KhemaKhema

If this is a temporary ordination (sometimes also called a traditional ordination), you should be fine with your existing visa.

The duration of your existing visa must not end during your monkhood.

Usually everyone in Thailand is very supportive to ordination, immigration is most likely to be supportive/acceptive/turn a blind eye.

You should make your situation clear to your preceptor (Uppacayo) before ordination, go for a visit to his temple and have a friendly chat.

Most strict forest monastery will not accept a married applicant, however, one may go forth as a novice in that case.

Read all about it: https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0054.html

You must have a written allowance both of -your wife and -your parents to become a monk.

In case you are contemplating of staying on as a monk indefinitely, i would think twice.
You will not be able to get a Non-I Visa type R(eligious studies) as a married foreigner.

This is the same place as: https://papaemeditation.org/thailand/

It is running for quite a number of years already.

The place belongs to the Dhammakaya group.

At the time they received their titles both Luang Por Sumedho and the other senior monk you mentioned had been living in Thailand for a considerable time already, as far as i know, they both have been OFFERED citizenship.
LP Sumedho has moved to the U.K. now, i do not know whether he took the option.
LP Passano has moved back to the U.S.A. a long time ago, LP Amaro has never lived in Thailand for long, so maybe they did not receive an offer.

Both Luang Por Sumedho and the other senior monk you mentioned have recently be presented with new ecclesiastical titles (in case of LP Sumedho a very high one).
It seems that receiving a high ecclesiastical title comes with an offer of permanent residency.

Well done you, very good research you did in Bangkok !
And yes, from all i have heard, getting permanent residency for a foreign monastic is very difficult.
That Australian monks permanent residency is not sure too.
For your senior monks future, maybe a trip abroad every 5 years is the easiest option.
You did mention already, because of the high fee ELITE visa is out of the question.
The COVID Visa Amnesty should be no problem.
Hopefully towards the end of the year 2564 the Covid situation has changed and he can apply for a new visa from abroad.

The head monk of the province (เจ้าคณะจังหวัด) usually is in close contact with NOB and knows them well.
Applications that have his strong personal support will be contemplated quite different from those made by "unknown" monks.
Your abott should go there and have a chat with him.
To which Nikaya does your monastery belong to, Dhammyut (ธ) or Mahanikay (ม)?

I think i have to make this more clear:
Your senior monk has NOT " been in Thailand under the same visa for the last 25 years but interrupted and had to be renewed every 5 years.".
This is a very important point!
Once he left Thailand without a re-entry permit his visa was finished.
He then applied for a NEW visa outside of Thailand and has NOT renewed the old one outside of Thailand.
So in terms of immigration he is now in his "3rd extension of the last Non-Imm R issued".
Therefore he needs to bide his time until he can apply for permanent residency.
I remember you were planning to contact Chaeng Watthana, have you made inquirements into the PR process for monks yet?



Regarding your 5 vassa monk:
The NOB is not issueing letters of recommendation "arbitrarily".
If there is a compelling reason they will, if not, they won't.
My recommendation is for your abott to go see the head monk of the province (เจ้าคณะจังหวัด) and explain the situation to him.
The head monk of the province could then talk to NOB Chiang Mai and ask them to consider issueing a letter of recommendation based on the extraordinary circumstances during the international COVID situation.
If they still refuse, i would use the visa amnesty option as long as possible and then, once Thailands borders are open again, apply for a new visa from abroad.

yes, the information given to you by immigration is correct.
To extend the visa over its 5/10 times , you need to get the letter of recommendation of the สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนา.
To get the letter of recommendation, there need to be compelling reasons.

Please be aware, that your senior monk has NOT "been in Thailand consecutively for the past 25 years with Non-Imm R visa".
The meaning of "consecutive" is: Consecutive events, numbers, etc. follow one after another without an interruption.
Once the senior monk had left the country and applied for a new visa from abroad, there was an interruption in his visa process and things started anew.

yes, it is possible.
These decisions are made on a highly individual basis.
There is quite a number of foreign monastics who managed to extend their visas to more than what is usually granted.
Usually, there are compelling reasons, like (already mentioned) not having finished ones PALI studies yet, or, abbotship.
According to your information, your senior japanese monk seems to have done it many times already,
but now the officials for some reason seem to have put an end on it.

No, they are two completely different things.

-Bai Sutthi=Monks ID, and yes, it has your "Prawat (meaning history of your monks life) documented inside.
Ordination, Preceptor, where, when, your personal details and so on.

