pallasaide

Go round to your local market with your other half. Look for the stand/stall or table that has bottles of honey on it (most markets will have a stall that has a few bottles of honey, not jars like we use in the USA, but 750ml and 1 litre bottles like you purchase alcohol in). Ask your other half to explain to the stall holder (or do it yourself if your Thai is up to scratch) that you are looking for a hive of bees and the chances are that if they don;t have their own, they will know exactly who you need to go and see, even if its a bit of a journey, because beekeeping in Thailand is not very popular.

Go and look at the hive before making any committments. Get the guy to take the lid off and have a good look at the frames. The frames are the oblong frames which the bees build the honey comb on. The Thai's build their own hives, a copy of the English Langstroth type, so it will have around 8 to 10 frames per box. You want around half the frames to be around 1/3 to 1/2 "capped" (full of honey and sealed), and the closer to the dry season the fuller the combs should be, which means the bees in that hive are a healthy bunch that have been working to save for the winter.

You want to avoid hives that have empty combs that are dark in colour and dry and brittle. That is an indicator the hive does not have a strong swarm and its been a few seasons since the swarm was strong enough or big enough to use the space they have. If the empty comb is a light colour and soft and plaible to the touch, that will be a good indicator the bees have recently built the comb i.e. it is a healthy hard working swarm. Have a look for spider webs in the corners, and dead insects lying inside on the floor of the hive. A healthy swarm throws out the rubbish.

Also a good idea to go on a warm sunny day when a healthy hive will be as "busy as a bee". If you get there and its hot as hel_l and bees are not constantly flying in and out, move on to the next hive. Be cautious about any hive the owner takes you to and wants to sell to you. If he has a load of hives the chances are you are you will be shown a hive he wont miss. Thats fine, let him do that but be cautious. You may care to point to some other hive and ask to take a look at that.

Once you have selected your hive wait til late afternoon early evening or a rainy day and then take it. Block the entrance up with some newspaper or a cloth stuffed in and load it up on the back of the pickup. Tie it down.

When you take it home palce it somewhere where the bees have clear unobstructed flght path into and out of the hive. Tim has al his facing the morning sun to encourage them to get working early, but its not such a big deal which way they face in Thailand, there is so much sun. Under a tree or some thing that can provide cover from the mid-day sun beating down on the hive roof is preferable to leaving it exposed to direct mid-day sun.

How can you garuntee you arent been offered a bad hive?

You cant truth be be told there is a ton of info on the net that will give you a lot of detail, but remembering it all and been able to apply all the detail at the time when choosing the hive is easier said than done. So keep the above in mind, and keep it simple and practical. So long as the hive looks clean inside (they're all scruffy outside), the honeycomb is not old dark and brittle, their is a fair amount of capped comb and its a warm day with bees flying in and out, the chances are you are looking at a healthy hive of bees, and you won't have to worry much further than that. The rule: use your eyes and take your time.

Will they fly away?

So long as there is sufficient food in the area (meaning pollen and nectar), no, that is unlikely. The first couple of days there will be a lot of flying around the hive with no apparent purpose as the bees re-oreintate them selves to their new surroundings, but it is quite normal and they will quickly settle in and get on with life. In about 6 weeks time all the bees that were in that hive when you purchased it will have died and have been replaced with new bees who will know no other area (except the old queen, who can live a good 10-15 years if looked after)

The only time the hive will "swarm" is if it gets too full. The bees will then breed a new queen and push off with about half the swarm one sunny day (tends to happens in summer).

Will you have to look after them?

It may be a good idea to lift the lid every few weeks during winter to see if the swarm is staying the same size or getting smaller. If it's getting smaller and smaller its an indication that there is not sufficient food in the area, and then there is a chance they will push for greener pastures. The problem can be overcome by feeding them during the winter with diluted honey, or in deed pure honey. Put some on a plate and put a clean cloth on top of the honey. Push the cloth into the honey so that it absorbs. This increases the suraface area the bees can feed off by providing them with a larger area to settle on instead of having to fight with loads of other insects around the rim of the plate, and then trying to setle on the surafce of the honey and get trapped in it.

Put the plate on an upside down coffe tin which has been smeared with grease aorund the bottom (stops ants) and place it about 30 feet away from the hive, or closer, and then every few hours move it away a futher few feet. they'll quickly find it.

So long as they have a nearby food source no matter how bad flower growth is, they are not likely to leave.

Tim adds lastly that he is not a "bee expert". The above his practical experiance in the North East of Thailand over the last 14 years during which time he has kept and mainted 3 to 5 hives at any given time. At the moment he has 3. The oldest one is 9 years old (i.e. the hive has been permanently occupied by a swarm) and has always been placed in his cane fields. The youngest one is 3 years old and the other is 6 years old. These last 2 are used to support fileds of makua. They are fed every dry season, and the years that he has not fed them over winter are the years that he lost the swarms, except for 3 occassions, twice when ants destoryed the swarm and once when some or other animal had a go at a hive.

He has got all his hives from the Thai Department of Ag.

The government has a Royal sponsored research apiary on the road that leads to the Kao Yai National park from the town of Pak Chong in Korat province. The apairy is located on the right hand side of the road heading towards the Park about 3 miles before the main gate. It is set about 50 yards back from the road on a dirst road. The hives are visable from the main road. The old guy who runs the place has done so for about 20 years. It takes some arm twisting to get him part with a hive, but if you are in the area it will pay to drop to by and see him. He speaks english pretty good and is a gold mine of usable and practical information.

For Tim

D.V.

Oh, I don't understand what you two fight about. Both of you provide excellent advice here so just get along, will you?

Anyway, what remains for me now is to find where I can buy a hive full of bees.

