Jamnjam

Is it possible please to install a 49 cc engine on a bicycle,many thanks.

Hi,

I've been motoring around Thailand (Nakhonsitammarat) for two years now on my motorised bicycle. I've got a couple and I've driven up to the far corner of Yunnan with my wife using them as transport. Easy to cross borders with, no registration issues, easy to load onto buses and possible to load onto planes.

I had never thought of a motorised bicycle as a good idea due to the fact most motorised bicycles were driven by a friction roller onto the back wheel. Others were home made based on a chain drive.

It wasn't until I came across a small company who had invented a belt driven wheel using a spoke, clip-on drive ring. Loved the idea straight away so I ordered a couple of these rings, gears and belts over the internet. I bought a standard honda 31cc 4 stroke from a local Thai store and had the local motor bike mechanic help me put it together.

Check out their site at www.goldeneagle.com. Today the company is using a heavier duty belt so you could probably get away with mounting a 50 cc engine if you really don't want to pedal up hills much.

Both my bikes can move along at 50 km/h in most flat conditions. That's enough speed for a bicycle. Brakes are no problem on a good mountain bike which is designed for stopping riders speeding downhill.

Still if your interested, the whole thing is only a fraction cheaper than getting a small 100cc motorcycle.

You definitely do stand out riding a motorised bicycle in Thailand. I've had a pickup truck full of cops all cheering me along and driving side-by-side with me. No matter where I go I'm drawing far more attention on the bike than any other form of transportation and all of it has been very friendly.

With hills you have to put in too. It's probably the only chance most of us will ever know what it would be like to be like Lance Armstrong powering up a mountain.

Anyway, overall it's a lot of fun, simple and reliable. Especially good if you want to travel throughout Asia with little to know problems unlike with registered vehicles.

Goodluck.

Go talk to a 'substantive' lawyer and establish exactly what the Law says now. It'll cost very little because the lawyer will learn the true position in an hour, and save you wasting more "many months" on the same topic.

Doctor,

It would be very informative for us all if you could just link us to the current law your suggesting.

In the meantime I'd suggest others who genuinely want to know the correct side of law to be on to take the doctors suggestion and see a 'competent' Thai International lawyer.

Sorry for taking so long to reply, am out of the country in Europe, having done the PP swap on the way out of BKK on a virgin Thai passport with no EU visa

You make a good point on both nationality and the land ownership issue. One though, which is unsubsubstantiated by practice. You claim to have a good insight into all this, can you give us your view on why the section 22 hasn't been applied in practice?

The reason I ask is on matter such as this (and I represent myself who has significant experience working for the Thai government - if we are going to start comparing our metaphorical penis sizes here), Thai officials are especially by the book, ma'am.

Yes, we all know that these same officials melt at the knee when some hi-so or connected person tells them what to do, but the fact of the matter is Thai embasssies and passport offices are re-issuing Thai passports all. So Nok from Issan with a British Passport renewing her Thai PP in London gets the same treatment as some of my very hi-so friends who have decided that Kensington High Street or Switzerland is their scene.

Yes, I realise that your GF and you have looked into this, and consulting lawyers and legal experts along the way. But, so have I. Ones from the council of state even, as for myself and my family this is an especially important issue which would have a HUGE impact on where and how we all live. Their conclusion is simply that alot of Thai law is contradictory, and in especially politically sensitive cases, drafted deliberately so to please all parties. But in cases like this, certain precedents and positions are taken in practice, and in this case, dual nationality has been allowed. Not exactly scientific (and I wish it was).

So we agree to disagree I guess.

If nothing else I at least got a few good laughs.

For those who are genuinely interested in ensuring they are on the right side of the law when it comes to Thai Nationality Law and Thai International Law then I will simply provide links to such Thai acts. From this information people may make their own informed decisions instead of having to rely on self-opinions of others which may very well be based on self-denial. This is one of many reasons to refer to official law documents and competent Thai International Lawyers.

Link to Thailand's Nationality Act as amended in 2535 (Note: this act was amended again in 2538.)

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...onality_Act.htm

(This has been linked to this forum before).

I have no link to Thailand's International law. This is where it states Thailand's position on dual nationality. If I do obtain one I'll link it to a new thread.

Let's look at another case to examine the Thai Nationality Act a little further.

