Prakanong

"Fact remains the same - one of the biggest and most profitable Thai companies was sold to a foreign government by the Prime Minister himself who publicly denied any involvment (what at shameless <deleted>!), and it was against Thai laws, I might remind you - he amended the laws specifically for this sale."

Please try to get this correct - it was not against Thai law as it had been amended as you point out - arguing against yourself in the same sentence makes it look like irrationality has broken out and logic is adrift.

We have covered the denial bit - you can not talk about deals for stock exchange rules na?

Then all you have is petty nationalism - not even a strategic industry are you alleging but a profitable company was sold - is that all you have - the barrel is being scraped once more

He is a venal greedy corrupt bastard who used thr system - probably better than other in manipulating the system. The others have just been blatant evil thieves who took the countries money, have been involved in drugs and much more.

He needs to be seen in context - and in the context of Thailand he is no worse or better than most.

God forbid you might have to read it yourself and THINK for yourself. Easier just to batch his story with all the others. Would it kill you to read a book? With good reason because of his horrible experiences, the author developed a very dark vision about humanity in general. His pessimism would be well reinforced reading most of the posts here. I think I need a strong drink now. Bye.

I have read the book -quite some time ago

Toys out the pram again are they and spitting the dummy - same as the other threads you start and whinge like a little girl when someone disagree's with you?

"(I assume by kill you mean intentionally murdered. I told you I believe his account which was that the dead man violently attacked him with a knife (and the motivation was explained) and then the author fought back and the dead man disappeared into the night. At the scene, nobody saw a body. He possibly died hidden in a ditch, or died later of trauma, or the rich scam artist and/or police might have finished him off (my guess)."

No I mean did he kill the guy in a fight or whatever - could have been manslaughter but it was him in the fight and it was him with a motive.

Look at this with a bit of critical thinking and rationality - prison is full of innocent men and the story of a innocent man in a horrid Thai jail sells much more than one of a violent killer who got done abroad.

This book sounds exactly like all the others, Warreen Fellows, The other Aussie guy in Indonesia, The lone Brit in "Spains Toughest jail" and on and on - its all self pity city - are they all from Liverpool?

"A body was found (finished reading the book). The account of the years his "trial" went on were actually almost as horrifying as the account of his torture. He spent the time in both Chonburi prison (he claims was worse) and Lard Yao. He also contracted severe TB in prision which he was lucky to survive."

So - do you think he killed the guy?

Never mind the horrendous conditions in the prison - we have heard enough of that elsewhere although Sandra Gregory said it was worse in the UK but for different reason ie psychological brutality of the guards

"I wonder just how many people walking on that street were security for The Family (Looks like 2 Thais in the background?"

Does he have bodyguards in the UK?

If so would he use Thai's when there are probably better available locally - although Abronovich uses Russians does he not?

Thing is if the UK accepts he is under threat from Thailand he would probably get police protection - they would not want him killed al la the Ruskie

"transferred major assets - very likely to secure them for ever for himself - out of the country and the reaction of this - the direct "karma" following his deeds!"

Aplogies if I have got you wrong here but are you saying he will get bad karma for selling Shin Corp to Temasek - a foreign entity.

Hmm did not know bhudda was such a nationalist Thai

Anyway, I think discussions in this way are utterly useless, I mean it was his to sell, and it doesn't really matter to whom he had sold it. We live in a global economy and "national companies" the world over have stopped getting their government's protection (not everywhere though !).

I think that is the only right thing to do. What benefit would Thailand gain from Shincorp being Thai, not much beyond what they are getting now. They still need to pay VAT, Taxes, they still employ people. These are not really rational sentiments.

You, I and a few others know these are not rational sentiments.

We do have plenty of people on here doing mental summersaults trying to argue for protectionism in this case and I think half of them have turned into petite Thai nationalists when it suits them

"and was there not something about not being able to find a body? i am sure the body was missing for a while? "

I think it was just that the place where they had the fight could not be found - not like the body was missing then put back - I am having trouble recalling exact details from a book I think I read in one sitting with a hangover ;-)

Its not like having to remember my school books for my MBA ;-)

"Written from his cell and smuggled out page by page, Colin Martin’s autobiography chronicles an innocent man’s struggle to survive inside one of the world’s most dangerous prisons."

