La Quenta

On 8/13/2022 at 7:40 AM, rahil627 said:

i didn't read this entire thread, but i find it interesting, as an expat normally living in Taiwan, but got stuck in Thailand during covid.

 

the way i see it is: there's two groups of people:

 

there's a group of people that just want to F off, as in, retire, just want to live in a cheap place, likely with little to no desire to cooperate toward making a better civilization. SE Asia (except Vietnam) fits this well, but so do many less developed places around the world. You will live like any other villager there, and maybe their governments will allow it, or maybe not. (in Thailand, these are often retired Englanders, Russians with mafia money, or people from some other sun-less cold places: many on these very forums)

 

then there's a group of people that actually want to live with the culture, maybe even love the culture, cooperate, do some good deeds, create organizations, or add value in some way. East Asia fits this well, but so do most places in the world, developed or not. Who doesn't want this sort of person in their group?

 

Thai culture is nothing like Taiwanese-Chinese culture (much closer to one of Taiwan's indigenous tribes though), and i imagine Vietnamese culture is also nothing like Thai culture. I'll know soon once i go, but even just judging from my past Vietnamese friends 'n co-workers, especially in programming companies, they're beasts (i mean that in a good way!). With ant-like organization and productivity, it's just a matter of time for them to rise up. History was not kind, but they can probably be near self-sufficient. Tourisi

 

it sucks i can't get a long-term visa, but how can one blame them for actually cleaning up the travel agency visa black market?? the covid pandemic added a ton of new long-term expats on top of a ton of past long-term expats... i think post-covid (endemic) is the perfect time to clean up the bad ones, all of them: new and old... i just hope the bureaucratic replacement isn't worse than corrupt immigration 'n agencies...

 

it sucks for the good-hearted long-term expats there being kicked out; I hope they'll find some way to hang on (fake marriage?)! this sounds like the moment expats cease to exist. you must now choose to be categorized as either a tourist or a migrant worker or something special. most developed countries are like this, so, def can't be mad at that. assimilate or get out.

 

it sounds more like sincere progress than xenophobia to me.

 

all i know is i could never live in Thailand again! ahhhhhhh. i need organization!!

Interesting post, thanks. 

Yes, Vietnamese culture is quite different to Thai culture. The majority of it's historical influences have been from China (whereas Thailands have been from India), although it is also influenced in the deep south by Cambodia (which was the former 'Lower Angkor' of the Angkor kingdom) and Cham culture also has a very minor influence in some parts. 

There is an ethos to work in Vietnam that is very much Sino in approach, and educational attainment is highly valued. Generally, Thai folk are more open and easier to get to know. Vietnamese folk are very welcoming in general, but it can take a long time to get to know them.

Thai people seem a bit more carefree almost not worrying at all about tomorrow with very little future planning. Whereas although Vietnamese aren't the best future planners in the world they seem to be very cognisant of it and are better at it.

15 hours ago, madmen said:

They are no longer issuing long stay  visas for foreigners What is it you don't  understand about xenophobia? 

 

Communists with undesirable and indisputable shocking human rights record 

 

Good luck if you are unfortunate enough to end up in the legal system with a false accusation. 

 

To bad if you own property their say goodbye to that with no way to stay 

 

When are you leaving.? Oh wait of course you can't because you have a pet cat. 

 

No, they are issuing long stay Visas it you obtain a work permit. It's just that work permits are not obtainable it you are retired or a digital nomad because you need a sponsor company. That isn't xenophobia. It's essentially a change in the migration/employment law. 

The Thai legal system and human rights record is no better. If poor human rights records bother you, then SE Asia is probably not the place for you. It's something you have to accept if you are going to live here. 

Also, if you are a foreigner buying property in Thailand or Vietnam (or most of SE Asia), you probably need your head read. Way too much risk to be ploughing your hard earned money into. I personally keep most of my money offshore, and so should you until local systems can give you confidence and security . Property wise, Singapore or Malaysia are the only worthwhile options with solid consumer protections to give peace of mind. Forget about anything else, not worth it. 

I'm not leaving - I have a work permit and i'm a professional. Plus I love the country. Why would I leave?

29 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 

Source please.

 

You're basically saying that they are requesting people who have illegally stayed to leave?

 

And as for needing an exit visa? Sounds BS to me,you just leave when your current entry visa expires.

 

Similar BS has been posted in this thread.

 

 

Youtube/Facebook/Twitter/Reddit, news sources like VNExpress International. Many sources verify it. 

Why are you calling it BS? I've been working professionally in VN for over half a decade. If you are outside of VN and calling it BS, the onus is on you to explain your position. 

Yes, I can assure you 15 day exit Visas do exist in Vietnam, however they are only enacted when immigration have decided not to renew your existing visa. 

To clarify, they are requesting the majority of those on an existing business visa or tourist visa (which are the only two types you can get unless you have a TRC) must leave upon being presented for renewal. Now as I said, this is applying to people who are working & not working, legal and illegal.

As the weeks have passed, it has become evident that factors including your country of origin, and where you entered Vietnam (even if this was before Covid) can also be factors in your risk for deportation. 

Your take-away from this is that living in Vietnam as a retiree, digital nomad or long-term traveller is until further notice totally unviable. 

7 hours ago, Why Me said:

VN is a poor man's Thailand. Food and accommodation is cheaper but edges harder and people more aggressive. Made a few week-long business trips a year to HCM and Hanoi (from Bkk) for several years till 2016. Bkk is a lot safer, especially at night, and classier and more diverse in terms of places to go out to, clubs, restaurants bars, shops, entertainment venues et al.