Take a person who is:

1. Male.

2. Born to a father of Australian Nationality.

3. Born to a mother of Thai Nationality.

4. Thirty something years old.

5. Has both Thai Nationality and Australian Nationality.

(I'm Australian by birth hence the Australian theme to the case)

According to the Thai Nationality Act lets examine the consequence of each section in regards to the example person above. We need to study chapter 2, Loss of Thai Nationality which has sections 13 through to 22.

Section 13: A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

Well our person is not a woman so section 13 doesn't apply to our example person.

Section 14: A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father, or a person who acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph 2 is required, if he desires to retain his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years, according to such form and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

Section 14 does apply to our example person - a Thai nationality, born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of his father. So this section makes it a required duty for our example person to renounce his Thai nationality if he desires to keep his Australian nationality after he has reached the age of 20. This duty has a time frame of 1 year. And I have a copy of such a form if anybody would like one (in Thai of course).

Section 15: Except in the case under Section 14, a person who has Thai nationality and other nationality, or who requires Thai nationality by naturalisation shall, if he desires to renounce Thai nationality, file an application with the competent official according to such form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations. The granting or refusal of permission for renunciation of Thai nationality shall lie with the discretion of the Minister.

Section 15 doesn't apply to our example person. This section is similar to section 13 except it is for alien women who have become naturalised after marrying a Thai national or Thai couples who have obtained another nationality through migration.

Section 16: I won't state this section as it doesn't refer to this case example. Please refer to the above link. This section applies to alien women who have been naturalised through marriage.

Section 17: With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or god morals.

The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor shall order the revocation of Thai nationality.

Section 17 may or may not apply depending where our person was born. This section shows clear powers to the Minister and Court for reason of being able to revoke the Thai nationality of a person born to an alien father in Thailand. This may be a person born between aliens or a person born with an alien father and Thai mother.

Section 18 refers to people who obtained Thai citizenship through being in Thailand at the time of birth to alien parents. I'll not quote this section as it doesn't apply to this example case so please refer to the link above if interested.

Section 19: The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation if it appears that:

(1) The naturalisation was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation.

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two, and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

Section 19 refers to powers of the Minster in regards to revoking Thai nationality of people who have been naturalised (i.e. not born in Thailand). If section 18 didn't apply to our case example then section 19 definitely does. Quite a bit of power for the Minister to revoke the Thai nationality of our example person.

Section 20 refers to a committee that shall be set up to consider the revocation of Thai nationality for sections 16,17(1) or 18,19. The Minister can consider this committee's opinion. Please refer to the link above for more information.

Section 21: A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father and may acquire the nationality of his father according to the nationality law of his father shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card according to the law on registration of aliens.

Section 21 refers to our example case except for the fact that Australia doesn't have a registration system for registering citizens. So I doubt this can apply at all until Australia passes law for registering citizens with an identification card and number. Though when and if Australia does then yet another reason for losing ones Thai nationality under Thai law.

Section 22: A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

Well this section really sums up the situation.

I'll leave it for the readers to inform themselves. I'm not advocating anything. I'm a person who has reason to investigate into this and have done so for many months before I'll make a decision on what to do regarding dual citizenship. It wasn't until recently, when I was given an article in a Thai Law journal that exposed the attitudes and beliefs of Thai citizens that had become naturalised as an alien in regards to Thai National Law, that I decided to checkout this forum that I had been using for other reasons. I was quite dismayed and had expected such responses I had seen from a few people.

There is a clear substantive law in Thailand.

I have had it confirmed by both the RTE in London and the MFA in Bangkok that my wife and step-daughter have definitely not forfeited their Thai nationality, nor any of their rights as Thai nationals, by taking out British citizenship as well.

One can believe a self appointed "expert" or one can believe the Thai government. The choice is up to the individual.

Agreed ... absolutely.

One has the freedom to believe what anybody has to say. That's up to the reader or listener.

Seek professional help through a competent Thai lawyer or judge.

Be very wary around matters of law. I am not representing myself as a lawyer on this site.

Thanks for the advice, but I am old enough to know this.

For discussion purposes only:

Section 13 says a Thai women who marries and alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband, shall, if she desires, renounce her Thai citizenship (i.e. she does not have to renounce her Thai citizenship). Section 22 says a person of Thai nationality who has been naturalized as an alien shall lose their Thai citizenship. Maybe I am just not thinking correctly today, but I see this as a contradiction.

