. The majority of the people there did NOT have weapons of war. However, seeing as how the government and the army spokespeople are now dictating the news (and presenting evidence after they deem areas 'safe' and let journalists in), I'm sure we can all rest assured that they are using only the truth to legitimize their own deadly use of force. The Thaivisa children know that authority figures, especially in SE Asia MUST be believed, because to do otherwise is to risk deportation or worse.

Where do you people come from that believe the likes of the government and the military? Do you hold the same esteem for these institutions back home? Even the red apologists here don't defend Thaksin as an honest source of information. You can hate the reds all you want... that's a matter of opinion, but to believe all that the establishment has to say is irresponsible and foolish. Support the government if you wish, but accept statements from the army as gospel? Shame on you!

Right Vindie... Try pulling any of the crap these zombies have in any other major city in the world and see how quickly the respective governments would break out the big guns. The problem with Thailand is they waited too long. This shi*t would have been mopped up in 72 hours in the USA, and the death toll would have been directly related to how many idiots chose to stick around after the authorities had given the order to disburse or face the consequences.

Hi Yeeoww.....

Your statement about the US is a complete fabrication.

You cannot name one respected instance in US history where protester's who were peacefully assembled were subject to being shot at and murdered by the US government. Even in the most emotional protests against the US war in Vietnam, when 100s of thousands came to Washington DC and camped out on the mall, there was virtually no violence.

The problem is Thailand is just the opposite. The people cannot assemble peacefully without being murdered. They cannot voice their opinion without their TV stations being shut down. They cannot speak out against social injustice without fear of arrest. They cannot even peacefully assemble on public fields without fear of arrest.

Anyone who says the US would "crack down" on something like this is completely wrong. In the US, citizens have a birth right to assemble peacefully. They can have their own TV stations, new papers, web sites, full freedom to assemble and to protest and to express themselves. In Thailand, the citizens to not have these basic rights, especially the rural poor.

When read these threads and post, I am truly amazed at misinformation and lies posted here. In the US, what is happening in Thailand would never happen because in the US, when you cast your vote at the polls, the military does not kick out the winner just because the elite do not agree with the results. In the US, there is a working form of democracy and the bulk of the power is with the people. Not in Thailand. The power is in guns and murder of people who protest. You can easily witness this is the streets of Bangkok today.

You left out one small detail re: US protestor's rights. They have to protest legally. That means they are restricted where they can protest. They cannot 'set up camp' in any downtown area that would affect businesses without a permit and that would be very limited so as not to disrupt the free flow of commerce. I dare you to name a protest which took place anywhere in the US that was even remotely similar to the one at Ratchaprasong. As long as the BKK protestors stayed at Pan Fa Bridge, the govt. went out of it's way to accomodate them. They could have protested there forever and a day but they wanted trouble and started moving to non permissable areas via Kok Wua and the govt. drew the line. That still wasn't enough reaction for the Reds, who want civil war, and they shut down ome of the best money-making areas in Bangkok. When has anything like that been allowed anywhere in the world? You have painted a totally false picture of the Red's behavior. That makes you a propagandist.

You are absolutely right. The reds did move and demonstrate illegally on public and private property. They absolutely deserve to be shot on site. What other options are there? We should also extend powers to the police to shoot shoplifters, grifters, bar girls, people who don't wear helmets, gamblers (that's illegal in Thailand, too), and there should be special forces squads outside every bar for the bust-ups that follow closing. Kill 'em all because they're breaking the law. Of course, murderers should still get due process... arrest them, process them, and sentence them... but folks that sit in the street, sing silly songs, and make a lot of noise need to be dealt with on a whole different level. Human rights suck! Power to the military and the governments who use them to 'ensure public safety'!

The Red Tshirts are the ones who declared War on this government. In war, all enemy are equal targets. There is no sorting out the "good" tshirts from the "bad" tshirts. Those who choose to stay there know full well the possible consequences. Their leaders know full well what they're sending their zombie fool followers into. They are the ones to be held responsible.