 

But I did like that the few expats I met in VN were mostly young go-getter types trying to set up shop in an up and coming country. Very different vibe from the farang oldie crowd ubiquitous here.

And the VN youth, the few I interacted with at least, all seemed particularly enamored of Singapore, more so than the US where I am from, which kind of told me where their head space was.

 

VN sees a future for itself as a Singapore-style Asian business/enterprise hub rather than a Thai-style tourist mecca. In fact, their repeat tourism numbers - percentage of tourists coming back - were dismal compared to Thailand when I last checked so hospitality/service clearly is not their forte, no matter scenic attractions.

 

But they know what their strength is which probably explains visa-issuing preferences. They want neither rickety retirees nor indigent backpackers. Investors and entrepreneurs are who they are after.

The 'poor mans' cliche makes little sense. Both countries are incredibly different. If that is the way you view it, then I think it betrays your lack of intellectualism or cultural curiosity. 

To address a few of your issues breifly

- LIke Thailand, Vietnam has upmarket nightclubs, classy restaurants, and a diverse range of bars and restaurants - every cuisine is in VN if you want it in the major cities. 

- VN aren't specifically enamoured with Singapore. There is a lot of admiration for South Korea and Japan, European countries, as well as the US believe it or not. 

- correct on the expat crowd in terms of demographic, which tends to have a younger average age, although there are still a number of older ones about too. Even some war vets. Also, Vietnam has always seemed to have many more mainland European and American expats, but Thailand has more British expats. 

26 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

Laughable that Thailand is trying to target rich ex-pats and tourists. Rich people want luxury, not stinking khlongs, rodents in the streets at night, blatant prostitution, beaches strewn with trash and tuk-tuk drivers passed out drunk on the pavements.

 

They'd go to places like Antigua, Singapore, Tokyo and Monaco.

 

If the Thais had any sense, they'd focus on the very people who made Thailand popular in the first place, i.e. budget travelers, backpackers, gap-year students and single men. You can't just turn a third-world country into a destination for the jet-setting elite with a few press releases. Pure insanity.

 

Thailand was a great place to holiday for Westerners because it had great weather, good food, amazing beaches and the icing on the cake was that it was cheap. Once it's no longer cheap, then there are many other places in the world that can offer more for less. They're shooting themselves in the foot, but they probably don't even know that they're holding a gun. They just don't have a clue.

 

If I was a multi-millionaire ex-pat, no way in hell would I be in Thailand. I would be living in the Bahamas in a super-luxury apartment and wouldn't give Thailand a second thought. No well-heeled and successful business person would choose Thailand, because you can get better elsewhere.

That is an interesting point. In fact, it aligns a bit with Vietnam who recently abolished most of the investor Visa options unless you bring in $130,000k minimum to spend. 

There is certainly a delusion both Governments have that multi-millionaires will plunge in en masse. But the fact is, there is a hell of a lot of competition, and multi-millionaires don't grow on trees. 

I appreciate the need for Vietnam to tighten up its visa rules...long overdue.

The issue is:

1. no communication - everyone is in the dark

2. no warning with very short time to get out - at a time where lockdowns are running rampant and flights are few. 

3. systemic corruption within Immi departments that permitted the bending of visa rules for so long that even BIG business took it as a given. 

4. The broken agent system. 

5. The madness of not offering some form of long term Visa for self-funded retirees with health insurance. It's free money for the taking. 

6. The systemic difficulties in getting a simple work permit if you qualify for one.

17 minutes ago, madmen said:

It was always sloppy seconds to Thailand. Feel sorry for the expats 

On the contrary, day to day life is superior to Thailand imo. It's far more eastern, much more of an adventure than Thailand. It's got that French feel in the food, coffee and architecture than Thailand doesnt have. The street life is far more interesting and engrossing. The mountains and beaches are much better than Thailand, especially in Central and North. 

Up until this year, the Government has very much been 'live and let live' when it comes to foreigners. You never see the overt Racism as you do on occasion in Thailand. 

I love Thailand by the way and have lived there too. It's just a personal opinion that Vietnam is much more interesting and beautiful. 

Quote

Stay away from communism and Islam and no problems. 

Thats not a very intellectual argument. 

Well.....it's all happening in Vietnam. 

For those not informed, since approx 1st April, Vietnam started rejecting the vast majority of rolling business visas and a very large number of tourist visas. People who are trying to do new work permits to change jobs or get new jobs are ALSO being rejected.

The vast majority of those whose visa has been 'flagged' are being asked to leave the country within 15 days on an exit visa (which costs additional fees). Its basically a mass deportation. The deportees largely consist of retirees, digital nomads, workers whose workplace 1. improperly processed work permits or 2. didnt do it at all, or 3. used a dodgy agent to process (all unbelieveably common).

It is quite possible that once all is said and done, Vietnam will lose 75% of foreigners living in situ by around August/September this year. Hundreds have already left (no choice really) just in the past few weeks alone. 

There remains no official Government announcement aside from "Those who entered Vietnam - specifically those after March 2020 - on a tourist visa have been granted an extra month stay"  Aside from that, no official notice at all.  Certainly no clarification for those who were in country before March 2020. It was just a decision made and executed, except no one is entirely clear what is going on...even the agents. 

What does this mean? The takeaway is, for the next couple years (or more), it is quite likely that Vietnam will be totally out of the question for anyone who doesn't fit the following 2 criteria.

1. A tourist staying 30 days or less

2.An expert worker, with a minimum of a Bachelor Degree, 3 years+ verified experience in the field for the job in question outside of Vietnam (that can be formally verified).

In short, it has become very very very expat unfriendly in a very short space of time.