To all,

Under Thai International Law the Thai government cannot "force" a Thai citizen to give up their Thai citizenship and likewise, Thai citizens have total freedom to obtain dual citizenship. Section 13 just emphasises this situation. This section only states the freedom of the Thai woman to make decisions over her citizenship status. Nothing else should be read into this statement.

Section 22 only mentions the outcome of any choice a Thai citizen makes related to citizenship status (dual, revoked or renounced).

The government can only cancel ones citizenship under exceptional situations as defined under the Thai constitution, e.g. spying against the nation.

Now put yourself in a court of law of Thailand. If you have obtained dual citizenship, ones choice of course, and haven't renounced ones Thai citizenship, again of your own choice, then how will this situation affect the court outcome? A good question for a Thai lawyer. This is were section 22 can cost you a lot - in court. The answer to the above question is that the judge will make a decision using the citizenship a person has last obtained i.e. as an alien. Then laws affecting aliens come into play. Nobody can take your citizenship away from you but your rights in law can definitely be affected by any choice made from becoming a dual citizen.

Again, becoming a dual citizen is not illegal, but it definitely weakens the Thai persons rights involving property and employment. If in doubt always seek advice from a professional Thai Lawyer. I'm just using the position I am in to help people to be more aware.

ps. This statement I made is for any reader who comes across this thread. Sorry, as it did seem a bit personal.

Be very wary around matters of law. I am not representing myself as a lawyer on this site.

Please give me the section in the Migration regulations 1994 where it says I can not apply for a more substantive visa and where it says my wife has to go back to her originating country?

Please supply information where it says you have to have a return ticket. Please explain what you would judge be exceptional circumstances.

Simro, do a quick google search for "8503 condition". This will satisfy all the questions you have a bout this conditional stamp. Also read the attachment I added to my last posting above.

Good luck.

And in chapter 2, section 22 of that same act as quoted above, it states:

A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

And this small statement has been enough for Thai authorities to seize land that was bought by a Thai national who had been naturalised as an alien.

This was part of the amendments made in 2535 (14 years ago) and this same act has been amended again on 21st July 2538 (11 years ago).

This act doesn't stop Thai nationals from becoming naturalised as an alien, as section 13 says, but it does say that a Thai national who is naturalised as an alien shall lose Thai nationality.

The Thai government will not chase you down and tell you. A Thai citizen can happily use their dual passports and keep updating their Thai ID card but in law they are no longer seen as Thai citizens.

So before buying some Thai land as a dual passport holder then consider the huge risk involved - go see a Thai lawyer. They'll probably tell you to renounce your alien citizenship.

There are probably no risks travelling to and from Thailand with dual passports. There are no fines that I know of. So if this is all you are worried about then there is nothing really to worry about.

Please, if you are trying DIY law work, either read each act very, very carefully or I'd suggest getting professional help.

JamnJam clearly you have a good grip on Thai Law, and your comment above supports a decision I made 18 years ago when all our property was bought in the TW's "mothers" name and mother and stepfather have lived on it since then.

They were the days before the new rules in regard to TW's owning land and I was advised then of the risks involved in game playing. I was also advised that my TW could legally inheirit the property should her mother die.

Unfortunately this has recently occurred, can you please advise me if you comment above applies to her (my TW) now legally owning the land etc. It is of particular interest because (a) She does not want any risk of losing it. ( Her will leaves it to her sons (my stepsons) on her demise.

You and your wife acted before the law was changed. That is your rightful defence. In terms of acts to defend the matter I'll have to refer to my friends who are Thai judges and lawyers. In your case you definitely probably don't want to advertise the fact to anybody you can't trust. I'm Australian by birth. Let me seek some advice before answering any further. Hopefully it will help others to understand the rights in the same position as you. If your wife (I'm assuming) keeps her mother surname, keeps updating her ID card and lives as a regular Thai person, I doubt, at this time, that officials will notice. But one day, who knows, the government my want to be "more strict" about the nationality law than they are today.