And I say it again, why should this government react any differently than that of, let's say, the USA, considered by many to be the most successful democratic government on earth. Any group pulling the sh*t that this brainwashed mob has gotten away with over there would have been met with the firepower of the law looooong ago. And I can tell you, the head count would be MUCH higher.

Absolute rubbish. The US tried using the national guard in the 70s to quell unrest. The result was predictable. Look it up.

Rubbish???! Please inform me as to how many people were killed in the much more recent (not not something that happened 40 years ago) Rodney King riots in L.A.? But again, you're splitting hairs here to save face (are you Thai?), obviously missing the point. Aggression is met with aggression and NO major government will put up with it.

The LA RIOTS (where there was no leadership and no organization and existed only as a means to destroy and create chaos) had many fatalities... none of which were at the hands of the military or special forces snipers. You win. It's exactly the same in Thailand!

It's amazing how so many 'educated' farangs are bent on blaming all that ails Thailand on an exiled ex-prime minister. Nobody is responsible for the army shooting civilians in Bangkok except the government. Illegal occupation of private and/or public property is not a good reason to shoot people. Neither is looting. The red shirt leaders may be selfish jerks dancing to Thaksin's tune, but it's NOT AN EXCUSE for the government to SHOOT PEOPLE. The government lies on the news everyday. So do the red shirts, but who should be the higher moral authority here? Most of you farangs come from western democracies... and most of you would support one political party over another. If you think the best solution to political impasse and or civil disobedience is to shoot those who disagree with you, then you should move to a place that supports that kind of thing (domestically) like Burma. The violence started when the army showed up... PERIOD. The rest of these arguments are pure political rhetoric, hearsay, and paranoia. Of course, if this continues, maybe you folks ARE in the right place.

The red shirts lobbing grenades, not a reason to shoot people? Pulling army out of a truck and mob beating them, not a reason to shoot?

If this were "peaceful disobedience" I'd agree with you, but this has been far from that.

The government tried and tried, set a reconciliatory path with no commitment from the reds. Of course it's time to roll. Wake up! Enough is enough and I think you will find most Thais agree (not just "moral farangs).

if the person lobbing the grenade was shot then I agree, if the person doing the shooting was shot then I agree, however shooting an unarmed man for setting up a barricade is too far. I watched the army this morning on TV showing footage they had, only 3 protesters on this footage had firearms (I know there are probably more), however I want them to show me footage showing the dead with firearms, or grenades, or petrol bombs so I can be sure these people were an immediate threat.

The Red Tshirts are the ones who declared War on this government. In war, all enemy are equal targets. There is no sorting out the "good" tshirts from the "bad" tshirts. Those who choose to stay there know full well the possible consequences. Their leaders know full well what they're sending their zombie fool followers into. They are the ones to be held responsible.

And I say it again, why should this government react any differently than that of, let's say, the USA, considered by many to be the most successful democratic government on earth. Any group pulling the sh*t that this brainwashed mob has gotten away with over there would have been met with the firepower of the law looooong ago. And I can tell you, the head count would be MUCH higher.

Absolute rubbish. The US tried using the national guard in the 70s to quell unrest. The result was predictable. Look it up.

Do people still actually believe that this is only about Thaksin?

I will be amazed if people still do not see the bigger picture here.

Would you please spell it out for us Tony?

It's amazing how so many 'educated' farangs are bent on blaming all that ails Thailand on an exiled ex-prime minister. Nobody is responsible for the army shooting civilians in Bangkok except the government. Illegal occupation of private and/or public property is not a good reason to shoot people. Neither is looting. The red shirt leaders may be selfish jerks dancing to Thaksin's tune, but it's NOT AN EXCUSE for the government to SHOOT PEOPLE. The government lies on the news everyday. So do the red shirts, but who should be the higher moral authority here? Most of you farangs come from western democracies... and most of you would support one political party over another. If you think the best solution to political impasse and or civil disobedience is to shoot those who disagree with you, then you should move to a place that supports that kind of thing (domestically) like Burma. The violence started when the army showed up... PERIOD. The rest of these arguments are pure political rhetoric, hearsay, and paranoia. Of course, if this continues, maybe you folks ARE in the right place.

