deejai33

Israel should recognize the ICC. By not doing it, they look like they have war crimes to hide. Hamas too should allow full access for ICC investigators.

Its good to be discussing a full solution to this 100+ years conflict. I disagree with you that a zero-state solution for Palestinians will be the outcome, when the Palestinians die out or leave their lands. More opimistically, can I offer this at first sight overly optimistic 2 state option: 1. Palestinians realize they won't get the entire land of Palestine back. They won't win against Israel which has unswerving support from USA. 2 aircraft carriers, surely makes that clear. 2. Israel needs to come clean about the history of Zionism since 1895 and apologize. Just as countries such as Holland are now apologizing and accepting their role and immoral actions in creating colonies, slavery. Say sorry, accept it waa wrong to push native population out of lands they colonised. Israel can say sorry. Forgive us. But we are in Israel now, and prospering. Israel can then offer to help make a viable palestinian state with genuinely fair share of the territory. And offer to help palestinians build it and prosper. Palestinians can see this as an honest attempt to move on. Agree to work for a fair 2 state solution. How about that for a happy ending ! I should become a statesman. Both sides giving up strongly felt beliefs and animosity for a peaceful future.

I think I've seen mr Morch disapprove of one claim of anti-semitism too. Good. To claim someone is anti-semitic is a poor tactic unless its clearly true. Its possible to dislike what the Israeli state does and not be anti-semitic. And disliking what the Israeli state does, does not make you a hamas apologist. We all understand this surely ?

I agree with you about a number of contributors here who act as you describe. And they make many, many one-line posts adding little of value. I keep getting called a troll and accused of hiding my beliefs. Of writing waffle. I think I make honest, relevant posts. Others get accused of being anti-semitic. I don't see that, few people would make an obviously anti-semitic post. Also they'll accuse anyone saying something pro-palestinian of being a hamas supporter. And replying to reasonable questions with gruesome details of the attrocities committed by hamas. But not answering the question. I've got used to it now. Become more thick-skinned. Interesting to see how this forum operates and how some try to dominate it with one-liners. The forum does have useful links to articles, reports. Good to see peoples concern. Just have to filter out the not so useful one-liners.

Figures from recent posts say hamas has approx 20,000-45,000 armed militants in Gaza. Termed the Al-quassam brigades. Some other smaller groups too. For simple maths, that's 50,000 out of gazan population of 2m. 2.5%. 2.5% of the people being bombed in Gaza are Hamas militants. 97.5% are ordinary civilians. I'd call that a very small percentage. Minimal. I did not attempt to minimize hamas, as its numbers are minimal already. I understand the problem for Israel wanting to eliminate only the 2.5% of gazans. Its a big problem. How to you kill just that 2.5% when 97.5% are civilians. In my view, the decision bomb and invade gaza to try to kill a selected 2.5% is a bad decision, since many civilians will be killed in the process.

I've seen the 45% figure about destruction of structures in Gaza. I've not seen the 5% figure. Seems to be a figure that can be estimated from ariel photos, satellite images. Surely the US and Israel have a very good idea of how much of the structure has been destroyed by bombs, (or errant hamas rockets). Is a figure published by the US ?

That's quite a detailed and extensive list. Each needs further investigation ofcourse. Hamas crimes need to be listed and investigated too. The Guardian has an article about the ICC and other interested parties on this matter. Israel seems to not recognise the ICC and is forbidding them access to the palestinian territories. Seems odd to do that. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/have-war-crimes-been-committed-in-israel-and-gaza-and-what-international-laws-apply

As you say both US and Hamas figures might be suspect. Need some well-respected organisations to provide figures. As workaround, take hamas figures as top of range, and US, or Israeli, figures as bottom. Although neither US or Israel seem to have given their estimates of palestinian deaths. Odd as Israel is on the scene and dropping the bombs. Has drone and satellite images, informers, intercepts calls. Surely israel must have figures on palestinian deaths. Why do they not publish them ? Their aim is to kill hamas operatives, surely they must keep track of deaths to know if they are succeeding ?

Ok, correct, surely there's an international law against attrocities like Hamas did. But his post listed 6 or 7 points. You're reply seems minimal. Even the one point you chose to reply too is complex and the list of International laws violated by both sides is long. However you focus on oct 7th violations. You need to fully read, take in, understand what the poster is saying. Blindly trotting out something about oct 7th that has been said many times over is not progressing the discussion. My view only, ofcourse. The poster addressed many of the main issues that need addressing for peace to emerge. Treat him with respect.

Paywall article. Best not to link to these in my view. Can maybe summarize it for us ?

I agree. I don't want to sign up for websites. Maybe they can cut and paste most relevant text, if thats allowed.

Wikipedia backs up your figures: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) In 1800 it says there were 7,000 jews in Palestine. 22,000 christians and 246,000 muslims. Tiny percentage of jews. The Zionist movement changed that from 1890 onwards. You say its pedantic, not relevant to this era. But I think a case canbe made that the Zionist movement is the main root cause of todays issues. A powerful, well resourced group of european and US jews chose to come to Palestine in very large numbers. The native, indigenous population started to resist. And it continues today. Its colonialism, and the natives are resisting ofcourse. Has quite a lot of appeal as an explanation ? Yes/no ?