Another question: I have no intention to harvest honey - can I just leave them alone in their hive or will they outgrow it and migrate if I don't collect the honey? I just want them for pollination - got plenty of small trees that will soon be big.

Mr Chownah

Go back to the other thread where you have been so eager to post your "warning", and read Tims reply, much of which is common sense, but which in event he asks me to point out to you he raised last year.

But all that aside, Tim asks, just what is the point of your comment? Ingling is growing a few Mango trees, this has nothing to do with fields of makua plants.

D.V.

For Tim

Tim says

Well of course it is, it is an insecticide, just what were you expecting?

Tim says he raised this issue in a posting sometime last year.

You deal with it by using drippers. Drippers leave no residue on flowers as the uptake is through the roots in the ground. Drippers also eliminate mist drift, which if you are concerned takes into consideration the odd bee taking a flight path across your field!

But if you do spray or apply through sprinklers, do so on fields between flower cycles. These will be times when foraging bees are at their lowest, and because it is been applied in the evening (as Tim has also always reccomended), by the morning it will have dried. Dried K/Z residue does not stick to the leg combs on bees well, reducing the risk of it been smeared on honey combs when the bee returns to the hive, where the real potential damage can lie (hive contaimination).

Bees in Thailand tend to be active all year, although their foraging activity does drop off considerably inland Thailand, during the cooler months. Along the coastal areas they stay pretty active season to season throughout the year.

If you had bees foraging in flowers around you sometime back but not now, it could be for a number of reasons: some local lad has pillaged the hive (meaning destroyed it and so they have pushed off elsewhere), or the bees have changed taste. Bees are by and large flower specific, each bee sticking to it’s own particular type of flower, and then changing to another type when that kind of flower in it’s foraging range ceases to offer a bounty.

It could also be the distance the bees from the hive that fed on your mango flowers have to fly to feed on those flowers. Nature is a clever thing and bees will not fly to flowers if the energy they have to use to get to and back from the hive exceeds the benefit those flowers offer. So they may well just have found a closer supply and are thinking “sod it, this lot’s to far from home”.

Bees in Thailand kept in hives do not produce the quantities of honey beekeepers get from hives in Europe and the USA, other than of course the giant Asian honey bee. But they cannot be kept in hives, and taking honey away from them is best left to the old hand specialists, a lot of whom get killed each year, usually falling out of high trees after been attacked. You will know a Giant Asian Honey Bee when you see it, it is enourmous, and they are far more agressive than hive bees. Be carefull, honey hunters get killed in Malaysia and Northern Thailand every year by them.

If you wish to buy a hive, they cost around B400-B500 (with bees). Your biggest risk will be black ants. God only knows who they get into hives, but they are very good at it and will destroy a hive in a few days. Get 4 large coffee tins, smear them with grease and place the hive on top of them. Make sure the grass around the hive is kept short, as it will act as a step ladder fo rthe ants to get into the hive.

If you start feeding your bees with sugar water or diluted honey over winter when there are no flowers around and it is very dry (and they will benefit from that), it is important not to withdraw that feeding suddenly come spring, but to do so gradually over a period of a couple weeks, else the hive will not be able to adjust. Like drug addicts bees become dependant when artificially supported.

Otherwise, no reason why you shouldn't. They certainly make fields of makua to grow well.

For Tim

DV

- and Tim will be back online himself later this week as soon as he ahs settle into his new ward.

Correct, that is exactly what they are Harmonia axyridis (Multi Coloured Asian Ladybug).

The congregate in colonies for just before winter and will stay together as a group untill next spring.

But it is very unusual to them outside in large groups like that. They will push in a few days and find some cover nearby, usualy under a pile of leaves or a dead tree.

for Tim

DV

Pond Life, here is how it works.

Kubotas old numbering system (first 2 digits) is based on horsepower produced at peak torque rpm according to you know who. This is the best rpm to be operating these small/medium sized tractors, given the best efficiency. However, the quoted max horsepower is achived at a higher rpm than that at which the max pulling power or torque is achieved.

In simple terms the horsepower rating at max torque is a more realistic and accurate relfection of the tractors capability, than is the max horsepower, which always occurs somewhere above the max torque rpm., and Kubota belive it is more accurate to reflect the horsepower at max torque and therefore at the max capability of the tractor, than it is to "mislead" people using the peak horsepower. This is why the first 2 digits in the model number are below the max horsepower rating.

Kubota max horsepower for the small tractors will be somewhere between 3-9 hp above the first 2 digits in the 4 digit model number. This rule also applies to any of the B, L and Z series, and in the case of tractor models with a series of letters before and after a 3 digit number, the true horsepower figure (i.e. at max torque) is usualy given by the last 2 digits.

Contary to popular belief, their is no relationship between 2wheel drive and 4wheel drive Kubota B. L and Z series tractors model numbers that end in 02 or 04 wheel drive B,L and Z Kubota series.

For what it worth Tim is both a Kubota and Ford tractor dealer and imports 2nd hand Fords from Holland and 2nd hand Kubota and Iseki from Japan, for resale on the Thai market.

Lanna. Your tractor looks similar to what Im after but I can probably get away with something a bit smaller, but Im buggered if I can get my head around Kubota's numbering system. I would have thought a 2602 would be 26 hp !

Do you have a pic of you're brushcutter/blade/disc ?

Does it look like a shallow box that hangs off the back mount ?

Im not to bothered about the finish but it would be nice to be able to use the grass for hay & I figure shedded is not good.

Can anyone suggest something that would be better for this purpose.

Do locals feed their cattle hay ?

Pond Life

Tim tried potatoes once, and it was a complete faliure.

The fact is, unless you are in the highland region around Changmai or Changrai, you just do not have the climatic conditions in Thailands to grow potatoes successfully. There is no way way that one was his conclusion.

