tfa1957

The Chiang Rai branch of our family wishes everyone a Merry Christmas, and a safe, healthy, and happy coming New Year.

I appreciate the advice that you provided, and everything went smoothly. The folks at the embassy in Vientiane were polite and official in a respectful manner and the process was straight forward, although we did have to photocopy off more document than we anticipated, but it all made sense, and my wife and 2 children all got their Non "O" the next afternoon, and the bonus was that we had enough time to see the bigger sites for the city. I have to say, the contrast from one side of the border to the other is fairly dramatic. Vientiane has a small town feel to it, and it is clear that the wealth factor is different than back here in Thailand, but, the people are just as nice, helpful and kind as they are here. So, all in all, with the help of some good folks here, everything went great, and I just wanted to take a moment to express my gratitude.

We will be leaving for Vientiane next week, and my 43 year old Filipina wife and two children, ages 13 and 16 will be applying for a non o at the Thai Embassy. We have a verified (from Philippine Embassy in Bangkok) marriage certificate, as well as birth certificates for the children. My question is, will my wife or step children have any difficulty in getting a non o? We opted for Vientiane for a couple of different reasons, and we do not mind a long line and are not in any big hurry, so all we are concerned about are them getting their non o and making our way back home. Because they will be going in for a non o, can I hazard a guess that they will not need verification of a plane ticket out of Thailand now? If there is anything else I need to be aware of, any help will be sincerely appreciate,, and not forgotten this time, unlike my mess up last time.

Joe, your correct in that you didn't give me incorrect info, and your info seems correct. As Time went by and upon my wife's return from the Philippines, we did as they stated in the immigration office, as the way they explained, it seemed appropriate. So, as it is, we will need to go outside the country and get this done.

My wife, step children, and I went to Bangkok last week, as instructed by the Immigration department in Chiang Rai. I, am a U.S. citizen holding a non o retirement, and my wife, and children, who hold Philippine passports went to Bangkok in order to have them put under my non o retirement as dependents. First, this was a question I posed on here a few months ago as to how to go about getting my family, from the Philippines as dependent status, and we got the same answer as what the immigration department in Chiang Rai stated, which was, that we needed to go to the Immigration Department in Bangkok to process the change from tourist visa to dependent status. As it turns out, both were wrong. We, unfortunately, had no success in Bangkok. I don't blame anyone on here, nor at immigration in Chiang Rai. In fact, the immigration office in Chiang Rai are outstanding people, who always try to be helpful in anyway possible. I wish I could say there was a simple misunderstanding, however, we also checked at the immigration office in Mae Sai and was given the same information, and we had a Thai lady with us to make sure there were no misunderstandings. So, basically, this note is a warning that despite peoples experience with these issues, there can be mistakes along the way. What we apparently have to do is go out of the country to say Laos, or back to the Philippines to process the Visa paperwork, rather than in country. I don't want to get into semantics of what the proper terms with the Non O, the Retirement Visa, or anything like that, because that isn't the issue. Our hope is that when we go out of the country to process the paper work at a Thai Embassy or Consulate, is that this will not be a wasted trip. If there is anyone on here who has gone through this personally, and can give accurate advice with how they accomplished getting their Philippine family placed as dependents, and they are retired U.S. citizens, then we would sincerely like to get your feedback, and advice, but only if you have personally gone through this process. We are not wanting to make anymore needless trips, especially out of country if we can help it, as we worry about them getting a 3rd tourist Visa and repercussions from getting continuous tourist Visa's for the family.

I'm sorry for the confusion, but yes, I have the 90 day Non O, and as I stated, earlier, and thought I made it clear, I said the part 2 because basically there are 3 parts to getting a Non O year Visa.....sorry for any confusion, but I think Joe understood what I had meant. Unless, I am misunderstanding and this extension for 90 days is not called a 90 day Non O Visa?? See, this is why I came here, for clarification. I pretty much used the immigration officers verbal terms of this being a 3 part process....First an extension of my tourist Visa, and apply for Non O, and then get the 90 day extension (90 Day Non O??), and then go back anytime after 60 or so days to apply for a year visa Non o-Retirement....right??