Keep posted.

go to chapter 2 - Loss of Thai Nationality. In this chapter, section 13 and section 22 are probably of most interest to most people on this forum. Section 13 is from the original act of 2508. It is a customary statement. In Thai customs, Thai men are seen as leaders of the household and hence Thai law is written with this old custom kept in mind. Section 13 says:

A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

O.k, section 13 is simple enough. A Thai woman may renounce her Thai nationality if she desires and if she is nationalised as an alien.

Section 22 was added in an amendment made in 2535. Section 22 says:

A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

That is even easier to understand.

It looks like the two sections contradict each other and I am not as sure as you are that the one that came later cancels out the provision that was already on the books. Its about as clear as mud.

It's that same mud that lawyers learn to see through. Section 13 only means that a Thai woman is allowed to obtain the nationality of her husband and she may renounce her own citizenship if she so desires. In a court of law this all you can argue - she had a choice in the matter of obtaining another citizenship and renouncing her own citizenship. It definitely doesn't say that she can keep her Thai citizenship after becoming a dual national. So there is no contradiction.

However section 22, a later amendment, is a hard hitter in a court of law. This states the three reasons in which a Thai national shall lose their Thai nationality.

Be very wary around matters of law. I am not representing myself as a lawyer on this site.

Edit: changed contradiction from conflict.

I was giving advice before I left Phuket Thailand not to put in an application for my wife to stay in Australia from Thailand but to apply for a tourist visa and change the visa from Australia, well it appears that was bad advice from a man I know to be a barrister and immigration agent.

I applied for the tourist visa for my wife from Phuket and was not aware of the "No further stay” (8503) condition stamped on my wife’s passport until the day we left for Australia as the passport was sealed at the VFFS in Bangkok and they could not tell me if my wife had the visa due to it being sealed.

So on the 20th September (Thai Government take over) I took a taxi from the airport to pick up the passport and returned to the airport no fully aware what the condition 8503 meant!

We arrived in Australia on the 21st September and it would appear to me that I have until the 20th December to try and keep my wife with me.

Has any one information on section 52b for waiving visa condition 8503.

At the time of the application I had contact with Robert Chambers at the Australian Embassy in Bangkok, I called Robert and was having a conversation with him and at the same time some one from the Australian Embassy in Bangkok called my wife unknown to me conflicting information was given to the other person from the embassy, this was due to my wife’s friend who was telling my wife what to say.

The girl was a friend of my wife and did not want my wife to leave as she was her only friend at work, so when my wife was asked are you coming back the answer was NO!

Also asked do you have a return ticket my wife said no, this part was irrelevant as my father who fitted the criteria for a sponsor was also a sponsor for accommodation and money’s

It's interesting what Australian Lawyers think about the act that brought this 8503 condition into being, which was about 5 years ago. It seems that a lot of couples have applied for a SV in Oz with this 8503 condition stamped on their visa and that their visa was refused (after happily taking the $2000 application fee). It's a good thing that you did spot this condition sooner than later. This condition allows embassy officials to get around the discrimination laws. Was that the intention of big brother? Who knows!

Good luck with the whole system Simro.reg8503.pdf

From http://www.multiplecitizenship.com/wscl/ws_THAILAND.html

DUAL CITIZENSHIP: NOT RECOGNIZED. Exceptions:

Child born abroad to Thai parents, who obtains the citizenship of the foreign country of birth, may retain dual citizenship until reaching the age of majority (18). At this point, person must choose which citizenship to retain.

A Thai woman who marries a foreign national and acquires her husband's citizenship has technically lost her Thai citizenship. Should the marriage end in death or divorce, the Thai national woman could regain her Thai citizenship. This is an unofficial dual citizenship designed to protect female Thai nationals.

WRONG.

I'd stick with the Thai embassy site, which is correct.

This interpretation which you have stuck here is wrong. For starters, the time for 'chosing' under Thai law is between 20 and 21 years of age. There is an option to chose, but no compulsion. Nor is there any penalty for those who don't chose (ie a certain citizenship is defaulted to).

So opinionated Samran! Yes, Farma is a little incorrect but she isn't acting as a lawyer. She is just trying to suggest something. Anyway, a Thai national has a year to decide which nationality they will become once they turn 20 years of age. After this 1 year grace period, then section 22 of the Thai Nationality Act will be the outcome decider in court. Seek professional help for your children before they turn 20.