-the form "Prawat" for the SamnagNganPraPuttasasanaHaengChaat is much more elaborated and is only for asking for a monks visa.

Once you have been to SamnagNganPraPuttasasanaHaengChaat in Udon City together with your abott everything will become clear.

It is in the town hall north of ทุ่งศรีเมือง (Tung Sri Mueang) public park on the 5th floor .
ศาลา กลาง จังหวัด อุดรธานี ชั้น 5 ถ ต หมากแข้ง อ เมือง, อธิบดี ตำบลหมากแข้ง อำเภอเมืองอุดรธานี อุดรธานี 41000
Everything will be explained to your Ajahn in detail once you go there.
Usually open Mo-Fr 09:00 until 16:00.

Dear Agacitto,
in your first post, you mention that:
'I’d like to come to Thailand to ordain as a Buddhist monk ',
later on you mention that you are ordained already...
May i ask,
-in what lineage you have ordained (i.e. Mahayana, Theravada, Tibetian or other) and
-what kind of ordination you have received (pabbajja or upasampada) and
-when you have ordained.
Do you have a monk ID Card?
Depending on this information, i will be able to outline the process to apply for a Non-Immigrant Type R visa to you.
In the meantime, the following post may be interesting to you:
https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1192239-permanent-residency-or-citizenship-for-foreign-monastics-in-thailand

@ubonjoe:
it is technically correct, that there is no limit to the 1year extensions by IMMIGRATION.
As long as one has the necessary letter of recommendation by the Department of Religious Affairs, Immigration will be happy to give a 1year extension.
There is, however, a limit set by the Department of Religious Affairs:
Currently, it is:
5 years of visa for monks and novices from buddhist countries (4 extensions).
and
10 years of visa for monks and novices from non-buddhist countries (9 extensions).
There are exceptions of course.

-But as I said in previous post, the staff at National Office of Buddhism (Phutthamonthon office) said he DOESN'T have to leave Thailand even on his 5th year so long his Ajahn can write a letter to National Office of Buddhismcertifying that the 4 vassa monk is still studying Pali, a prerequisite for National Office of Buddhism in order for issuing a "letter of recommendation" which in turn will become necessary for Non-I R visa extension. Now I didn't know at the time I call them up that Samnak Phut's letter must be issued every year, not every 5 years so I'm no longer confident if they really understood my concern (that he might have to leave after 5 years) but I did stress 5th year extension over and over and they did say he doesn't have to leave on 5th year or any year for that matter so long he has a "letter of recommendation" that they're happy to issue provided his mentor/ajahn can certify he is still studying Dhamma or Pali (Pariyati Tham).

A: please see my advice, posted 19.11.2020 at 03:28 AM:
"It is perfectly correct that only Pali Studies would qualify for another SPECIAL extension after the regular 5 years of stay"
So, if he is still studying Pali and has not finished his studies yet, he should contact the same SamnagPhut where he has done his previous extensions for advice.

-Either way they have two other Japanese monks at the same monastery (four including 4 yrs and 24 years Venerable) and I don't know when the other two's extension at Chiang Mai immigration is up, but I'll tell them to go to National Office of Buddhism branch office in Chiang Mai at SalaGlaang and ask them directly when the next monk's annual extension is up.

A: There is no need to go to SamnagPhut. The dates of ones visa (and extensions due) are clearly visible in ones passport. And in ones visa-papers.
The SamnagPhut may be hard pressed to find this information in all their paperwork, while the monks can just look into their passports.
Usually one uses the same computer-forms every year, just changes the dates. An effort of 30 minutes once a year.

-Thanks for the link but aside from the question of who will host the 5th year monk while stranded outside Thailand there's a question of who will issue Non-I R visa for him if at all. Neither Malaysia nor Japan is not faring well in their fight to contain the pandemic and therefore neither of them is considered low-risk countries, making both Japanese and Malaysians or anyone residing in either of these countries ineligible even for Thailand's newly launched Special Tourist Visa (SVT).

A:
One always contacts the monastery one wants to go to beforehand.
If the monastery then agrees to take the monk up, they then will also be his supporters.
So monks do not become stranded somewhere.

-https://image.mfa.go.th/mfa/0/n3gTFT2TOE/listed_country_2018_2.pdf

A: I can not find Japan on this list, anyway, it just says that people from certain countries will have to apply at KL and wait a bit longer for ones visa, nothing more.