The red shirts lobbing grenades, not a reason to shoot people? Pulling army out of a truck and mob beating them, not a reason to shoot?

If this were "peaceful disobedience" I'd agree with you, but this has been far from that.

The government tried and tried, set a reconciliatory path with no commitment from the reds. Of course it's time to roll. Wake up! Enough is enough and I think you will find most Thais agree (not just "moral farangs).

Rewind, reread, and rethink. I'm not defending anarchists or Thaksinites throwing grenades.... but nobody was throwing them until the army showed up. And fact is, in western countries, the extremists do throw grenades and incendiaries... often upon the police. The reaction is not to send snipers up around town, shoot any random person in the street, and then blame the protesters for shooting themselves. Would red shirts lobbing grenades legitimize shooting people? I suppose yes... but they're not shooting the grenade lobbers (nor can anybody photograph them), they're shooting unarmed people some of whom aren't even involved in the protest (lots of footage). Is that a measured and fair response from the authorities? They claim they are protecting people. Who are they protecting? Armies are not safe to be around. If you send an army somewhere, things blow up and people die. That's why we use them for national defense (or to go blow up other countries whose governments we don't like). They're not trained to protect people, they're trained to kill. The government knew what they were doing when they marched the greens in.

Do people still actually believe that this is only about Thaksin?

I will be amazed if people still do not see the bigger picture here.

Would you please spell it out for us Tony?

It's amazing how so many 'educated' farangs are bent on blaming all that ails Thailand on an exiled ex-prime minister. Nobody is responsible for the army shooting civilians in Bangkok except the government. Illegal occupation of private and/or public property is not a good reason to shoot people. Neither is looting. The red shirt leaders may be selfish jerks dancing to Thaksin's tune, but it's NOT AN EXCUSE for the government to SHOOT PEOPLE. The government lies on the news everyday. So do the red shirts, but who should be the higher moral authority here? Most of you farangs come from western democracies... and most of you would support one political party over another. If you think the best solution to political impasse and or civil disobedience is to shoot those who disagree with you, then you should move to a place that supports that kind of thing (domestically) like Burma. The violence started when the army showed up... PERIOD. The rest of these arguments are pure political rhetoric, hearsay, and paranoia. Of course, if this continues, maybe you folks ARE in the right place.

I was talking more specifically about the mechanisms that brought Abhisit to power, rather than the consitutional applications.

BTW folks... wouldn't it be great if the Thais could have a sit down like this? Instead they're in the street throwing rocks because some powerful politicians (and generals) are worried about a budget. Everybody wants their fingers in the pie, and they're all using the soldiers at hand (which explains all the military ordinance flying around).

I would simply respond that what is proven in a court of law in Thailand has been and continues to be suspect to forces outside of justice and evidence. I wouldn't stake a government on a court decision anyway. That's simply not democratic. Making rulings based on a constitution sponsored by the military is even worse!

Actually, I believe the PPP were banned using laws under the 1997 constitution, so the junta constitution doesn't come into it.

It's rare for someone to have something worth looking up regarding this mess. I'm still suspicious of the motives and progression of events back then, but your argument holds some weight (and my memory is not that great). Maybe next time I post I can echo your sentiments.

I have a hard time, however, supporting a government that uses the army against its people, censors opposing views (to a much larger extent than Thaksin did) and disseminating false information on a massive scale. To me, the burden of morality is on the government BEFORE the lay citizens.

And if what you say is true, why isn't the government stating their case in detail? That seems kind of suspect to me. After all, they have nearly full reign over the media. But Mr. Abhisit always insists that he was elected by his fellow MPs. That's true! But he never follows up with the events that brought him to that point. It seems to me that, circumstantially, the burden is very much on him to provide that information. Instead they are trumpeting paranoid theories, much like a former PM shortly before his fall from grace.