Is this true from the books blurb then?

Was it smuggled out page my page . hmmmm

Innocent - who killed the bodyguard then - the Bugis man? - might have been manslaughter in another country and not murder but still

"Colin has a child in Thailand dont forget, thats why he comes back to Thailand every now and then. and for the record, I think he did stab the guy, but I think in self defence so it should have been manslaughter not murder. after what these <deleted> did to him, I think I would of stabbed the lot of em."

Yes of course - I forgot about the child and he would come back to vist

But

How is he not PNG after being done and convicted of murder - I thought you got the black mark for even small offences?

Yes it may well have been a stabbing in a fight where it was the other guy or him - what was the defence though - murder may have been the only option to convict him of if the mystery stabber was the only defence? (I am trying to recall the book - its in storage in the UK and not with me in Singapore)

"I met a farang who was in prison with Martyn, and evidently it was his Thai wifes brother that did the killing, but he got the blame. Martyn obviously changed the story for his book. Some of the conditions he described are quite true, so I have been told, so I believe the book is based on fact."

Yes its based on facts - there was a murder, there was a guy who fiddled a lot of British workers out of large sums

There is a lot to fill in though

I thought they were travelling in a car from Pattaya to Bangkok - three of them in the car - the Kiwi, Martyn and the body guard - never any mention of the brother

I also (please correct me if I am wrong) also seem to remember it was a random piss stop - where was the brother hiding?

Condition described - yes i can well accept that - its the other <deleted> I am not convinced about.

There is no way I can see this going through the British courts.

Quite a good speech extract/ article here:

Thai Politics beyond 2006 coup

Thought it summed up the generalities quite well.

Another I found by Shawn Crispin (Asia Times), but maybe best not to post on here.

I think finally the answer is that the est. in Thailand most likely (certainly) does not want Thaksin back. The last thing they want is Bangkok under siege and Thaksin taking on the role as some kind of martyr. They would rather have him away in some foreign land "out of sight, and out of mind" and get on with business as usual.

They might have visions of returning home al la the Acquino's though - without the shooting of course - when political events take a turn as they inevitably will - how old are his opponents

He should put that to rest in tacit agreement never to return and no extradition

"There was an article in the Bangkok Post or the Nation this past week describing the inhumanity of all the jails in South East Asia."

Of course they are - we are disputing the tourist police being involved in a murder case not conditions in a Thai jail.

Then there is the fact of the multiple stabbing which he amazingly has amnesia about and thus has the logical jump to his innocence and it was all the nasty Thai's - he remembers fighting with the guy though - someone else must have popped out the jungle and stabbed the guy and run off eh?

The whole story has a million holes in it - yes people back in the UK were ripped off - just who was involved? My cynical view is above

Warren Fellows believed admitted he was guilty and deserved what he got. He just wanted to warn any would be criminals to stay above board in Thailand and SEA in general because the consequences are rather severe.

He was also a bit "self pity city" too even though he had been a drug runner for years - he gets a slagging too over the Rugby players of Aussies

He still tells porkies too - you reckon they brought in elephants to play football with prisoners?

"having Thailand's dirty laundry being washed in a British court.Who knows there might even be reference to the puzzle of how people like Sondhi and Surayud became multi millionaires on a soldier's paltry salary."

The dirty laundry issue has not been raised - good one

If allegations in certain books are true a lot might just come out about all sorts of people in very high places - he would be finished forever in Thailand though along with his family

"It is not only Roman Catholics who believe in transubstantiation. Anglicans, for example, still officially believe in it"

Really - I thought that was one of the major differences between the Catholics and proddies - I must be remembering my Modern European History at Uni wrong

"transferred major assets - very likely to secure them for ever for himself - out of the country and the reaction of this - the direct "karma" following his deeds!"

Aplogies if I have got you wrong here but are you saying he will get bad karma for selling Shin Corp to Temasek - a foreign entity.

Hmm did not know bhudda was such a nationalist Thai

I do wonder why this account wasn't made into a movie?