My wife's tourist Visa extension is up on the 21st of July, this month....and I think the idea of having her get a 15 day extension in Mae Sai will work for her as then, it will be close enough to her conference date in Manila and she just has to leave a little earlier than planned is all. So, she should be able to get her Non O dependent Visa matching my dates from the Thai Embassy in Manila. It seems a bit odd as to how they require things here, but I'm sure it could be much worse, and probably, in some countries it is much worse. So, we will just go through these steps as best we can, and continue to appreciate this help that you folks have and are given.

Tom

Thank you very much Joe, and I understand now. I appreciate the experience your sharing, and the help plus the time you have saved us. So, we will just have them go to the Laos capitol or Cambodian one, whichever is less expensive and safest for travel from where we are up north.

lopburi3, I did get my Non O 90 stay, and no, I did not go to Bangkok for it. I was able to apply at my immigration office, here in Chiang Rai, and they (immigration in Chiang Rai) then forwarded my papers to Mae Sai. A couple of weeks was all it took to complete this. I called it a second stage Visa, meaning I still have the 3rd stage of the process to complete, which is the Non O for the year. I did this for retirement also, as I meet the conditions of the monthly income. So, as I mentioned to Joe, my wife and children will take a trip to their consulate (Philippine) in either Laos or Cambodia with the paperwork. I really do think it was just a miscommunication at immigraion as to what my wife and children needed, which is basically why I asked for input here.

Thank you guys very much for your help

Tom

My wife and children's extension runs out on the 21st of July, this month. The issue is, I have a U.S. passport, and am in the process of converting to a Non O, and with my wife, and children, who have Philippine passports, I need them under mine because of the income issue with Non O Visa. The Chiang Rai office states it can only be accomplished in the Bangkok Immigration office. Are you saying the office is giving incorrect information, or is it possibly me who has stated this all incorrectly? The reason I say that is because the folks at our Immigration Office seem very good at their jobs and very helpful with explaining as best they can under the circumstances (i.e., language barrier, but not terribly so). After they understood (Immigration in Chiang Rai) that my wife and I have a valid marriage certificate is when they said Bangkok is the correct thing to do. I think the issue of her leaving is no longer an issue because we read that, as long as we notify Immigration that she is leaving the country and returning a week later, that, the process does not have to start all over for her, to get the proper Visa, under my retirement income. If she tries for her Non O in Manila or any consulate, say Laos or Cambodia, I think I would have to go with her and the kids because the retirement income is under my name. Correct? So, Bangkok may seem right for this, but, I just wanted feedback to be sure. As for me going to Manila or anywhere right now, I have no desire for that as I'm needed at our home for other reasons. I have my step 2 extension that lasts the 3 months, and you are correct in that I can go in and apply within the last 30 days, but, I have no need to really do that. I appreciate that information though because each country is different in this respect and I'm glad to have your input on this.

what it sounds like your saying, that worries me is that, if you are correct, in that they can't get an extension under me, then I will have to go with them to a consulate out of the country, which is a shame. I have not been to Mae Sai Immigration, but, would you reccommend that we go talk with them to get better clarification? Miscommunication can be easy here, and might be the case with our office here, meaning, I might not have been clear enough with the immigration officials as to what we need for my family, and doesn't reflect on them in any way, so I'll take responsibility if that is the case, but with Mae Sai only being a short drive away, it seems it might be better for us, what do you think? Or would we have the same communication issues?

Hi Folks,

I'm one of these people who seek out information before leaping, but, I didn't do as good as I should have perhaps. Here is my scenario....I am in the process of applying for my Non O Visa (Retirement), and I have gone now, from the extended Visitor Visa to the Non O but have to report in 3 months to officially apply for the Non O....sounds very confusing....but, the important thing is, I need to stay here for this 3 month period, and then when I apply and am granted my offical Non O Visa with retirement...the terminology of this isn't what is important....but, anyway, I stay until I apply and receive my Non O.....now, I'm an American, an my wife and children are from the Philippines with Philippine passports. My wife needs to leave for a conference for 15 August, and she is presently under the last month of her 3 month Visitor Visa. We were told at the office in Chiang Rai that we need to go to Bangkok Immigration because of her and the children's passports. If we do this, and she gets a similar Visa, then she is not be able to attend her conference in Manila, Philippines. So, my question is, does my wife and children take a trip to say, Laos, to the Philippine Embassy and get another Visitor Visa so that they will be able to leave for the conference in August, or is there something we are over looking? Actually, are they even able to get a new Visitor Visa anymore if they fly out to the Laos capital and return? Any suggestions on how to proceed so that she can attend her conference, with the children in Manila, in August, and then apply for a Non O visa under me when she returns, any ideas that are applicable to our situation would be greatly appreciated.