-But as you said, we still have three quarters of a year left to worry about and anything can happen by the time his 5th extension is up next July.
I can make a personal trip to Chaeng Watthana as soon as this week but is it really essential for 70 yrs old Venerable to come to Bangkok, bracing 12 hrs overnight trip on Morchit-bound bus just to make an inquiry? I have all his bio written in Thai with me. Either way, there's only 5 weeks left until this year's PR application will close and not only are we not ready for it or even sure if the Venerable is eligible for application under "special category" but he has already made up his mind to waive this year's application (provided he's eligible) and still undecided if he's willing to apply at all next year even if the immigration is willing to accept his application under special consideration. I guess partly because It's not his idea to begin with (my suggestion) and I only made PR suggestion last month when I visited his monastery for Kathina during which time he asked me to drive to CM immigration for his Non-I R extension, although I learned his Thai abbot has sought to apply Thai citizenship for him in the past, which I know he can't, not by bypassing PR unless he has a Thai spouse which of course he doesn't.

And is it really true PR application can only be accpeted in Bangkok and not CM or anywhere else?

A: please call them or, even better, take a trip to Chaeng Watthana and ask them.

And do you know who among many foreign monastics in Thailand is the one continuously in robe without ever leaving Thailand except for occasional home visit (e.g. continuously maintaining Non-IR visa extension)? You do know many western monks in Ajahn Chah's forest tradition have spent 30 or 40+ years in robe and some even beyond 50 but many such senior monks are often now serving as an abbot in branch monasteries in the west.

And did Ajahn Jayasaro even applied for (or asked for) a citizenship himself when he was granted one by HM the King last year?

A: It is common practice to offer citizenship to foreign monks once they have reached certain very high ecclesiastical ranks.

Now, two steps back, may i offer some reflections suffused with loving-kindness:
It seems you have very good intentions to help the foreign monastics in your monastery with their visa-issues, this is most praiseworthy.
At the moment ,you seem to be in an "action-mode", trying to give help where help may be needed, but maybe not so much or so urgently as you may think.
Also, through your lack of experience in these confusing matters, you may have to develop more patience and equanimity.
In practical terms, you could contact ChaengWatthana, try to get reliable information regarding permanent residency for monks, summarize it up on a document and then just pass it on to the monk quietly.
After that, i would recommend you to let go of the issue for now.
I am sure, when the situation requires it, the monks will happily contact you.

In both worlds
the merit-maker delights.
He delights at the thought,
'I've made merit.'
Having gone to a good destination,
he delights all the more.
Dhammapada verse 18

Heedfulness: the path to the Deathless.
Heedlessness: the path to death.
The heedful do not die.
The heedless are as if already dead.
Dhammapada verse 21

-His 3rd extension expired either June or July 30th this year and he's already on his 4th extension.
His Non-I R was issued in Thailand after his samanera ordination, not in Japan.
A:
Now things become a bit more clear.
If the 4 Vassa monk is on his 4th extension already (in his 5th year of stay on Non-I R), he will have to leave Thailand once his visa has run out.
As his visa is due in July 2021, frankly, i do not see much reason to start worrying now.
As mentioned before, Malaysia has some good forest monasteries (for example https://sasanarakkha.org), he could comfortably spend the vassa there and in November 2021 try to apply for a new Non-I R Visa either at KualaLumpur or at Penang.

-Monks know about Elite Card too but 500,000 Baht for just one monk is simply out of question for a forest monastery in remote mountainous region where the vast majority of supporting local lay community is ethnic Karen and Shan people (some stateless).
A:
This option was only mentioned for the sake of showing you all the possibilities there are.
If the Venerable 24 Vassa monk really really really has to stay in Thailand and can not get permanent residency, this may turn out to be the only option one day.

-And it really doesn't matter which country he leaves for after 5 years.
A:
Yes, it does not matter where he leaves to, anywhere he is able to survive as a bhikkhu will do.
Wherever he goes , if that country has a Thai embassy/consulate, there he can try to apply for a new visa.
Many monks have done this procedure already.

-AFAIK Non-I R is not one of those visas Thai diplomatic missions abroad will issue at the moment.
A:
Yes, but he does not need to leave at the moment. Only in July 2021. Apart from COVID, the visa situation is changing constantly too anyway.
Have a look through THAIVISA-Forum, you will see that things are very much Not Sure.

-I don't have an explanation for that other than to say he never faced the pandemic in 24 years as a Bhikkhu and this never became a matter of concern to him until recently because it's just a matter of leaving Thailand every 5 years in the past.
A:
So the 24 year monk should know all about leaving and re-entering, as he seems to have done it many times already. As he has just extended his visa for another year, he now has 1 year time to start looking for his options. See below.