The first thing that comes to mind, is that if his story was just a routine, got arrested and released story, it wouldn't sell. Be careful of what you believe. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's 100% truth, just his version of it (and I doubt that many authors that wants to make money off their work would hestitate overly long about "blurring" things a bit.

When did all this (allegedly) occur ?

I don't believe everything I read. Of course, nothing is 100 percent truth. But this torture happened or it didn't happen. How can you be so sure it didn't happen?

The book was published in 2005. The author had served 8 years for his "crime" at the Bangkok Hilton. So subtract 8 years from 2005. BTW, Wiki claims he works today as a welder. I hope he reads Thaivisa and will post.

I remember the reporting very well in the Bangkok Post as I was living there at the time- if i had to hazard a year it was 1999

A lot of the guy's fiddled out of their money were from my home town - ex-shipyard workers hired to build a barge but the had to put their own redundancy money in and lost it. Having to pay for jobs is illegal in the UK but they got round it by advertising in The Sunderland Echo from a Dutch company if I remember correctly - call me cynical but I reckon Mr Martin was in on the fiddle and only got his back up when his partner in crime the Kiwi fiddles him too

Why dose this sounds like a copy of 12 years in hel_l” Damage done” book by that Australian guy. Imo I think its fake and his copied for just money. It sound like it worked as well. Capturing the imagination. If it is true then they have broken the agreement between the UN. Also I think the tourist police can’t handle shit. Try getting in to a fight with a bib. You want to see my scar??

You are talking (I think) about the self admitted Aussie drug runner. I don't recall he mentioned torture to get a confession as he was caught red handed.

In the book I am talking about, the author claims innocence of a murder (so far in the book, there was no actual DEAD BODY but I will let you know, still reading it) and being tortured to obtain a false confession. There are alot of farangs in Thai prison. Sorry if this is too confusing for you. BTW, interesting point, that the author says a regular Chonburi police official (not tourist police) offered to get him off early in the process for 300K baht, but the author didn't have the money at the time (as his forture had been stolen by a farang scam artist whose bodyguard was the alleged murder victim) and he didn't really didn't know whether paying off would have worked or not. Chonburi was involved because the fight occurred in Chonburi province.

I do wonder why this account wasn't made into a movie?

So the ordinary police were involved in Chonburi first - how the hel_l did this get passed to Tourist Police - just would not happen - get real

"

Note to Prakanong: the book is presented as a true life account of what happened to the author. It is NOT a novel. Comparing this to a novel or expecting great literary ability from a person who doesn't normally write books is absurd."

Yes the book is absurd I agree.

i must admit when i 1st came to Thailand i did the same as the next man and read up on a few legend books, fellows being one of them and private dancer being another then i thought id read this book and its the 1st book i put down half way through and said to myself i cant read anymore of this mans <deleted>....and never picked it back up

I am a glutton for buying any book about Thailand - the amount i have not read or put down after a few pages is criminal.

Its worse now though as there is a market so any illiterate goon can get published if he talk about Thai jails or bar girls - there is some absolute <deleted> out there - often reviewed by illiterate uneducated oiks which cause others to buy the books and get disappointed

If I had to talk about decent authors on the Farang Thai scene I would only name a few and that is only my opinion and may thing more about them as I have met some of them

Stephen Leather - mainly his thriller airport novels though for a quick rad

Dean Barret

Errm

Christpher Moore - although find them hard going and only read two

Colin Pipperel

Jake Needham

John Burdett

Any proof of this ?

It is a non-fiction account. You would have to believe the author. I find him very credible.

Sorry but I do not - there are so many holes in his account.

He never admits killing the bloke when they rolled down the embankment - who did?

Why would the Tourist Police be involved in this type of criminal investigation - it wouldbea matter for the ordinary police.

Another thing - he is allegged to reurn to Thailand and is seen in Pattaya according to reports - how does he get back in and why not PNG - and more to the point after all that would you return?

This book belongs alongside Warren Fellows and "hel_l's Prisoner" in the book of south east Asian prison fairy tales.