There are no penalties, which is probably the main reason why so many people think it's o.k for a Thai national to have dual citizenship. It comes down to what rights a Thai national loses when they become nationalised as an alien. Of course you can hide from the law as so many do. But if the law finds out, then a Thai national who has been naturalised as an alien will be viewed as a farang (a foreigner). What do you have to lose - lots if you have bought property* as a nationalised alien.

*(property only a Thai national could own).

Everyone, please check Thai Law. Thai Law revoked dual citizenship years ago (about 13 years ago) since they started having troubles in the south with dual Malay/Thai citizens. Today and for the last 13 years citizens of Thailand can only have one citizenship. However, children under the age of 21 can have two citizenships but must make a decision when they turn 21 years of age.

I've read, re-read, and then read again, the Nationality Act of 1992 (Thai version). Have you? I guess not, as you are feeding this forum utmost cr@p as far as this issue is concened.

As for illegality of dual Malaysian/Thai nationality. Of course it is illegal, as Malaysian law prohibits dual nationality in all forms for Malaysian nationals. So in that instance, it is illegal, but not from the perspective of Thailand.

It is quite obvious, from your reaction, that you are blinded by some faith in your own self knowledge. Too bad.

I can state the act word for word and have both Thai and English versions, know of its history and changes.

Anyway, for those who are not so cemented in place, then go get the act that Samran so nicely stated, Thai or English version as they state the same, go to chapter 2 - Loss of Thai Nationality. In this chapter, section 13 and section 22 are probably of most interest to most people on this forum. Section 13 is from the original act of 2508. It is a customary statement. In Thai customs, Thai men are seen as leaders of the household and hence Thai law is written with this old custom kept in mind. Section 13 says:

A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

O.k, section 13 is simple enough. A Thai woman may renounce her Thai nationality if she desires and if she is nationalised as an alien.

Section 22 was added in an amendment made in 2535. Section 22 says:

A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

That is even easier to understand. But unfortunately most DIY lawyers don't read the entire act, or don't read carefully enough, or think they know the answer before they get to the last section. Samran has read and re-read the Thai Nationality Act as he stated above. In need of law help - get professional help.

Please note that this act was last amended on 21st July 2538 (1995).

However, I'm pretty sure you can not have dual nationality as a Thai. You have to choose your nationality at 18. If this has changed i have definitely not heard of it. Do u have a link to any info?

No direct link, but the following was posted on Thailand-UK last August. I've seen it quoted on other boards as well.

“Section 13 of the Citizenship Act 1965 stipulates that a female Thai national who marries a foreigner and is later granted citizenship by her foreign husband’s home country shall maintain her Thai nationality.

There is no Thai law that stipulates that she must lose her Thai citizenship. However, she may choose to revoke her Thai citizenship, a decision the Thai government will announce the Government Gazette.

For Thai children with dual nationality, the Citizenship Act (3rd issue) 1992 states that a Thai national with a foreign father may declare his or her intention to revoke Thai nationality within the year following the child’s 20th birthday.

The law does not mention that the child will automatically have his or her Thai citizenship revoked. If the child does not declare his or her intention to revoke Thai citizenship, that child will still hold Thai nationality.”

Monday, April 12, 2004 Satchaphand Atthakor, Deputy Director-General, Consular Affairs Department, Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

(My emphasis)

I also queried this point with the RTE in London when my wife and step-daughter qualified for British citizenship, and was assured by them that they could become British and still retain their Thai nationality as well.

And in chapter 2, section 22 of that same act as quoted above, it states:

A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

And this small statement has been enough for Thai authorities to seize land that was bought by a Thai national who had been naturalised as an alien.

This was part of the amendments made in 2535 (14 years ago) and this same act has been amended again on 21st July 2538 (11 years ago).

This act doesn't stop Thai nationals from becoming naturalised as an alien, as section 13 says, but it does say that a Thai national who is naturalised as an alien shall lose Thai nationality.

The Thai government will not chase you down and tell you. A Thai citizen can happily use their dual passports and keep updating their Thai ID card but in law they are no longer seen as Thai citizens.

So before buying some Thai land as a dual passport holder then consider the huge risk involved - go see a Thai lawyer. They'll probably tell you to renounce your alien citizenship.

There are probably no risks travelling to and from Thailand with dual passports. There are no fines that I know of. So if this is all you are worried about then there is nothing really to worry about.

