Pdubs

Not sure about that reasoning but I’m ok with being done. Thanks for the discussion.

Good question. Here’s one source and some quotes from it that apply to this question. It sounds like there are common experiences regardless of religion, although they are explained differently based on the individual’s beliefs or knowledge of religious symbols or people. https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/13/2/156 “However, there is a growing consensus that the interpretations of NDEs are largely based on the available images, concepts, and symbols available to the individual regardless of culture or religion.” ”Specifically, many patients who experience NDEs report a stronger belief in life after death, renewed sense of purpose, increased self-esteem, greater compassion and love for others, and a deeper interest in religious faith and spirituality (Greyson and Khanna 2014; Greyson 2015). These results are observed among those who previously identified as atheist or non-religious.” “In contrast, NDEs have led other people away from their former religious views. These people claimed that the NDE was inconsistent with their earlier religious knowledge so that they changed their religious beliefs and accepted a belief in a new religion or were less active in any organized religion.“ “However, these experiences touch upon the common religious experiences of human beings regardless of any previous religious or philosophical leaning.“

You get some sort of mini judgement (Revelation and the Gospels says there is a big one at the end of time) and then go to either Heaven or hell (or purgatory from which you go to Heaven. In some NDEs, people report going to either Heaven or hell, having a life review (maybe like a judgement). I’m also not sure that NDEs are exactly the same as what happens if you fully die and don’t come back, but either way they don’t seem inconsistent with the Bible

1. Not really sure what you want as far as actual scientific evidence. The only evidence possible is people’s experiences which apparently don’t have any meaning greater than dreams to you. I think it’s obvious that these alien abduction and flat earth etc. conspiracies are way less supported or legitimately questioned than NDEs. Not sure if you saw it, but I posted several New York Academy of Sciences articles that showed that this is a topic that deserves attention and investigation. If doctors consider this topic worth discussing and investigating, it probably means you shouldn’t discount it off hand. 2. Yeah, as I’ve talked about before, NDEs can often describe reality accurately. 3. That is a complete misrepresentation of the basis for my position. This is clearly more than just a weird dream and the brain acting normally. 4. Now you’re just doing an ad hominem argument. Could you show me the critical thinking that completely disproves all my claims and sources? Preferably something more than that you can’t trust these people/ their memories. As to your advice, please see the previously mentioned New York Academy of Sciences articles that show that people much more educated in this area than us believe there is in fact evidence that can’t be easily dismissed. 5. as mentioned before, there is research going into this area and that usually means some funding.

Where did you get that conclusion from? I believe in both.

Thanks for sharing that. Would you be willing to share more about what it was like, totally understand if not. Also curious why you view that and an afterlife as so different. I’m guessing what you view your experience to have been (something outside your physical self or just your brain having some experience) is a big influence in this.

With those articles I just wanted to show that it is an open question and many doctors are not sure yet if/how science could explain them. Also just seemed like a good place to do more research. Sounds like we agree on that though, I just think a supernatural explanation is not out of the question. While some things previously believed to be supernatural were proven otherwise, that is not true of all cases of this. That is a whole other subject though so we don’t have to go into that here.

My main point in the first two parts was that you can’t just discount all these experiences and say they are all fake, which it seems we agree on. I’m not sure it’s possible to prove that this is supernatural without trusting the sources or experiencing an NDE so I guess we can agree that it is an open ended question with no current proof outside of trusting people’s stories. To your third point, I guess that could be an explanation for it but I don’t think either of us knows enough about resuscitation and consciousness to determine which explanation is correct. I just posted some links to the New York Academy of Science. The first one describes our current understanding of death and what NDEs appear to hint at ( no real claim made), the last one describes several doctors’ views on NDEs.

Here are a couple articles from the New York Academy of Science on this topic: https://www.nyas.org/news-articles/academy-news/is-there-life-after-death/ this one describes some of the less easily explainable aspects of NDEs and how the meaning of death has changed recently https://www.nyas.org/press-releases/what-happens-when-we-die/ “Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice.” https://www.nyas.org/landing/rethinking-mortality/ another article describes how one doctor thinks these are explainable physiologically and several others who think science can not address the question: https://www.nyas.org/news-articles/academy-news/what-near-death-and-psychedelic-experiences-reveal-about-human-consciousness/

The government could have made those pictures or videos with CGI. Ok, yeah, I was using hyperbole to make a point. Literally the entire basis of both of your arguments is “I don’t trust your sources” “they could all be explained by tons of people lying or having weird memory anomalies that are consistent with other NDEs” “doesn’t seem believable to me.” Maybe one of you could find an authoritative source to answer any of my points? Over half of the world’s population through time if not more believes or believed in an afterlife of some sort so I’m not sure you can say they are not easily explainable when a large percent of the population could explain it using a soul and afterlife. This is a phenomenon that is consistent with several religions. As to the resuscitations, the source I posted said that the control group who did not experience the NDEs could not describe their resuscitations and just had to guess. I also am not an expert on consciousness during resuscitations, but that would seem to indicate that you wouldn’t remember much at all.

Do you mind sharing more about your NDE?

With the reasoning you are using, there is no possible way to “prove” anything supernatural because if something physically impossible happens, you can just say “we’ll find a scientific explanation in the future.” You are also discounting many of these NDEs just because they could have been faked or lied about. And while trusting everything you hear is obviously dumb, you can go to far the other way. You could use that reasoning to claim we never made it to the moon. Two NDE stories that I’ve heard that would have been very hard to fake are 1. A kid who met his little sister who died two months after conception and told his parents about her. However, his parents had never told him about the miscarriage and they didn’t even know the gender of the baby. 2. Someone who had an out of body NDE and saw a shoe on an outside ledge of the hospital that no one knew about. She described what it looked like and where it was, and the nurse later found it and it matched the description. https://www.rnceus.com/uncon/unnd.html you’re probably gonna say these were likely faked or you don’t have enough evidence so I’m not sure we’re gonna get anywhere with this.

The paragraph says that some people met relatives they had never seen before (sometimes didn’t even know they existed). The other one says they could describe their entire resuscitation much of which happened while they were unconscious. People without NDEs could not do this. Im pretty sure those things could not be just the result of drugs and even if they could be, it would not be a consistent result.

I have experienced Deja Vu like most people and while I see what you mean about similarities, but the people who met their deceased relatives were able to name them and describe their relationship to them without having known they existed previously. That does not happen in Deja Vu. I’m curious how you would respond to this quote from that source: ”In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat. This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted. Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events.” As to the second source, isn’t that the point - that these experiences are oxymorons if you try to explain them medically. Could you send a source that fits your standard for being authoritative that offers a medical/scientific explanation for NDEs?

Here are some of the more convincing parts of this source. I’m not sure I’d say this is irrefutable proof, but I also think that these experiences can be just thrown out as the result of drugs or dreams, etc. I also just posted a couple more sources (more authoritative) which, while not making the same bold claims, had similar findings. “Another prospective study of out-of-body observations during near-death experiences with similar methodology to Sabom’s study was published by Dr. Penny Sartori.9 This study also found that near-death experiencers were often remarkably accurate in describing details of their own resuscitations. The control group that did not have NDEs was highly inaccurate and often could only guess at what occurred during their resuscitations.“ “Further evidence that NDEs are not a result of expectation comes from the aforementioned Kelly study where in one-third of the cases the encountered deceased person had a poor or distant relationship with the NDEr, or was someone that had died before the NDEr was born.”