The Ford 6610 and 7610 have proved themselves to be solid, relaible and economical tractors. The fact that they take so much abuse and generally are not well maintained in Thailand but keep going, proves the point.

The argument for them in Thailand (and for that matter any of the old blue fords so common in Thailand) is a number of reasons.

Most of the parts are interchanagable, what fits on a 6XXX wil fit on a 7XXX

They are simple mechanics to work on, no complicated electronics.

Spare parts avaliability is excellent in Thailand and there is absolutely nothing you can't get a replacement for in 24hrs.

They can be turbo charged up to around 200hp giving a torque rise of as much as 200%, and retain mechanical reliability.

The rear diff or gearbox are so over engineered that that the same design was used right up to and throughout the production of the Series II.

They are still in production in Brazil.

Just one problem: if you do buy a 4 wheel drive (and do if you can afford to, they offer so much more pulling power for draght work), try your best to get one with a Carraro front axle and not a ZF front axle. Other than that, there is nothing wrong in buying a 6XXX or 7XXX. And even if you buy cheap, all the parts to put it into an almost as good as new mechanical condition in Thailand are avalible off the shelf.

It is an excellent choice for any average sized Thai farm, just ask 10 000 Thai farmers.

I'd be VERY afraid to buy a second hand Ford here. I never had much respect for Ford tractors in the US but after seeing the abuse they take here, I have developed a healthy respect for them. I have never seen machinery abused the way those tractors are treated here in Thailand. On the other hand a small second hand Kubota or Yanmar may be OK because they are too light to take out tree stumps.

It sounds like you are been asked to buy some buffalo, and that this is not a case of you having any particular interest in them per say?

As well form what you have said it also sounds like they are been purchased more for the sake of purchase as opposed to any particular reason, as you have not stated any particular reason other than "which is more useful around the farm", which suggests that whoever you are buying on behalf of has not communicated to you that they themselves have any particular reason.

That been the case, this sounds like you will be best off getting a couple of buffalo.

Compared to a cow, a buffalo will offer a better return if looked at from a food requirement and care point of view over time versus a cow. A cow has the potential to generate a higher return but the that potential is dependant on a number of points you have not described.

For example, do you have a shed to keep it in overnight, do you have land to grow proper forage on, can you offer it good quality clean water. If you have the above (meaning you do not have to outlay money to purchase forage, you can grow it, and you have a shed on your own land, and you have ample clean water from a tap or the ground) then you have to potential to generate a higher return with a cow.

However if your answer to the above is no and you have to reply on rough grasses and natural bush or scrub land, do not have shed to keep the animal in, and will be using muddy river water for the animal, then you are going to be better off with a buffalo, not because it will give you a higher when and if you sell it or the calves, but because relative to the cow, the maintenance expenses between now and then will have been so much less than keeping the cow under the same conditions.

And if you do have the land to use for free to grow decent forage, remember you will need to water or irrigate it, you will need to maintain that field which means you will have to "cut and carry" forage each day or at least every second day i.e. not only is it a question of what is avalible for the cow, it is also a question of how much time is avalible to the person who will be looking after the cow, and just as important (if not more so) how much time that person will be willing to put in consitsantly day after day. If you have any question about that long term relaibility, then not withstanding any of the above or any other comments made by other forum members (which are all valid), then it really should be a buffalo.

For Tim

D.V.

I am going to be in the unenviable position of having to buy cows or buffalo in April in or near Ubon Ratchatani. Not being Thai, a farmer or a frequent visitor to the area, I have several questions.

First, what is the price of cows? buffalo? Where do you buy them (i heard a rumor that there is a livestock auction the first Friday of the month). Can you get them delivered? Is there a discount for buying 2 or more? While I know inherently that buffalo are more expensive, which are more useful around the farm?

Clearly I am out of my element, and any information would be appreciated.

In Tims opinion, all the alternative methods described in this thread are great ideas.

The key to them is of course using drippers, which instead of throwing out large volumes of water to feed the whole field and all its weeds, instead concentrate the water around the plant that needs it, do not require high pressure to operate properly and do not waste it

Low pressure equals low energy requirement.

Drippers are a great way for watering vegatables, and there use will slash your energy bill. There is no need to water vegetables quickly, in fact with as little as 2m elevation (whether in a tank or on higher ground) a slow watering that results permitts using any of the above methods as they do not have to replenish the raised water supply fast.

By the same token, a couple of 100watt solar panels (or even one) can supplement amy of the above alternative systems to move a substantial amount of water (thousands of liters an hour) to a several meters elevation for stroage to supply drippers.

D.V.

Bannork

FYI, Tim’s wife checked the prices for makua at the main wholesale market called Gateway just outside of Bangkok for the week 15^th-22^nd Jan varied between B13-B17 per kilogram. At the wholesale market in Kon Kaen is what between B9-B12. Tim was getting B6-B10 per kilo.

Also there is a glut of makua on the market at the moment. All conditions are good. But that will start to change over the next few weeks as the dry season kicks in. Tim is confident about that

D.V.

Well this is the time of the year when water is still plentiful in most places and the weather is good for growing most things so I think that generally speaking this is the worst time of the year to make money. Prices should go up when the hot and dry weather gets here...but it will also be more work and for some things more skill to get a crop then.

For the seed germination....its been really cold at night and this might be inhibiting germination. I've been planting a legume green manure crop just about every month to raise seed for later planting and back in Sept, Oct, and Nov when the weather was warm, the first sprouts would be up after just 36 hours while one of my recent plantings took about 8 days for emergence and I'm pretty sure that the difference is soil temperature. I'm wondering if this could be affecting your attempts.

Chownah

If we assume the hot season in the North and Issan begins in March and the rainy season begins in May, it only gives 3 months for prices to really rise. I'll probably get shot down for this but I wonder about the commercial viability of makhua.