Please, if you are trying DIY law work, either read each act very, very carefully or I'd suggest getting professional help.

No problems whatsoever and no rights etc are taken away.

Many members of this site have wives, children and husbands with two passports. A few members also have both as well

Do a search on this site and you'll see many posts on this topic.

Main thing to remember is to travel in and out of Thailand on the Thai PP's and to the rest of the world on the Brit PP.

This fact doesn't make it legal. However you are correct in what you say except the main thing is to get proper Thai law help especially if you plan on investing money in Thailand in your wife's name.

Thailand definitely allows dual nationality.

Don't know about Sweden, though.

But, as she is resident in Thailand, would she qualify for Swedish nationality? With most countries one has to have been resident in that country for a minimum period before qualifying to apply for naturalisation (in the UK it's 5 years, or 3 years for the spouse of a British citizen). Unless, ofcourse, she qualifies by right of birth.

Quote: samran Posted 2006-08-12 10:09:39

No problem from the Thai side. Do a search on this site. This issue is discussed repeately.

Everyone, please check Thai Law. Thai Law revoked dual citizenship years ago (about 13 years ago) since they started having troubles in the south with dual Malay/Thai citizens. Today and for the last 13 years citizens of Thailand can only have one citizenship. However, children under the age of 21 can have two citizenships but must make a decision when they turn 21 years of age.

I wouldn't take anything related to Law in this forum for granted, including my knowledge on Thai Law. Seek out a Thai Lawyer to make sure of your Thai partner's rights, especially before buying property in Thailand.

Dual nationality has not been a problem in the eyes of the Thai government since 1993 when the law was changed. It has been fully legal in Australia in all cases since 2002.

Military conscription is not related to the use of Thai passports. I know from experience, so coming and going from Thailand on Thai passports will not be a problem. It is related to being registered on the house register though. If you reside in Thailand, and on the house register then you are liable for being called up.

If however, you are outside of Thailand (and thus not on any tabieen baan) then there is no recourse to be called up. Loophole I know, but if you live overseas, you have no proper tabien baan in Thailand. Stay off the radar until you are 30 and you are effectively exempted from all military obligations.

Hi all,

My wife just finished studying Thai Law and in the last semester she studied about Thai citizenship laws.

Both Thai Law books and her teacher/lawyer state that Thai citizens don't have the right to dual citizenship. If another citizenship is obtained then they must report this to the Thai authorities. Whereupon they lose their Thai citizenship and passport. If property is bought after becoming an Australian citizen then it has been purchased illegally which gives the Thai government full rights to redeeming the property. We know of Thai people who have lost their property because they have two citizenships. We also know of Thai people who are ignorant of this law and have bought property after obtaining a second citizenship. These people risk their full investment. Being caught depends on a few things, e.g. did the Thai wife change her surname, do officials have reasons to check (easy to check too), does the official care or can he be bribed. You may be lucky, you may not be.

So if your Thai partner gets Australian citizenship then they have officially revoked their Thai citizenship.

For years I was confused by rumours of Thai's losing their property because they were married to a foreigner. This has nothing to do with it. It depends on whether they get a second citizenship.

Just beware - there are laws and sometimes these laws are followed.

Now going off the dependants I read this to me that Yoya and our baby are both dependant on me and their mum...

So do I list them both in

[a]

All your children (including from previous marriages/relationships, or deceased)[/b]

and in

All your other dependants (including any dependent children of a dependant, or deceased)

as well as having them as children and dependants on my wifes form?

Is it better to have Yoya only on my wifes?

Im confused. Thanks for any help.

Hello,

IMHO

Yoya is your step daughter(?) and I believe this applies for de-facto and spouse relationships. I'm not sure about fiancée relationships.

Other dependants, I believe, refers to children of your children or step children making them your grandchildren or step-grand kids(?).

So I'd put Yoya and your biological child under section "(a) all your children" only.

Hope that helps.

James.

What is the easiest hospital in BKK to use to get the medical tests?