Tom

Yesterday, we had a very brief but violent storm that uprooted a tree and fell across my neighbors wall that surrounds his home. When we went over to survey the tree, we saw that the wind had pulled the tree up and left a hole in the ground that was close to a couple of feet deep. We had some other damages around the neighborhood as well with a few trees down and, of course, electric down for a few hours. Fortunately, no injuries, which is always more important than home damages.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Very mature, now you should behave shouldn't you? I thought it was at an end,or doesyour little group need a token to bang around a bit more?

In stead of insulting the members of the Chiang Rai Forum Thomas should see that the October edition of the Chiang Rai Magazine comes out.

For your information: It is the 4th of November already!

But it would be even better if Thomas would go back to Pattaya to sell second hand cars.

Limbo

Thank you Marty, your absolutely right, I was way off base a and inappropriate.

Mr. Austin..

I did not reply to your original post at all. In your first post you stated "this would be very helpful for us making our plans for moving to Chiang Rai". This statement led everyone to believe you had been to the North at some point, but while reading through this one I realized that you had little idea about Chiang Rai and probably Thailand in general.

Reading through your list a couple of things jumped out at me.

1:- You wanted to buy products from overseas

2:- you had little or no local knowledge and you didn't ask for any. Where are the local markets? etc.

There are some things that are very costly on that list and probably few people here would buy them except for special occasions- cheddar, swiss, Parmesan cheeses - halibut and haddock.

There are also things that you can find in any market in Thailand - Basil - a chicken - Vegetables - Herbs - fresh fish

BUT.. There are some things that make me laugh so hard I could pee myself - yellow bananas (if you want green ones you have to grow your own) - strawberries ( you obviously have not driven from CR to Mai Sai it's 50KM of strawberry fields and stalls)

Not to be hard on you but you are doing your homework in the wrong place you should be doing it on the ground where you plan to move AND before you move. The people on this board are a tight group but they are also very helpful and most know each other personally. They are not a closed group as you have suggested. They do however have other things to do than drive across town to look up your grocery and TP prices.

If you want to live exactly the way you live, wherever you live, and not adapt to a foreign culture, any foreign culture, you may as well stay where you are as you probably won't be happy here or elsewhere. From what I have seen the people on this board adapt to Thailand. they do not expect Thailand to adapt to them.

Thank you for proving my point. A Troll? I did start to open a site on yahoo, and promote it and then realized I wasn't supposed to do that, and apologized on the forum for that, so yes, please read my past posts. You folks lash out because I asked a serious question for the forum and I proved that many of you just like to mess with people instead of being helpful. If the truth hurts then so be it. I'll take my responsibility, but have no doubt you and several others will just lash out because of your gang mentality. So it's best for me to not respond anymore after this post and get sucked into this section of the forums' oddities. The good thing is that someone that doesn't live in Chiang Rai was helpful, so the secret is, ask people about Chiang Rai from those that live in Chiang Mai. So there ya go, be proud of your behavior and move on to your next victim, and I'll be glad that not all of us are like you few in Chiang Rai. This community is pleasant but there are those that obviously are not huh? Thanks, and that will be the end of it from my end.

Tom

I don't give a toss where u come from or where u want to live, but toask this sort of question belies belief.......................U ask then u slag off the poeple who reply

I went to Big C today and I'll be fcuked if I can be bothered to worry if Colgate toothpaste is more expensive than Sensodyn. In actual fact Sensodyn Original 100 gramms is 82 Baht however if u want to buy 220 grams of Sensodyn then it will cost only 142 Baht as opposed to Oral B ( which is my personal favorite ) which is 39 Baht for 80 grams.

It is terribly difficult to make the choice and choice u have a plenty in the TOOTHPASTE section.

Next I wanted to buy some quality tiolet rolls ( Phipps normally does for me....) as my friend in England forgot to send me the usual quota of Andrex Super Soft Double Thick...................BTW I only spent 1318 Baht and I've got enough food for tomorrow .........depends how my wife cooks

John, my good neighbor, you'd really be surprised where I came from and where I am living. I made a bet with someone about this part of the site...The Chiang Rai portion of the site, I bet it would be a negative experience, nearly useless for helping new people who want to come in, which kills the tourist trade in itself, I only made 50 bucks off the bet, but 50 bucks for 5 minutes work is pretty good eh?