Thanks for passing on the info DV.

Sounds like the rubber tits are the way to go.

Is there any reason why these couldn't be fitted to the 3" black flexible pipe ? wall to thick ?

Anyway I have other questions/ideas but I will go & open an irrigation thread so as not to hijack the Makua any further.

Pond Life

Tim asks, exactly what type of black tubing are you talking about?

If it is the stuff that "lays flat" when it has no water in it, then no you cannot insert anything through the sidewall because of the flexibility. However, if it is the "flexible" black tubing that is made out of pvc or plastic which retains its circular shape when empty, then yes, you can insert fittings through the sidewall, no problem.

Are you perhaps talking about this second type of tubing?

D.V.

Paulsmithson

He's doing fine, thankyou for asking. All tubes and other support equipment is off him now, and he's sitting up. All the metal they stuck in has set well. There is one more op to do, but its nothing big. On Saturday he will be moved off the IC unit to a high dependancy ward. He'll be on that ward till sometime around mid-Feb then anything can happen, but at this rate its looking like he could be back home (Thailand) sometime in March.

pallasaide,

Not makua connected---just how is Tim doing now and when will he be back home.Pass on my best wishes too please

Pond Life, some answers to your questions.

1. What method do you use to connect your 1/2 inch black flexible dripper lines to the 3 inch blue rigid header pipe ? is there a standard off the shelf connector ?

No, no that Tim knows of. He suggests you do one of the following: insert a 3" to 1" tee piece into the 3" pvc pipe and then use a hose clamp to connect the 1/2" black hosing to a section of 1/2" that has been fixed to the 1" end with a 1" to 1/2" adaptor (I think I have got that right, I am not very technically minded on this stuff). You have to use PVC adhesive to fix the 1! stub of pvc to the adaptor that can screw into or glue into the 1" end of the adaptor.

Thats the complicated way. the simple way is to drill a hole (anything aroun 1/2" - 1") into the 3" pvc piping and insert a 1/2" rubber spigot. It looks like a rubbe teat off a babys bottle and you can find them in dairy supply shops. They have a double flange on on end i.e. one parts fits insdie the rigid hose. They are flexible enough to be manipulated to get into the drilled hole. These are basically dairy spares and come in all sorts of sizes, so best get them first and then use you can see exactly what diameter hole to drill. If you are in luck the shop that sells the flexible black tubing for drippers may well also have the custom made "spiggots" to connect the hosing to the rigid pipe, which are usualy made by the same manufacturer as the black tubing. Just that they often dont have them in stock.

2. If youve got to run your supply pipe a long distance. Say 100 m. Would it be cheaper or better to use 3 inch black flexible pipe from a coil rather than lots of 4 m sections of blue plastic joined together ?

Yes and no, problem is how do you connect the flexible dripper tubing to your 3" mainsupply tubing, unless you cut it up into sections (to insert the 3" to 1" t-pieces). But other than that it should be fine.

3. If I try to gravity feed such a system from a big tank with approx 5m elevation (.5 bar, 7 psi) does anyone foresee problems ?

Over what length - 100m per section of balck dripper tubing? No, that should be fine as the flow rates of drippers as spread out over that length of tubing will not result in excessive end pressure drop. Best to get self regulating drippers rated for about 4-8liters per hour, then you should be okay. Okay the plants at the front may get 8 liters and the ones at the end 100m away may get about 6 or 7 litres, but other than for that deviation it wil be just fine.

BTATE

A resource for using greenhouses? Do oyu mean where they can be purchased from and who sells them in Thailand?

Makua will do fine in greenhouses, in fact he says they do bloody well. The advantage the greenhouse gives is protection from pests and instects, and offers a more stablised temp cycle from day to day, so your production sours and your costs drop siginifcantly )other than of course for the capital outlay).

The greenhouses mad ein Thailand and sold as "kits" (or built for you) come in 40 meter lenghts if Tim can recall correctly. They are supplied with ventilation, ususally 2 big ac fans on a humidity and temp controlled switch. They retail (setup and installed) for around B150000 per 40m. The supplier usualy builds aconcreate or brickwall base about 8"-10" high, and onthis the fix the galvanised frame to hold the tranparent PVC sheeting.

You can mix crops, and cantaloupes and tomatoes do excellently together in greenhouses as they are well protected from bugs and grow well in the humidity (keep the fans switched off).

He adds that a beehive located right up against the side of the greenhouse about 2' away from a hole cut and framded into the pvc sheeting will have a huge effect on crop production rates. The bees quickly learn there way into and out of the greenhouse, and the size of the opening does not present much of an entrance for other pests to get in. But don't put the hive inside the greenhouse, as bees dont like it at all, and they tend to start drinking water from the drippers, which you have any fertilsier or other chemicals mived in with the water supply can kill them.

Tim says get hold of Netafim Ltd in Thailand. He can't remember the contact name or the number but says they are on the 5th floor of the TPS building on Pattankarn road in Bangkok. Do a google search or go to Netafims website.

The other company you can contact is ChaiThai Seeds. they have a division that manufactures and supplies greenhouses to vegetable farms. These are the tunnel typ greenhouses whereas the Ntefim ones as far as he recalls are glass and cost about twice as much. But double check because perhaps Netafim also make tunnel type greenhouses.

For Tim

D. V.

Why Chang Mai?

You are likely to save yourself somewhere around B30 000 - B40 000 buying in Bangkok.

The centre for small and medium tractor dealing in Thailand is the main road leading out of Bangkok going up to the North East. Starting about 1mile after the end of the raised freeway going past the old airport, for about 10 miles all the way to the Carlsberg factory on the right hand side of the road, is tractor dealer after tractor, some with as many as 50-100 examples of 2nd hand imported Kubota and Iseki tractors. Many of them with plumbed hydraulics and front end buckets on them, and it is roto-tiller heaven.