I know there are afew on the list, but we would like to get everythnig, including x-rays done all at once if possible. Any recomendations

I forgot,

BNH hospital is great. It's 500m from the embassy (towards Sathorn ferry station and opposite side from embassy). They have a great lounge to sit and wait with free food and coffee. It's a nice relaxing stop. Much better then the government hospitals. The tests cost 3000 baht but it's a full check up which is always a good thing to do once in a while. Make sure she brings her passport and get a letter from the VFS office first. If she is going to change her surname then you must change her name in the passport first. The passport office is not far from the Pinkloa Bus Station (Eastern Bus terminal).

James

Aussiestyle,

It's best not to rush things. Make sure everything is right, especially names. If you want to change your missus surname then it is straightforward. The passport is an amendment and this takes 2 hours. The ID should be changed at her local ampur office. I think she may have to wait for a new ID card.

Try to get as many statements as possible. Make sure whoever writes one for you that you give them the spelling of the applicant's full name. We also included statements from two close British colleagues. A certified birth certificate would also be good to have with the certified copy of the drivers license.

Type out your own personal statements. Your wife should do hers in Thai unless she is quite good at English. Then translate it. I covered my statement under several headings and used lettered bullets. These are the headings I included in my statement:

1. The following states how, when and where I first met <wife's name>.

2. The following states how our relationship developed into a long term relationship.

3. The following states significant events in our lives together.

4. The following states how <name> and I share our domestic responsibilities.

5. The following states how <name> and I share our finances.

6. The following states how <name> and I socialise.

7. The following states our emotionally support to each other.

8. The following states our plans for the future.

If you don't own your own house in Oz then you also must write out a statement outlining how you will fulfil your sponsorship obligations. Things like where she'll be living and will you be living with her. We are moving back into my parents home to begin with. They'll be travelling around Oz anyway. So I got my Dad to write a supporting statement too about staying at his house.

About the 40SP and 47SP. Best you ring the VFS and ask. We tried to do the Internet forms but they have errors in them and we couldn't amend them. Check out this email I got from immi:

Mr James ******

Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your email to the DIMA FAmily Mailbox on 13 October 2006

regarding the difficulties you experienced filling out the electronic

form 40SP Sponsorship for a partner to migrate to Australa. Your enquiry

has been referred to the Family Section for response.

Details of all previous sponsorships, including unsuccessful

applications to sponsor, should be included in responses to Q17,

regardless of whether a previous unsuccessful application to sponsor

related to your current partner.

Immigration officers are not permitted to direct applicants in how to

fill out application forms, however based on your previous advice that

your application to sponsor your current partner four years ago was

unsuccessful, and that you would now like to lodge another application

to sponsor the same partner, you would therefore answer YES to the

question ‘Have you previously sponsored/nominated a spouse (including de

facto), prospective spouse (fiancé(e)) or interdependent partner?’

In response to the question ‘Date relationship ended’, you could

annotate the form to indicate the relationship had not ended.

As indicated on the 40SP form you are also able to provide any

information relevant to Q17 on an additional sheet of paper which can be

attached to your application.

I hope this information has been of assistance.

Yours sincerely

<name>

And second reply to more of my questioning.

Mr James ******

Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your email to the Global Feedback Unit on 3 October 2006

regarding the difficulties you experienced filling out the electronic form

40SP Sponsorship for a partner to migrate to Australa. Your enquiry has

been referred to the Family Section for response.

We are currently seeking to address errors contained in the electronic 40SP

form, including the anomaly you raised in your email.

In the meantime, you are still able to print and complete the electronic

form 40SP by hand for lodgement by mail to the Australian Visa Application

Centre (AVAC) operated by VFS (Thailand) Ltd. VFS will charge a fee for

this service. This fee is in addition to the scheduled fee charged by the

Australian Embassy for all visa applications. For more information about

VFS including fees charged, contact details, office locations, office hours

and lodgement procedures see www.vfs-au.net .

Completing the form by hand will enable you to annotate the form to ensure

your circumstances are fully understood by the case officer.

Yours sincerely

<name>

I understand what you're going through. Just remember it's a waiting game so it's better to wait for a successful visa then an unsuccessful one. That is, make sure you have plenty of evidence that covers the spectrum of a relationship as stated by the immi officials before submitting an application. So if you're worried about things like your missus surname, then I'd spend the few days it will take to have her name changed before you submit the application. Your the one that has to sleep at night. And i agree, it does look better if she has already changed her surname.

Good luck Aussiestyle.

Cheers,

James.

Thanks Jamnjam and others.