-Besides, we thought we'd find out when I brought the venerable to CM immigration to renew his extension last month (24 yrs monk).
A:
As has been explained before: the crucial point is the "letter of recommendation" issued by the SamnagPhut.
It needs to be applied for every year, then together with all the other papers presented at immigration.
As the extension for the 4 Vassa monk is dependent on this "letter of recommendation" and SamnagPhut will not issue it after 5 years of stay for monks from buddhist countries, he then can not apply for a visa at immigration.
So Immigration can not process your visa request. And can not answer your questions too.
If that letter of recommendation has been done in the past at SamnagPhut Chiang Mai, then this is where you have to ask.
The process of requesting a "letter of recommendation" should be very clear to the Venerable 24 Vassa monk, he must have done it many times before.

-Also, I have a friend who was formerly a foreign monastic in Ajahn Chah's lineage for 20 years (10 of which was spent in Thailand) and I offered to help the Venerable by asking him to forward my inquiry to Wat Pah Nanachat where I know there is a resident lay volunteer who handles immigration matters for foreign monastics (so my former monk friend doesn't know much about the intricacies of visa application/extension).
A:
You are asking for advice on things that are going to happen July 2021. Be aware, all the answers, options and ideas given to you now may be obsolete by then.

-By the way, the Venerable seems to remember he had the National Office of Buddhism issued "letter of recommendation" to be submitted to immigration every year, not every 5 years. Is that really the case?
A:
Yes, that is the case, as explained before already. There is a certain set of paperwork needed every year, including a recent "letter of recommendation".

Now, how about taking a step back and try to return to the original subject:
" Permanent Residency or Citizenship for Foreign Monastics in Thailand "
this is something you can start looking into now by contacting Chaeng Watthana.
And again, a personal visit with the monk in question is highly recommended.
State-officials usually act much more responsible to a monks personal visit than to a casual phonecall.
After your visit you will then have a personal contact at Chaeng Watthana too, something that may turn out quite helpful in the future.

Yes, all this information acquired from Putthamonthon is correct.

But please, the information that you provide is not very precise.
You are talking about a "5th year extension".
There is crucial information missing in that case, that is:

-What is the exact date of the first Non-Immigrant R Visa of the monk in question?
(it may even have been issued abroad, in that case it is possibly a 3-month visa)

and therefore:

-what is the exact date of the first extension of that Non-Immigrant R Visa?

Knowing these dates we then can calculate the 5 years allowed to him. (they seem to treat Japan as a buddhist country).
If, as you say, he has 4 Vassa now, it is possible that he is only in his 4th year of stay, then he could extend for 1 more year just like before.
It is perfectly correct that only Pali Studies would qualify for another SPECIAL extension after the regular 5 years of stay , as the 3 levels of NakThamm can be completeted in 3 years. Pali studies take very long to complete.
As you say, there is still a lot of time until the extension is due, the COVID situation is likely to change anyway until then.

To make things more clear: it is not the สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ who is making him leave, they will just not issue a letter of recommendation to him anymore, which is a prerequisite for extending the visa at immigration.
So, he would then have to leave.
But,it is not mandatory to leave to ones homecountry, he could stay for a few months in a monastery in Malaysia for example (some good forest-monasteries around) and then apply for a brand new Non-I R Visa in Kuala Lumpur or Penang, and so restart the 5 years period after returning to Thailand.
Also, as you are going to extend the visa in Chiang Mai, then สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ in Chiang Mai (at 4th floor SalaGlaang) should be the source of information for you, and not Phutthamonthon.
These branches have the power to decide individually, so what you have been told in Phutthamonthon may not even apply to Chiang Mai.
This has been proven by experience to the astonishment of some foreign monks already.

A different idea could be to contemplate ELITE-Card.
Expensive, but maybe he has relatives who would like to sponsor him...
This could also be a solution for both monks.

With all respect, it strikes me as a bit odd that you have:
" a Japanese monk who speaks and writes excellent Thai and is in a leading position in the monastery to teach the sangha of both Thai and foreign monks at his monastery with 24 years in Thailand"
and he can not help his fellow countryman with his visa issues or contact Chaeng Watthana himself....knowledge may be just a phonecall away.
How has he managed to stay in Thailand that long? He should be GrandMaster of Visa by now...

Q: Does that mean foreign monastics DO NOT have to leave Thailand to reapply Non-Immigrant R visa any moree?