I note that the article goes to some effort to say that its recent figures are from the Gazan health authority, which hamas administrators control. They are careful to say this in light of questioning of those figures. Other organisations have said they've checked hamas figures in the past and seen few errors. But, you can see the issues with getting figures accurately at this point. Mr Biden drew attention to this issue a week or more ago. Presumably he then asked his intelligence staff to make their own estimates. Has anyone seen the US's figures for casualties of gazan population ? Seems like the US has had time to research it. I see photos of flattened buidlings in gaza, whole zones flattened. Maybe no one died. But seems likely a lot did die. But OK, let get reliable figures.

Yes, I think that all of us on here can agree with that view. Taking civilian hostages is straightforwardly bad, and a poor tactic. A bit like airplane hi-jacking of 70's/80's. Anyone see more info on claims I saw a few days ago that 50 hostages have died ? Have their bodies been found, names given out ?

Wow. Interesting to know there's religious figures who think like this. Both father and son. Just one quote from the article: "In Gaza, the entire populace is responsible because they do nothing to stop the firing of Kassam rockets. " Israelis are very keen to see the entire gazan population as responsible for the action of a minority of armed militants. Children, babies, women, old women, old men. Approx 2m people. Babies, women, old men are not going to be able to stop young armed men who fire rockets. Israelis know that ofcourse. They know they are in a weak moral position. They try and gain moral justification for the deaths of gazan civilians but fail.

Thanks, 500 pages is a lot ! And its 15+ years old. Seems to have been well received aswell as criticised, perhaps by that lobby. Wikipedia has article on it and google books has sample pages https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

I think you are correct. Based solely on this thread, Mr. Trump implied that research should be carried out to see if disinfectant could be used to cure covid by some mechanism. This is apparently what he said, see previous posts in thread: "Then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me.” He's definetly not saying inject Lysol as it will clean your lungs. But he is suggesting researching this. But probably medics were well aware that disinfectants killed germs. Mr Trump was not saying anything novel, useful. Medics probably dismissed his suggestion, maybe informed him of that. My view. A bit odd that science has not come up with a full consensus on what cures for covid. 3+ years, surely they have good data by now.

OK. I was surprised to see it, thought surely it was fake.

I do not think it was the trigger for Hamas's attrocities. On it's own, the map does not justify Hamas's actions. Ofcourse not. I posted the map as I first found it on the Ynet news site, refered to by Mr Morch. I thought it must be 'fake news', not real, but later I found it was not disputed and is actually what the Israeli PM showed the UN. However if the map indicates the israeli governments intention to never have a Palestinian state, or never to have equal rights for Palestinians within a single state, then I can see it would make Palestinians angry. I'm focussed on learning about the Palestinian-Israel conflict. And on on positive ways forward. The israeli PM, Hamas, Palestinian PA leader, USA stance, all seem to be a problem, a hurdle to a viable peace. I'm trying to appreciate what all sides of the conflict see. This conflict has gone on all of my life.

I can believe there are people who have maps that do not acknowledge Israel as a country. As you say, Hamas surely and others. But Israel is a member of United Nation, is treated as a nation by many countries. OK. Good. Similarly Palestine is a country, recognized by 139 UN members (wikipedia: palestine). The israeli PM should have shown a map with Palestine on it too. If palestine does not have a state, where do 7m+ palestinians go ?

The Jerusalem Post has more details. Seems Israeli PM was trying to show which countries have made a peace agreement with Israel. But the map provoked anger as Palestinian territories were not shown. Understandable that would be inflammatory. https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189

Interesting you talk recently about 'The Greater Israel' project. I presume you refer to the state of Israel annexing all of the lands the Palestinians currently have. No two state solution. One Israeli state only, zero palestinian state. The zero state solution. In reference to this I saw this article on the YnetNews site. I was pointed there by Mr. Morch in relation to Israels war plan. He must think the site is a reliable source. I scrolled down to the next article and found the map with no Palestine in it. Could the article be 'fake news', not accurate. Or did israel's PM really show that map at the UN ? https://www.ynetnews.com/article/b1oibyxgt?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=internal

Yes, I am guessing and googling at same time. Lots to find out. Lets hope some non-hamas regime arises after Israels offensive.

As you say Hamas should have used its period of rule in Gaza to reduce its reliance on Israeli water, electricity and food supplies. My guess, with no evidence, is that Hamas would have aimed to do that. But didn't succeed much. I think gaza has 1 major electric generating plant, and 1 major water desalination plant. It seems a small area, with little scope for growing crops. I don't know how its economy worked, perhaps it just relies on imported goods. And foreign aid. Probably Israel placed significant restrictions on what could be imported. Did the Israelis allow a fishing industry ? (Article below says 4,000 fishermen in gaza, operate under restrictions). Lots I do not know about life in gaza, but doubt it was prosperous. https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2023/0908/Border-closures-threaten-to-sink-Palestinian-fishing-industry

OK. Someone responded to my post about Israel cutting off essentials of life to Gaza by saying that: the Palestinian civilians should go and ask Hamas, or Jordan, for the essentials of life. My reply was that these other groups do not have enough essentials to provide for 2m people. And essential supplies are being curtailed anyway. It needs Israel to re-open essential supply routes for 2m people. The 'Queen of Jordan' came to mind as she recently made a demand for life's essentials (water, food etc) to be restored by Israel. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/24/middleeast/queen-rania-jordan-amanpour-interview-intl/index.html