Does it make a difference if you lodge you visa at the VFS center or at the Embassy?

I guess it wouldn't, but are there any advantages of lodging at either place?

Also, are the case officers who handel the cases Aussies or Thai's?

The VFS centre provides easier access for questions and they help out a lot more with the paperwork. However, they are just a third party and must hand on your application to an embassy case officer. Also the VHS is much more busier than the embassy.

If your totally confident that you've everything needed for a complete application then I'd go straight to the embassy and meet the case officer yourself. Remember you must book in at the embassy in advance. Make sure you have the medical test receipts. My wife's medical hadn't come but her twin boy's medical results had arrived. The receipt proved useful. A quick walk to the BNH hospital, and free lunch, and we found out that the hospital had internally messed up. Her results were waiting for the boy's results to be finished but those results had already been sent. The embassy these days is ghostly quiet.

If your not totally confident then the VFS centre will help you out to make sure you lodge a complete application.

Good luck!

By the way, we checked out a few translation businesses in the area. Most were charging 450 Baht for ID cards and were very unfriendly. 300 baht per document isn't bad (more for written statements).

Thats not the way it worked for us, our application was lodged in November, we were given an interview in March, the Visa was approved in one week and Wife was given untill November to enter Oz in the letter from embassy.

Bronco, when was the medical and police clearance done? If they were down around the time of application then yes the visa should have had an entry date as you say.

Thanks for that mate!

We just found out from VFS staff on the phone that the police check from the Thai HQ is done in English? Is this true? We were gonna wait for that before doing translations but hearing this we will just go ahead and start with the translations...........................

The police clearance certificate, which is done in English, takes up to 3 weeks. They told us a date to pick it up which was 3 weeks from the day my wife did the checks. The certificate was finished in just over a week. So if you're staying in Bangkok and want the Police certificate quickly then check in on them from time-to-time.

So, go ahead and get the bulk of your translations started. Any future documents can be translated quickly.

Jamnjam

aussiestyle

Photocopy these two pages onto one sheet.

I meant: Photocopy these two pages onto one sheet per person.

aussiestyle

We got our translations done at the bottom of the sky train steps in front of the Thai CC building. Nice guys and good rates. Forgot the name right now.

For the family book they need the front page which has the house description and the page for the applicant and any other dependants of the applicant. Photocopy these two pages onto one sheet. The translators will do all the rest (they included the info at the front of the book too). We ended up getting two pages translated per person for the house book.

Anyway, they have set prices per item. House books, ID cards, birth certificates are 300 baht per person. Take MM's advice and get it all done and more. Better before than later. We had a few documents that we had translated that were not needed by the embassy. But better to have more than less.

Going to the embassy directly is easy and quiet. Just book a meeting 3 weeks in advance.

Godluck

The application form asks what date you intend to arrive in Australia.

MM, are you sure about this? I know it's true for the TV but we've just done the SV application forms and there was no question about a planed date of arrival.

My apologies. I have mis-led you. I was thinking T/V and not S/V.

The dates of your intended arrival in Australia would need to be stipulated in your covering letters, including any plans to visit another country prior to the Embassy making a final decision on your application, and any time following the decision but before entering Australia.

During the interview, your partner should also ensure that these dates are related to your case officer so that she can record your intentions into her file.

MM, I asked our case officer today how visa entry dates are worked out. She said it is worked out from the 12 month expiry dates of the medical tests and police clearance certificate. So if you got the medical test done first, say on the 1/1/2007, and you submitted the application on 1/2/2007, and it took 4 months for the visa to be approved then you'd be given 7 months to enter Australia.

Also the internet form for an SV is very different from the printed out form. So maybe you are asked for an intended date of arrival on 40SP (internet). Not sure.

Jamnjam

I believe that you also need a 1229 form....consent to issue an Oz visa to a child under 18yo.

There seems to be an endless supply of surprises . It's hard to believe after months of study and reading and I never saw this form mentioned once. I checked out the immi website and sure enough there is this form 1229. We submitted our application today and the case officer said we had everything we needed.

We'll ring her up on Monday to ask her about this form. I really hope it won't be another 1,500km round train trip back to Bangkok again to get the natural father to sign more papers yet again. There seems to be one government gatekeeper after another along this long road to a migration visa.

Thanks for warning us gburn .