However, in Chang Mai you can contact:

Metro Machinary 053-210233 or 053-260629 or 053-260628

You may also wish to consider Yanmar in Kon Kaen 043-245179

For Tim

D.V.

Somtham

He doesn't have much of an idea how the pricing works, and takes what he is given. He has random pricing checks conducted a few times a month, to compare what here is getting paid to what the wholesaler is retailling for, and consistantly he has found the differance to be about 25%-30%.

He has a good relationship with the wholesaler who he has worked with for 12 years.

The buckets will change the economics of the project significantly (your nett will go up significantly)

Somtham

He hasn't a clue what he's getting at the moment. Its the last thing on his mind (hes just dreaming cows!). Ing checks once a week and said last week the price was around B11 per kg. But you must remember only a small part of Tim's makua go to the local fresh market, most of it gets sent in an 8 wheel truck on a daily basis to the main wholesale market in Khon Khaen.

But has had periods when the price is even lower than B6 - 8. He doesnt sell them then, they get given to the cows to eat.

You need to be carefull on this pricing point. If the person who goes to market to get the daily makua price is someone everyone knows is asking on behalf of you, then they may deliberately be told a low price. Tim had this many years ago on several occassions untill he found out it was a setup to try and drive him out of business. Okay, the price does go down low at times and B6 is possible, but it wil go back up within a couple weeks. There is someone round your area who's plants flowered a few weeks back and all their makua are ready for picking.

Supply and demand. If it consistantly stays low, then you need to ask a few questions, because the market traders are not beyond to trying to buy for a little as possible. Send someone to check out the price that is not connected to you.

It will go up, dont worry.

If there is a sustained period of low pricing, Tim has all the flowers on his plants picked off.

Dear Teletiger

Tim asks me to tell you (I am with him at the moment), that their is no fixed fertiliser regime for cane in Thailand as both the varieties and soil conditions vary so much that it needs to be considered on a case by case basis.

But he adds a few practical considerations for you to keep in mind.

The first is a general consideration that is all about logistics. Cane as you know is not a crop that is taken in a pickup to the local market. It requires transportation to a mill for crushing, and unless you have a mill lined up to recieve your crop, you are going to land up stuck in a queue of trucks come harvest time. Some of these trucks land up waiting as much as 3 or 4 days to get unloaded. The logistics of cut cane in Thailand is a problem every year which costs farmers a lot of money and time and can totally mess up your harvesting crew (having to pay them to sit around for days before they can cut and load up the next truck, and then having to deal with an irate truck owner who wants more payment because he has to sit in a queue waiting to be weighed, all of this hassle through no fault of your own but just the way the system works.

It may sound a trivial problem. It is not. It causes big grief every year for cane farmers.

Also keep in mind how far you are from the nearest mill versus what they are offering per ton, as transporters charge by the metric ton x kilometer. It quickly adds up if you are anything more than 5 - 10 km form a mill and can impact significantly on wht you net (prices for cut trash free cane are, like most Thai crops, not very high and margins can are tight)

Also keep in mind that this years coming dry season (if you do plant) is anticipated to be very dry season indeed, much more so then usual. Ask a lot of questions and give careful consideration to using a variety that is drought tolerent, as opposed to just the usualy high yield variety (they usualy rely on good irrigation or rainfall at the right time. Tim listed shortly before his accident somewhere on the forum a list of common Thai cane varities, and some detail on their yield and drought tolerance. He grows around 100 acres of it. Take a look at that list. Speak to cane farmers around you for input on what they intend to grow, the soil they are "setting" in (i.e. planting in), and what fertiliser they use. Your nearby cane farmers can be an invaluble source of practical information.

You will do well to do some reading up on good "sets" from bad "sets". "Sets" are the segments of cane planted to grow the crop from. In Thailand you get "sets" and you get "sets", and the usual Thai caveat emptor applies. When it comes to selecting the "sets" for whatever variety you decide to cultivate, it will pay to get an exprianced opinion on what you are been offered, so you dont get sold some junk.

AS others have already said, you land cost is quite reasonable. Your big costs wil come with harvesting and transport versus what you get paid, which if you get it right has the potential to be good as the first harvest for 2007/2008 is expected to be low (so the price is going to go up).

for Tim

D.V.

Hello Somtham

Without seeing the field and the “slope” it is hard to judge exactly what drainage is required.

Berms or building up soil around the base of the crop with row crops like makua can be a case of trading one problem off for another.

There are some considerations (long winded but hopefully giving you a good insight to as many different options as possible, and the issues associated with each).

The root structure of Makua is shallow and spread out to start with, the higher the moisture content of the soil the shallower will be the roots as they will grow like this to avoid water logging. This means that makua planted in raised beds will soon have their roots been exposed (through the side of the raised bed). The problem will be made worse as the soil compacts over time and with rainfall (and of course the older the plant becomes the more spread out will be the roots). An unusually large downpour of rain can wash down a lot of the soil packed around the plant, then exposing more roots and causing the plants to lean or fall over.

A second consideration is that as the crop is harvested daily, many workers are walking up and down each row every day. Not so much a problem with a crop that is picked once or twice a month, but with it occurring every day the built up soil is going to get trampled (however much care is taken, this will happen).

Come the dry season, you will find you will be having to irrigate SO MUCH more because of the increased surface area around the plants open to drying out (evaporation) and capillary effect under gravity (the tendency of the water to soak through to the land beneath).

In theory building up the soil can be a solution, in practise you will find the extra considerations it introduces are likely to negate what it offered in the first place.