BTW, Mr. Bother... thank you for the intelligent post!

Unfortunately, it wasn't true. (see correction post above).

But, it was still a law, and a law that is reasonable. It was a law that existed before the election, so the PPP leadership can't make excuses. There should be more laws to stop corruption in Thailand.

It's rare for someone to have something worth looking up regarding this mess. I'm still suspicious of the motives and progression of events back then, but your argument holds some weight (and my memory is not that great). Maybe next time I post I can echo your sentiments.

I have a hard time, however, supporting a government that uses the army against its people, censors opposing views (to a much larger extent than Thaksin did) and disseminating false information on a massive scale. To me, the burden of morality is on the government BEFORE the lay citizens.

And if what you say is true, why isn't the government stating their case in detail? That seems kind of suspect to me. After all, they have nearly full reign over the media. But Mr. Abhisit always insists that he was elected by his fellow MPs. That's true! But he never follows up with the events that brought him to that point. It seems to me that, circumstantially, the burden is very much on him to provide that information. Instead they are trumpeting paranoid theories, much like a former PM shortly before his fall from grace.

BTW, Mr. Bother... thank you for the intelligent post!

I would simply respond that what is proven in a court of law in Thailand has been and continues to be suspect to forces outside of justice and evidence. I wouldn't stake a government on a court decision anyway. That's simply not democratic. Making rulings based on a constitution sponsored by the military is even worse!

Actually, I believe the PPP were banned using laws under the 1997 constitution, so the junta constitution doesn't come into it.

....

However, the reds have one spindly leg to stand on. They don't have the government they elected. The constitution was put together by a military junta (hello Burma!), and the courts were selective in the parties and MPs they eliminated (or the Dems would have been gone with as much speed... not to mention Mr. Newin). Everything else is paranoia and hearsay. Who shot who first? Why? It's kind of immaterial. Everybody has been bad one way or another... (it's bad for citizens to shoot the army, it's bad for the army to shoot citizens... and let's face it, everybody brought guns) but the current government has never won an election. IF everybody hates the reds... the Dems should have no problem winning an election. Let it happen, tell everybody to put their damned colors away, and we can get back to corruption as usual. At least, Thailand deserves a government that isn't propped up and maintained by the military. By the way, people... democracy IS mob rule of a fashion... or have you forgotten?

I think that spindly leg isn't really there.

The reds DO have the MPs they elected. Unfortunately, the MPs they elected weren't the required majority, so now they don't have the government they wanted.

Umm... did you miss the part about selectively disqualifying parties and MPs? That was there for a reason. Do you think those MPs were corrupt? I do. Do you think the Dems weren't? I don't. If the rule of law had been applied evenly, there wouldn't be enough MPs left to form a government for anyone (after all, the brilliant consitution (keeping in mind this is Thailand) makes sure that ONE infraction disqualifies an entire party). In my book, that's not a democratic process. Governments should be chosen by the people, not the military or the courts they appoint.

What you believe is of no consequence. What can be proven in a court of law is. The PPP party leadership were caught on film engaging in electoral fraud. The Democrat party leadership were not. Those are the facts. Nevertheless the Democrat Party may yet be dissolved over campaign finance irregularities. We shall see if that is proven in a court of law.

I would simply respond that what is proven in a court of law in Thailand has been and continues to be suspect to forces outside of justice and evidence. I wouldn't stake a government on a court decision anyway. That's simply not democratic. Making rulings based on a constitution sponsored by the military is even worse!

....