A: There are 2 things:
1-would be an extension (1year) of an already existing Non-I R Visa, this is done at your local Immigration office, no need to leave the country. Same procedure every year.
2-would be an application for a new Non-I R visa from outside of Thailand.
This means, you are outside of Thailand and do not have a valid visa anymore (and no Re-Entry Permit).
As i have mentioned before, not so easy anymore, but possible.
This will then be a 3-Month Non-I R Visa, it can be extended for 1 year in the usual way starting 45 days before it runs out.
Let's drop the term "reapplication, it may be a bit confusing.

Q:And if they still have to leave to reapply at overseas consulate, is the requirement waived during this time of pandemic and international travel restrictions? As you might know Non-Imm R is not one of those visas Thai consulates overseas will issue to foreign nationals at this time.

A: not that i am aware of. Returning to Thailand may be very difficult at the moment for monks.
As the monk in question has only 4 extensions yet, an extension inside the country should not be an issue.

Q:I'm a bit confused but it's not the National Office of Buddhism but the Ministry of Culture, Department of Religious Affairs that mandates foreign monastics leave Thailand every 5 years and reapply? สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ is National Office of Buddhism, not Department of Religious Affairs (Ministry of Culture). It's a ministry-independent government agency in Phutthamonthon.

A: They do not make them leave and reapply. Only leave. One may reapply then, the outcome is not sure. It varies from Embassy to Embassy. And Government to Government. And....

Q: The monk in question has been in Thailand for over 4 years. His visa is up for extension/reapplication next July so we still have time.

A: At the beginning of your post you have mentioned only 1 monk who has recently turned 70 years old and wants to apply for pemanent residency.
Now you do mention another one...?
May i ask, what is it with the 4 year monk?
He should be able to extend his visa without problems in Chiang Mai.

Q: Also when you said 4 or 9 extensions, do you mean that to be the maximum number of times Department of Religious Affairs allows foreign monks to stay in Thailand (max 20 years for monks from Buddhist countries such as Japan and 90 years for non-Buddhist countries?).

A: It means 5 years of stay for monks and novices from countries considered buddhist (that is 4x1 year extensions).
and
10 years of stay for monks and novices from countries considered non-buddhist (that is 9x1 year extensions).
Under which category Japan is treated, i can not say.
There is a list at the สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ available.

The Japanese monk (deputy abbot) in the same monastery (one the abbot is considering applying PR for) has been in Thailand as a monastic for 24 years now and I went to Chiang Mai Immigration with him last month for his latest extension.

However, I know other Japanese monk who's ordained at another forest monastery 32 years ago and can no longer apply for his extension and returned to Japan two years ago. He's still in robe, but practicing and teaching far from his home monastery and Sangha in a country where Theravada Buddhism has little and less foothold than in the west, not to mention there's little supporting lay community there albeit a Buddhist country. He can now visit his home monastery in Thailand only as a tourist.

A: It should be possible for him to get a Non I R Visa too.
However, as he is only visiting, a tourist visa or a visa exempt stamp is much less hassle.

May i ask you, where do you come in? Are you a lay supporter of the monastery?
For the permanent residency, in my opinion the best thing to do, would be to travel to Bangkok together with the monk in question and ask in person at Chaeng Watthana.
Ajahn Jayasaro (now Pra ThepPatcharaNanaMuni) has been granted citizenship through a royal grant from the king himself.
I am not sure whether Ajahn Kevali can help you, these cases of permanent residency are usually judged very individually at immigration.
The very few monks i know who managed to get a permanent residency, they all had to be very patient and enduring, even more so their lay caretakers.
So , again, consider a trip to Bangkok together with the Venerable and ask in person at
Chaeng Watthana.

Limitation of extensions is set by the Ministry of Religious Affairs สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ , not Immigration.
Currently, it is:
5 years of visa for monks and novices from buddhist countries (4 extensions).
and
10 years of visa for monks and novices from non-buddhist countries (9 extensions).

In the past it has been possible to reset the process by leaving the country (without Re-Entry permit)
and applying for a brand new visa from abroad.
The process for applying for a visa abroad for foreign monastics has recently changed, embassies and consulates abroad are no longer able to issue a Non-Immigrant R visa on their own, they now need an ok from Thailand. that means, ones future home monastery in Thailand has to start the process here.
It is quite similar to the process of applying for an extension inside the country, ie, getting the signatures from the DjauKanaTambol, Djau KanaAmphoe, DjauKanaDjangwat (form: Prawat ประวัติ) and then asking for a letter of recommendation at the Ministry of Religious Affairs (in Chiang Mai 4th floor SalaGlaangDjangwat), etc.
How long is your japanese monk now here for already?

As for your original question, Chaeng Watthana is the right place to ask.