There are though scenarios in which building up the soil around the base of the plants would be a viable (indeed very good) solution. That is if you had laid down a roll of black plastic sheeting over the built up bed before you planted the seedlings (through a small hole pierced through the plastic). Tim can’t remember if he mentioned this as a method, but says next to the bucket method, this has to be a good way of going about it.

The edges of the plastic can be covered with loose soil to hold them down. Using this method means you have to of course use drippers (which need to be laid down before you lay the plastic sheeting down).

The 2 good advantages this offers are: an almost total elimination of weeds and grass growing around the makua plants (so long as black plastic is used there will be insufficient sunlight to sustain photosynthesis and they will die within a day or 2 of germinating. So land maintenance (labour) is reduced to less than a quarter of what it currently is (labour is the single biggest expense in the long run, and anything down at the start to cut future aniticipated labour costs pays off handsomely). The second advantage is the reduction it offers in required irrigation and the cost of fuel (whether it is electricity or diesel), as evaporation is reduced enormously. The third advantage is the reduction in insect damage from worms and other ground insects. They don’t like settling down in soil underneath plastic (because of heat in the daytime).

But like all systems, this too is not perfect. Again, with workers walking up and down the rows each day it is only a matter of time before someone sticks their foot through the plastic sheeting (not to much of a problem, and nothing a bit of spray on adhesive and piece of black plastic cant sort out).

Still, on balance, it his in his opinion one of the best ways of growing flieds of makua after planting in buckets. Remember if you do then it is important to place the drippers right up near the near hole where the makua seedlings are planted. This gives easy access to changing any if they get blocked without having to make additional holes in the plastic.

Try one or 2 rows out using this method. You will notice the seedlings will grow about 20-30% faster and a lot larger over the same amount of time. Why? Firstly, because moisture tension in the soil does not fluctuate as much,and secondly the seedlings are not competing with grass and weeds for soil nutrient content, which usualy use up about 40%-60% of whatever fertiliser or nutirent is in the soil.

Remember as well (this is important) to build up each row or strip of soil to about 15”-20” height and leave it to settle (under the daily sprinkler irrigation) for about 3 weeks. This gives the soil time to settle and compact (which it will do naturally in any case). The advantage to doing this now and not planting the seedlings straight away, is that if you were to cover it with the plastic sheeting immediately you will find that after about 3 weeks to a month the plastic will be “loose” and flapping around a lot (because the soil has settled). So give the soil a few weeks to settle before covering (don't worry about the weeds or grass that grow in that period of time, they'll die off within a couple days of been covered with plastic).

Another consideration here (if you cover the rows with a roll of plastic) is not to have them running perpendicular to the land slope (across the land slope). They should run at an angle, any angle that gives around 3-5 degree slope. This will allow excess rainfall in the wet season to run off (slowly) without causing soil erosion between the rows. In fact you may even wish to lay down a seperate strip of plastic between each row and covering it with stone chip. You will have perfect run off and no matter how heavy the rain and zero erosion. Using this method rows can now without risk of erosion while still ensuring all excess run off, no mud, no soil damage, no water logging, and next to zero land maintenance.

Capital outlay, yes. But in the long term what it saves is recouped. With that all said, you will be thinking, why don’t I just go to buckets. And you are right. Tim is just trying to share with you different practical options that will go towards solving water logging problems, but solve it you are going to have to do one way or the other.

The last and probably the easiest and most practical method to address water logging (and if you have any water logging now at this time of the year, you can be absolutely 100% certain you will have a big problem with those same patches come the rain later this year) would be to dig 2 drainage trenches.

The first one should be dug across the field about half way, and the second one should be dug at the bottom of the field (meaning the lowest point). They must be dug across the slope, not with the slope irrespective of the row angles). What you have currently described as been in place is no where near what is required to drain your field. No where near.

The trenches will have to be a good 2’ or so wide and about 5’ deep. Remember, unless the water in the soil below the surface cannot drain away, then the water above it (at root level) has no-where to go, and that is what causes the root zone to become waterlogged. So the trenches should be really deep, 5’ or so. If there is no-where for the water to run out of the drainage trench then a submersible pump should used to drain out the ditch (to the kalong) when it starts filling. You will be amazed just how much water flows into these trenches in the wet season and how quickly they fill up. Tim has a few trenches dug to roughly the same dimensions, and about 130' long. It is not uncommon in the wet season for him to drain out the equivalent of 50 tons of water per week per trench! Each of those trnechs would be draining he reackons about 2 to 3 acres of land at most.

Here is something else you may wish to consider, that does involve building up the soil, and which will work reliably in the long run. Really all it involves is supporting the side of the built up soil and to do that you simply use planks of wood laid down each side of the soil. They can be placed about 15” apart and the top edge of the plank should be about 8” (or more) above the surrounding ground level. This will reliably contain the soil preventing it from washing down and exposing roots, and if you wish to use palstic as well, well then you can tuck the sides of the plastic down the side of the plank. Perfect! (no waterlogging, no weeding and no insects getting into the soil, little to zero ground maintenance, redcued irrigation costs) Of course the problem here is the capital outlay.

Another possibility along the bucket method is to use large tins. Anything with a volume of 10 litres or more should work. They can be obtained for next to nothing from scrap yards (about Baht10 each Tim thinks). Small, yes, but you’d be surprised, with the correct soil and fertiliser regime, it is possible to get the makua plant to grow to same size as it would in the ground.