However, the reds have one spindly leg to stand on. They don't have the government they elected. The constitution was put together by a military junta (hello Burma!), and the courts were selective in the parties and MPs they eliminated (or the Dems would have been gone with as much speed... not to mention Mr. Newin). Everything else is paranoia and hearsay. Who shot who first? Why? It's kind of immaterial. Everybody has been bad one way or another... (it's bad for citizens to shoot the army, it's bad for the army to shoot citizens... and let's face it, everybody brought guns) but the current government has never won an election. IF everybody hates the reds... the Dems should have no problem winning an election. Let it happen, tell everybody to put their damned colors away, and we can get back to corruption as usual. At least, Thailand deserves a government that isn't propped up and maintained by the military. By the way, people... democracy IS mob rule of a fashion... or have you forgotten?

I think that spindly leg isn't really there.

The reds DO have the MPs they elected. Unfortunately, the MPs they elected weren't the required majority, so now they don't have the government they wanted.

Umm... did you miss the part about selectively disqualifying parties and MPs? That was there for a reason. Do you think those MPs were corrupt? I do. Do you think the Dems weren't? I don't. If the rule of law had been applied evenly, there wouldn't be enough MPs left to form a government for anyone (after all, the brilliant consitution (keeping in mind this is Thailand) makes sure that ONE infraction disqualifies an entire party). In my book, that's not a democratic process. Governments should be chosen by the people, not the military or the courts they appoint.

Thaivisa conversations are so much fun:

A: I know Thai people. They all hate the reds and think they're stupid. If you disagree you're stupid.

B: I know Thai people. They all hate the yellows and think they're stupid. If you disagree you're stupid.

Now... those of you who love red... think about this:

Violence as a political tool. Mob rule. Corruption. Distorted information.

Now... those of you who love yellow... think about this :

Violence as a political tool. Mob rule. Corruption. Distorted information.

However, the reds have one spindly leg to stand on. They don't have the government they elected. The constitution was put together by a military junta (hello Burma!), and the courts were selective in the parties and MPs they eliminated (or the Dems would have been gone with as much speed... not to mention Mr. Newin). Everything else is paranoia and hearsay. Who shot who first? Why? It's kind of immaterial. Everybody has been bad one way or another... (it's bad for citizens to shoot the army, it's bad for the army to shoot citizens... and let's face it, everybody brought guns) but the current government has never won an election. IF everybody hates the reds... the Dems should have no problem winning an election. Let it happen, tell everybody to put their damned colors away, and we can get back to corruption as usual. At least, Thailand deserves a government that isn't propped up and maintained by the military. By the way, people... democracy IS mob rule of a fashion... or have you forgotten?

Unfortunately there is only two ways out of this. Cave in and set up elections within 3-4 months, or man up and disperse the reds. If the Reds won't negociate then there simply is no middle ground.

As for "Rule of Law" the Reds have proved over and over what a big joke that was. At least nobody can throw accusations of double standards: the law simply doesn't apply to anybody anymore.

It wouldn't be 'caving in' but a reasonable response by an un-mandated government - should have been done 3 weeks ago - go to the country and seek assurance that the people AGREE with what the government are doing - but they won't do that will they and (drum roll) because... tut tut tut taaa! they may lose - so what's another way? ermmmm????? stall, stall, stall - maybe that'll work huh?

My wife friends and family live in Udon, and they think the reds are idiots

Wife has many friends from Uni all live in Issan all think the reds are idiots

Wifes village in Issan is hurting badly as there bangkok money has been cut off

Law has no value in Thailand so everyone start to take the law into their own hands, this is causing mass problems in Issan

maybe you should stop talking to the red shirts and start talking to the people

If the PM can manage to bring peace back to Thailand he will will the next election with a land slide

People are interested in their lives and the ability to live them

Red shirts thank you for finally bring some basic education to Issan, showing what Mob rule is not what the Red leaders have tried to hard to convince you

National integrity and democracy is worth the Blood, asiancup, Show me one democracy that has not paid the blood price. I hope the military stands up for the country and lays taxsins red shirts to waste. I don't want this great country turning into Cambodia.

i'll second that

Hear! Hear! Let's do this right and turn into Myanmar. Let the military continue to dictate the democratic process. Brilliant!