It seems that this portion of the site have a select few who are so stagnant in life that they piss on anything relevant to others. Selfishness, boredom, low form of wit, a few cards short of a full deck, not the sharpest tac in the box...maybe these would be more accurate title instead of Chiang Rai?? And then have a Chiang Rai site with responsible, respectful people moderating it in a mature fashion. When we go to the internet cafe, we don't usually log onto here just because of Chiang Rai members doin what has taken place here. You already know from around town who are the kind ones, who are the most active, who are the most respectful farang, these few on this board are not really part of our crowd. Nonetheless though, I proved my point and I'll go collect my winnings.

well ... after His Mightiness' major wind-up .... we now have a claim that he is IN Chiang Rai .... any Mod care to look at the IP address and see? <<and promoting another forum? pegged this one as a troll in one ... apparently everyone did!>>

I don't give a toss where u come from or where u want to live, but toask this sort of question belies belief.......................U ask then u slag off the poeple who reply

I went to Big C today and I'll be fcuked if I can be bothered to worry if Colgate toothpaste is more expensive than Sensodyn. In actual fact Sensodyn Original 100 gramms is 82 Baht however if u want to buy 220 grams of Sensodyn then it will cost only 142 Baht as opposed to Oral B ( which is my personal favorite ) which is 39 Baht for 80 grams.

It is terribly difficult to make the choice and choice u have a plenty in the TOOTHPASTE section.

Next I wanted to buy some quality tiolet rolls ( Phipps normally does for me....) as my friend in England forgot to send me the usual quota of Andrex Super Soft Double Thick...................BTW I only spent 1318 Baht and I've got enough food for tomorrow .........depends how my wife cooks

John, my good neighbor, you'd really be surprised where I came from and where I am living. I made a bet with someone about this part of the site...The Chiang Rai portion of the site, I bet it would be a negative experience, nearly useless for helping new people who want to come in, which kills the tourist trade in itself, I only made 50 bucks off the bet, but 50 bucks for 5 minutes work is pretty good eh?

It seems that this portion of the site have a select few who are so stagnant in life that they piss on anything relevant to others. Selfishness, boredom, low form of wit, a few cards short of a full deck, not the sharpest tac in the box...maybe these would be more accurate title instead of Chiang Rai?? And then have a Chiang Rai site with responsible, respectful people moderating it in a mature fashion. When we go to the internet cafe, we don't usually log onto here just because of Chiang Rai members doin what has taken place here. You already know from around town who are the kind ones, who are the most active, who are the most respectful farang, these few on this board are not really part of our crowd. Nonetheless though, I proved my point and I'll go collect my winnings.

well ... after His Mightiness' major wind-up .... we now have a claim that he is IN Chiang Rai .... any Mod care to look at the IP address and see?

I don't give a toss where u come from or where u want to live, but toask this sort of question belies belief.......................U ask then u slag off the poeple who reply

I went to Big C today and I'll be fcuked if I can be bothered to worry if Colgate toothpaste is more expensive than Sensodyn. In actual fact Sensodyn Original 100 gramms is 82 Baht however if u want to buy 220 grams of Sensodyn then it will cost only 142 Baht as opposed to Oral B ( which is my personal favorite ) which is 39 Baht for 80 grams.

It is terribly difficult to make the choice and choice u have a plenty in the TOOTHPASTE section.

Next I wanted to buy some quality tiolet rolls ( Phipps normally does for me....) as my friend in England forgot to send me the usual quota of Andrex Super Soft Double Thick...................BTW I only spent 1318 Baht and I've got enough food for tomorrow .........depends how my wife cooks

John, my good neighbor, you'd really be surprised where I came from and where I am living. I made a bet with someone about this part of the site...The Chiang Rai portion of the site, I bet it would be a negative experience, nearly useless for helping new people who want to come in, which kills the tourist trade in itself, I only made 50 bucks off the bet, but 50 bucks for 5 minutes work is pretty good eh?