The above are all considerations to address drainage. Building up the soil around the plant would not be Tim’s first option without someway of supporting the sides and protecting the roots from exposure. But with support and covering, why not. Failing this you are going to be bogged down literally, in the wet season with both maintenance and damage caused by workers constantly walking up and down the rows each day. BUt whatever you decide on, if you have water logging now, you are going to have a problem on your hands come the rains in June, July and August, so youmust give some thought to how it is going to be dealt with. Drainage trenches would be your best option from a cost point of view. Building up the soil, and supporting the edges would be a good option as not only will it reduce water logging, if done properly at a row angle you will achieve good run off and significantly reduced long term labour and irrigation costs. And then of course their is the bucket or tin option, in which case what happens on the ground becomes a complete non-issue.

best Regards - for Tim

D.V.

Hello Somtham

Tim reackons if you are going around bucket and cup in hand to apply, then 200ml will be fine.

It is best applied to dry soil (i.e. before you switch on your sprinkler system), so that it soaks in well. Then about half an hour later you can switch on your sprinklers. However, if you have already sprayed, then there is little point in applying now for at least another month or so.

If you are spraying, then below is the sort of sprayer you are best off using. It is a mist type sprayer using a blast of air to sprayer a fine mist right into the thick foilage. The coverage it gives is far more comprehensive then a convetional type sprayer which do not tend to penetrate foilage very well. In the process to uses the insecticide much more efficiently (about half the amount of a conventional sprayer for the same amount of area).

Honda market a model in Thailand that costs something like $100 -$150.

They also last longer because they have a much simplified high pressure system, and are more forgiving when abused by labourers who dont maintain equipment properly!

This morning, for what it worth, independant "confirmation". Tim had a friend from John Deere Ag visit him (as you may know he was part of the John Deere team in South East Asia many years ago). He looked at the leaf photos and said straight away "water" (i.e. excess).

What variety of EW seeds have you planted -Tiger/Stripe? Dont forget to put the netting up while they grow in the seed trays, and leave them in the seed tray till they are a good 15"-20" high. About 5 days before you transplant them to the field give each seedling a good dose of K/Zeon. Just flood each tray with a couple pints of mix and let it soak in (you cant overdose them with K/Zeon). It will keep the insects off for the first few weeks while they establish themselves in the field.

For Tim

D.V.

Somtham

K/Zeon will work with any fruit or vegetable plant, and will deal with just about any pest insect.

It is the only insecticide Tim uses. It works by switching off part of the nerve and sensory system of the insect which tells it that it is thirsty and must drink water (which they do by way of eating your crop). They can absorb it through their skin or shell directly or through ingestion by way of eating a plant that has already absorbed it systemically. I think I am conveying this correctly. Anyway. they stop eating and die of dehydration over a period of about 24hrs.

But as you will have discovered, it is not the cheapest insecticide. It's up with the best 5 avaliable anywhere in the world but what makes it expensive is its mode of action, which is not insect selective. Tim reccomended it because it would save you having to store different insecticides and having to apply different insecticides at different times.

Specifically, if you have a problem with just one type of insect and nothing else, you could probably deal with that insect with a far cheaper insecticide that is more specific. The potential downside is that if something else comes along 2 or 3 weeks later you may then have to apply insecticide all over again, and quite possibly a different type of insecticide.

Another potential problem is multiple resistance, not so much an issue over the life of a plant like vegetables but certainly in the case of fruit trees where the application of an insecticide doesn't always kill all stages of the the target insect at the time application.

The mode of action described above in the case of K/Zeon is relatively new for an insecticide. A specific consideration in its developement at a biochemical level was the slowness of animals to adapt (develope resistance) at a nerve level. A lot of study has been put into watching for resistance developement to Karate/Z by insects. Non of usual indicators have yet been identified.

How often should you have to apply it?

In theory as far as Tim recalls it is something like 8-10weeks, but in practise he has never had to use it more than 2 or 3 times a year.

By far the best way to apply it is through drippers straight into the ground and root system. it takes 2 or 3 days to get sucked up and disperse throughout the plant, but the advantage is that it deals with anything living in or on the plant and getting to it via the roots or stems, as well as leaves and fruit (worms and boring insects). Its a much quicker action if sprayed (overnight to 36hrs), but then its dispersal into new growth over the next 3-6 weeks is not as comprehensive as it is through the roots.

How are you buying your K/Zeon, is it in granular or liquid form?

You can mix it as much as 25%-20% below reccomended concentration and it will be just as effective.

D.V.

Waterbuffalofarm

You may also wish to try and chase up an Indian company called DEP AGROMACHINES. They make a range of forage and crop processors, a picture of one is shown below and may be sutiable. They have an agent somewhere in Bangkok.

The unit can be driven by a small diesel engine and the addition of a pair of rollers to crush the cane stalks and corn cobs would be beneficial

Sotham

Tim says if you want a job, let him know: he did not realise you had gone to that effort and says he is impressed with what you have done and the effort you put into it. There is no need to change anything in the layout and there is no need to change the pressure. The answer is quite simply: too much water.

You are never going to be able to apply the exact right amount of water. Its impossible and frankly there is little to be gained from doing so, but you can apply too much or too little and from what you have side about the the soil density and the mositure content versus when that test was done over when you last irrigated, his opinion is that you can try the following.

Irrigate once a day early evening or sunset, and reduce the irrigation time down to 10-15min.

Give time for everything to "settle" and then run the mositure again after 3 or 4 days. Do it one morning (meaning you have allowed over night for the water to soak in)

You are looking for something around 12 - 15% by weight at around 10cm depth.

If it's anything over 16% then knock 2 or 3 minutes off the irrigation time, and irrigate at the reduced time schedule for another 3 or 4 days, and then repeapt the mositure test. Likewise, if its too, dry add a couple minutes to the watering time.

Soil water tension fluctuates considerably in sandy type soil. Immeidatly after irrigation it is can be 100% saturated, but it will drop rapidly as the water disperses. The oppisite is true of course for clay type soils. The objective becomes trying to find as good a balance as possible. Try keeping a x, y graph, x (vertical) been % and y (horizontal) been days.