"YOU must have lost your marbles if you think Temasek didn't buy it for profit. Whether they are making any actual profits at this point is not important. It's part of their portfolio, they pay for pensions. AIS had some very profitable periods since the sale, too.

It surely turned out not as they expected, but the fact still stands - Thaksin sold the company to Temasek so that Singaporeans can have better welfare."

Of course Temasek sold it expecting a return on investment. Sorry to tell you there are no state pensions in Singapore though - they derive that from CPF - temasek is the second of the Government Sovereign Wealth funds down here - they do not have a welfare state.

As for Thaksin selling it to Temasek so Singaporean can have better welafare - you have come to this picnic short of a sandwich regarding that statement. ROFLMAO

He sold it for his own profit - the fact anybody in Singapore might gain anything from this was as far gone as your first <deleted> if you believe that.

I am sure he would have sold it to a Thai if anyone could afford it.

"No one knew what the deal was, even Thaksin himself denied the sale just days before that."

Like not discussing a deal is not normal in situations like this - never happens does it in London or Wall street - really clutching at straws now.

So it would have been OK for him to sell it if he re-invested the receipts in Thailand - better tell that to all levels of Thai sopiciety to only buy Thai then - better send all those Rolex, Versace , and Rolls Royces bak - better close down TG till they can build their own plane - the argument is nonesense

Do you aplly these standarss to american or European entrepeneurs - you can sell you company but you must spenmd the money only in your own country - do you apply this to yourself?

Going on along those lines, I guess the very fact that the Thai legal system isn't in good books back in Europe (and I am putting this mildly), will probably be a reason for the UK to not extradite either of them.

Then why bother maintaining the extradition treaty between the two countries? Correct me if I am wrong, but if Thaksin's asylum appeal is rejected AND Thailand requests his extradition, does the UK really have any reasonable choice but to extradite him, to honor the treaty?

Well he would have to prove he would not get a fair trial, its politically motivated and that its not a crime in the UK I think)

You do not get an automatic extradition unless you acquiece to it - you can fight it on a number of grounds.

Just because there is a treaty in place does not mean it an automatic rendition - this is not American rules hee using the fear of terrorism - we have due process in the UK ;-)

"Going on along those lines, I guess the very fact that the Thai legal system isn't in good books back in Europe (and I am putting this mildly), will probably be a reason for the UK to not extradite either of them."

Yeah he can just point to his pal Chalerms son's case.

Shot a policeman in a crowded disco in front of dozens of witnesses. Did a runner for awhile. Came back and found not guilty as people all had amnesia and did not see a thing.

Then he could go for the Kanxchanaburi case where two Brtis were shot.

Kirsty Young could be brought up as well - British coppers have the DNA of the Thai copper but he was moved out of the reach of the law

The list is endless

"A team of lawyers had been drawn up and was waiting for the formal signature of the Attorney-General, who is due to return from an overseas trip at the end of this week, state prosecutor Kosonlavat Intujunyong said. "We have to prove that what he did in Thailand was wrong under British law," he told Reuters"

Like they will be doing anything - this brief needs to be passed to English lawyers who will engage a Barrister or QC. Some Thai's will get a long holiday in London though maybe advising on Thai law and evidence - LOL

"That is now no longer the case, although Thaksin, now owner of English Premiership soccer club Manchester City, is likely to be able to call on some of London's best legal minds to ensure any extradition attempt is stalled in British courts for years."

The Thai's can and will have to hire some of London's best legal minds too - they can not reperesent themselves at hearings in London so this bit is rubbish. It might not stop at London though - there is always the European Court of Human Rights after the first hearing, its appeal to the appeal court then up to the Law Lords.

Whatever some London barristers will be getting holiday homes in the south of france, Tuscany or Barbados out of the thai people.

""give them some time", yes, tell that to the PAD. Or maybe you don't mean that the current elected government should be given time?"

Yeah - like anything is going to change - we have only the track record of venal corrupt politicains to go by and it will be more of the same.

If its a half decent guy like Leepak/Abhasit they will be trodden all over and be most ineffectual - the same snouts will still be at the trough from the top to the bottom.

Some posters here need to put Thaksin in a wider context and learn a bit if thai history - he was really just more of the same with populism thrown in.