It seems that this portion of the site have a select few who are so stagnant in life that they piss on anything relevant to others. Selfishness, boredom, low form of wit, a few cards short of a full deck, not the sharpest tac in the box...maybe these would be more accurate title instead of Chiang Rai?? And then have a Chiang Rai site with responsible, respectful people moderating it in a mature fashion. When we go to the internet cafe, we don't usually log onto here just because of Chiang Rai members doin what has taken place here. You already know from around town who are the kind ones, who are the most active, who are the most respectful farang, these few on this board are not really part of our crowd. Nonetheless though, I proved my point and I'll go collect my winnings.

I'm off to get ar££$$holed on cheap beer... who gives a fUUk

Not me, I think you shoulddrink as much as possible for everyones sake

Again, I was setup and asked for this list from yourneighbors. But thank you also

I don't give a toss where u come from or where u want to live, but toask this sort of question belies belief.......................U ask then u slag off the poeple who reply

I went to Big C today and I'll be fcuked if I can be bothered to worry if Colgate toothpaste is more expensive than Sensodyn. In actual fact Sensodyn Original 100 gramms is 82 Baht however if u want to buy 220 grams of Sensodyn then it will cost only 142 Baht as opposed to Oral B ( which is my personal favorite ) which is 39 Baht for 80 grams.

It is terribly difficult to make the choice and choice u have a plenty in the TOOTHPASTE section.

Next I wanted to buy some quality tiolet rolls ( Phipps normally does for me....) as my friend in England forgot to send me the usual quota of Andrex Super Soft Double Thick...................BTW I only spent 1318 Baht and I've got enough food for tomorrow .........depends how my wife cooks

I already have those other costs considered...I was asked in a previous topic for this list...It wasn't something I thought of, it was something that a couple of these smart posters in your area thought of.

Going for this kind of detail but excluding medical insurance? Transportation - here thinking for purchase of car/scooter mentioned and write-off on those. Repairs?

Also "ketcup" can be from about 12 Baht for a local bottle to 300 Baht.

Oh, and a "bag" of pet food - he,he - they come in all sizes and qualities.

You should instead worry about the big budget items: rent, utilities,medical insurance,transport,communication.

Don't forget replacement/maintenance costs for cars/fridge/washer/whatever - I don't see a single light bulb or screw in your list either.....

Cheers!

Farma, thank you for a good mature response.

Prices are going to vary depending on where you buy your items. Markets can be cheaper and the corner store more expensive.

Maybe take a look at some of the websites for supermarkets in Chiang Mai to get an approximate idea of the costs for items.

Heres a link to TOPS

http://www.tops.co.th/index2.html

And a link to Tesco

http://www.tescolotus.com/promotions/promotion.asp

Support group? You've got to be kidding

to the OP .....

Keep reading! But to expect other people to do all your research for you is insane! There are many answers all over these forums!

Frankly, to consider moving here without having ANY real clue as to expenses just shows that you need to come on a long visit!

(and to alienate what may turn out to be your farang support group by not having a sense of humor ... not an auspicious start!)

Well, thank you for proving my point if nothing else, nearly all of ya are just plan ######s. when I asked ititially, your excuse was that it wasn't specific enough, then when I provide a list you did exactly as expected. I can see why most Thai see you as they do and why some are a simple embarrasment. I certainly hope hope there are a fewgood representatives living in Chiang Rai, but those folks appear to either stay away from this site or from you "gentlemen". Again, thanks ya lazy ######s.

Tom

Okay guys, I've made the list as comprehensive as I could off the top of our heads and hope this will turn out ok. Thanks for helping out. I guess besides buying you guys a beer, I'll also have to include a bottle of aspirin for working this list for me.

List of Grocery items we usually get

Loaf of White Bread.........................................................................

Loaf of Italian Bread........................................................................

6 cucumbers.......................................................................

...........

head of lettuce.........................................................................

......

peas............................................................................

..................

ears of corn............................................................................

.......

carrots.........................................................................

..................

green beans...........................................................................

........

squash..........................................................................

.................

sweet potatoes........................................................................

........

cheddar, swiss, parmaesan cheeses, .................................................

12 tomatoes........................................................................

...........

2 kilo of potatoes........................................................................

.....

2 kilo of onions..........................................................................

......

olives..........................................................................

...................

chives spices..........................................................................

.........

Basil spices..........................................................................

...........

oregano spices..........................................................................

......

garlic..........................................................................