Draw a horizontal line across the graph and mark that as 12-15% and along the bottom draw a set of equally spaced vertical lines for every 3 days.

Divide the space above the horizontal line into about 10 eqally spaced lighter lines and do the same below the main line.

Then mark the graph every 3days as you do the moisture.

If you are willing to go to the effort of keeping keeping a second graph (total pump liters/surface area) you will quickly build up a very accurate picture of exactly how much water is going into the soil and just what it is doing for the plants.

May sound OTT, but you will look back on it next year and be really glad you done it. If becomes a very valuable "tool" from dry season to wet season.

Someone else commented that a bit of stress on the plants wont do them much harm. That is correct, it wont do them much harm, but it will effect your crop yield in the long run.

There is no question about how well you have set it up, nows the time to start fine tuning it to get the best out of it.

Please keep Tim posted, but dont feel under pressure to rush anything, especially when it comes to fine tuning the irrigation. It will leads to errors and having to start all over again. You are well on the way to making a success of it.

Tim207, how is your Makua project coming on?

You tried potatoes as well did you not?

What variety and how have you planted them?

There is a good local market for potatoes, if you can get them to grow, which in Thailand on any scale seems to be successful only in the highland areas? Tim tried once but despite following everything to the book it was a complete faliure. He done it all exactly how he was advised but the one thing he could not control was the climate, and the temperature (not the rainfall) ruined the project.

D.V.

Somtham

Tim says he knows little about chillies other than they are quite okay to "inter-row" with makua.

No, does not belive the soil is too loose. Just doesn't know why some have fallen over, but he wants to know this.

How have you laid your sprinklers out?

What pressure are they running at?

How much water per hour does each sprinkler deliver?

Keep it simple, he is not up to doing all sorts of fancy calculations, just rough answers for the above will be fine.

Tim thinks you might be over watering in some places and underwatering in others, and that what you have been told by the Thai people who have commented may be correct. This is almost certain if the sprinkler layout pattern is not exactly as the manufacturer suggests for the water pressure they are been used at, and even if it is done exactly like the manufacturer suggests, in reality they still do not work properly and will be almost certainly deliverying a lot of water in the last 25%-30% of the radius and less inside closer to the sprinkler. That means if you have a full radius overlap with another sprinkler then you will be getting bad distribution patterns.

A simple way to check water distribution is to take some containers with a big opening (plastic drums cut down to about 6" high) and to spread them out on the field.

1. The first test is a radius test. Place 1 at 2 meters from the sprinkler one, one about half way across the radius and one near the end of the throw. Run your sprinklers as normal and then go and collect the water from each drum and see by how much it differs. All 3 should be within about 10%-15%.

2. Next day repeat the test using a different sprinkler, and then a gain another day using another sprinkler at a different location, but keeping the same distances from the sprinkler each time.

When thats done you may wish to try it at different distances from the sprinkler.

The more variations you try, the more accuarte will be your graph.

There is just one problem. He reackons that nearly all sprinklers in Thailand are run below the correct working pressure, and there is nothing that can be done to correct distrabution patterns if a spinrkler is run at a low a pressure. The only thing to do then is to put in a valave and shut off a few sprinklers and run half for a certain amount of time, shut them off and run the other half.

Tim says you should know the total area of the land your sprinklers are distributing water over, how many sprinbklers you have and how much water is in each drum after each watering. If the amounts are within 10%-15% then you can work out an average per square meter over time and convert to mm or ml precipertation.

Remember your high-school math. Drums are round so you will need to convert the surface area of a circle to how many times it fits into the field surface area. He says "basic" but admitts he wouldnt have a clue how to calculate it at the moment.

In summary what he wants you to establish is within about 10% just how much water the field is getting and how well is it spread.

Here is another trick to do in the morning before you switch on a sprinkler.

Dig a small hole 2" or 3" anywhere in the field and take out about 100grams of soil. Put it in a bowl and weigh it (know the weight of the bowl before hand. You want exactly 100grams of soil. Do not pack it tight leave it loose.

Put the bowl in a micro wave at low heat for a botu 10 minutes to evapourate the moisture from the soil. Take it out and reweigh. Repeat the exercise (always at low heat) untill the weight ceases to drop.

Compare the before and after weights. If you started with exactly 100grams you will be able to calculate the mositure percentage level of the soil at root level by weight.

Depedning on the density of the soil as little as 10% could mean saturation or as much as 80% could mean dry. By weight is relative to soil density, so the question then is what type of soil are your makua plants planted in? Is it sandy, is it laomy, is it clayish, is it stoney, is it dark or light.

The subject gets complicated and the above is a very basic look at a subject that can be discussed for hours with all sorts of factors to qualify it, but having an idea of the soil type and how much water is in it before watering wil give a pretty good idea if too much water is been applied.

If there is a relationship between the position of the plants with leaves like those in the photos you have sent and the results of the above experiment (water distrabution) then that is almost certainly the problem. But it is not distribution or too much water per say. It is because a lot of water is on the actual leaves and could be encouraging bacteriual of fungus growth.

It mean mean changing the position of the sprinklers, the sprinkler nozzel or the pressure they are run at.

The problem with sprinklers, even if they are laid out perfectly, is that they water the whole field. About 80% of the water that hits the ground gets used up by grass and weeds and only about 20% feeds the crop. Nothing you can do about that.

If you go through the above you will achieve to things: get some insight into just how good or bad the water distribution is, and establsih if there is a relationship between the areas which receive a lot of water and the areas which have plants with the leaf patterns you have shown.

Good luck, and pleas keep him posted.

For Tim

D.Valentine

I members, I didnt upload the correct pictures, so had to take them off and do them again. Here they are, but in the wrong order.

The middle picture should be at the end