....................

parsley spice...........................................................................

........

rosemary spice...........................................................................

....

bottle of mustard.........................................................................

...

bottle of ketchup.........................................................................

....

any steak sauce...........................................................................

..

2 kilo of white rice...........................................................................

1 kilo of brown rice..........................................................................

dozen hot dogs............................................................................

..

dozen eggs............................................................................

........

1 kilo of ham.............................................................................

.....

½ kilo of bacon...........................................................................

...

a chicken.........................................................................

..............

1 kilo of chicken breast....................................................................

1 kilo of hamburg/ground beef.........................................................

good cut of steak...........................................................................

fish? Not sure what kinds they have there, but halibut and haddock are favorites

500 grams flour...........................................................................

..

box of oatmeal.........................................................................

.....

bottle of honey...........................................................................

...

lemons..........................................................................

...............

oranges.........................................................................

...............

yellow bananas.........................................................................

....

mangoes.........................................................................

.............

strawberries....................................................................

.............

raspberries?................................................................................

.

blueberries?................................................................................

.

Watermelon......................................................................

...........

grapes..........................................................................

...............

kilo of almonds.........................................................................

....

500 grams of Butter.......................................................................

veg oil.............................................................................

............

salt............................................................................

.................

pepper..........................................................................

..............

box of crackers........................................................................

....

cocoa...........................................................................

...............

hot chocolate.......................................................................

........

coke/pepsi...........................................................................

.......

milk............................................................................

................

frozen concentrate juices? Or do you all do fresh squeezed?............

Pasta for spaghetti.......................................................................

pasta sauces..........................................................................

.....

Toiletries

Toothpaste......................................................................

...........

shit paper...........................................................................

.......

soap............................................................................

..............

deodorant.......................................................................

...........

shampoo.........................................................................

...........

tissues.........................................................................

..............

laundry soap............................................................................

..

paper towels..........................................................................

....

cleaning chemicals for the bathroom and shower, etc....................

bag of dog food/cat food..............................................................

vet check up for our animals........................................................

other oddities

price for car insurance, motor scooter insurance............................

price per litre of petrol/gas..........................................................

silk shirt...........................................................................

.........

t-shirt...........................................................................

............

pair of socks...........................................................................

..

pair of blue jeans.......................................................................

pair of knocker holders...............................................................

g string, (not for me, not even for my wife, but to throw at others who are over dressed on the beach)

price of flat screen tv, 32in.?.......................................................

Price of legal cable service that includes HBO...............................

Satellite Dishes available there?..................................................

Price of DVD player and new release DVD movies........................

price of music cd's.....................................................................

movie ticket prices....................................................................

average monthly cost or cost per kilowatt of electricity.................

a microwave oven also..............................................................

typical rent in safe, quiet location outside the city for a furnished 2/3 bedroom home.

Cost for water..........................................................................

And any other inclusions I may have overlooked that would not only be helpful for me, but also helpful for other future expats.

Hi Folks, No one earned a beer, but ya should at least get to clean the beer bottles up afterward for the effort. All joking aside, I know that everyones budget is different to each others'. thats why I was hoping to get a breakdown from people....electric costs should be similar to everyone elses, but would still be helpful, along with other costs, such as produce, meats, etc., well, just like what I said in my initial request. I didn't know it was a difficult question or request from a soon to be expat coming to Chiang Rai. I apologize. Anyway, if there are any members who can really help in this, I'd appreciate it. Thanks

Tom

Can any of you provide a somewhat rough estimate on the monthly costs to live in Chiang Rai or the folks just on the outskirts of the community? Possibly showing a break down on costs for groceries, i.e., cost of meats, veggies, poultry, etc., cost of household things, such as rent, electric, water, etc.? Other cost breakdowns such as meals out, trips, etc., for disposible income? I think this would be very helpful for us making our plans for moving to Chiang Rai and if the budget is done in this manner, then people can add and subtract items from each of your budgets to fit their lifestyle when they move there and be able to develop a workable lifestyle plan. Would this be a possible thing for you folks that are living there to do for your future neighbors? I for one would appreciate it and might even buy you a beer when we get there.

Sincerely,

Tom Austin

I'm sorry, I just realized I'm not supposed to promote my site on this site, so I deleted the yahoo site altogether. My apologies to the forum.

Sincerely,

tom